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Caster Semenya Hopes To 'run Free' Again After Swiss Supreme Court Offers A Reprieve (Update)

Leeda.the.Paladin

Well-Known Member
How is she a woman (even intersexed)? If she has XY AND testes AND working testosterone where does the woman part comes. Did this person have an accident at birth and lost the male external parts? Someone help me out. Usually for intersex one of the above XY, testes, or testosterone has to not be there or not work properly. The person even lives as a man (dresses, "acts", romantic interest, forehead :look:) fits a Cis man. Must be a very unusual case even for an intersexed person. Makes no sense to me.
I think she has external female genitalia. She does not have ovaries or a uterus. And I guess she’s a woman because that’s what she identifies as.
 

dancinstallion

Well-Known Member
How is she a woman (even intersexed)? If she has XY AND testes AND working testosterone where does the woman part comes. Did this person have an accident at birth and lost the male external parts? Someone help me out. Usually for intersex one of the above XY, testes, or testosterone has to not be there or not work properly. The person even lives as a man (dresses, "acts", romantic interest, forehead :look:) fits a Cis man. Must be a very unusual case even for an intersexed person. Makes no sense to me.
I am so confused why people are acting like this okay. Because she has a vagina they are saying she is a woman. So I conceded and called her intersexed because I refuse to call her a woman because she is not. I forgot to add she is xy. o_O
She can claim what she wants to but Biologically she is not a woman period.
 

spacetygrss

Well-Known Member
I don't particularly care that she dresses or "acts like a man." Plenty of masculine of center women do that. And I'd hope that we don't have to explain women dating/marrying other women...in Pride month of all months.

I'm really only concerned with the fact that her testosterone is SO much higher than all of the non-intersex women in the field. That clearly gives her an unfair advantage. It sucks for her that there isn't a clear category to fit into, but I'm not sure what to do about that. What the officials SHOULDN'T do is humiliate her while figuring it out.

I’ve actually cared for quite a few intersex individuals over the years. There are several different conditions that fall into a “grab bag.” It sounds like Caster Semanya May have Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (assuming that the info is true). It explains the XY, testis, vagina and the testosterone that is higher than women and lower than men. 5 -alpha reductase deficiency is a possibility too. Sexual development is not as straightforward as many people think.

A good site to browse if you have time.
http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions
http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions/ais
 

Crackers Phinn

Either A Blessing Or A Lesson.
From a B.S. advocates article:
“Certain bodies are never allowed to be female, are never allowed to be women, are never allowed to just be,” Pidgeon Pagonis, an intersex activist and co-founder of the Intersex Justice Project, told Vox. “What I think this comes down to is, Caster’s faster than white girls and she made them cry.”

Look at all them white girls losing money and endorsements behind Caster. The narrative spin on this is disgusting. If you don't understand irony, those women are black.



 

kblc06

Well-Known Member
While I agree that until her testosterone levels are lowered within a normal female range, she should not be allowed to compete with women, unless women competing in her events were allowed to dope. However, the bolded is NOT accurate. In Caster's case, while she may have XY chromosomes, her body is insensitive to testosterone's effects. Androgen insensitivity syndrome or AIS can be complete or incomplete due to a malfunction of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome.

Every fetus essentially starts out as "beta female" with internal gonads and it's the activation or inactivation of anti-mullerian hormones that determines how these gonads develop (anti-mullerian hormone triggered by SRY gene to up-regulate androgen production causes the development of testes and destruction of the residual tissue that would form the Fallopian tubes/ovaries). Due to some mutation, Caster's body did not respond completely, so while she has internal "testes" that may produce excessive androgens, the receptors on her body's cells don't respond as a male would in the presence of testosterone, rendering her effectively female. Even if Caster were to take in additional testosterone via injections, her results as far as muscular development would never reach that of a man because her cellular receptors don't respond to androgens. In hormonal conditions such as PCOS in women, overproduction of estrogen can inter-convert this excess estrogen to testosterone quite easily which is what causes excess hair, amenorrhea, and male type central obesity in women with the condition.

