How To Grow & Retain 20" Of 4c Hair

beingofserenity said:

I saw her wet hair. It still looks like 4c hair to me. Even Dephyne who is undeniably 4c looks like curls and waves start to form in her hair when wet and conditioned. Baby hair only refers to the hair at your edges and women use gels, edge tamers, hot combs etc. to force those hairs to lie down. So someones baby hairs isn't always an indicator of whether or not they have kinky hair.

Hair types are made up anyway. There's no scientific data backing up the different categories, so I don't see why people are trying to redefine someone else's hair just because it's not like theirs.

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I make it no secret I hate hair typing for reasons of this entire thread, but I also see the simplicity in it, at times. It easier to give hair advice and understand problems when you know the hair type. Each one is dealt with differently. However, I've seen different types of 4c heads and they don't always look the same.

In reference to edges, I'm just going to throw out there I knew a type 3 that relaxed her edges to have that fine baby hair look. My cousin is 4c and I've seen her doing the same thing. Not implying anything, but I don't equate edges or baby hair to mean anything more than having a little more hair on the front of your head.

sweethair said:

Again shrinkage and texture are two different things. I said before the pic I had a smoothing treatment. If not my hair coils have fallen to bottle of my ears. The smoothing treatment elongated my coils but there still coils. The front of my hairs heat damaged that's why it likes loose. Unfortunately I don't have old pics of my texture it was on my old phone. But my hair was like naturally high on YouTube, tight, tiny coiled hair. Doesnt reflex light even when heathly and mosturized. Has a sheen but doesnt shine. The diameter of my coils was like this--- O and smaller. If you look at the pic of my edges that's my texture. But even my treated hair i still has small coils you can see the texture especially in the back. Napp queen has curly hair with lots of shrinkage. But she still has curls her hair still smooths out and her baby hair is laid! That's not 4 c hair.

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I wasn't looking at the looser texture on your head when I came to my conclusion. I read what you said about your loosened texture before I posted. Looking at your hair, the ends how they coil up, I don't see the coils being tighter than Napp Queens. They could even be looser. I think we can all agree Daphne Madyara is 4c and she has baby hair. She's not too into smoothing them particularly but you can see them in this pic:


The problem is you can't fit African hair into the 12 or so categories. I feel like the hair typing system negates hard work of some, and down right confuses others.

for some of us hair has become a hobby of sorts. attempting to type is kind of fun and intriguing and results in great hair porn

I'm a 4c. mostly. my bangs and nape are oddly 3c to 4a.

The 4c does not define unless i practically use a 5oz jar of heavy product to weigh it down. Even when soaking wet (without product), it looks like dark brown cotton candy from a distance and up close as a whole. individually, the coils are probably coffee stirrer sized and smaller.

Unstretched styles for even 5 days can mean a mini set back due to the sheer number of SSK. retention is near impossible (it's very fine too) though I think I've gotten it under control finally. also my hair shrinks to about 3 inches and it's SL to CBL.

wash day is this weekend. if I remember I'll take pics wet and dry.

this lady is certainly 4c. like me

Sharpened said:

Yours looks similar to mine - 4b.

Here is a true 4c, Glamazini (aka Roshini):
.

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Having looser curled hair around the perimeter is very common for a lot of coily girls regardless of texture. Many of us have multiple textures which is why the hair typing thing can be misleading.

I just finished doing Napp85's aloe vera plant pre-poo and I see the variations of texture in my hair. In a single section, some strands look like Napp85's, others are tighter (smaller diameter) and a few are looser. I also see why she may consider her hair 4a. Before I did this, my hair looked like what's considered 4c (I did an external salt herb cleanse yesterday and didn't remoisturize my hair) but once I sprayed it with water and added the aloe and oil, it reverted back to its regular texture. Like I said earlier, consistent conditioning and added hydration make a difference when it comes to how hair looks .

Also, the hair typing thing can amount to being a modern-day brown paper bag test of sorts. Not saying I've seen that they type of comments in this thread, but I've seen the foolishness around hair typing elsewhere.

For reference, here's the Napp85 video:

@beingofserenity

Bunnyhaslonghair said:

I wasn't looking at the looser texture on your head when I came to my conclusion. I read what you said about your loosened texture before I posted. Looking at your hair, the ends how they coil up, I don't see the coils being tighter than Napp Queens. They could even be looser. I think we can all agree Daphne Madyara is 4c and she has baby hair. She's not too into smoothing them particularly but you can see them in this pic:

The problem is you can't fit African hair into the 12 or so categories. I feel like the hair typing system negates hard work of some, and down right confuses others.

