Major Hair Help Needed For Friend: Please Advise (thank You, In Advance)

YvetteWithJoy

YvetteWithJoy

On break
I have a friend who is in tears right now over her hair. I really want to help, but I don't think what works for my hair works for hers (I've been sharing my techniques with her for awhile). What do you guys think she should try?

Here's the situation (in her words):

I have been experiencing extreme tangling throughout every step of my washday process. I pre poo, detangle, shampoo and DC in sections. My hair tangles no matter what I do or product I use. This has resulted in knotted ends and I have to literally rip through my hair, especially the ends.

I am beyond frustrating and at this point I don’t know what the problem is and what to do. I washed my hair today and I lost so much hair and there were broken pieces everywhere.

How did you fix your tangling issue? I just don’t know what to do at this point. My hair is dry after deep conditioning and actually feels stripped upon rinsing.

I just trimmed so I know that’s not the problem. My hair tangles from the root to tip. I am beyond frustrated and tired. I’m crying . . .

----

Porosity: Normal
Last trim: October

Pre-poo: Moisturizing conditioner added to dry hair for about 30 minutes. Spray hair with water, detangle in sections, twist and secure with goody ouchless barrette (do this for all four sections). Hair is still tangled upon rinsing out to proceed to shampooing.

Shampoo: The Mane Choice Halo. Tangles more after.

DC: Soultanicals Afrotastic. Upon rinsing, my hair is extremely tangled and dry. My ends are knotted and it is almost impossible to detangle. When I do, it takes forever and I loose so much hair (breakage and shedding). My hair feels squeaky after deep conditioning and this along with the knots and tangling happens no matter what DC I use.

I apply leave in, cream and oil to style but my hair is still dry after.​

------------------------

So what do you think, guys? What could be the cause? She has clarified before to get a fresh start, and she has trimmed, so that's not it.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. I told her I'd make this thread and that she should be able to watch in on the responses.

:thankyou:
 
E

Evolving78

Well-Known Member
Ask her does she have hard water?
That was my main issue. No matter what I did, or good quality products I used, my hair was tangled, matted, dry, and breaking.

If that’s an issue, tell her to get a shower filter, or a sink facet filter, and get a chelating shampoo, then follow with a moisturizing shampoo. Deep conditioner as usual.
 
11228

11228

Well-Known Member
YvetteWithJoy said:
I have a friend who is in tears right now over her hair. I really want to help, but I don't think what works for my hair works for hers (I've been sharing my techniques with her for awhile). What do you guys think she should try?

Here's the situation (in her words):

I have been experiencing extreme tangling throughout every step of my washday process. I pre poo, detangle, shampoo and DC in sections. My hair tangles no matter what I do or product I use. This has resulted in knotted ends and I have to literally rip through my hair, especially the ends.

I am beyond frustrating and at this point I don’t know what the problem is and what to do. I washed my hair today and I lost so much hair and there were broken pieces everywhere.

How did you fix your tangling issue? I just don’t know what to do at this point. My hair is dry after deep conditioning and actually feels stripped upon rinsing.

I just trimmed so I know that’s not the problem. My hair tangles from the root to tip. I am beyond frustrated and tired. I’m crying . . .

----

Porosity: Normal
Last trim: October

Pre-poo: Moisturizing conditioner added to dry hair for about 30 minutes. Spray hair with water, detangle in sections, twist and secure with goody ouchless barrette (do this for all four sections). Hair is still tangled upon rinsing out to proceed to shampooing.

Shampoo: The Mane Choice Halo. Tangles more after.

DC: Soultanicals Afrotastic. Upon rinsing, my hair is extremely tangled and dry. My ends are knotted and it is almost impossible to detangle. When I do, it takes forever and I loose so much hair (breakage and shedding). My hair feels squeaky after deep conditioning and this along with the knots and tangling happens no matter what DC I use.

I apply leave in, cream and oil to style but my hair is still dry after.​

------------------------

So what do you think, guys? What could be the cause? She has clarified before to get a fresh start, and she has trimmed, so that's not it.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. I told her I'd make this thread and that she should be able to watch in on the responses.

:thankyou:
Click to expand...

My heart goes out to her.

Is she natural or relaxed? She should look into straightening her hair in some fashion if she a natural. She’ll be able to better manage her hair.
 
nurseN98

nurseN98

Ayiti cherie
shortdub78 said:
Ask her does she have hard water?
That was my main issue. No matter what I did, or good quality products I used, my hair was tangled, matted, dry, and breaking.

