Can someone who doesn't believe that Jesus is God be a Christian?

[BabeinChrist]

I believe in the Trinity. God the father, God the Son, and God they Holy Spirit.

 

[mkh_77]

. . . standing on the principles of God's word. Thank you!!

Actually, you are standing on the principles of your personal beliefs and your interpretation of God's word. Additionally, you are relegating those who don't believe as you do to a non-entity. I've witnessed you and others do it time and time again in other posts. So, thank you!

None of us know the exact translation and inspiration of the scriptures because:

1. Many of the scriptures were inspired writings of men;
2. Many of the scriptures no longer exist, and
3. Of the scriptures that do exist, very few people understand the true translation because those scriptures are in a sense, time sensitive. They were written in a time that is very different from the society we live in.

As a Christian you (generally speaking) should realize that you are in no position to judge others, but it seems as if that teaching is lost in many threads in this particular forum, and it is seeping out to other forums.

There is a very nasty vibe that smacks of elitism in this thread and often times in this forum, and I don't think that it will bring any new people to Christ. I've stated before that if I weren't firm in my relationship with God, I wouldn't pursue it any further after reading some of the things written in this forum.

So, for all of you "Christians" who continue to separate yourselves from people who aren't good enough for you because they don't believe exactly what you believe or want to take your word as the gospel truth, don't be surprised when people don't come to God on account of your example.

ETA: Please don't suggest that I go and talk to someone who "knows" the Word and who has "sound doctrine." I know the Word, and I have sound doctrine as Religion was one of my majors in college. I made sure I was the first to sign up for the Historical Jesus class taught by the Faculty head who also happened to be an ordained minister. I also took several Old Testament and New Testament classes as well, not to mention I have always been very active in my church.

 

[TJD3]

EbonyEyes: There's a website called freeminds.org that has lots of information about witnessing to JW's. Many years ago, I used to subscribe to the newletter Randy Watters started after he left that organization. Your post made me search for him again. Thank you for that!

TJD3: For so many years we as Christians have relied on what "someone else" has told us about Jesus and the Bible and we have not taken the time to do the study ourselves. The Good news is that God gave us His word to "make Him known" to us. So it's purpose is to reveal God to us. The Bible has to be read both for it's spiritual truth, historical accuracy and cultural context. We read our translations as modern day Americans and not as those who lived at that time. Many of the things that seem questionable to us where plain in the context of the time and the culture of that day. So when we come to the Bible we already have some homework to do. Most of us for example aren't raised in Jewish households with Jewish customs so the context of many things He says is lost on us.

You mention that Jesus never says He was God, however it is clear that everyone around Him, especially the Jewish hierarchy at that time understood clearly that He was in fact directly making that claim. The "crime" that got Him crucified was blasphemy-- making Himself equal with God. (John 8:57-59; John10:30-33) Throughout the NT, Jesus ascribes to Himself all of the qualities of God...He allows others to worship Him (Mt 28:9 for example, He says that He is our Redeemer (see Ps 130.7,8 and compare Acts 2028; the great "I AM" (compare Ex 3:14, Deut. 32:39 , Isaiah 43:10 to John 8:24, John 8:28 and John 18:4-6).

There's more of course but what I've learned throughout my walk with the Lord is the truth of that scripture that says that we will find Him if we seek Him with all of our hearts. Just as we had to study to learn our subjects in school, we have to study God's word. We need good pastors but we also have a personal responsibility in this. The issue you mention about Jesus as God is the core question in Christianity. It is one I have struggled some with in the past. I have gone from "blind" faith believer, to somewhat of a doubter, to a strong "open eyed" worshipper because if all His word says about Him is true, I owe Him a great debt. If it's false, then I am still lost and dead in my sins and Jesus was a misguided though very nice man. So for me it became a "crisis" of faith that has resulted in a greater understanding of the magnitude of His sacrifice for us.