A transgender female (MTF), would have both normal responses in androgen production levels and and androgen receptor activity, thus making them effectively male. Sex hormones are weird and not exactly as cut and dry as they may seem. Testosterone and estrogen readily convert back and forth and levels that are too low or too high even in normal cisgender male and females can cause systematic issues.

The issue is that she is not genetically a woman. High testosterone in a woman is not equal to the testosterone levels achievable in a genetic male. This is the same argument that many have with transgendered women competing with genetic women. It isn’t discriminatory to acknowledge there are differences between men and women.

Biologically it isn’t the same. This isn’t a woman with abnormally high testosterone results this is someone who is inter-sexed displaying hormonal levels more in line with their genetic makeup.

No one is saying she can’t compete. She just needs to compete on a fair playing field.
 
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kblc06

Well-Known Member
I didn't see your reply-thank you for posting this! I really do not like how intersexed people and their narrative has been co-opted by the transgender movement. It is a separate, unique, medical condition and intersex people can in fact be BORN with ambiguous genitalia/chromosomes.

I don't particularly care that she dresses or "acts like a man." Plenty of masculine of center women do that. And I'd hope that we don't have to explain women dating/marrying other women...in Pride month of all months.

I'm really only concerned with the fact that her testosterone is SO much higher than all of the non-intersex women in the field. That clearly gives her an unfair advantage. It sucks for her that there isn't a clear category to fit into, but I'm not sure what to do about that. What the officials SHOULDN'T do is humiliate her while figuring it out.

I’ve actually cared for quite a few intersex individuals over the years. There are several different conditions that fall into a “grab bag.” It sounds like Caster Semanya May have Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (assuming that the info is true). It explains the XY, testis, vagina and the testosterone that is higher than women and lower than men. 5 -alpha reductase deficiency is a possibility too. Sexual development is not as straightforward as many people think.

A good site to browse if you have time.
http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions
http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions/ais
 
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Leeda.the.Paladin

Well-Known Member
I completely understand that. I just dont think she should be allowed to race with other women. Medical condition or no. And I have to wonder about the character of someone who finds out that they have such an advantage but still continue to race against women who have average levels.

Even if she adhered to the medications to lower her testosterone, her body composition would still render her performance superior.
 

dicapr

Well-Known Member
While I agree that until her testosterone levels are lowered within a normal female range, she should not be allowed to compete with women, unless women competing in her events were allowed to dope. However, the bolded is NOT accurate. In Caster's case, while she may have XY chromosomes, her body is insensitive to testosterone's effects. Androgen insensitivity syndrome or AIS can be complete or incomplete due to a malfunction of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome.

Every fetus essentially starts out as "beta female" with internal gonads and it's the activation or inactivation of anti-mullerian hormones that determines how these gonads develop (anti-mullerian hormone triggered by SRY gene to up-regulate androgen production causes the development of testes and destruction of the residual tissue that would form the Fallopian tubes/ovaries). Due to some mutation, Caster's body did not respond completely, so while she has internal "testes" that may produce excessive androgens, the receptors on her body's cells don't respond as a male would in the presence of testosterone, rendering her effectively female. Even if Caster were to take in additional testosterone via injections, her results as far as muscular development would never reach that of a man because her cellular receptors don't respond to androgens. In hormonal conditions such as PCOS in women, overproduction of estrogen can inter-convert this excess estrogen to testosterone quite easily which is what causes excess hair, amenorrhea, and male type central obesity in women with the condition.