If that’s an issue, tell her to get a shower filter, or a sink facet filter, and get a chelating shampoo, then follow with a moisturizing shampoo. Deep conditioner as usual.
Click to expand...
Yes, this was my exact situation too. I lost a loooot of hair before I figured it out. In fact, that is how I found lhcf...I used distilled, bottled water at first then I found a good shower filter. I second the chelating shampoo. I used Elucence but there are others.
 
curlicarib

curlicarib

Lovin'' All of Me
pH is EVERYTHING.

pH greater than 7.0 opens the hair cuticles which will cause tangles if they are not closed. pH less than 7.0 closes and smoothes the hair cuticles (less/no tangles)

Purchase pH testing strips (any pet shop that sells fish supplies/pool supply shop/ Walmart/Kmart/etc) and test every hair product that she owns. Put the pH on the container in bold, non-erasing marker.

pH greater than 7.0 - shampoos
- opens cuticles and allows hair to be properly cleaned

pH 7.0 (neutral) - conditioners
- provides moisture

pH less than 7.0 - finishers
- closes cuticles and seals in moisture
- the best finisher I've ever used is John Frieda Clear Glaze (pH 5.5), closes cuticles and leaves hair smooth and shiny. Roux also makes a nice finisher but I haven't used it in ages so I don't know if they still make it.
- ETA: They do, it's called Roux Porosity Control - pH 4.5

As mentioned above, she should check and see if she has hard water and get a water filter if she does. She should also clarify/chelate if needed.
 
Last edited:
N

naturalyogini

Well-Known Member
What porosity does she have? If high porosity, then products need to be in 3.5 to 5.5 range. As someone else said pH every thing (except oils and butters) that go on your head.

Slip, slip and more slip. Slippy shampoo, DC and leave in. No slip, toss it.

Most natural products don't work on my HP hair. She may have to go the silicone route. MJ rapid recovery or sweetback...
Inahsi shampoo is very moisturizing.
 
D

douglala

Well-Known Member
I second the hard water. This is what I experienced when I move to a place with hard water. Nothing helped especially when you’re doing your final rinse with the hard water.

Like the other posters mentioned. The chelating shampoo will get rid of the mineral buildup and the shower filter. Even with that I still did my final rinse with a gallon jug of distilled water.
 
YvetteWithJoy

YvetteWithJoy

On break
I used to have her same issue, and I don't anyone any more, and I did so many things that I can't pinpoint any particular reason.

The first protein treatment I did seems to have changed EVERYTHING. I was finally able to retain moisture. Well, she tried that and got severe tangling.

I got my water tested. It's hard. So I got a shower filter and a chelating shampoo. I'm assuming this helped, because I don't have ANY of the dryness issues I used to not be able to escape.

However, I've also hopped around trying all sorts of products. I couldn't say which has improved the condition of my hair.

I don't know why my hair no longer re-tangles furiously during wash day. One thing is, my shampoo bar leaves a film on my hair, and my detangling product leaves my hair super smooth. I either use Curl Junkie Smoothing (RO) or Curl Junkie Smoothing Lotion to detangle with, and I'm gravy.

I have never looked at pH. I should. Guess I have been lucky there.

I would mail her a product gift bag if I knew what would work.
 
Last edited:
P

PJaye

Well-Known Member
Not to be a nuisance, but it would help to know exactly what products she used, when she used them and what order they were used. For me, ingredients/additives are an invaluable resource when solving a hair equation. For instance, the term "protein treatment" is ambiguous and can mean many things until the ingredient list has been identified, e.g., reconstructor #1 with wheat protein vs reconstructor #2 with collagen protein. All protein treatments aren't created equal.

Persistent and extreme tangling can be caused by a number of issues. When it happened to me, I was forced to keep my hair as smooth and un-manipulated as possible while I identified the source of my problem. Some things that served to help mitigate the issue were:

- Braiding and manipulating only in the most careful of circumstances, e.g., cleansing using slow, deliberate smoothing motions from root to tip rather than scrubbing, scrunching or vigorously rubbing
- Never twisting my hair; and never braiding it all the way down to the ends because those are surefire recipes for disaster (instead, I left 2-3 inches unbraided and smoothed them out with a thick, creamy LI and/or heavy butter, which is my version of heavy sealing)
- Substituting the thick, creamy LIs and heavy oils for a slimy, slippery LI and light softening oil as my finishing products (the thicker ones clumped the hair and made it stick together, which facilitated tangles and knots up and down the strands; but the slimy, lighter ones smoothed and kept the hairs separate, yet together...if that makes sense)
- Switching to softening and moisturizing cleansing conditioners with phenomenal slip; the only shampoo I used was a chelator every six or so weeks. Chelating is important!
- Ditching the protein treatments/reconstructors in favor of balancing DCs (they gave my hair the kick it needed without the massive tangles, knots and dryness I received from the others)
- A nice trim
- Pre-pooing on dry hair with a moisturizing DC that has a sick amount of slip (optional and only done in the most Saharan of circumstances; the best ones are dominican DCs)
- Only using a wide toothed comb
- Trading in the Goody Ouchless barrettes for large snap clips (for a firmer, more secure hold to prevent tangles; once I'd detangled and smoothed the hair, I needed it to stay in that state until the next step)
- Using hotter water instead of lukewarm or cool
- Limited styling to two Pippi Longstocking braids (and the subsequent braid-outs they created) in order to control manipulation to prevent tangling and knotting
- Only using the dopest DCs on the block

No offense, but Afrotastic and TMC ain't dope enough for the job. IMO, she needs some heavy hitters, especially since her hair is consistently dry and feels squeaky upon rinsing. I totally understand your friend's frustration and despair, which is why I advocate for a thorough analysis of her products and technique. Tell her to hang on. She's not alone because she has hair crime fighters all across the globe who are willing to offer their input and support on her behalf.
 
YvetteWithJoy

YvetteWithJoy

On break
PJaye said:
Not to be a nuisance, but it would help to know exactly what products she used, when she used them and what order they were used. For me, ingredients/additives are an invaluable resource when solving a hair equation. For instance, the term "protein treatment" is ambiguous and can mean many things until the ingredient list has been identified, e.g., reconstructor #1 with wheat protein vs reconstructor #2 with collagen protein. All protein treatments aren't created equal.

Persistent and extreme tangling can be caused by a number of issues. When it happened to me, I was forced to keep my hair as smooth and un-manipulated as possible while I identified the source of my problem. Some things that served to help mitigate the issue were:

- Braiding and manipulating only in the most careful of circumstances, e.g., cleansing using slow, deliberate smoothing motions from root to tip rather than scrubbing, scrunching or vigorously rubbing
- Never twisting my hair; and never braiding it all the way down to the ends because those are surefire recipes for disaster (instead, I left 2-3 inches unbraided and smoothed them out with a thick, creamy LI and/or heavy butter, which is my version of heavy sealing)
- Substituting the thick, creamy LIs and heavy oils for a slimy, slippery LI and light softening oil as my finishing products (the thicker ones clumped the hair and made it stick together, which facilitated tangles and knots up and down the strands; but the slimy, lighter ones smoothed and kept the hairs separate, yet together...if that makes sense)
- Switching to softening and moisturizing cleansing conditioners with phenomenal slip; the only shampoo I used was a chelator every six or so weeks. Chelating is important!
- Ditching the protein treatments/reconstructors in favor of balancing DCs (they gave my hair the kick it needed without the massive tangles, knots and dryness I received from the others)
- A nice trim
- Pre-pooing on dry hair with a moisturizing DC that has a sick amount of slip (optional and only done in the most Saharan of circumstances; the best ones are dominican DCs)
- Only using a wide toothed comb
- Trading in the Goody Ouchless barrettes for large snap clips (for a firmer, more secure hold to prevent tangles; once I'd detangled and smoothed the hair, I needed it to stay in that state until the next step)
- Using hotter water instead of lukewarm or cool
- Limited styling to two Pippi Longstocking braids (and the subsequent braid-outs they created) in order to control manipulation to prevent tangling and knotting
- Only using the dopest DCs on the block

No offense, but Afrotastic and TMC ain't dope enough for the job. IMO, she needs some heavy hitters, especially since her hair is consistently dry and feels squeaky upon rinsing. I totally understand your friend's frustration and despair, which is why I advocate for a thorough analysis of her products and technique. Tell her to hang on. She's not alone because she has hair crime fighters all across the globe who are willing to offer their input and support on her behalf.
Click to expand...

Many thanks, all!

@PJaye, no offense taken! :lol:

I'll try to gather more details and then come back and report.

@PJaye, what would you consider to be several heavy duty/hitting DCs? TIA!
 
mzteaze

mzteaze

Pilates and Yoga Kinda Gal
When my ends tangled like that, the main thing that helped me was correcting my protein and moisture balance. For a very long time, I used Roux Porosity Control as a midstep between shampoo & conditioner. That was followed REGULAR & CONSISTENT protein and moisture conditioners. There really is no quick & easy remedy.

