German gov't raids home b/c parents homeschool--kids taken away

Galadriel

Well-Known Member
Saw this at the Register online :nono:



Daily News
‘Brutal’ German Raid on Home-Schooling Family Shocks Advocates
The forced removal of four children from their parents with SWAT-style tactics is denounced by the Home School Legal Defense Association.
BY CATHOLIC NEWS AGENCY
| Posted 9/4/13 at 9:20 AM




FRANKFURT, Germany — German officials seized four home-schooled children last week, provoking strong objections from U.S. home-schooling advocates who say the country’s ban on home education violates human rights.


“The right to home school is a human right,” said Mike Farris, founder of the Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA). “Germany has grossly violated these rights of this family.”


On the morning of Aug. 29, HSLDA reports, 20 social workers, armed police officers and special agents took four children from the home of Dirk and Petra Wunderlich, who were educating their children in violation of the national ban on home schooling.


The children's ages range from 7 to 14. The family lives near Darmstadt, 25 miles southwest of Frankfurt.


“I looked through a window and saw many people, police and special agents, all armed,” Dirk Wunderlich told HSLDA. “They told me they wanted to come in to speak with me.”


He said three police officers brought a battering ram, and they were prepared to smash his door. When he let them in, the officers shoved him in a chair and told him they had an order to take the children.


His 14-year-old daughter Machsejah was forcibly taken from the home, he said. “When I went outside, our neighbor was crying as she watched. I turned around to see my daughter being escorted as if she were a criminal by two big policemen,” Wunderlich said.


The girl’s mother tried to give her a kiss and a hug good-bye, but an agent “roughly elbowed her out of the way,” he said.


Petra Wunderlich said she was “shattered” by the removal of the children.
“We need help. We are fighting, but we need help,” she said.


Mike Donnelly, HSLDA’s director for international affairs, questioned why Germany’s leadership allows these “brutal acts.”


“Why is it so important to you to force people into your state schools? The echo of this act rings from a darker time in German history. When will leaders stand up and make changes so that brutality to children like the Wunderlichs no longer happens because of home schooling?” he said.
For four years, the Wunderlich family moved across different European Union countries to find a place where they could home school their children legally. However, the family had to return to Germany from France in 2012, when Dirk Wunderlich failed to find work, the British newspaper The Daily Mail reported.


On their return, German authorities began a criminal truancy case against them, and the children were placed in the custody of the Darmstadt Youth Welfare Office. Authorities found the children to be well treated, and they allowed them to remain in their parents’ care, but seized the children’s passports to prevent the family from leaving the country.


HSLDA said it obtained and translated the court documents related to the seizure of the children. The group said that the family’s home schooling of their children was the only legal grounds for removal.
The documents include a judicial order authorizing the use of force against the children if necessary, on the grounds that the children had “adopted the parents’ opinions” about home schooling, and their cooperation could not be expected.


The documents did not allege educational neglect.
“The law ignores the educational progress of the child; attendance — and not learning — is the object of the German law,” HSLDA stated.
Farris said that Germany has signed many human-rights treaties that recognize parents’ rights to provide “an education distinct from the public schools so that children may be educated according to the parents’ religious convictions.”


Other German home-schoolers have also faced legal difficulties in their efforts to educate their children.


Uwe and Hannelore Romeike, German Christian home-schooling parents, sought asylum in the U.S. for themselves and their children in 2008. They said they faced fines and the possible loss of custody of their children if they returned home. The U.S. Sixth Court of Appeals rejected their asylum request in May 2013.
The German law against home schooling was passed under the Nazi government in 1938. The European Court of Human Rights upheld the law in a September 2006 ruling.


Donnelly said that the Wunderlich parents were “shaken to the core and shocked by the event.”
“But they also told me that they had followed their conscience and the dictates of their faith. Although they don’t have much faith in the German state — they have a lot of faith in God,” he said. “They are an inspiring and courageous family.”


Copyright © 2013 EWTN News, Inc. All rights reserved.
 

