Roe is Dead. Long Live Christ the King!

PatDM'T

Well-Known Member
The sad thing
about so-called
Christians forcing their
views on others,
is it is so
contrary to Christ's
way of living.

Not only are
we made in
God's image and
thus sacred in
our own right,
but also God
gave each of
us a free will.

I repeat:
The Almighty God,
the Omnipotent One,
gave us free will.

So not only
are we supposed
to worry about
our own bodies
and keeping them
holy, we are
also not supposed
to judge others.

It is always
funny to me
how quickly people
fall off their
high horse when
stuff hits close
to home and
they have to
make tough decisions
for themselves or
their child.

It also boggles
my mind how
much hatred and
anger people can
harbor and spew
toward those of
a different opinion
and still profess
they are Christ
followers. :rolleyes:

They would be
the same people
Jesus would dare
to cast the
first stone as
he stood in
defense of the
hurting and conflicted.

Show me a
prolife evangelist
with empathy and
Christlike compassion
and I will show
you flying pig.

My God is
a pro-choice God.
He gave man
free will to
choose what he will.
Pro-choice means
I get to choose
what I do
with my body.
Whether to keep
a child or not.

How da heck two
legged creatures can
just decide that
they will take away
a right God
Almighty gave us
and then talk
about being His
messengers or servants
is such an
oxymoron; and can
even be blasphemy
if you think
about it.

I will leave
this here:

 
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Lylddlebit

Well-Known Member
I understand. I don't get up on arms about topics like this or rejoice at something being removed that successfully sowed a ton of evil while existing. This topic is a "heart" condition more than a legal one to me. The goodness of people stays under attack. Aborting children doesn't stop rape, being uncovered by fathers brothers or husbands, cause mothers to desire their children, cause people to value family over economics, foster Godly marriage, prepare women for motherhood, promote healthy kids, foster healthy pregnancies, teach responsibility and accountability etc but it sure takes away a lot. The con is that it takes what most who support it don't realize is valuable. This topic just makes me sad. I was an RA in college. I have a lot of perspectives to remember just how sad and how much further the consequences linger than the intent but I can't make anyone see that the Lord's blessing are far more valuable than things of this world. They choose to accept or reject it.

ETA: fixed an awkward sentence for clarity.
 
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Lylddlebit

Well-Known Member
For context. I have never had an abortion and don't support it, personally. I just know it doesn't really abort all the issues that led to it being the course of action and all those issue are the actual root of the problem.
 

PatDM'T

Well-Known Member
If I got raped
and became pregnant
not having an
abortion won't solve
the actual root
of the problem
either.

However, I
know I would
not want to
bear the child
of a rapist.
I do not care
what happy ending
others in that
scenario have had.
And just as
I am not
judging them for
their decision, they
need not judge
me either.
(Why is it
this is such
an easy concept
to some but
not others?)

As far as I
would be concerned
Satan's child just
planted a seed
in me and no
way would I
be OK bearing
his spawn and
being yoked to
that fam....

An abortion would
free me from
what would be
an unbearable journey.
So while it would
not change the
root of the
problem, it would
allow *me* to
start the healing
process and to
freely walk the
path I chose.

Back to solving
the root of a
problem that is
outside of me:
what has what
I choose to
do to deal
with my part
of the story
got to do with
anyone else or
even the root
of the problem?

How is my
decision impacting
what anyone else
believes or supports?

This would be
like there being
a robbery in the
neighborhood and one
person installing surveillance,
another installing a
security system,
another buying a gun,
and then there
be someone complaining
that none of that
solves the root
of the problem.

So? Everyone has
to do what works
for them and then
those of you with
solutions outside of
everyone's choice of
how to feel safe
go ahead and
solve the root
issue of robbers.

#Boundaries
 

Lylddlebit

Well-Known Member
@PatDM'T I respect you and I am not judging you. I stand behind my decision to not participate in abortion or supporting it in others. That is best reflected in my decisions and lifestyle. That is also very different from trying to change your mind. Also in reference to the root issue of the problem my post was not in response to yours. I actually believe my first one occurred as you were posting. Protected women can be shielded from rape. Men who have honor, morals and scruples, don't rape women. I have a couple real life examples of suicide attempts that demonstrated how abortions magnified an already painful situation but that is its own thing. I certainly don't know you nearly as well as several women whom I visited at the hospital after they attempted suicide and called me or came by my home to have a conversation with me afterwards. When looking for someone to change minds or hearts, that isn't my goal. I just have experienced lots of real life scenarios for perspective. Most of my posts aren't "if I's" they are "when I's". I remember when I was raped. I remember when I was molested. I remember when I had delivery complications and "said save my baby" ...ain't God good with us both here today. I remember when my friends cried to me in regret of their personal abortions. I remember hospital calls. The list goes on. My friends, relatives and past residents knew/know even though I didn't/don't support abortion I would support them as people I love and listen to them when they call...which is why they would call me instead of 911 in the days after if and emergency followed happened...or why I was the only one who knew why they were really in the hospital...you know following that begin of healing that never actually started like they planned for it to. In that vein, my commentary is wasn't targeting you. It is based on people telling me more about their pain than I ever knew in time to "judge". I respect you, even when we disagree. I hope that clears up the confusion. My post is intended with respect.
 