Did she trim her own hair or have it done by a professional?
 
YvetteWithJoy

YvetteWithJoy

On break
mzteaze said:
When my ends tangled like that, the main thing that helped me was correcting my protein and moisture balance. For a very long time, I used Roux Porosity Control as a midstep between shampoo & conditioner. That was followed REGULAR & CONSISTENT protein and moisture conditioners. There really is no quick & easy remedy.

Did she trim her own hair or have it done by a professional?
Click to expand...

I'll ask.

I'm out of pocket until 11 AM or so today, but after that I'll contact her and see what she says about everyone's questions.

Thanks so much, everyone!!!
 
YvetteWithJoy

YvetteWithJoy

On break
Here are all of her answers to your questions so far!

Thanks again, everyone.

--------------

Her responses

I really appreciate it.

I'm going to answer in order:

Most asked about my porosity:

It is normal. I am natural.

shortdub78 said:

Ask her does she have hard water? If that’s an issue, tell her to get a shower filter, or a sink facet filter, and get a chelating shampoo, then follow with a moisturizing shampoo.

Answer: I have been told my city doesn't have hard water. I still purchased a shower filter (Culligan Brand) in September, no change. The last time I clarified, which was in October, I used a Nexxus shampoo which contains sulfates. No change. I have never tried a chelating shampoo. What chelating shampoo is recommended?

PJaye said:

Also, when was the last time her hair had a dose of protein and a trim? What are the specific product names of each product? It would help to know exactly what products she used, when she used them and what order they were used.

The last time I used protein (Komaza) was in August. I used Mielle Organics Babassu about a month ago. My last trim was in October (by a professional).

Products currently using:

Pre-poo: Any moisturizing deep conditioner that didn't work for me and I'm trying to use. I let it sit for about 30 minutes and detangle in four sections. I rinse off and then proceed to shampoo.

Shampoo: The Mane Choice Heavenly Halo

DC: Soultanicals Afrotastic

Leave-In: Soultanicals Candy Fluff

Cream: Curls Blueberry Twisting Cream

Oil: Jojoba

Style: Flat twists.

Once a month I use a protein DC. I thought Komaza was too strong because I had tangles, breakage and knotting after I used it (the last time being August). I used Mielle Organics Babassu about a month ago.

mzteaze asked:

Did she trim her own hair or have it done by a professional?

By a professional. She blew my hair out to do the trim.

Nikkiluv254 asked:

Is she using heat when she DCs?

I always use heat (a soft bonnet dryer) for 30 minutes.
 
E

Evolving78

Well-Known Member
The only thing I could think of is how and when she detangles
To try some different conditioning products (cones maybe useful for added slip).
And she doesn’t sound like she needs to do another protein treatment.
 
classychic1908

classychic1908

Well-Known Member
Aloe Vera does wonders for smoothing my hair strands as well as a slippery heavy gel. I use gel to seal instead of oil and it smooths my hair strands, encourages clumps, and makes my hair less likely to tangle badly. On day two I use aloe glycerine mix in a spray bottle to soften the crunch of the stiff gel and remoisturize as needed.

Sealing with most oils and butters, leaves my hair dry, oily, and frizzy. Has she tried removing the oil and even the cream from her routine to see how her hair responds?
 
YvetteWithJoy

YvetteWithJoy

On break
classychic1908 said:
Aloe Vera does wonders for smoothing my hair strands as well as a slippery heavy gel. I use gel to seal instead of oil and it smooths my hair strands, encourages clumps, and makes my hair less likely to tangle badly. On day two I use aloe glycerine mix in a spray bottle to soften the crunch of the stiff gel and remoisturize as needed.

Sealing with most oils and butters, leaves my hair dry, oily, and frizzy. Has she tried removing the oil and even the cream from her routine to see how her hair responds?
Click to expand...

:yep:

See, I want to recommend Chicoro's prepoo method to her. It's a two-step process: Saturate hair in AVJ that contains a little oil, then saturate the hair in warmed coconut oil. I apply both steps in a downward, strand-smoothing motion . . . tiny, tiny section by tiny, tiny section.

If I twist my hair up this way and leave it in overnight, my hair is SUPER drenched with moisture. Then I can use a very slippery detangler on top to detangle. Then I can wash and DC, carefully retwisting as I go.

A few times I've tested only FINGER DETANGLING until just before styling. Then only once prepooing, cleansing, and DCing are done, just before styling, I use a tool to fully detangle. In other words, I've tried not concerning myself with fully detangling until just before styling.