I truly appreciate your post, the best Ive seen! I agree withyour method of study, because that is how I try to approach it. What people of the time thought, and their customs. What did it for me me was when you said that His crime was what upset the Pharasees and your right, He never denied it! I like that example because I often find when people would question our Lord on something that was incorrect He did not hesitate to correct them . Thank you for that bit of info. Im going to do some study today, and ask God for some direction and spiritual food. A sister has been starving lately for many different reasons. I just ask that you all please pray for me. Believe me when I say, I do love my Jesus, I know He is something more than special. Thank you.

 

[TJD3]

Actually, you are standing on the principles of your personal beliefs and your interpretation of God's word. Additionally, you are relegating those who don't believe as you do to a non-entity. I've witnessed you and others do it time and time again in other posts. So, thank you!

None of us know the exact translation and inspiration of the scriptures because:

1. Many of the scriptures were inspired writings of men;
2. Many of the scriptures no longer exist, and
3. Of the scriptures that do exist, very few people understand the true translation because those scriptures are in a sense, time sensitive. They were written in a time that is very different from the society we live in.

As a Christian you (generally speaking) should realize that you are in no position to judge others, but it seems as if that teaching is lost in many threads in this particular forum, and it is seeping out to other forums.

There is a very nasty vibe that smacks of elitism in this thread and often times in this forum, and I don't think that it will bring any new people to Christ. I've stated before that if I weren't firm in my relationship with God, I wouldn't pursue it any further after reading some of the things written in this forum.

So, for all of you "Christians" who continue to separate yourselves from people who aren't good enough for you because they don't believe exactly what you believe or want to take your word as the gospel truth, don't be surprised when people don't come to God on account of your example.

ETA: Please don't suggest that I go and talk to someone who "knows" the Word and who has "sound doctrine." I know the Word, and I have sound doctrine as Religion was one of my majors in college. I made sure I was the first to sign up for the Historical Jesus class taught by the Faculty head who also happened to be an ordained minister. I also took several Old Testament and New Testament classes as well, not to mention I have always been very active in my church.

Yup, yup! That is why I appreciate Tamsins post, sister gave something small and it opened up some questions for me. Thats what I look for when being shown new things, minus all the other rhetoric.

 

[star]

Actually, you are standing on the principles of your personal beliefs and your interpretation of God's word. Additionally, you are relegating those who don't believe as you do to a non-entity. I've witnessed you and others do it time and time again in other posts. So, thank you!

None of us know the exact translation and inspiration of the scriptures because:

1. Many of the scriptures were inspired writings of men;
2. Many of the scriptures no longer exist, and
3. Of the scriptures that do exist, very few people understand the true translation because those scriptures are in a sense, time sensitive. They were written in a time that is very different from the society we live in.

As a Christian you (generally speaking) should realize that you are in no position to judge others, but it seems as if that teaching is lost in many threads in this particular forum, and it is seeping out to other forums.

There is a very nasty vibe that smacks of elitism in this thread and often times in this forum, and I don't think that it will bring any new people to Christ. I've stated before that if I weren't firm in my relationship with God, I wouldn't pursue it any further after reading some of the things written in this forum.

So, for all of you "Christians" who continue to separate yourselves from people who aren't good enough for you because they don't believe exactly what you believe or want to take your word as the gospel truth, don't be surprised when people don't come to God on account of your example.

ETA: Please don't suggest that I go and talk to someone who "knows" the Word and who has "sound doctrine." I know the Word, and I have sound doctrine as Religion was one of my majors in college. I made sure I was the first to sign up for the Historical Jesus class taught by the Faculty head who also happened to be an ordained minister. I also took several Old Testament and New Testament classes as well, not to mention I have always been very active in my church.

Quote from:mkh_77 "So, for all of you "Christians" who continue to separate yourselves from people who aren't good enough for you because they don't believe exactly what you believe or want to take your word as the gospel truth, don't be surprised when people don't come to God on account of your example."