Dellas

Well-Known Member
My German friend told me how German has operated after Hitler
You can be fined or go to jail for singing the praises of Hitler or displaying Nazi material
Also they make sure everyone understand history and what went wrong

Compared to the US where people who are racist are free to display racist symbols and teach whatever they want and claim religious freedom and we still have institutional racism

Although I might not agree with their methods their government is fighting not to repeat the past
 

Shimmie

"God is the Only Truth -- Period"
Staff member
This is grieving. And I hesitate to say it, but it is actually going back to being a Nazi terror. The parents were not committing a crime. :nono:
 

MrsHaseeb

Well-Known Member
This is grieving. And I hesitate to say it, but it is actually going back to being a Nazi terror. The parents were not committing a crime. :nono:

The kids have to be in school to be indoctrinated into the devil's system. That's what this is about. I will pray for these people.
 

Shimmie

"God is the Only Truth -- Period"
Staff member
The kids have to be in school to be indoctrinated into the devil's system.

That's what this is about. I will pray for these people.

MrsHaseeb...

This is exactly what I was thinking when I read this earlier. May I ask you something regarding the bolded above?

Don't you see this happening here? I truly believe that this 'vision' is in your spirit and you see this happening here. Especially with the school system brainwashing so many young children (Pre-K and Kindergarten) to accept homosexuality as the norm. Even to the point of drilling children that it is okay to experiment (which is an attempt to 'whet' their appetites for unnatural/carnal desires -- confuse their sexuality).

I don't want to derail this thread. And I apologize to Galadriel for getting off track. Maybe we can pick this up in the RT thread or start a new one.

Thanks in advance... :giveheart:
 

Laela

Sidestepping the "lynch mob"
Oh, my ... to traumatize children like this. :nono: Sounds like religious persecution, but the devil won't prevail against this family...

This part was encouraging to read:


“But they also told me that they had followed their conscience and the dictates of their faith. Although they don’t have much faith in the German state — they have a lot of faith in God,” he said. “They are an inspiring and courageous family.”
 

ktykaty

Well-Known Member
This article is playing on people's emotions in order to camouflage the truth and to manipulate our reaction.

This couple made a choice and they are facing the consequences of their choices. It's very sad that their children have to bear the consequences for their parents' choices but still, it's their choice.

In Germany, you can put uour children in public school or in private school. If they disagree this much with what is taught in german public schools, they could have chosen a catholic or lutheran school. ( I understand that in germany the tuitions are significantly lower than the average in Europe, which is way way lower than in America).

If homeschooling was what the Lord required of them, he would have provided the means and a way. If homeschooling was so important, they could have found another solution than to place themselves in an illegal situation.

They put their choices to homeschool above the welbeing of their family. I cannot congratulate nor approve nor support such a choice.

And yes, I recognise the right of the german government to forbid homeschooling. I recognised their right to enforce their laws.
And no this is not some type of nazi rule. Nobody is forced to go to any public schools. Going to school is mandatory, not going to a public school. Religious school is perfectly OK.
 

ktykaty

Well-Known Member
We are called to be wise.

Luke 14:

28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’
 

FlowerHair

Reclaiming my time
I don't usually post here, but I just wanted to say that there are a number of countries that ban home schooling - Sweden is one of them (where I live). There is a growing debate about this since the public and private school systems aren't working for everyone anymore (if they ever did).

The main reason why home schooling is prohibited is to stop especially Muslims from keeping their children at home, but also other religious groups. Unfortunately, the many people who would do an excellent job teaching their kids have to suffer for a few nutcases. Recently, a Jewish family was stopped from home schooling their daughters in Sweden.