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We are going to have to agree to disagree Napp queens wash video shows her curls. Also how her hair smooths down. Dephane edges I wouldn't consider baby hair it's fine like peach fuzz. I have that on the sides behind my ears to my kitchen. Napp queens edges are laided!! Dephane is my hair twin, fine hair with tiny coils and z patterns. Her braidouts never have shine because of the texture. I don't see that with her hair Napp queens hair it's more smooth. It's looks 4c in a fro but like said most 4 types look the same in a fro. You are right about categorizing it's too limiting. But I will never look at Napp queens videos especially after the wash video and say shes had the same hair type as dephane or naturally high.

Also shrinkage didn't equal texture. Protective princess has fine 4c hair and it's elongated. But you still see her tiny z patterns and coils.

We probably need 4 type hair for every letter of the alphabet and then some!!!

I agree. My baby hairs are more prominent when I wash my face, sweat or wear a head scarf. I don't have to do anyting to get them to lay and my hair is 4a.

Saludable84 said:

I make it no secret I hate hair typing for reasons of this entire thread, but I also see the simplicity in it, at times. It easier to give hair advice and understand problems when you know the hair type. Each one is dealt with differently. However, I've seen different types of 4c heads and they don't always look the same.

In reference to edges, I'm just going to throw out there I knew a type 3 that relaxed her edges to have that fine baby hair look. My cousin is 4c and I've seen her doing the same thing. Not implying anything, but I don't equate edges or baby hair to mean anything more than having a little more hair on the front of your head.

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Wonder if she had a keratine treatment or something else done to loosen her curl pattern?

ForestRose said:

Yep I know it is for me. I don't watch YT hair videos like I used to but the other day I came across this...?

Like yes her hair may be 4c if she has heat damage but that is 4a from root to tip. Her roots would be kinky. People in the comments must've called her out because she disable them lol. Her hair is gorgeous but why claim 4c for brownie points

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Girl I keep my hair in Sections from start to finish on wash day. Its stretched 95% of the time. Ive gotten great trips from kimmaytube and dephane. Before kimmaytube I never saw progress with my hair. Once I changed up my wash day kept my hair in sections and twist it was like night and day.

CurlyMoo said:

Thank you for sharing your pictures.
This is the issue I am having with tangles and knots.
I guess I will never let it dry unstretched, because girrrrl.
I am at the point of fantasizing about cutting my hair down to 2 inches.

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I see what you are saying. She likely has mixed textures throughout her hair. Maybe its s looser texture in the front. My hair is 98% the same. I have a small patch at my nape that is smooth and curly. I guess its 4a.

DarkJoy said:

for some of us hair has become a hobby of sorts. attempting to type is kind of fun and intriguing and results in great hair porn

I'm a 4c. mostly. my bangs and nape are oddly 3c to 4a.

The 4c does not define unless i practically use a 5oz jar of heavy product to weigh it down. Even when soaking wet (without product), it looks like dark brown cotton candy from a distance and up close as a whole. individually, the coils are probably coffee stirrer sized and smaller.

Unstretched styles for even 5 days can mean a mini set back due to the sheer number of SSK. retention is near impossible (it's very fine too) though I think I've gotten it under control finally. also my hair shrinks to about 3 inches and it's SL to CBL.

wash day is this weekend. if I remember I'll take pics wet and dry.

this lady is certainly 4c. like me

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I AM A FAN OF THIS GIRL! I tried her big bouncy curls setting method last night and it's the truth! So quick and simple too.

Tefnut said:

Wonder if she had a keratine treatment or something else done to loosen her curl pattern?

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Maybe but if so then it would make sense to mention it if she's giving tips on how to grow hair long based on her hair journey. Plus her roots would still be kinky.

I understand how treatments can affect curl pattern because I've have done a few to my hair (bleaching, flat ironing and henna) so hair is probably a mixture of all type 4 patterns but mainly 4b esp now it's longer. I agree it does happen but it doesn't look like this. Her hair would not be so evenly defined.