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Galadriel

Well-Known Member
The sad thing
about so-called
Christians forcing their
views on others,
is it is so
contrary to Christ's
way of living.

This is a human rights issue. I would gladly celebrate the abolition of human trafficking and slavery. Celebrating that way less babies will be murdered is a good thing.

Not only are
we made in
God's image and
thus sacred in
our own right,
but also God
gave each of
us a free will.

Exactly. We are made in God's image, and God tells us not to shed innocent blood.

I repeat:
The Almighty God,
the Omnipotent One,
gave us free will.

We have free will to choose between GOOD and EVIL. And abortion is evil.

So not only
are we supposed
to worry about
our own bodies
and keeping them
holy, we are
also not supposed
to judge others.

We are not to judge whether someone goes to Hell, but we can certainly judge ACTIONS.
The whole point of objective morality is judging between good and evil and choosing the right path.


It is always
funny to me
how quickly people
fall off their
high horse when
stuff hits close
to home and
they have to
make tough decisions
for themselves or
their child.

Has no bearing on the fact that abortion is murder.

It also boggles
my mind how
much hatred and
anger people can
harbor and spew
toward those of
a different opinion
and still profess
they are Christ
followers. :rolleyes:

No anger or hate here. Hmm, seems like you're being a bit...judgmental?

They would be
the same people
Jesus would dare
to cast the
first stone as
he stood in
defense of the
hurting and conflicted.

Jesus, who is God, tells us not to murder innocent human beings:

"He says to him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shall not murder. Thou shall not commit adultery. Thou shall not steal. Thou shall not testify falsely." (Matt. 19:18)

"Thou shalt not give of thy seed to offer it unto Moloch, that thou defile not the name of thy God, for I am the LORD." (Lev. 18:21)


Show me a
prolife evangelist
with empathy and
Christlike compassion
and I will show
you flying pig.

I know many who are compassionate and amazing people. Perhaps if you weren't so judgmental you'd be able to meet more of them?

My God is
a pro-choice God.
He gave man
free will to
choose what he will.
Pro-choice means
I get to choose
what I do
with my body.
Whether to keep
a child or not.

Nope.

How da heck two
legged creatures can
just decide that
they will take away
a right God
Almighty gave us

Show me where murdering an innocent human (especially a vulnerable human) is a right.

and then talk
about being His
messengers or servants
is such an
oxymoron; and can
even be blasphemy
if you think
about it.

I will leave
this here:


I think saying God approves of dismembering our children is blasphemous.
 

Galadriel

Well-Known Member
I understand. I don't get up on arms about topics like this or rejoice at something being removed that successfully sowed a ton of evil while existing. This topic is a "heart" condition more than a legal one to me.

I think it's both, because it involves a direct assault upon human life.

The goodness of people stays under attack. Aborting children doesn't stop rape, being uncovered by fathers brothers or husbands, cause mothers to desire their children, cause people to value family over economics, foster Godly marriage, prepare women for motherhood, promote healthy kids, foster healthy pregnancies, teach responsibility and accountability etc but it sure takes away a lot. The con is that it takes what most who support it don't realize is valuable. This topic just makes me sad. I was an RA in college. I have a lot of perspectives to remember just how sad and how much further the consequences linger than the intent but I can't make anyone see how much more valuable the Lord's blessing have been than things offered in the world. The options is there to see it but its optional to choose or reject.

The issue makes me sad as well, because it's such an egregious injustice.
 

PatDM'T

Well-Known Member
This is a human rights issue. I would gladly celebrate the abolition of human trafficking and slavery. Celebrating that way less babies will be murdered is a good thing.

Except no one
is killing babies
as far as
I am concerned.

Exactly. We are made in God's image, and God tells us not to shed innocent blood.

Again...
no clue what
you are talmbout.


We have free will to choose between GOOD and EVIL. And abortion is evil.

To you abortion
is evil so
you choose
not to do it.
Let others choose
their path.
Free will as
God's word says:

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

We are not to judge whether someone goes to Hell, but we can certainly judge ACTIONS.
The whole point of objective morality is judging between good and evil and choosing the right path.

Key word being
YOU choosing the
right path for
you and letting
others exercise their
free will about
their bodies.

As for judging...

Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”

So then each of us will give an account of himself to God
.



Scripture in Italics
is from Romans 14.


Has no bearing on the fact that abortion is murder.
Your definition
not mine..
And my point
has bearing because
hypocrisy shows itself
in big ways
among so folks
who sit on high
chairs judging others.
The same people
pointing fingers seem
to end up doing
the very thing
they condemned
when push comes
to shove.

No anger or hate here. Hmm, seems like you're being a bit...judgmental?

It doesn't take
half a brain to
know that when
abortion clinics are
bombed or people
stand outside hollering
at people going
into abortion clinics
there is no love
or compassion.

Come on now!

Jesus, who is God, tells us not to murder innocent human beings:

"He says to him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shall not murder. Thou shall not commit adultery. Thou shall not steal. Thou shall not testify falsely." (Matt. 19:18)

"Thou shalt not give of thy seed to offer it unto Moloch, that thou defile not the name of thy God, for I am the LORD." (Lev. 18:21)

This is a moot
point because you
see a yellow dress
and I see a blue one.
We will never
agree as no
one is being
murdered.

I know many who are compassionate and amazing people. Perhaps if you weren't so judgmental you'd be able to meet more of them?
LOL

Again...if they
were compassionate
they would not
be harassing people
who exercise their
freedom of choice.

You do not see
pro-choice folks
standing at adoption
centers screaming at
mothers who had
babies they would
not keep.

And if I have
to look for the
few good ones
when the majority
are loud and clearly
don't know their
boundaries, then
ain't nobody got
time for that.
And what am I
looking for them
for again?


Not sure
what you are
disagreeing with.

Pro = for
Choice = the act
of exercising will
in making a decision.

God does not
force us to
do anything but
lets us choose.

Hence my saying
he is pro-choice.

Seems the way
you and I understand
stuff is so different.

Show me where murdering an innocent human (especially a vulnerable human) is a right.

Murdering a human
being is never OK.
But I am not
sure what this
has to do with
our discussion since
no one is being murdered.

I think saying God approves of dismembering our children is blasphemous.

Oh absolutely!
Did someone say that?
 

PatDM'T

Well-Known Member
@PatDM'T I respect you and I am not judging you. I stand behind my decision to not participate in abortion or supporting it in others. That is best reflected in my decisions and lifestyle. That is also very different from trying to change your mind. Also in reference to the root issue of the problem my post was not in response to yours. I actually believe my first one occurred as you were posting. Protected women can be shielded from rape. Men who have honor, morals and scruples, don't rape women. I have a couple real life examples of suicide attempts that demonstrated how abortions magnified an already painful situation but that is its own thing. I certainly don't know you nearly as well as several women whom I visited at the hospital after they attempted suicide and called me or came by my home to have a conversation with me afterwards. When looking for someone to change minds or hearts, that isn't my goal. I just have experienced lots of real life scenarios for perspective. Most of my posts aren't "if I's" they are "when I's". I remember when I was raped. I remember when I was molested. I remember when I had delivery complications and "said save my baby" ...ain't God good with us both here today. I remember when my friends cried to me in regret of their personal abortions. I remember hospital calls. The list goes on. My friends, relatives and past residents knew/know even though I didn't/don't support abortion I would support them as people I love and listen to them when they call...which is why they would call me instead of 911 in the days after if and emergency followed happened...or why I was the only one who knew why they were really in the hospital...you know following that begin of healing that never actually started like they planned for it to. In that vein, my commentary is wasn't targeting you. It is based on people telling me more about their pain than I ever knew in time to "judge". I respect you, even when we disagree. I hope that clears up the confusion. My post is intended with respect.
@Lylddlebit I did
not think you
were judging me
nor would it
bother me personally
if you were
and I too
respect your choice
not to participate
or support abortion
(I am pro-choice
after all and
wish for everyone
to decide for
themselves).

I was just
trying to understand
your point regarding
abortion not solving
the root problem.

And just like
you have seen
people traumatized
by the experience
of abortion, there
are many who
are not and the
other side of
the coin, many
abandoned kids
by mothers who
never wanted them.

So it is not
that one way
is better than
the other, and
I applaud your
not getting up
in arms because
it is a complicated
topic and only
the person faced
with this dilemma
should be reaching
out for direction
and advice, if they
need it because
it really is
no one else's
business otherwise.
 

Galadriel

Well-Known Member
Except no one
is killing babies
as far as
I am concerned.

That's what abortion is. It's the direct killing of a baby in the womb.

To you abortion
is evil so
you choose
not to do it.
Let others choose
their path.
Free will as
God's word says:

You have yet to demonstrate that murder is a valid moral choice, especially according to Scripture, since God commands us several times not to commit murder.