Who said this? Please do no bring the wrong spirit in. Nobody was directly anything to you. The question again was for the person who asked it. We here know how to agree to disagree in Love and nobody here has these feeling coming in this discussion. Some of us have been here for awhile and never seperate ourselves from anyone. Recieve the information in spirit in which it is intended. The replies given were for the person who ASKED the question.

 

[star]

Yup, yup! That is why I appreciate Tamsins post, sister gave something small and it opened up some questions for me. Thats what I look for when being shown new things, minus all the other rhetoric.

You have good and humble spirit. Keeping open to God is the key to growth.

 

[mkh_77]

Who said this? Please do no bring the wrong spirit in. Nobody was directly anything to you. The question again was for the person who asked it. We here know how to agree to disagree in Love and nobody here has these feeling coming in this discussion. Some of us have been here for awhile and never seperate ourselves from anyone. Recieve the information in spirit in which it is intended. The replies given were for the person who ASKED the question.

I never wrote that anyone said anything. I wrote about the feeling I get from the posts in this forum. The nasty feelings masked in love.

I am not bringing in "the wrong spirit." I am trying to have an educated debate about a tenant of Christianity. The fact that I believe something different from you, or anyone else is just that, a difference. Wrong spirit? I don't think so. Difference of opinion? Yes.

I have been a member on this board for a while, too, and have read several posts about Christians separating themselves from others (reference the equally yoked thread).

If the replies were given for the person who asked the question, why did you quote me?

Don't slap me and tell me you are hugging me. I know nastiness when I see it, and I see it in this forum a lot.

 

[alexstin]

TJD3: For so many years we as Christians have relied on what "someone else" has told us about Jesus and the Bible and we have not taken the time to do the study ourselves. The Good news is that God gave us His word to "make Him known" to us. So it's purpose is to reveal God to us. The Bible has to be read both for it's spiritual truth, historical accuracy and cultural context. We read our translations as modern day Americans and not as those who lived at that time. Many of the things that seem questionable to us where plain in the context of the time and the culture of that day. So when we come to the Bible we already have some homework to do. Most of us for example aren't raised in Jewish households with Jewish customs so the context of many things He says is lost on us.

QUOTE]

I agree. I recently purchased a book about biblical customs. It's amazing how much we can misinterpret if we don't know the historical references. For instance, the scripture about it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to Heaven. It was years before I found out that the needle wasn't a needle as we think of it today.

Also, last year I purchased a book on the inductive study method of the bible. It didn't take me long to realized how much I had missed by just reading my bible subjectively. Now I know how to really dig into the truths of God's word.

We have so many resources at our fingertips. Hopefully we're all taking advantage of them because ultimately we the only ones responsible for our spiritual knowledge

 

[Dogmd]

A christian believes that Jesus is God. God is a trinity of three.. God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy spirit.

 

[star]

I never wrote that anyone said anything. I wrote about the feeling I get from the posts in this forum. The nasty feelings masked in love.

I am not bringing in "the wrong spirit." I am trying to have an educated debate about a tenant of Christianity. The fact that I believe something different from you, or anyone else is just that, a difference. Wrong spirit? I don't think so. Difference of opinion? Yes.

I have been a member on this board for a while, too, and have read several posts about Christians separating themselves from others (reference the equally yoked thread).

If the replies were given for the person who asked the question, why did you quote me?

Don't slap me and tell me you are hugging me. I know nastiness when I see it, and I see it in this forum a lot.

Calm down you are over reacting. I sent you a quote because you specifically made a comment about something I said. Go back and read what you said. Start from the beginning.

 

[newme2003]

Ebonyeyes,

I would suggest that you check out www.carm.org (The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) They have a section on JW.

I am Christian and I know that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and The Father are God and are one. I happen to work with a JW who I respect very much. Of course our beliefs are completely different. I found at the beginning when we started to get close (can't say friendship because they can't be friends with non JWs) a lot of what she said to me seemed like sound doctrine causing me to become doubtful about my own beliefs. This confusion for me was a blessing from God because it helped me to realize that many of my own beliefs were based on things I had been taught not on what I had studied for myself. As a result I dug into my own bible and did my own studying. As a result my initial beliefs about the Trinity were confirmed. As someone stated before although there is no mention of the word trinity there are many references to the deity of all three (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). i.e. in the Hebrew manuscripts in Genesis Elohim is used for "God". This word is plural not singular. "Immanuel" means God with us - not God's representative with us.