This particular family should move to Denmark or some other country, where home schooling is accepted by law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_international_status_and_statistics
 

Nice & Wavy

Well-Known Member
As much as I dislike some of the laws of America, people must thank God everyday for where He has them living.:yep: Americans (I know these folks are German) living in these other countries with their laws shouldn't be surprise to what they can be subjected to if they choose to move there.:nono:

My niece home schools her 3 children because she found that they learn better being at home in a comfortable surrounding than being at a location where kids are disruptive and like to bully other kids. Her kids are doing very, very well and they meet with other Home School kids/parents to do outside curricular activities and such.:yep:

My prayers go out to this family. Its sad to see that its a crime to teach your children at home. The devil is certainly at work.:nono:
 

Nice & Wavy

Well-Known Member
I don't usually post here, but I just wanted to say that there are a number of countries that ban home schooling - Sweden is one of them (where I live). There is a growing debate about this since the public and private school systems aren't working for everyone anymore (if they ever did).

The main reason why home schooling is prohibited is to stop especially Muslims from keeping their children at home, but also other religious groups. Unfortunately, the many people who would do an excellent job teaching their kids have to suffer for a few nutcases. Recently, a Jewish family was stopped from home schooling their daughters in Sweden.

This particular family should move to Denmark or some other country, where home schooling is accepted by law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_international_status_and_statistics
:wave: FlowerHair!

How do you feel about it? Did you ever consider home schooling your child when he gets to be of school age?
 

FlowerHair

Reclaiming my time
:wave: FlowerHair!

How do you feel about it? Did you ever consider home schooling your child when he gets to be of school age?

:wave:

I would love to home school my son, and I already do sort of, but it will have to be after school hours when he gets older.

My SO said as recently as yesterday that he would love to pull our son out of daycare/preschool altogether if we had the possibility.

It seems that the politicians want every man and woman to work full time so that we must have our children in school and after school care full time in order for them to learn how to become "normal" citizens. There's no flexibility.

The school environment doesn't fit everyone. Some thrive there, some don't. Most children would thrive in smaller classes where they can focus on actual learning IMO.

Nice & Wavy
 

Shimmie

"God is the Only Truth -- Period"
Staff member
This article is playing on people's emotions in order to camouflage the truth and to manipulate our reaction.

This couple made a choice and they are facing the consequences of their choices. It's very sad that their children have to bear the consequences for their parents' choices but still, it's their choice.

In Germany, you can put uour children in public school or in private school. If they disagree this much with what is taught in german public schools, they could have chosen a catholic or lutheran school. ( I understand that in germany the tuitions are significantly lower than the average in Europe, which is way way lower than in America).

If homeschooling was what the Lord required of them, he would have provided the means and a way. If homeschooling was so important, they could have found another solution than to place themselves in an illegal situation.

They put their choices to homeschool above the welbeing of their family. I cannot congratulate nor approve nor support such a choice.

And yes, I recognise the right of the german government to forbid homeschooling. I recognised their right to enforce their laws.

And no this is not some type of nazi rule. Nobody is forced to go to any public schools. Going to school is mandatory, not going to a public school. Religious school is perfectly OK.

Hi Katy. :wave: I have a question. Against the law or not...do you feel that the German government went to extremes with this.

He said three police officers brought a battering ram, and they were prepared to smash his door. When he let them in, the officers shoved him in a chair and told him they had an order to take the children.

His 14-year-old daughter Machsejah was forcibly taken from the home, he said. “When I went outside, our neighbor was crying as she watched. I turned around to see my daughter being escorted as if she were a criminal by two big policemen,” Wunderlich said.

The girl’s mother tried to give her a kiss and a hug good-bye, but an agent “roughly elbowed her out of the way,” he said.

Petra Wunderlich said she was “shattered” by the removal of the children.
“We need help. We are fighting, but we need help,” she said.

Mike Donnelly, HSLDA’s director for international affairs, questioned why Germany’s leadership allows these “brutal acts.”

Also, they did make attempts to move :yep: and now the German government have taken away their (right) ability to move where they can home school their children.

Authorities found the children to be well treated, and they allowed them to remain in their parents’ care, but seized the children’s passports to prevent the family from leaving the country.

You shared that this is not some type of Nazi rule:

The German law against home schooling was passed under the Nazi government in 1938.

