How To Grow & Retain 20" Of 4c Hair

Sharpened

A fleck on His Sword
I had hoped the LOIS system would gain traction when it came out, but it was too complicated for practical use. It dealt with strand shape and texture, rather than curl size:

What You Need to Know about the L.O.I.S. Hair Typing System


Before that, texture was placed in three catagories: cottony, silky, or coarse. I felt left out because my hair was none of that. When the creator came up with spongy (high sheen, low shine, high frizz), I jumped out of my chair, "YES, that is my hair!" Nothing became of it though; everyone was still focued on curl shape and size, until the porosity idea came to fruition.

Prior to oil rinsing, I had no definition, wet or dry, outside of rare, fizzy clumps hidden in the bush. I am definitely not a 4a. Nap85 can still get some movement in her hair; I cannot.
 

Mahogony7

Well-Known Member
Meh. This thread just proves why I don't like hair typing. At least y'all are in hair discussing and not as bold as people in her YouTube comments telling her she's not whatever type because of this and that.

Now if her hair were straight and she was saying it was beyond thick. I'd definitely be side eyeing her real
strong.

But we should just enjoy her hair and the techniques that she shares. Her hair is thick and luscious.

She does have a braid out video as well
 

sweethair

Well-Known Member
I stand corrected I will add her braidout pics. But the comments saying her hair is shiny because its healthy and moisturized makes it seem like someone with cottony hair "4c" didn't get the same results because it dry and unhealthy. As mentioned by snoop and another poster 4c cottony hair is not the same as 4c silky hair that napp queen says she has. She has a smoothness to her hair. It like how thick hair vs fine hair are totally different. You can use the same products and have different results. The same can be said for Silky hair vs cottony hair. If I followed her tutorial use same products in my hair it would look like naturally high, cotton and more textured.

Meh. This thread just proves why I don't like hair typing. At least y'all are in hair discussing and not as bold as people in her YouTube comments telling her she's not whatever type because of this and that.

Now if her hair were straight and she was saying it was beyond thick. I'd definitely be side eyeing her real
strong.

But we should just enjoy her hair and the techniques that she shares. Her hair is thick and luscious.

She does have a braid out video as well
 
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faithVA

Well-Known Member
I had hoped the LOIS system would gain traction when it came out, but it was too complicated for practical use. It dealt with strand shape and texture, rather than curl size:

What You Need to Know about the L.O.I.S. Hair Typing System


Before that, texture was placed in three catagories: cottony, silky, or coarse. I felt left out because my hair was none of that. When the creator came up with spongy (high sheen, low shine, high frizz), I jumped out of my chair, "YES, that is my hair!" Nothing became of it though; everyone was still focued on curl shape and size, until the porosity idea came to fruition.

Prior to oil rinsing, I had no definition, wet or dry, outside of rare, fizzy clumps hidden in the bush. I am definitely not a 4a. Nap85 can still get some movement in her hair; I cannot.
Has oil rinsing helped you?
 

YvetteWithJoy

On break
I had hoped the LOIS system would gain traction when it came out, but it was too complicated for practical use. It dealt with strand shape and texture, rather than curl size:

What You Need to Know about the L.O.I.S. Hair Typing System


Before that, texture was placed in three catagories: cottony, silky, or coarse. I felt left out because my hair was none of that. When the creator came up with spongy (high sheen, low shine, high frizz), I jumped out of my chair, "YES, that is my hair!" Nothing became of it though; everyone was still focued on curl shape and size, until the porosity idea came to fruition.

Prior to oil rinsing, I had no definition, wet or dry, outside of rare, fizzy clumps hidden in the bush. I am definitely not a 4a. Nap85 can still get some movement in her hair; I cannot.

Thanks for sharing. I like LOIS. Question: S seems to indicate waviness. That doesn't differentiate between 4b, 3a, etc. It seems like there'd be people with very different hair all able to claim S, for example. Not necessarily a bad thing, I don't guess.
 

Tefnut

Well-Known Member
I agree with you about no fitting into the "cottony, silky or coarse" category.

TBH, this categorization is very limiting and off because Afro hair can be silky and coarse or coarse and cottony.

I know coarse= kinky in the black community but the word is used improperly. If Afro textured hair were actually coarse, the strands would be strong enough to withstand all of the things we enjoy doing with our hair. I would said "Asian" hair is actually coarse (think Chinese, Korean, etc.) and one of the reasons its used for hair extensions.

I think the idea of Afro hair as coarse has contributed to why some black people didn't have longer hair. People would handle Afro hair roughly because it was considered coarse and unruly and needed to be tamed. They'd rip through a person's head because they believed it could take it. Now that people are acknowledging that our strands are actually fine, they can handle them gentler and give them the patience and love they actually need.

