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Caster Semenya Hopes To 'run Free' Again After Swiss Supreme Court Offers A Reprieve (Update)

huxtable

Well-Known Member
For most of history women had nothing. Now we are getting a little something and men want to call themselves women and take the little that we have. Where were they when we did not have the right to vote, when could not even compete in events like these?

This taking of our spaces BY MEN is serious business and should not be ignored. Women who align with them should really give it some deep thought because these men are coming from a place of real envy and contempt for women and at the end of the day you are a women and they will eventually come for you should you dare step out of line.

They probably all up in this forum as well.
 

naturalgyrl5199

Well-Known Member
Am I correct in assuming Caster is losing her battle because it’s a Swiss court? If this were in the US, it seems like she’d be able to compete and steal all she wants from women... Why is that trans man CeCe, posted above, allowed to compete in women’s sports? Is the US so far gone when it comes to this trans thing that men can now just say “feel like a woman inside”, and be allowed to dominate all the women’s sporting events??
People try to assure us that under no circumstances will women who identify as women will be erased in society. But we were worried about the above 10 years ago and here we are. I'm in the birth work world and this is argued a lot. We know that people who identify as male but were born female can have babies. Arguments about "birthing person" vs the "nursing mom." "Arguments about chest feeding vs breastfeeding----even though men and women have breast tissue." The MTF transgender person who wanted access to breast cancer services/grants targeted to women. The real worry that eliminating womanhood and women may see an erasure of female targeted medical initiatives like maternal mortality in black women, money and grants for women-related health issues ONLY found in women. So called feminists on both sides, black women and other non-wyte woc on both sides arguing, name calling. I'm tired.
 

Maracujá

November 2020 --> 14 years natural!!!
People try to assure us that under no circumstances will women who identify as women will be erased in society. But we were worried about the above 10 years ago and here we are. I'm in the birth work world and this is argued a lot. We know that people who identify as male but were born female can have babies. Arguments about "birthing person" vs the "nursing mom." "Arguments about chest feeding vs breastfeeding----even though men and women have breast tissue." The MTF transgender person who wanted access to breast cancer services/grants targeted to women. The real worry that eliminating womanhood and women may see an erasure of female targeted medical initiatives like maternal mortality in black women, money and grants for women-related health issues ONLY found in women. So called feminists on both sides, black women and other non-wyte woc on both sides arguing, name calling. I'm tired.
Yup, noticed the same semantics while working at a health insurance company. So disheartening. Had to walk on eggshells when addressing customers on the phone too :nono:.
 

Maguerite

Well-Known Member
Good! She is a man and that’s final. Go compete with the men. I’ll bet the male athletes will oppose vigorously, are there any FTM fighting to compete with men? It’s usually women, sadly BW for the most part, who have no boundaries and allow anyone to invade our spaces.
 

luckiestdestiny

Well-Known Member
While I agree that until her testosterone levels are lowered within a normal female range, she should not be allowed to compete with women, unless women competing in her events were allowed to dope. However, the bolded is NOT accurate. In Caster's case, while she may have XY chromosomes, her body is insensitive to testosterone's effects. Androgen insensitivity syndrome or AIS can be complete or incomplete due to a malfunction of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome.

Every fetus essentially starts out as "beta female" with internal gonads and it's the activation or inactivation of anti-mullerian hormones that determines how these gonads develop (anti-mullerian hormone triggered by SRY gene to up-regulate androgen production causes the development of testes and destruction of the residual tissue that would form the Fallopian tubes/ovaries). Due to some mutation, Caster's body did not respond completely, so while she has internal "testes" that may produce excessive androgens, the receptors on her body's cells don't respond as a male would in the presence of testosterone, rendering her effectively female. Even if Caster were to take in additional testosterone via injections, her results as far as muscular development would never reach that of a man because her cellular receptors don't respond to androgens. In hormonal conditions such as PCOS in women, overproduction of estrogen can inter-convert this excess estrogen to testosterone quite easily which is what causes excess hair, amenorrhea, and male type central obesity in women with the condition.

A transgender female (MTF), would have both normal responses in androgen production levels and and androgen receptor activity, thus making them effectively male. Sex hormones are weird and not exactly as cut and dry as they may seem. Testosterone and estrogen readily convert back and forth and levels that are too low or too high even in normal cisgender male and females can cause systematic issues.
Thanks for explaining this. Okay so she's female...but with too high testosterone. But at least I now understand why she can be considered a woman instead of a male.