It's just plain lies and I really don't get why lol.

sweethair said:

Again shrinkage and texture are two different things. I said before the pic I had a smoothing treatment. If not my hair coils have fallen to bottle of my ears. The smoothing treatment elongated my coils but there still coils. The front of my hairs heat damaged that's why it likes loose. Unfortunately I don't have old pics of my texture it was on my old phone. But my hair was like naturally high on YouTube, tight, tiny coiled hair. Doesnt reflex light even when heathly and mosturized. Has a sheen but doesnt shine. The diameter of my coils was like this--- O and smaller. If you look at the pic of my edges that's my texture. But even my treated hair i still has small coils you can see the texture especially in the back. Napp queen has curly hair with lots of shrinkage. But she still has curls her hair still smooths out and her baby hair is laid! That's not 4 c hair.

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To me she looks 4c. Her hair looks like mine at the roots. Her hair is also long so take that into account. For example napturals hair and napp queens hair look completely different in their wash day routines.

Bunnyhaslonghair said:

I wasn't looking at the looser texture on your head when I came to my conclusion. I read what you said about your loosened texture before I posted. Looking at your hair, the ends how they coil up, I don't see the coils being tighter than Napp Queens. They could even be looser. I think we can all agree Daphne Madyara is 4c and she has baby hair. She's not too into smoothing them particularly but you can see them in this pic:

The problem is you can't fit African hair into the 12 or so categories. I feel like the hair typing system negates hard work of some, and down right confuses others.

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On almost every hair texture, the baby hair is going to typically be finer. Now, for 4c hair, I believe the strands are fine but hair is very dense. Meaning find strands but overall thick density. And so I think 4c would mean extreme baby hair more so than 4a, 3a-3c unless any of these textures are fine. And then you add moisturizing the hair regularly and that is why the other posters hairline seems to lay down easier.

Tefnut said:

Wonder if she had a keratine treatment or something else done to loosen her curl pattern?

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Is the keratin treatment where they put the 450 degree heat in it to seal? I heard there was a treatment for Kerstin just in the shampoo. If there is a treatment without heat I'd be interested.

I honestly don't know much about keratin treatments. I've just heard from some stylists that these initial versions were extremely toxic, which is why some salons won't do them. Unsure if those types of treatments have been modified to be less toxic. Maybe someone else knows?

I have heard ladies on here talk about other (keratin?) conditioning treatments that strengthen the hair and may slightly loosen the curl pattern.

NICOLETHENUMBERONE said:

Is the keratin treatment where they put the 450 degree heat in it to seal? I heard there was a treatment for Kerstin just in the shampoo. If there is a treatment without heat I'd be interested.

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Well, I was trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. I'm with you as it seems very deceitful. How can people trust someone who will lie about something as simple as hair texture? Just admit you have 3c or 4a hair and keep it moving. People continuosly do the most.

ForestRose said:

Maybe but if so then it would make sense to mention it if she's giving tips on how to grow hair long based on her hair journey. Plus her roots would still be kinky.

I understand how treatments can affect curl pattern because I've have done a few to my hair (bleaching, flat ironing and henna) so hair is probably a mixture of all type 4 patterns but mainly 4b esp now it's longer. I agree it does happen but it doesn't look like this. Her hair would not be so evenly defined.

It's just plain lies and I really don't get why lol.

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beingofserenity said:

Can someone tell me if this would be 4b or 4c?

View attachment 392893

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https://www.andrewalkerhair.com/whats-my-hair-type/african-american-kinky-hair-types

According to the founder of these charts.

http://[QUOTE="beingofserenity, post: 23769929, member: 245220"]Can someone tell me if this would be 4b or 4c? [ATTACH=full]392893[/ATTACH][/QUOTE] Your hair is 4a, you obviously have ringlets and a curl pattern. Ladies let me say this 4b hair doesnt have curls at all the patern is a Z. I'm a mix of 4a/4b my 4b hair has no pattern. I could do that maximum hydration forever and my 4b hair still would have no curls in sight. Andre walked was right 4a curls can be as small as the point of the tip of a pin. (Thus being 4c) Thus 4c's are able to define their curls/coils. I get it the curls are so small that 4c was born. Plus hair that is tightly coiled and really dry that requires a lot of moisture. Women realized there were curls there but wanted curl/coil definition. That's when 4c was born. 4c's are truly 4a's if going by Andre's chart it's simple curl/coils or no curls. Coils can be more defined. And Z's can turn to a S with a texlaxer or heat training. So it's a matter of identifying the products, hairstyles and techniques of someone with hair like yours. I like to look up 4c because my hair is extremely dry in the middle. I have a mix of small coils or according to Andre 4a and 4c as defined by the new natural subgroup. I'm a 4b/c a mix of z pattern, and with few 4c coils in the middle and edges. Mainly 4b though. [QUOTE="beingofserenity, post: 23769929, member: 245220"]Can someone tell me if this would be 4b or 4c? [ATTACH=full]392893[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
Your hair is 4a, you obviously have ringlets and a curl pattern. Ladies, let me say this 4b hair doesn't have curls at all.