Re-reading your post reminds me why the hair typing systems is limiting. Like you said, your hair (4a?) differs from Napp85's 4a (I think her strands resemble a 3c/4a mix). Hair typing serves general purposes (looking for extension hair and even mimicking hair styles) but everyone doesn't neatly fit into each group. Some people may be 2d, 3d or 4d. And there's only type one of type 1. What about type 1, 1b or 1c? Visit any type of hair board and Asian men and women (Chinese, Korean, etc.) will discuss how their straight hair differs from "Caucasian" straight hair.

ETA: I see Andre's original chart has variations of type 1 hair but only 2 types of 4 hair, lol. Man, if you're going to copy the chart, give type 1 people some options. They got feelings too! :lachen:(Seriously, check out Asian hair boards, arguing about their hair sucks and others talking about them being westernized)

I had hoped the LOIS system would gain traction when it came out, but it was too complicated for practical use. It dealt with strand shape and texture, rather than curl size:

What You Need to Know about the L.O.I.S. Hair Typing System


Before that, texture was placed in three catagories: cottony, silky, or coarse. I felt left out because my hair was none of that. When the creator came up with spongy (high sheen, low shine, high frizz), I jumped out of my chair, "YES, that is my hair!" Nothing became of it though; everyone was still focued on curl shape and size, until the porosity idea came to fruition.

Prior to oil rinsing, I had no definition, wet or dry, outside of rare, fizzy clumps hidden in the bush. I am definitely not a 4a. Nap85 can still get some movement in her hair; I cannot.
 
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Sharpened

A fleck on His Sword
Has oil rinsing helped you?
My coils began to clump and retain moisture better. When I decided to just do oil rinsing as my primary method of hair maintenance, my hair improved even more, no need for conditioner and my mysterious flaking issue disappeared. Come to find out most fatty alcohols come from coconut oil, which I am highly allergic to. Oil washing with castor oil saved me from permanent TWA-land, seriously.
 

MilkChocolateOne

Well-Known Member
I had hoped the LOIS system would gain traction when it came out, but it was too complicated for practical use. It dealt with strand shape and texture, rather than curl size:

What You Need to Know about the L.O.I.S. Hair Typing System


Before that, texture was placed in three catagories: cottony, silky, or coarse. I felt left out because my hair was none of that. When the creator came up with spongy (high sheen, low shine, high frizz), I jumped out of my chair, "YES, that is my hair!" Nothing became of it though; everyone was still focued on curl shape and size, until the porosity idea came to fruition.

Prior to oil rinsing, I had no definition, wet or dry, outside of rare, fizzy clumps hidden in the bush. I am definitely not a 4a. Nap85 can still get some movement in her hair; I cannot.

I consider your hair 4a too. Andre's limited system talks about curl shape and size. I think there is also a range of sizes within the types. I think many people confuse texture and curl size. Silky 4s are often told they are type 3. Coarse/kinky 3s are told they are type 4. Also density and individual strand size also make a difference in how hair looks and behaves. Clumping is also a factor too. I think true 4c hair should have it's own number, type 5. It doesn't look or behave like type 4a or 4b hair no matter how moisturized it is. There are a couple if gray areas too.
 

sweethair

Well-Known Member
@Tefnut

100% agree. People treat my fine hair really ruff. They just see how tightly coiled it is and rip through it. I'm just thankful I found my hair twin dephne. Her latest wash video I noticed her coils are more elongated. That's because shes been using heat regularly. Its affected her hair some will say it's damage but when your hair is so fine and you flat iron it regularly it's going to change your hair. I still think it beautiful and healthy.

Napp queen has beautiful curly and coiled silky hair. I just don't want someone with cottony fine tightly coiled hair thinking their hair is damaged or dry because it doesn't look like napp queens braidout or rollerset.
 
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Saludable84

Better Late Than Ugly
Thanks for sharing. I like LOIS. Question: S seems to indicate waviness. That doesn't differentiate between 4b, 3a, etc. It seems like there'd be people with very different hair all able to claim S, for example. Not necessarily a bad thing, I don't guess.

I prefer the LOIS system because it gets my hair exactly, however, like @Sharpened said it never really caught too much attention.

The thing with LOIS is that it's going by strand shape regardless of size. So, technically, if 4c has small ringlets, it may be in the same category as 3c, even though 3c is curly hair. Wouldn't matter the size of the ringlet. A 4A with waves could be similar to 3a/b because it may still be wavy, even if looser.

LOIS is more complicated. It goes by curl, sheen, shine, texture. So when you refer to hair typing, it's a signature type, regardless of mix (4A for example) but with LOIS, there are like 4 different factors. So, you would have to find someone with all 4 types to match just you.
 

NICOLETHENUMBERONE

Well-Known Member
@snoop
Silky vs cottony
You hit the nail on the head!!!