A transgender female (MTF), would have both normal responses in androgen production levels and and androgen receptor activity, thus making them effectively male. Sex hormones are weird and not exactly as cut and dry as they may seem. Testosterone and estrogen readily convert back and forth and levels that are too low or too high even in normal cisgender male and females can cause systematic issues.
No one is saying she has a normal response like a man. What is being said is that even her lower response is higher than a female. Taking steroids would give a woman an advantage but it doesn’t mean they could compete with men. The same with this situation. If it wasn’t to her advantage she would take the pills and compete. She at least suspects that having a normal hormonal level for a woman will impact her performance.

ETA: Her testosterone level has to be almost 3Xs that of a normal woman for them to see it as an unfair advantage.
 

ThirdEyeBeauty

Well-Known Member
I don't particularly care that she dresses or "acts like a man." Plenty of masculine of center women do that. And I'd hope that we don't have to explain women dating/marrying other women...in Pride month of all months.
I, too, don't care. I said all of that to make my point clearer. It's the cumulative effect that I wanted to point out. If no one said a word, most people would assumed she was a man without a doubt.
 

spacetygrss

Well-Known Member
I, too, don't care. I said all of that to make my point clearer. It's the cumulative effect that I wanted to point out. If no one said a word, most people would assumed she was a man without a doubt.
Yeah.... Probably depends on who you see regularly. She literally looks like a MOC woman or androgynous person to me. Shrug.

Regardless, she's intersex. She's in a really unfortunate spot because she really DOES have an unfair advantage against non-intersex women and is disadvantaged against men.
I hope that they can come up with something that is fair and kind.
 

ThirdEyeBeauty

Well-Known Member
I’ve actually cared for quite a few intersex individuals over the years. There are several different conditions that fall into a “grab bag.” It sounds like Caster Semanya May have Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (assuming that the info is true). It explains the XY, testis, vagina and the testosterone that is higher than women and lower than men. 5 -alpha reductase deficiency is a possibility too. Sexual development is not as straightforward as many people think.
Ah, I see your familiarity with this type of intersex. Is it possible that she fits the 5-alpha reductase deficiency type more than AIS? Help me with this: for either type the high testosterone will still make it a possibility that she can have either disorder correct? That's where I was somewhat confused if the information given about her is correct.
 

spacetygrss

Well-Known Member
Ah, I see your familiarity with this type of intersex. Is it possible that she fits the 5-alpha reductase deficiency type more than AIS? Help me with this: for either type the high testosterone will still make it a possibility that she can have either disorder correct? That's where I was somewhat confused if the information given about her is correct.
Yes, she could have either, but without having her medical info it's not really possible to know which.
The basic way that I quickly separate them in my head:
People with 5-ARDS who appear female at birth often start to undergo "virilization" at puberty due to their increased testosterone (voice deepens, clitoris enlarges, testicles descend, grow facial hair, etc) because their issue is the lack of the enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT.
On the other hand, people with AIS are insensitive to testosterone. So even with the increased testosterone, they don't undergo that same virilization at puberty.
Both groups of people can appear female at birth (assuming that they weren't born with ambiguous genitalia) and both will have amenarche (no period). The Physician then has to draw labs and perform genetic tests to distinguish the two.

HTH.

ETA: The biggest point is that there has to be a thorough physical exam and lab/genetic tests. Without that, it's all just speculation.
 
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guudhair

Well-Known Member
No one should have (or be allowed) to have suppressive treatments to compete in women sports. The women participating in those sports should be boycotting...every woman should be boycotting this.

Separate categories for sports, among other things, need to be created for intersex and trans people. Until that happens, tests for testosterone levels should be required in women sports. I feel very weird typing this...
 

ThirdEyeBeauty

Well-Known Member
No one should have (or be allowed) to have suppressive treatments to compete in women sports. The women participating in those sports should be boycotting...every woman should be boycotting this.

Separate categories for sports, among other things, need to be created for intersex and trans people. Until that happens, tests for testosterone levels should be required in women sports. I feel very weird typing this...
There should be an option for a race for people to compete will anyone/everyone.
 