But going back to this man you met... one thing seems suspicious to me. One thing I remember hearing from my coworker is that men are supposed to "study" with men and "women" with women.

Anyway, you can try to plant a seed but please know that it would pretty much be futile to try to have a discussion with a JW. It would pretty much be onesided. They are not really interested in what "wordly" (anyone who is not a JW including christians) have to say and even if they hear you they already have a trained response for what you have to say. (if she says "a" I respond with "b"). They go to "studies" at least three times a week. They are taught what to say and what to think without the freedom to question what they are being taught. They are conditioned to block out anything that goes against what they believe. One more thing. Everytime they witness to someone or "study" with someone they are building up heavenly points. Yes they actually have to report this stuff to the watchtower/kingdom hall. Yep, I would take Jesus' yoke over this stuff any day. Don't humor this guy. Again, check out that site and there are so many other sites if you're interested. Just do some research.

 

[star]

Here is some info I found from Bible school.

http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?p=1316842#post1316842

 

[mkh_77]

Calm down you are over reacting. I sent you a quote because you specifically made a comment about something I said. Go back and read what you said. Start from the beginning.

I have read your comments and mine, hence my response.

No one is upset, and I am not overreacting. I am simply making my point just as you made yours.

 

[star]

I have read your comments and mine, hence my response.

No one is upset, and I am not overreacting. I am simply making my point just as you made yours.

OK. I want talk to you more about this possibly off line think about it. God bless.

 

[mkh_77]

OK. I want talk to you more about this possibly off line think about it. God bless.

Sure. PM me when you get the chance.

 

[secretdiamond]

I agree. I recently purchased a book about biblical customs. It's amazing how much we can misinterpret if we don't know the historical references. For instance, the scripture about it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to Heaven. It was years before I found out that the needle wasn't a needle as we think of it today.

Also, last year I purchased a book on the inductive study method of the bible. It didn't take me long to realized how much I had missed by just reading my bible subjectively. Now I know how to really dig into the truths of God's word.

We have so many resources at our fingertips. Hopefully we're all taking advantage of them because ultimately we the only ones responsible for our spiritual knowledge

Don't wanna hijack the thread, so can you PM me elaborating on this please? This seems very interesting. And what's the name of the book you are speaking of? TIA.

 

[Poohbear]

What Trinity is NOT:
3-in-1 does NOT mean that God (Father), Jesus (Son), & Holy Spirit are the same
They are NOT the same
They are NOT 3 separate gods either

What Trinity IS:
*The unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma
*The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit one in essence (in nature)
*Jesus and the Holy Spirit work together in Christians in order for us to have a relationship and constant communication with God

This image may help you out to a great extent:

John 1:1-18 is a great scripture in the Bible to support the concept of Trinity.

Check out this nice website to help you out more about Trinity, especially Part 05: http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity.htm

 

[mkh_77]

What Trinity is NOT:
3-in-1 does NOT mean that God (Father), Jesus (Son), & Holy Spirit are the same
They are NOT the same
They are NOT 3 separate gods either

What Trinity IS:
*The unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma
*The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit one in essence (in nature)
*Jesus and the Holy Spirit work together in Christians in order for us to have a relationship and constant communication with God

I have a question. So, are you implying (please don't associate anything negative with this word) with this post that Jesus does not equal God? That Jesus and God are not interchangeable? That Jesus and God are not the same?

TIA.

 

[Poohbear]

I have a question. So, are you implying (please don't associate anything negative with this word) with this post that Jesus does not equal God? That Jesus and God are not interchangeable? That Jesus and God are not the same?

TIA.