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

The passage you quoted is about whether or not Jewish Christians could eat meat that had possibly been offered as part of a non-Christian sacrifice. The Church Fathers (as well as the Apostles) taught that we ought to bless our meat (or any meal really) and pray over it before eating, and the person praying should be fine. You're taking this an extrapolating this to a Divine moral law (Thou Shall Not Kill) which leaves no room for individual preference, because it's an ABSOLUTE.

Key word being
YOU choosing the
right path for
you and letting
others exercise their
free will about
their bodies.

If someone decides to stick a gun in your face and rob you or shoot you, they do not have the right to do that. Murder is not a right.
Also, that baby is not the woman's body--the baby's body is the baby's body.

As for judging...

Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”

So then each of us will give an account of himself to God
.

1 John 5:16 (murder is a mortal sin, or a sin leading to death):
"If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this."

Exodus 23:7 (you shall not put an innocent person to death):
"Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty."

Revelation 21:8 (murderers will be consigned to the lake of fire):
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”


Your definition
not mine..
And my point
has bearing because
hypocrisy shows itself
in big ways
among so folks
who sit on high
chairs judging others.
The same people
pointing fingers seem
to end up doing
the very thing
they condemned
when push comes
to shove.

This has no bearing on my argument and is a silly strawman.

Here is my argument:

Abortion is the direct killing of an innocent human being.
A pre-born baby is an innocent human being.
Killing an innocent human being is objectively evil and is also forbidden by God.

Has absolutely nothing to do with whether you think someone is a hypocrite.

It doesn't take
half a brain to
know that when
abortion clinics are
bombed or people
stand outside hollering
at people going
into abortion clinics
there is no love
or compassion.

Come on now!

Really? Hmmm, because over the past couple of months, pregnancy centers that provide pregnant women with diapers, formula, and other services have been firebombed and vandalized. Wow, what love and compassion from pro-abortionists!

This is a moot
point because you
see a yellow dress
and I see a blue one.
We will never
agree as no
one is being
murdered.

That statement is false and unscientific.
 

PatDM'T

Well-Known Member
That's what abortion is. It's the direct killing of a baby in the womb.



You have yet to demonstrate that murder is a valid moral choice, especially according to Scripture, since God commands us several times not to commit murder.



The passage you quoted is about whether or not Jewish Christians could eat meat that had possibly been offered as part of a non-Christian sacrifice. The Church Fathers (as well as the Apostles) taught that we ought to bless our meat (or any meal really) and pray over it before eating, and the person praying should be fine. You're taking this an extrapolating this to a Divine moral law (Thou Shall Not Kill) which leaves no room for individual preference, because it's an ABSOLUTE.



If someone decides to stick a gun in your face and rob you or shoot you, they do not have the right to do that. Murder is not a right.
Also, that baby is not the woman's body--the baby's body is the baby's body.



1 John 5:16 (murder is a mortal sin, or a sin leading to death):
"If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this."

Exodus 23:7 (you shall not put an innocent person to death):
"Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty."

Revelation 21:8 (murderers will be consigned to the lake of fire):
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”




This has no bearing on my argument and is a silly strawman.

Here is my argument:

Abortion is the direct killing of an innocent human being.
A pre-born baby is an innocent human being.
Killing an innocent human being is objectively evil and is also forbidden by God.

Has absolutely nothing to do with whether you think someone is a hypocrite.



Really? Hmmm, because over the past couple of months, pregnancy centers that provide pregnant women with diapers, formula, and other services have been firebombed and vandalized. Wow, what love and compassion from pro-abortionists!



That statement is false and unscientific.

Once again
your definitions and
mine differ as
does our understanding
of scripture and
what it is talking
about if you really
think Roman 14
is a story about
a certain culture
of people and
not at all relevant
to living like
Christ did. :hand:


As for the
recent attacks on
antiabortion pregnancy
centers, while I
do not condone it,
just as I don't
condone burning buildings
when injustice against
our people goes
unpunished, I can
understand the "scream"
of the voiceless
and powerless.
But before the
SC ruling against
Roe v Wade,
did you see
pregnant women
bothered the way
people going for
abortions were?
I think not.

Pro Choice folks
support the right
of everyone to
choose for themselves
and are not
about forcing folks
to bend to
their will.

Anyway, as I
said, we are
on different ends
of a spectrum
and speak different
tongues so let's
just agree to disagree.

But avoid foolish controversies, arguments about genealogies, quarrels, and fights about the Law. These things are useless and worthless.
TITUS 3:9
 
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Galadriel

Well-Known Member
Once again
your definitions and
mine differ as

Okay, define murder.

does our understanding
of scripture and
what it is talking
about if you really
think Roman 14
is a story about
a certain culture
of people and
not at all relevant
to living like
Christ did. :hand:

Along with my bachelor's I also minored in Biblical Studies. I've also been studying theology since 1998. So I'm pretty sure it isn't a wild guess LOL.