Before 4c was created, I considered myself a mix of 4a/4b, my 4b hair has no pattern. I could do maximum hydration, and try every product under the sun and my 4b hair still would have no natural curls. Andre Walker was right 4a curls can be as small as the point of the tip of a pin. (Thus being 4c)

4c's are able to define their curls/coils. I get it the curls are so small that 4c was born. Plus 4c hair is tightly coiled and really dry and requires a lot of moisture. Women realized there were curls/coils there but wanted definition and moisture. That's when 4c was born. 4c's are truly 4a's if going by Andre's chart it's simple curl/coils or no curls. Coils can be more defined. And Z's can turn to a S with a texlaxer or heat training.

So it's a matter of identifying the products, hairstyles and techniques of someone with hair like yours. I like to look up 4c because my hair is extremely dry in the middle. I have a mix of small coils or according to Andre 4a or (4c as defined by the new natural subgroup).

Now I'm realizing I'm a mix of 4b/c, Z and S patterns, with mainly 4b in the middle and some but very few 4c tight ringlets in the middle and perimeter.

I know this is confusing but it's hard out here for a dry mainly 4b and a little 4c (no curls) so I seek out 4c videos for styles and products for moisture. But me having the definition some 4c's are able to attain with maximum hydration, is a no go.

So I call all 4c's, 4a's cause Andre is the founder of this chart, and he told no lies you can't define curls/coils that don't exist.

4c is mainly about the size of a 4a curl and wether its coiled tightly. I know a very silky 4a, with some curls/coils the size of a pen tip, who according to these charts would be 4c. She has no problems with definition and her coils/curls are tight and some are looser. She doesn't use a boatload of product yet she has very small beautiful curls/coils/corkscrews.

You can be a dry and undefined 4a or a silky defined size of a pin spring 4c. (Which according to Andre 4c and 4a are one in the same) But the tighter curl requires more work and moisture.

I'm on board with this 4c subtype. It was well needed to help identify some of the issues we ladies have with the drynes of 4b/4c hair. Also the lack of definition.

The updated chart

sweethair said:

This is what true 4c hair looks like wet, Keep in mind this is after a smoothing treatment. I normally would have more shrinkage. There are tiny coils and z patterns throughout View attachment 392933 this is what my hair looks like with conditioner. I have heat damage in the front of my hair. The only reason you see my coils somewhat enlongated is because of the smoothing treatment. View attachment 392935

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You're not a true 4c, you have more curls/coils, and Z patterns as z's are 4b. So you would be 4c/4b cause you have more 4c patterns than 4b.

sweethair said:

Her hair is beautiful!! But that's not 4c hair, its 4b. Her edges and her wash video you can see her curls. 4c hair has tiny coils or z patterns. It's so textured it doesn't reflex light even when moisturized. Her hair isn't like that she has defined curls. It's very hard to find true 4c youtubers. dephne madyara, protective princess and naturally high have true 4c hair. I'm sure there are more. But most are claiming 4c for the likes.

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Z patterns are 4b any curl/coil is 4a or 4c. So she is 4c texture if you define 4c as Z patterns and coils. Moisture, silkiness, light reflection, softness and texture varies from person to person. Plus some people have multiple textures on their head a coil has curl potential. So her edges can just be looser coils, like mines.

rileypak said:

4A maybe?
The majority of my hair looks similar to hers

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She is a solid moisturized silky 4a. Some 4a's will never achieve definition like hers. Because hair properties vary from person to person.

ABC 10 yrs deep and the alphabet soup that is hair typing still baffles me! ...and many of you too I see! Why do we continue to subscribe to this shady, derogatory description of our hair? I have nappy hair. The likes of which I have not seen on any other Black person. Hair typing confuses me especially with multiple textures existing in one head.