Correct but, I'm not implying anything (I know you weren't being negative or anything ) ... I'm saying it straight out that the Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit are three persons in one Godhead. The Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit are one in essence (in nature)... NOT the same so to speak. That's trinity and that's what I believe in.

It is confusing. I think that's why we have some people who believe in trinity and those who do not believe in it because we do not completely understand the concept. Many people do not believe in the concept of Trinity because they think it means God, Jesus, & the H.S. are all the same when that is certainly not true. They may also argue that the word 'trinity' is not in the Bible. That does not matter... it's the concept behind Trinity.

HTH!

 

[mkh_77]

Correct but, I'm not implying anything (I know you weren't being negative or anything ) ... I'm saying it straight out that the Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit are three persons in one Godhead. The Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit are one in essence (in nature)... NOT the same so to speak. That's trinity and that's what I believe in.

It is confusing. I think that's why we have some people who believe in trinity and those who do not believe in it because we do not completely understand the concept. Many people do not believe in the concept of Trinity because they think it means God, Jesus, & the H.S. are all the same when that is certainly not true. They may also argue that the word 'trinity' is not in the Bible. That does not matter... it's the concept behind Trinity.

HTH!

Thank you for posting this. This is what I believe, and I think you put it into words better than I could have.

 

[TJD3]

Correct but, I'm not implying anything (I know you weren't being negative or anything ) ... I'm saying it straight out that the Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit are three persons in one Godhead. The Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit are one in essence (in nature)... NOT the same so to speak. That's trinity and that's what I believe in.

It is confusing. I think that's why we have some people who believe in trinity and those who do not believe in it because we do not completely understand the concept. Many people do not believe in the concept of Trinity because they think it means God, Jesus, & the H.S. are all the same when that is certainly not true. They may also argue that the word 'trinity' is not in the Bible. That does not matter... it's the concept behind Trinity.


HTH!

Hmmm, maybe this is what Im thinking but didn know how to describe. That they are in unity.... I dont even know how to describe it outside of what you said. I think of it sometimes like a pizza (immature, I know). Youve got crust, cheese, and pepporoni. One pizza, but three seperate entities working together to achieve the same thing. Does that make sense ?

 

[TJD3]

Thank you for posting this. This is what I believe, and I think you put it into words better than I could have.

Right !! Go Poohbear ! Little sassy thing . I think in essence we are all saying the same thing, its the wording thats got us confused.

 

[Poohbear]

Hmmm, maybe this is what Im thinking but didn know how to describe. That they are in unity.... I dont even know how to describe it outside of what you said. I think of it sometimes like a pizza (immature, I know). Youve got crust, cheese, and pepporoni. One pizza, but three seperate entities working together to achieve the same thing. Does that make sense ?

LOL!

Or you can think of it this way...

When a man and a woman get married, they are united with God. God, the husband, and the wife are three in one.

 

[mkh_77]

Husbands and wives are to become one when they are married, but they aren't interchangeable.

In my opinion, Jesus was a manifestation of God, but he was not God, just as children are manifestations of their parents, but they are not interchangeable with their parents. They (children) are separate entities, just as Jesus was a separate entity from God."


I think I was getting there when I wrote this above, but I like Poohbear's explanation a lot. Thanks, again.

 

[Poohbear]

I also wanted to explain some phrases used in John Chapter 1...

"the Word" - what does it mean?
John's description shows clearly that he is speaking of Jesus--a human being he knew and loved, but at the same time... the Creator of the universe, the ultimate revelation of God, the living picture of God's holiness, the one by whom "all things consist"

"Jesus was God"
When Christ was born, God became a man. He was not part man and part God; he was completely human and completely divine. Before Christ came, people could know God partially. After Christ came, people could know God fully because he became visible and tangible in Christ. Christ is the perfect expression of God in human form. That's all. The most common erros that people make about Jesus are to minimize his humanity or to minimize his divinity.

"And the Word was made flesh" - what does it mean?
This means Jesus becoming human. Christ became the perfect teacher, the perfect example, and the perfect sacrifice for all of His Elect.