As for the
recent attacks on
antiabortion pregnancy
centers, while I
do not condone it,
just as I don't
condone burning buildings
when injustice against
our people goes
unpunished, I can
understand the "scream"
of the voiceless
and powerless.
But before the
SC ruling against
Roe v Wade,
did you see
pregnant women
bothered the way
people going for
abortions were?
I think not.

Ah, do you mean "bothered" the way the Supreme Court justices were bothered at their homes?

Pro Choice folks
support the right
of everyone to
choose for themselves

No, they are pro-abortion.
 

Lylddlebit

Well-Known Member
@Lylddlebit I did
not think you
were judging me
nor would it
bother me personally
if you were
and I too
respect your choice
not to participate
or support abortion
(I am pro-choice
after all and
wish for everyone
to decide for
themselves).

I was just
trying to understand
your point regarding
abortion not solving
the root problem.

And just like
you have seen
people traumatized
by the experience
of abortion, there
are many who
are not and the
other side of
the coin, many
abandoned kids
by mothers who
never wanted them.

So it is not
that one way
is better than
the other, and
I applaud your
not getting up
in arms because
it is a complicated
topic and only
the person faced
with this dilemma
should be reaching
out for direction
and advice, if they
need it because
it really is
no one else's
business otherwise.
You and I fundamentally disagree on this topic. I am glad there is a thread on this within the Christian section of what used to be a Christian forum though.
 

Lylddlebit

Well-Known Member
Christian ladies how are you all handling struggles with the passionate support of Roe vs Wade? This weekend a relative of mine contacted me very upset about the outrage towards Roe vs Wade being overturned. I tried to find balance of understanding righteous anger without falling into focusing on discord. I do believe righteous anger has it's place but often falls out of focus when grouped in the same space as a bunch of mess. I tried to fully hear her hurt in its own space. I just couldn't help but understand why she felt like she did though and remembered how passive talk of this topic trigged the heck out of me when I was hurting. The way that lead to discord from me in that season was not helpful in my situation. Studying James 4 helped me. I found people justifying abortion and mistreatment of kids insufferable when I was in the season of my miscarriage. I know personal hurt can magnify aversion and reaction to mess but I also believe just being able to focus on what you go through and what the word says about it is much more efficient. We talked about that Holy Spirit clashing with sin as throughly as that demons clash with righteousness. So Christian ladies, how are we staying uplifted and encouraged in these times? How are we encouraging those hurt by the this situation? How can we magnify our blessings while just being real and genuine as we trudge through personal hurts? How are we running our race these days? How are we understanding that Holy Spirit within us conflicting with the malice around us? How are we doing?

ETA: clarified my post and tried to remove some medical details. I don't want my context lost or too much personal detail of others on the net.
 
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blessedandfavoured

Well-Known Member
This thread escalated quick.

@Lylddlebit While I know that this is not a magic bullet that will change hearts and minds and convert souls, it fills me with hope that God answers prayers and that the fervent, effective prayer of a righteous person avails much. It makes me believe that God will imminently wipe away the curse of blood that has come over the nation and that this is the beginning of good things for U.S. America, and by extension the world.

It makes me believe that there will come a day when God will touch hearts and people will choose life - that gun laws will change, men will stop raping and abusing women and children, men will stop propositioning every woman that moves in the hope that they can experience pleasure without caring about the consequences, women won't feel cornered into killing their babies, people [especially men] will take responsibility for their bodies. Maybe there will even come a day in the U.S when children will go to school and people will go to the supermarket or mall without fearing that they will be shot dead.

It sounds like a dream, right? Well, the overturning of Roe vs Wade has made me feel like God's will can be done on earth as it is in Heaven - right down to everyone receiving Him and His love and mercy.

Do I believe that everyone who campaigned for life wants God's will to be done on earth? No. But I believe that God wants that and since it's His world which He made for His pleasure, it's His right. I think we should all seek to know His will and His definition of everything, and then things in this life will be clearer.

I pray that God comforts all who mourn at this time and reveals Himself to them in truth. May His voice be louder than all other, in Jesus' name.
 
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naturalgyrl5199

Well-Known Member
I understand. I don't get up on arms about topics like this or rejoice at something being removed that successfully sowed a ton of evil while existing. This topic is a "heart" condition more than a legal one to me. The goodness of people stays under attack. Aborting children doesn't stop rape, being uncovered by fathers brothers or husbands, cause mothers to desire their children, cause people to value family over economics, foster Godly marriage, prepare women for motherhood, promote healthy kids, foster healthy pregnancies, teach responsibility and accountability etc but it sure takes away a lot. The con is that it takes what most who support it don't realize is valuable. This topic just makes me sad. I was an RA in college. I have a lot of perspectives to remember just how sad and how much further the consequences linger than the intent but I can't make anyone see that the Lord's blessing are far more valuable than things of this world. They choose to accept or reject it.