The European Court of Human Rights upheld the law in a September 2006 ruling.

I do agree that this family took a risk, a great risk in a country who has this strong opposition to home schooling. Germany is still acting under the Nazi regime with home schooling.
 

Nice & Wavy

Well-Known Member
:wave:

I would love to home school my son, and I already do sort of, but it will have to be after school hours when he gets older. :love2:

My SO said as recently as yesterday that he would love to pull our son out of daycare/preschool altogether if we had the possibility.

It seems that the politicians want every man and woman to work full time so that we must have our children in school and after school care full time in order for them to learn how to become "normal" citizens. There's no flexibility. Oh my goodness....:nono:

The school environment doesn't fit everyone. Some thrive there, some don't. Most children would thrive in smaller classes where they can focus on actual learning IMO. I agree...this should be in America too...:yep:

@Nice & Wavy
Thanks for answering my questions. Were you born and raised in Sweden? Have you ever lived here in America? Have you ever considered living here with your family?
 

LiftedUp

Well-Known Member
The right to home school is a human right

Since when? It's a choice not a right. I get that they desire for their children to be home school but it is against the law. The law doesn't violate human rights. What is the problem? Maybe they are not equipped with monitoring homeschooling. Maybe segments of the population who believe in it should make their voices be heard. But breaking the law is not the right thing to do.
 

Shimmie

"God is the Only Truth -- Period"
Staff member
Since when? It's a choice not a right. I get that they desire for their children to be home school but it is against the law. The law doesn't violate human rights. What is the problem? Maybe they are not equipped with monitoring homeschooling. Maybe segments of the population who believe in it should make their voices be heard. But breaking the law is not the right thing to do.

I totally agree that breaking the law is not right. :yep: However, the German officials did take this to an ultimate extreme in how it was handled.

I had to go back and re-read the article just to make sure that I hadn't missed something in context. The actions taken against them were extreme.
 

ktykaty

Well-Known Member
Hi Katy. :wave: I have a question. Against the law or not...do you feel that the German government went to extremes with this.

I don't like to give an opinion without all the facts. The only informations that emerges from this are coming from the family and the HSLDA. I'll wait to have some further explanations, because it's a case against the german gvt.
The only comment I would make is it seems that they were expecting troubles.


Also, they did make attempts to move :yep: and now the German government have taken away their (right) ability to move where they can home school their children.
Apparently they fled Germany and were living in France prior to moving back to Germany. :spinning::spinning:
here homeschooling is possible, very difficult (because of all the inept parents), there's a lot of controls, but it's is possible.


in the other case that I (partially) know of, the german police simply escorted the children to school.
this family has lost legal custody of their kids for a little less than a year and the kids weren't taken away from their parents. I think that there might be more to the story.


You shared that this is not some type of Nazi rule:
I do agree that this family took a risk, a great risk in a country who has this strong opposition to home schooling. Germany is still acting under the Nazi regime with home schooling.

this is not a nazi rule. Germany went through her legal system and tried dher best to erase anything nazi from it. to qualify their laws as nazi is a grave insult to the german people. they are still deeply traumatized by everything nazi.
Germany has developed a deep collective sense where sometimes they manges to put the collective wellbeing above their individual wellbeing. I personally think it's a reaction to the trauma of nazism.
IMHO, this particular rule about homeschooling is there to ensure that this collective sense is passed down to the next generation.
 

momi

Well-Known Member
Since when? It's a choice not a right. I get that they desire for their children to be home school but it is against the law. The law doesn't violate human rights. What is the problem? Maybe they are not equipped with monitoring homeschooling. Maybe segments of the population who believe in it should make their voices be heard. But breaking the law is not the right thing to do.

Yes they broke the law - but the law is unjust. Parents should have the right to teach their children at home if they choose.
 

ktykaty

Well-Known Member
I totally agree that breaking the law is not right. :yep: However, the German officials did take this to an ultimate extreme in how it was handled.

I had to go back and re-read the article just to make sure that I hadn't missed something in context. The actions taken against them were extreme.