 

[Poohbear]

your welcome mkh_77!

 

[cocoberry10]

Wow, this is an excellent thread! You ladies have really got me thinking. I guess I always saw Jesus as the Son of God. Yes, we are all sons of God, but he was the greatest Son.

As odd a comparison as this may seem, I think of him the way Satan used to be in God's eyes before his fall. Satan was the greatest cherub of all, the highest of high, and then he could no longer take being below God, and wanted to become God. My pastor did an excellent sermon on this, and said that he believed Satan became jealous of God to the point of trying to become him, b/c Satan was ashamed of how beautiful God really was (even though in the bible, Satan--King of Tyre) was described as incredibly beautiful--more beautiful than anyone else (besides God)).

Although I believe in the trinity, I think it is way overcomplicated by churches and the "religious leaders." I think of the trinity the way I think of H20 (water). It has 3 different forms, which make it three different things. For instance, when H2O is liquid, it's water. When H2O is solid, it's ice. When
H2O boils, it becomes gas and eventually evaporates in the air. That's exactly how I think of the trinity. Three different forms, three different beings, with different purposes. I believe if someone is really unsure, they should ask God, and don't worry about what man tells you.

 

[Crackers Phinn]

Correct but, I'm not implying anything (I know you weren't being negative or anything ) ... I'm saying it straight out that the Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit are three persons in one Godhead. The Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit are one in essence (in nature)... NOT the same so to speak. That's trinity and that's what I believe in.

I agree with that Poohbear said.

I don't understand why this has to be such a divisive belief.

 

[Poohbear]

Wow, this is an excellent thread! You ladies have really got me thinking. I guess I always saw Jesus as the Son of God. Yes, we are all sons of God, but he was the greatest Son.

As odd a comparison as this may seem, I think of him the way Satan used to be in God's eyes before his fall. Satan was the greatest cherub of all, the highest of high, and then he could no longer take being below God, and wanted to become God. My pastor did an excellent sermon on this, and said that he believed Satan became jealous of God to the point of trying to become him, b/c Satan was ashamed of how beautiful God really was (even though in the bible, Satan--King of Tyre) was described as incredibly beautiful--more beautiful than anyone else (besides God)).

Although I believe in the trinity, I think it is way overcomplicated by churches and the "religious leaders." I think of the trinity the way I think of H20 (water). It has 3 different forms, which make it three different things. For instance, when H2O is liquid, it's water. When H2O is solid, it's ice. When
H2O boils, it becomes gas and eventually evaporates in the air. That's exactly how I think of the trinity. Three different forms, three different beings, with different purposes. I believe if someone is really unsure, they should ask God, and don't worry about what man tells you.

I LOVE YOUR H2O ANALOGY!!!

 

[Zeal]

Zeal,

I do believe Jesus is God. I was stating the irony of NOT believing that and saying you're a Christian. Christianity isn't just about following the teachings of Jesus. If so than it's no different from religion.

Religion is simply man's attempts to reach God. Not possible!

Jesus sacrificed Himself so that we could again have fellowship with the Father through the Holy Spirit. Jesus said He needed to leave so that the Comforter could come. Why was it so important for Holy Spirit to come? We need His power or otherwise our walk would always be a struggle. Have you ever noticed how different the Apostles were before Jesus was crucified as opposed to after when He breathed on them and said Receive Holy Spirit? The boldness and power the Apostles had after Jesus ascended was nothing like the men who followed Jesus for 3 years.

When we come to Christ we are sealed with His Spirit but then we can also receive the infilling of His Spirit to give power. Too many Christians relegate Holy Spirit to the back of their lives when He should be at the forefront. Without Holy Spirit everything we do is out of "head" knowledge and nothing more. We'll recite scriptures and do good things but never truly affect the kingdom darkness.


Think about it. Even the demons believe and tremble. What makes us different?

I know that you believe. I am on your side. My comment was not directed to you. I was agreeing with you. I just thought it was funny the way that you worded it.