ETA: fixed an awkward sentence for clarity.
The problem was/is, Women's free will (ETA: and reproductive needs and rights) was wrapped up into this legislature to start.
So by default, you exchange one frustration for the other. Because women carry the baby....she then loses her right to decide things about her health/body. There are VERY VERY few winners. Except those who won an arguement.

Most people fighting on the side of "Pro-Choice" don't want or need an abortion. They don't want the state to decide over their body or that of their wife or female loved ones. And some of that is still problematic. It also puts women's reproductive health at risk and thats an unfair but REAL thing. So when women see people celebrating Roe's overturning, they pray to God for different reasons. Some of that is that they no longer have free will. They can't get IVF because its legislated differently now. Or they're a doctor and they hope their lawyer will give them insight immediately about the legality of a life-saving D&E or D&C because a patient had a miscarriage and its actually not passing naturally, and that mom is bleeding out and they need an answer in 30 minutes or she will lose her life or her uterus/fertility to a hysterectomy. And her desperate want for a baby of her and husband's flesh and blood are gone, as is their ability to continue a genetic legacy. They see threads like this and can only depend on God to walk their mental health back. It may take a few days if ever. But her kids and family may be neglected until she can regulate again. Or she is a child services staff and despite being overloaded with kids with no placement, she is praying she can hang on a few more weeks/months for new staff onboarding that still hasn't come because the unplaced will skyrocket. I feel like people just don't understand how so much is lost. Because where you live should not determine HOW and IF you or a loved one will live. And that to support those who benefit from Roe--even those who have no need for--ever--for an abortion to be called a Moloch worshipper, is hurtful to the core. Especially people who are in the trenches doing the physical and mental work to support those such as the above in real time. Like it hurts. Its divisive and unfair. We Christians have got to do better. "ROE" wasn't a Moloch-only tool. Unless you opine that it was a Moloch tool to supress women, hurt hungry babies and divide families who cannot afford to feed children.
 

naturalgyrl5199

Well-Known Member
One of the things Christians try to do is to make this world a comfort through the word of God. These times were predicted:

Oppression, Toil, Friendlessness (Ecclesiastes 4)​

4 Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun:

I saw the tears of the oppressed—
and they have no comforter;
power was on the side of their oppressors—

and they have no comforter.
2 And I declared that the dead,
who had already died,
are happier than the living,
who are still alive.
3 But better than both
is the one who has never been born,
who has not seen the evil

that is done under the sun.

My frustration (and I love Ecclesiastes--the whole book--its deep) is that birth control was wrapped up into this legislation. But women already have a hard time accessing birth control, in the event she is in a relationship where she cannot refuse sex/conception with a violent partner. Birth control access is needed but lost for many now...so at the very least, she wouldn't become MORE vulnerable, as pregnant victims are in a domestic violence situation.

These are scary times. And we are being super insensitive when it comes to celebrating a situation where women will now be thrown into a situation where she cannot have a way of escape and that baby's life is in trouble.

And let me tell you, IF that baby makes it to foster care, they have a 26% chance at adoption. If they make it to their day of birth, and if they make it to their first birthday. And these are those predicted times.
...who has not seen the evil....
Even there God knows in certain conditions, oppression and madness can endure in a baby's psyche, DNA, mental health, etc. That they can carry on to the next generation and the next through generational trauma. We also cannot tell ourselves that its a small percentage or rare...Its THOUSANDS of children. Is not the argument to stop the abortion of ONE as a victory? Its not an argument to abort. Its an argument that we need to (re)consider how we pray for the health of babies. Ya'll are literally are just praying for BIRTH. Not a LIFE. Something these politician's you've hitched your prayers to REFUSE to do. :(
Victory is where we save the lives of the LIVING. So that in their futures, HEALTHY LIVES can endure.
 

naturalgyrl5199

Well-Known Member
I understand. I don't get up on arms about topics like this or rejoice at something being removed that successfully sowed a ton of evil while existing. This topic is a "heart" condition more than a legal one to me. The goodness of people stays under attack. Aborting children doesn't stop rape, being uncovered by fathers brothers or husbands, cause mothers to desire their children, cause people to value family over economics, foster Godly marriage, prepare women for motherhood, promote healthy kids, foster healthy pregnancies, teach responsibility and accountability etc but it sure takes away a lot. The con is that it takes what most who support it don't realize is valuable. This topic just makes me sad. I was an RA in college. I have a lot of perspectives to remember just how sad and how much further the consequences linger than the intent but I can't make anyone see that the Lord's blessing are far more valuable than things of this world. They choose to accept or reject it.