That's what I was trying to get across. Napp queen has a silkiness to her hair texture. I still believe her texture is looser then my hair preteatment. I see what y'all are saying maybe she has multiple Textures on her head. but the other YouTubers that have cottony hair. They have healthy waist-length hair but they don't have that silkiness/shine. Napp queen doesn't have any braidouts on her YouTube. But her braids out/roller set you can see the silkiness of her hair.
***Edited added her braidout pic

Napp queens hair is amazing! Top 3 best hair I've seen on YouTube. But she doesn't have the same texture as the ladies in the braidouts/twistout
View attachment 393039
View attachment 393065
Vs
View attachment 393041 View attachment 393043
I used to think that maybe the first posters hair was more healthy than the latter two. But your hair can be cottony and still be healthy. So, do you think the first woman has 4c hair? I thought by the texture (silkiness) it would be 4b or a?

ETA: I just read one of your responses to Tefn u t and you answered my questions.
 

YvetteWithJoy

On break
I consider your hair 4a too. Andre's limited system talks about curl shape and size. I think there is also a range of sizes within the types. I think many people confuse texture and curl size. Silky 4s are often told they are type 3. Coarse/kinky 3s are told they are type 4. Also density and individual strand size also make a difference in how hair looks and behaves. Clumping is also a factor too. I think true 4c hair should have it's own number, type 5. It doesn't look or behave like type 4a or 4b hair no matter how moisturized it is. There are a couple if gray areas too.

Yessss! I so agree with the bolded. I think that's where a LOT of the confusion comes from. I have coily O's the diameter of the spring in a pen, perhaps just slightly larger. When it is dry/unhealthy, it has no definition and looks cottony. I thought I was 4c for the longest. When hydrated, it's not silky, and it's not cottony. I guess it's springy like @Sharpened mentioned??? I dunno.

I think hair type is useful when it comes to getting help with styling and detangling. Otherwise, I feel it's more helpful to understand your hair's porosity and understand that you can have some hipo areas, some normpo areas, and some lowpo areas.

When people get irritated with newbies who function on hair typing, I wonder if they realize that they/we are struggling with handling our hair, and that curl size and shape matters at least SOME when it comes to the healthy handling of one's hair.
 

Saludable84

Better Late Than Ugly
When people get irritated with newbies who function on hair typing, I wonder if they realize that they/we are struggling with handling our hair, and that curl size and shape matters at least SOME when it comes to the healthy handling of one's hair.

Every newbie is different but sometimes the problem is that some don't take the time to learn their hair and just want products and miracle solutions. You wanna use this and you want to achieve that, but learn what your hair can handle and cannot handle. When you don't take the time to at least learn the basics of your hair, you continue to make the same mistakes.

Before I narrowed down my hair type, I referred to the LOIS system. That system is what I can attribute to my retention and knowing my hair. It's a complicated system but very broken down. You read it correctly and it will tell you how to handle your hair based on factors beyond hair type. Before coming to the conclusion I'm 4A, I learned that I'm majority S with some O, wiry (high sheen and low shine, low porosity), thick strands and course (dense).

Based on your post, you may have thready hair, which is likely to be porous, needs pH balanced conditioners, major sealing, is subject to constant moisture lost and prone to frizz. Your S curls can handle manipulation but the other factors don't allow it unless their controlled.

Curl size and shape can only get you but so far.
 

MilkChocolateOne

Well-Known Member
I think hair type is useful when it comes to getting help with styling and detangling. Otherwise, I feel it's more helpful to understand your hair's porosity and understand that you can have some hipo areas, some normpo areas, and some lowpo areas.

When people get irritated with newbies who function on hair typing, I wonder if they realize that they/we are struggling with handling our hair, and that curl size and shape matters at least SOME when it comes to the healthy handling of one's hair.

I agree.
 

YvetteWithJoy

On break
Every newbie is different but sometimes the problem is that some don't take the time to learn their hair and just want products and miracle solutions. You wanna use this and you want to achieve that, but learn what your hair can handle and cannot handle. When you don't take the time to at least learn the basics of your hair, you continue to make the same mistakes.

Before I narrowed down my hair type, I referred to the LOIS system. That system is what I can attribute to my retention and knowing my hair. It's a complicated system but very broken down. You read it correctly and it will tell you how to handle your hair based on factors beyond hair type. Before coming to the conclusion I'm 4A, I learned that I'm majority S with some O, wiry (high sheen and low shine, low porosity), thick strands and course (dense).

Based on your post, you may have thready hair, which is likely to be porous, needs pH balanced conditioners, major sealing, is subject to constant moisture lost and prone to frizz. Your S curls can handle manipulation but the other factors don't allow it unless their controlled.

Curl size and shape can only get you but so far.

When I started out trying to fix my troubles with my hair, I didn't even have a framework for anything outside of trying different products. I wore my hair relaxed for 30+ years and never heard or read a thing about porosity, protein, protein-moisture balance, humectants, and on and on. The only thing I knew was "Well, that product didn't work. Let me try another one, because this shouldn't be this hard."