@HairNinja
The fact that I can see her curl pattern when she wets and conditioned hair confirmed it for me. The coils and patterns for for 4c or 4b whatever you want to call it, it would be so tiny you wouldn't able to see it her wash video. Her hair is more defined larger and her natural styles are smooth. Now if y'all want to tell me based on my treated hair that I'm not 4bc that's fine. Before I got my smoothing treatment my coils were tiny. Thats why i have no pics of it loose. When it got to a certain lenght i had to keep it stretched 99% of the time. I would do a braid out and it would look like naturally high or dephane both are waist length. I never understood why because my hair was soft. Then it was explained to me that since the coils or textures are so tiny it never really is smooth enough to get that shine the other textures get when they do natural styles. People that have my texture hair know that stuggle. Like I also said the system is flawed. I don't know what napp queens texture is but I wouldn't say it's the same as the other true 4c youtubers I mentioned.

I identify as 4c. I'll post my hair after and you can let me know what you think.

These are people that I consider having 4c hair. I tend to look at the cottony vs. silky aspect and then the tightness of the curls. I think that 4c hair tends to be more shiny when the person has course hair since there is more surface area for the light to reflect off of. My fine to medium strands tends to look dull, unless by some miracle I use the right oil and it it just freshly washed and the light is at a certain strength...you get my drift...

Igbocurls

Naturally High

Taiwo Kafilat

Simply Comfort

discodumpling said:

ABC 10 yrs deep and the alphabet soup that is hair typing still baffles me! ...and many of you too I see! Why do we continue to subscribe to this shady, derogatory description of our hair? I have nappy hair. The likes of which I have not seen on any other Black person. Hair typing confuses me especially with multiple textures existing in one head.

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I don't think hair typing by in itself is bad. There's nothing derogatory in looking at hair and saying I think it's in this group so here's a starting point on how to care for it. It the policing of it is an issue. That's when it gets too serious. I like videos saying if they are 4 whatever. Then I look and see if there is anything similar. I do think the chart should just be 1, 2 , 3 , 4. I think Mizanis chart is more representative of our hair.

So here is my hair. The only thing that I don't have a picture of is a strand of shed hair from the shower. They can coil up to the diameter of a pen spring, but I find that now that I've got some length they appear elongated (when on my head).

The first pic is from a couple of years ago, right after a shower.
The next one is after a clay wash at around the same time.
The last two pictures are from a couple of weeks ago. One with the clay in and the other after it is rinsed out.

From what I understand 4c coils and zigzags are smaller than that of 4a and b. Not sure if that's agreed upon or not.

@CurlyMoo
Please see Snoop's post above.

@snoop
Silky vs cottony
You hit the nail on the head!!!

That's what I was trying to get across. Napp queen has a silkiness to her hair texture. I still believe her texture is looser then my hair preteatment. I see what y'all are saying maybe she has multiple Textures on her head. but the other YouTubers that have cottony hair. They have healthy waist-length hair but they don't have that silkiness/shine. Napp queen doesn't have any braidouts on her YouTube. But her braids out/roller set you can see the silkiness of her hair.
***Edited added her braidout pic

Napp queens hair is amazing! Top 3 best hair I've seen on YouTube. But she doesn't have the same texture as the ladies in the braidouts/twistout


Vs

discodumpling said:

ABC 10 yrs deep and the alphabet soup that is hair typing still baffles me! ...and many of you too I see! Why do we continue to subscribe to this shady, derogatory description of our hair? I have nappy hair. The likes of which I have not seen on any other Black person. Hair typing confuses me especially with multiple textures existing in one head.

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Aww I don't find it derogatory.
Honestly finding other people that identify with my hair's characteristics (fine, 4bc, lopo, cottony) has helped me to find the best techniques and products for my moisture and retention goals.

Of course no two heads of hair are identical, but understanding what works and does not work for my hair type gave me a base to start.

It's also nice to see what works and does not work for other similar heads of hair so I can avoid making the mistakes that they made.

My siblings and Mom have looser hair patterns than mine, and totally different hair characteristics, and unfortunately I could not just do what they do and flourish.

YvetteWithJoy said:

What would you all consider Naptural85's main hair type to be?

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4a