VictoriousBrownFlower

Well-Known Member
Goodness this predicament is sad all around. Honestly i would say her best bet is to take hormones to regulate her testosterone to that of a females that way it's an even playing field. She can't really compete with other women if her testosterone is so high and can't compete with men because it's not high enough. So just lower the levels and train extra hard like the rest of them.
 

VictoriousBrownFlower

Well-Known Member
I don’t understand how it would be an even playing field.
thats as close as it would get in this situation. Make her testosterone the same as other women. If she wants to play with women then she should have the same hormone levels because honestly that's the only thing that gives her a leg up (so I'm assuming). She has the body type and muscle density she has because of her high levels of testosterone (right?). Testosterone is what gives her added strength and energy not her chromosomes so lower them. Its either that or do a intersexed division. She can't perform with other female athletes the way she is right now. What else can she do?
 

VictoriousBrownFlower

Well-Known Member
Compete with others like her. Intersex and trans people should not get to decide if they want to compete in women sports. That shouldn’t even be an option.
i agree but i think there'd be alot of hell to take on doing something like that.

Heres a great vid on this discussion by two trangender women. (i admit I'm still watching it though)
 

dancinstallion

Well-Known Member
i agree but i think there'd be alot of hell to take on doing something like that.

Heres a great vid on this discussion by two trangender women. (i admit I'm still watching it though)

So why can't it be simple. Xx compete against Xx and xy compete against xy like one of them said.

The other guy is not making sense.
 
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ThirdEyeBeauty

Well-Known Member
Yes, she could have either, but without having her medical info it's not really possible to know which.
The basic way that I quickly separate them in my head:
People with 5-ARDS who appear female at birth often start to undergo "virilization" at puberty due to their increased testosterone (voice deepens, clitoris enlarges, testicles descend, grow facial hair, etc) because their issue is the lack of the enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT.
On the other hand, people with AIS are insensitive to testosterone. So even with the increased testosterone, they don't undergo that same virilization at puberty.
Both groups of people can appear female at birth (assuming that they weren't born with ambiguous genitalia) and both will have amenarche (no period). The Physician then has to draw labs and perform genetic tests to distinguish the two.

HTH.

ETA: The biggest point is that there has to be a thorough physical exam and lab/genetic tests. Without that, it's all just speculation.
Also with the complete form of AIS, without intervention, the person at puberty develops a typical female (external) phenotype correct? That's how I think about AIS and feel she is probably closer to 5-ARDS or maybe an incomplete AIS. I cannot think of any other intersex disorder she would have based on what was said but I know there are rare disorders and even rarer disorders.
 

spacetygrss

Well-Known Member
Also with the complete form of AIS, without intervention, the person at puberty develops a typical female (external) phenotype correct? That's how I think about AIS and feel she is probably closer to 5-ARDS or maybe an incomplete AIS. I cannot think of any other intersex disorder she would have based on what was said but I know there are rare disorders and even rarer disorders.
Yes. They can develop breasts. However, with as athletic as she is, she may not have a lot of breast tissue unless she were increase her body fat. It really is impossible to do anything other than speculate without labs and a true history & physical exam.
 

itsallaboutattitude

Cancer Support in Health
Are those finals or elinination rounds before a final race?
From a B.S. advocates article:
“Certain bodies are never allowed to be female, are never allowed to be women, are never allowed to just be,” Pidgeon Pagonis, an intersex activist and co-founder of the Intersex Justice Project, told Vox. “What I think this comes down to is, Caster’s faster than white girls and she made them cry.”

Look at all them white girls losing money and endorsements behind Caster. The narrative spin on this is disgusting. If you don't understand irony, those women are black.



 

laurend

Well-Known Member
I just feel sorry for her and the women who are denied medals because of her. She should not run with women, whom she will beat, and she should not run with men, who will beat her. Semenya should be in a race for intersex people but they are not enough around to create a race category at these events.
 
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