Both ways work for me.

One time my cuticles on my strands were raised and wouldn't lay down. Tangling was INSANE. Until they got smoothed down, NOTHING else worked. It took lots of effort over several days to get my cuticle behavior back right.
 
Soaring Eagle

Soaring Eagle

Singin’ the praises of the baggy method
I am no expert and I've only been natural for a little over a year, but I have experienced some of the things mentioned.

Although, most of hair is medium/normal porosity, the ends are high porosity and I would always get tangles when I do braids or twists. No matter how much I trimmed, and did protein treatments, my ends still tangled. Now, I haven't been able to completely stop them from tangling, but I have been able to minimize them and I've never stopped retaining length because of it.

I agree with the posts that talk about her needing products with slip-- slippery cleanser, slippery dc, slippery leave in, etc. If she implements some of the tips given, and still is not able to stop the tangles, I suggest she roll her ends. That's what I do on every wash day. I use my Curl squad Rollers every single wash day. After applying my leave in and oil, I braid my hair (I have about 11 loose braids), roll the ends on the rollers and allow them to try. After they have dried, I bantu knot my ends. I learned these techniques from youtubers who have had the same issues: NappyHeadedJojoba, and Protective Princess (the maker of the rollers I use).

These are the videos that really help me, and I hope they help her and anyone else:



Couldn't find the exact video from Protective Princess, but this one gives similar tips:

 
P

PJaye

Well-Known Member
YvetteWithJoy said:
Many thanks, all!

@PJaye, no offense taken! :lol:

I'll try to gather more details and then come back and report.

@PJaye, what would you consider to be several heavy duty/hitting DCs? TIA!
Click to expand...

I apologize for my late reply. For me, the consistent heavy hitters are:

Alikay Avocado Hair Mask
APB Ayurvedic Mud Mask
APB Not Easily Broken DC
APB White Chocolate Mask (discontinued *pours out a lil likka*)
Bee Mine Bee-U-tiful DC
CRN Algae Renew DC
Curl Origin Overnight Mask
DB Pumpkin Seed DC (discontinued *weeps softly*)
Mielle Babassu DC
Miss Jessie’s Rapid Recovery DC
Miss Jessie’s Super Sweetback DC
NG Herbal Blends DC
NG Mango & Coconut Water DC
NG Marshmallow Root & Slippery Elm DC
NG Jamaica Me Crazy DC

Given your recent update, I think your friend needs a complete overhaul of products, especially the Soultanicals stuff (because they're not good). I also think that she should lay off the flat twists until she gets the tangling and dryness under control. I hope that your friend isn't flipping her hair backwards and forwards in a sink while cleansing and conditioning because that, too, is a recipe for disaster. Also, be careful with the aloe and EVCO because it performs differently with each individual. That stuff will jack up my hair in a NY minute; it makes it hard, rough, tangled and matted.
 
YvetteWithJoy

YvetteWithJoy

On break
No offense taken!

She is normal porosity. A "famous," widely respected hair stylist assessed this, IIRC. She knows the difference between the terms "normal" and "natural." Thanks for checking!
 
nymane

nymane

Well-Known Member
curlicarib said:
pH is EVERYTHING.

pH greater than 7.0 opens the hair cuticles which will cause tangles if they are not closed. pH less than 7.0 closes and smoothes the hair cuticles (less/no tangles)

Purchase pH testing strips (any pet shop that sells fish supplies/pool supply shop/ Walmart/Kmart/etc) and test every hair product that she owns. Put the pH on the container in bold, non-erasing marker.

pH greater than 7.0 - shampoos
- opens cuticles and allows hair to be properly cleaned

pH 7.0 (neutral) - conditioners
- provides moisture

pH less than 7.0 - finishers
- closes cuticles and seals in moisture
- the best finisher I've ever used is John Frieda Clear Glaze (pH 5.5), closes cuticles and leaves hair smooth and shiny. Roux also makes a nice finisher but I haven't used it in ages so I don't know if they still make it.
- ETA: They do, it's called Roux Porosity Control - pH 4.5

As mentioned above, she should check and see if she has hard water and get a water filter if she does. She should also clarify/chelate if needed.
Click to expand...

Totally agree - pH is everything!

I'd also recommend Joico Conditioners/DCs/Protein Treatments which all range from 3.5 - 5.5

Sojourn beauty has very gentle shampoos - all of their products range from 3.5 - 5.5 as well.
 
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