ETA: fixed an awkward sentence for clarity.
 

Lylddlebit

Well-Known Member
@naturalgyrl5199 I am not looking for discord with you either . I love Ecclesiastes too, when kept in context. Ecclesiastes is a sobering book about things being distorted to become unfair and the flaws of worldly thinking by comparison to Godly wisdom.


I do agree that oppressors distort and misuse. I just don't believe the the "it would be better if both were never born" part justifies abortion in related to this ruling... particularly since natural miscarriage occurs in a variety of scenarios, along with both never being born specified both never being born not termination or just one person being removed compared to Leviticus' 5 curse scenario or so an oppressor can get off scot-free . Anyway I am not up for a apologetics debates on the internet. My post are to keep reminding those in this thread who aren't supporting abortion that it is okay not to. To remind those who have been victimized that, I understand when people quote the victim scenario for abortion when it's unrelated to a specific abortion...I understand being bothered because that specific scenario bothers me too. To those I disagree with, including you, I can respectfully be more compassionate to sad situations than I can justify what I consider an additionally painful response. You began your post with "those who don't want or need abortion". Even though you and I don't see eye to eye. That scenario is the foundation of all my posts: not wanting or needing one. The other related politics I find corrupt and misused. Respectfully, this topic this no different. The reason its divisive and unfair is it was designed to be. Designed to take good intentions out of perfect will and order. Evil does not care which device removes us from the Lord's will and promises. It will take discord, disobedience, sin, confusion, oppression, abuse and its systems all the same. So the debate continues for those interested...but since I am not, I simply ask myself "Am I in God's promises?" because when I am not, I want to shift towards that not hope a man made, highly politicized response will compare.
 
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Belle Du Jour

Well-Known Member
I strongly recommend that you watch an abortion since you believe "no one is killing babies."
Fetuses have heartbeat.
Fetuses feel pain.
Fetuses suck their thumb.
Fetuses move.

It can't be a baby out of the womb and not a baby in the womb.

Abortion causes dismemberment of a living person or injection of a chemical to stop the fetus' heartbeat. Think about that happening to you.
Although abortion propaganda is very heavy on telling women the lie that it's "just a clump of cells" common sense tells us otherwise.
Except no one
is killing babies
as far as
I am concerned.
 

Crackers Phinn

Either A Blessing Or A Lesson.
I did not see this room when it was opened. Ladies, I say congratulations, you got what you prayed for. Just remember the saying; "when you pray for rain you better be prepared to deal with mud as well". Much like them 2016 "what about her email" election threads, my crystal ball is predicting that five to six years from now, it's go be a whole lotta "didn't see that coming" as a result of Roe V. Wade being overturned.

I'll be back in a few years to see if the halleluiahs age well.
 

naturalgyrl5199

Well-Known Member
@naturalgyrl5199 I am not looking for discord with you either . I love Ecclesiastes too, when kept in context. Ecclesiastes is a sobering book about things being distorted to become unfair and the flaws of worldly thinking by comparison to Godly wisdom.


I do agree that oppressors distort and misuse. I just don't believe the the "it would be better if both were never born" part justifies abortion in related to this ruling... particularly since natural miscarriage occurs in a variety of scenarios, along with both never being born specified both never being born not termination or just one person being removed compared to Leviticus' 5 curse scenario or so an oppressor can get off scot-free . Anyway I am not up for a apologetics debates on the internet. My post are to keep reminding those in this thread who aren't supporting abortion that it is okay not to. To remind those who have been victimized that, I understand when people quote the victim scenario for abortion when it's unrelated to a specific abortion...I understand being bothered because that specific scenario bothers me too. To those I disagree with, including you, I can respectfully be more compassionate to sad situations than I can justify what I consider an additionally painful response. You began your post with "those who don't want or need abortion". Even though you and I don't see eye to eye. That scenario is the foundation of all my posts: not wanting or needing one. The other related politics I find corrupt and misused. Respectfully, this topic this no different. The reason its divisive and unfair is it was designed to be. Designed to take good intentions out of perfect will and order. Evil does not care which device removes us from the Lord's will and promises. It will take discord, disobedience, sin, confusion, oppression, abuse and its systems all the same. So the debate continues for those interested...but since I am not, I simply ask myself "Am I in God's promises?" because when I am not, I want to shift towards that not hope a man made, highly politicized response will compare.
Me bringing up Ecclesiastes was not to justify killing anyone. Its to highlight a real fact that people ignore that these are scary times. Terrible times and that in these times, bringing in MORE BABIES one cannot afford makes no sense. 10x less sense in These times... If the baby is here, the baby is here. But people ignore the fact that there is a season for everything. This is a hard season right now, worse than others. I never meant it in context to justify abortion. Just to highlight the times. So when people see others celebrate the ruling, KNOW and hold space for those suffering right now due to bringing another child in this world whose parents may not be able to feed them adequately or provide the mental space to stretch it for another baby. They 99.9999% of the time WILL, but it will be a stretch. Like just hold space. Not to justify abortion. Hope that makes sense.
 