Shimmie,

This particular family seems to be in a legal battle with the german governement since 2009 at least, maybe even longer than that.
They were fined, they fled, they came back, they lost legal custody, then now they lost physical custody. This article only presents the culmilating point of something that has been brewing for some years.
They choose an illegal road. They choose to stay on that illegal road no matter what.
It's not like they did not have any other choices.
 

Nice & Wavy

Well-Known Member
Today its homeschool. Tomorrow: You can't wear your hair curly. Then: You can't wear lipstick or nail polish. Then: You are not allowed to wear open-toed shoes. Next: Don't speak unless spoken to. Then: You must bow down and worship the country's dog mascot.:nono:

Its a cycle....people are always behaving in cycles.:yep:
 

momi

Well-Known Member
Shimmie,

This particular family seems to be in a legal battle with the german governement since 2009 at least, maybe even longer than that.
They were fined, they fled, they came back, they lost legal custody, then now they lost physical custody. This article only presents the culmilating point of something that has been brewing for some years.
They choose an illegal road. They choose to stay on that illegal road no matter what.
It's not like they did not have any other choices.

I've been following this story for a while. I'm sure they felt like they were left with no options... especially when they wholeheartedly believe that they were doing the right thing for their children.

As a SN - parents in the US should watch closely as well.
 

Shimmie

"God is the Only Truth -- Period"
Staff member
Shimmie,

This particular family seems to be in a legal battle with the german governement since 2009 at least, maybe even longer than that.
They were fined, they fled, they came back, they lost legal custody, then now they lost physical custody. This article only presents the culmilating point of something that has been brewing for some years.
They choose an illegal road. They choose to stay on that illegal road no matter what.
It's not like they did not have any other choices.

Thanks Katy for sharing ... :yep:
 

Galadriel

Well-Known Member
Thanks for all the comments, ladies. I agree with momi that homeschooling one's children is a basic right, because it's a parental right. Parents have the right to educate their children and direct their children's education as they see fit.

I understand ktykaty's point that the family (at least earlier) had some other options like private school, etc. But it seems even those options have been taken away since they cannot leave Germany and the children have been wrestled away.
 

Laela

Sidestepping the "lynch mob"
I appreciate the background information on this story.. still, and not to sound like a sensationalist... there will come a time when people have to choose God or the law of the land. In the days of Acts, folks done break so many laws.. Peter broke out of prison.. lol... my point is, I believe there is more to this dispute between the family and the government, like they're being used as "examples". Why bar them from leaving the country while keeping them from homeschooling their children? Sounds like excessive force to me. Like that man who in a state in the West who'd tried to have home church and the city disguised its efforts to get into his coffers by issuing excessive "zoning" citations. Christians have been persecuted since after Christ's death.. it's only going to get worse. Who is to say that God hasn't already made a way for this family? We can't always go by what we just see or hear.
 

momi

Well-Known Member
Update:


Breaking News: The Home School Legal Defense Association who is defending the Wunderlich parents, just announced that the German government has returned the children to the care of their parents.

Click here to read about the shocking raid in late August, when authorites stormed this family's home, forcibly removing the children.

The government has made this a conditional release. The parents must agree to send their children to a state school. If the Wunderlich's refuse to do so, they could lose permanent custody of their children.

Please continue to pray for this family.


http://blogs.christianpost.com/friday-tidings/germany-releases-children-17989/
 

MrsHaseeb

Well-Known Member
Update:


Breaking News: The Home School Legal Defense Association who is defending the Wunderlich parents, just announced that the German government has returned the children to the care of their parents.

Click here to read about the shocking raid in late August, when authorites stormed this family's home, forcibly removing the children.

The government has made this a conditional release. The parents must agree to send their children to a state school. If the Wunderlich's refuse to do so, they could lose permanent custody of their children.

Please continue to pray for this family.

http://blogs.christianpost.com/friday-tidings/germany-releases-children-17989/

Lord Jesus.... I will pray for them.
 
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