I will never assume a newbie doesn't want to take the time to at least learn the basics of her hair and is only into quick fixes . . . not even if I see her purchasing and purchasing.

I just found a blog about purchasing based on ingredients and nothing else. I'm sure that is obvious to most, but I was like, "Ahhhhhhh." Lol!

Thanks for all of your help, Saludable.
 

MilkChocolateOne

Well-Known Member
Every newbie is different but sometimes the problem is that some don't take the time to learn their hair and just want products and miracle solutions. You wanna use this and you want to achieve that, but learn what your hair can handle and cannot handle. When you don't take the time to at least learn the basics of your hair, you continue to make the same mistakes.



Curl size and shape can only get you but so far.


I agree with this too. I belong to a children's hair care group and 70% of the mothers aren't putting in the effort to learn how to take care of their children's hair. They skip past the advice about washing, detangling, conditioning, moisturizing, low tension hairstyles, etc.. All they want to know is what kind of product/concoction they can slather on their children's scalps to make it grow. or what product they can use to make their children's hair curly. I tried explaining the hair growth cycle and they key to longer hair is retention but they ignore it and anyone else that offers practical advice. I tried explaining to a mom that no product will make cottony kinky coils magically transform into large silky ringlets. they just buy wild growth oil and jbco and slather onto their children's scalps. no regular washing/conditioning, just oily scalps with dry hair.
 

Saludable84

Better Late Than Ugly
I agree with this too. I belong to a children's hair care group and 70% of the mothers aren't putting in the effort to learn how to take care of their children's hair. They skip past the advice about washing, detangling, conditioning, moisturizing, low tension hairstyles, etc.. All they want to know is what kind of product/concoction they can slather on their children's scalps to make it grow. or what product they can use to make their children's hair curly. I tried explaining the hair growth cycle and they key to longer hair is retention but they ignore it and anyone else that offers practical advice. I tried explaining to a mom that no product will make cottony kinky coils magically transform into large silky ringlets. they just buy wild growth oil and jbco and slather onto their children's scalps. no regular washing/conditioning, just oily scalps with dry hair.

I belong to a few hair groups. I've had people post a picture and I tell them what's wrong and they insist on trying new products. It's more than just products.

I know it seems tedious at first, but that little bit of patience will get you so far. I understand most of us are going natural later in life, but that information can still help others. I made my cousin, a friend and a coworker learn theirs and their children's hair before helping them with anything and while it seems mean, it helped them. If they aren't willing to learn, you're speaking to deaf ears.

And I had the same issue with my mother. Girl.... it was like beating a dead horse for a while. I broke through, but only for mother.
 

snoop

Well-Known Member
Yessss! I so agree with the bolded. I think that's where a LOT of the confusion comes from. I have coily O's the diameter of the spring in a pen, perhaps just slightly larger. When it is dry/unhealthy, it has no definition and looks cottony. I thought I was 4c for the longest. When hydrated, it's not silky, and it's not cottony. I guess it's springy like @Sharpened mentioned??? I dunno.

I think hair type is useful when it comes to getting help with styling and detangling. Otherwise, I feel it's more helpful to understand your hair's porosity and understand that you can have some hipo areas, some normpo areas, and some lowpo areas.

When people get irritated with newbies who function on hair typing, I wonder if they realize that they/we are struggling with handling our hair, and that curl size and shape matters at least SOME when it comes to the healthy handling of one's hair.

I would just caution against the assumption that because it feels dry that it's unhealthy. When I first went natural, Naptural85 was the first YouTuber that I followed. I expected that with proper care that my hair was going to be as juicy and shiny as hers. Then I came across something that said that not only would our 4c hair not hold that shine (at least not necessarily) but that it may not feel that moist, even when moisturized. Of course I ignored this and had to learn the hard way.

Dealing with my hair in twists and primarily finger detangling, I find that because my hair isn't uniform (ie combed) it gives the illusion of harder dryer hair than when I detangle with a comb and all of the kinks are smoothed out.

My hair has been pretty healthy but only in the last year have I been able to tell by touch when it's really retaining moisture. Someone (on this board?) once said that when your hair is holding moisture, it will feel cool to the touch. I get that now.

Sorry to go off topic...
 

snoop

Well-Known Member
This is an interesting discussion. What would you all label this type as? View attachment 393107View attachment 393109View attachment 393111View attachment 393113

Maybe 4a or 4b. It'shard to tell if those are real zigzags or elongated coils. But I feel like either way they are bigger than 4C.

The poster above who suggested putting 4C in its own category and calling it type 5 might be on to something. I think the coil zigzag thing is less important than the size of curl/coil and the texture. (But I think that was already said as well.)
 
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