naturalgyrl5199

Well-Known Member
I did not see this room when it was opened. Ladies, I say congratulations, you got what you prayed for. Just remember the saying; "when you pray for rain you better be prepared to deal with mud as well". Much like them 2016 "what about her email" election threads, my crystal ball is predicting that five to six years from now, it's go be a whole lotta "didn't see that coming" as a result of Roe V. Wade being overturned.

I'll be back in a few years to see if the halleluiahs age well.

What can Christians rally behind now for the next 50 years like they did with the Pro-Life campaign? Can we get money, signs, pins, buttons, commercials, resources, funds, t-shirts, fundraisers for pro-woman's health, nutrition, easy access to doulas and breastfeeding (or formula) help, advocacy and agency to remove racial bias in the medical field? Cause if they can have that at the same level as the pro-life thing...baby we wouldn't NEED abortion. Problem mostly solved ya know? Fewer mothers and babies would die.
 

Lylddlebit

Well-Known Member
Me bringing up Ecclesiastes was not to justify killing anyone. Its to highlight a real fact that people ignore that these are scary times. Terrible times and that in these times, bringing in MORE BABIES one cannot afford makes no sense. 10x less sense in These times... If the baby is here, the baby is here. But people ignore the fact that there is a season for everything. This is a hard season right now, worse than others. I never meant it in context to justify abortion. Just to highlight the times. So when people see others celebrate the ruling, KNOW and hold space for those suffering right now due to bringing another child in this world whose parents may not be able to feed them adequately or provide the mental space to stretch it for another baby. They 99.9999% of the time WILL, but it will be a stretch. Like just hold space. Not to justify abortion. Hope that makes sense.
Okay. I am glad you weren't taking that scripture out of out of context. Thank you for clarifying. I do agree that now is a very scary and hard time where all those suffering deserve compassion. Space to be kind is perfectly reasonable.
 

Crackers Phinn

Either A Blessing Or A Lesson.
What can Christians rally behind now for the next 50 years like they did with the Pro-Life campaign? Can we get money, signs, pins, buttons, commercials, resources, funds, t-shirts, fundraisers for pro-woman's health, nutrition, easy access to doulas and breastfeeding (or formula) help, advocacy and agency to remove racial bias in the medical field? Cause if they can have that at the same level as the pro-life thing...baby we wouldn't NEED abortion. Problem mostly solved ya know? Fewer mothers and babies would die.
Ma'am, the goal was to end abortion. From the current state of things, it's pretty clear that women's (especially black women's) health and neonatal care did not make it into the last 50 years of prayers or voting decisions. Whatever happens now that abortion is no longer a right, just happens.
 

Galadriel

Well-Known Member
Christian ladies how are you all handling struggles with the passionate support of Roe vs Wade? This weekend a relative of mine contacted me very upset about the outrage towards Roe vs Wade being overturned. I tried to find balance of understanding righteous anger without falling into focusing on discord. I do believe righteous anger has it's place but often falls out of focus when grouped in the same space as a bunch of mess. I tried to fully hear her hurt in its own space. I just couldn't help but understand why she felt like she did though and remembered how passive talk of this topic trigged the heck out of me when I was hurting. The way that lead to discord from me in that season was not helpful in my situation. Studying James 4 helped me. I found people justifying abortion and mistreatment of kids insufferable when I was in the season of my miscarriage. I know personal hurt can magnify aversion and reaction to mess but I also believe just being able to focus on what you go through and what the word says about it is much more efficient. We talked about that Holy Spirit clashing with sin as throughly as that demons clash with righteousness. So Christian ladies, how are we staying uplifted and encouraged in these times? How are we encouraging those hurt by the this situation? How can we magnify our blessings while just being real and genuine as we trudge through personal hurts? How are we running our race these days? How are we understanding that Holy Spirit within us conflicting with the malice around us? How are we doing?

ETA: clarified my post and tried to remove some medical details. I don't want my context lost or too much personal detail of others on the net.

Firstly, my condolences on your loss. I have a cousin and a good friend who also went through miscarriages, and it's a painful experience. I agree with you that there are many emotions and questions surrounding this, and it definitely helps to be grounded in what God tells us through His Word. I'm currently going through a "Bible in a Year" study, as a devotional and as a starter to my day, and it makes such a difference. Taking everything day-by-day, and raising my children to love God, serve Him, and to be the hands and feet of Christ in this world.
 
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