I agree with you though that she should not be allowed with women in competition unless those women are allowed to dope to get the same genetic advantage. She's not just a little out of range, she's so far out of range of testosterone that it is just not fair to anyone competing.
 

luckiestdestiny

Well-Known Member
I just feel sorry for her and the women who are denied medals because of her. She should not run with women, whom she will beat, and she should not run with men, who will beat her. Semenya should be in a race for intersex people but they are not enough around to create a race category at these events.
This sucks right here.
 

luckiestdestiny

Well-Known Member
This is the point. Biologically he is a male not a female with high testosterone. I am glad they are fighting his appeal.

https://dailycaller.com/2019/06/19/caster-semenya-biologically-male-iaaf/


Women’s Olympic Champion Caster Semenya Is ‘Biologically Male,’ IAAF Says


June 19th, 2019

Caster Semenya of South Africa looks on prior to competing in the Women's 800 metres during the IAAF Diamond League event at the Khalifa International Stadium on May 03, 2019 in Doha, Qatar. (Francois Nel/Getty Images)
Women’s Olympic champion Caster Semenya is a biological male, the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF), the world’s largest sports governing body, argued in court.

Semenya, the South African runner who dominated the female competition in the women’s 800M at the 2016 London Olympics, is fighting an IAAF requirement that biologically male runners suppress their testosterone below a certain level in order to compete in female events.





Media reporting on the subject has often left outthe fact that the IAAF’s rule only applies to runners with male chromosomes rather than female runners with high testosterone levels.

The IAAF called the requirement “an extremely progressive compromise” between protecting the integrity of women’s sports and accommodating “certain biologically male athletes with female gender identities” like Semenya who want to compete in women’s sports, the court documents show.

The IAAF added that “there are some contexts where biology has to trump identity.” (RELATED: Every Democratic 2020 Frontrunner Supports Bill Forcing Male Athletes Into Girls’ Sports)



Semenya at France’s LNA Pro Athle Tour meeting on June 11, 2019 (GEOFFROY VAN DER HASSELT/AFP/Getty Images)

Semenya reportedly has “5-alpha reductase deficiency” (5-ARD), a medical condition affecting male sexual development.


Semenya’s case, the IAAF reiterated, “is not about biological females and how their bodies respond to testosterone; it is about biological males with 5-ARD (and other [male sexual development disorders]), how their bodies respond to testosterone, and the performance advantages of that response when they compete against biological females.”

Athletes with 5-ARD are “biologically indistinguishable… in all relevant aspects” from typical male athletes, with the only major difference being the “size and shape of their external genitals,” the IAAF argued.


Semenya celebrates winning the Women’s 800 meters during the IAAF Diamond League event at the Khalifa International Stadium on May 03, 2019 in Doha, Qatar. (Francois Nel/Getty Images)

“People with this condition are genetically male, with one X and one Y chromosome in each cell, and they have male gonads (testes),” the U.S. National Library of Medicine’s explainer on 5-ARD states. “Their bodies, however, do not produce enough of a hormone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT has a critical role in male sexual development, and a shortage of this hormone disrupts the formation of the external sex organs before birth.”

The Switzerland-based Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) ruled in favor of the IAAF last month but before Tuesday, “CAS had previously released only short excerpts of the final verdict when it was announced last month,” the Associated Press reported.


Semenya appealed the verdict to the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland, which announced June 3 that it was suspending the IAAF’s rule while it considers Semenya’s appeal
Semenya reportedly has “5-alpha reductase deficiency” (5-ARD), a medical condition affecting male sexual development.


Semenya’s case, the IAAF reiterated, “is not about biological females and how their bodies respond to testosterone; it is about biological males with 5-ARD (and other [male sexual development disorders]), how their bodies respond to testosterone, and the performance advantages of that response when they compete against biological females.”



Geez if this definition is true versus the other provided by our lhcf member, then she is a male and that's that. No more of this confusion. Caster needs to run with males or in a different category. I guess I need to keep reading before I finish responding because I'm now seeing how this thread is old and it seems like a book where there are surprise endings :lol: .
 

LivingInPeace

Well-Known Member
Semenya reportedly has “5-alpha reductase deficiency” (5-ARD), a medical condition affecting male sexual development.


Semenya’s case, the IAAF reiterated, “is not about biological females and how their bodies respond to testosterone; it is about biological males with 5-ARD (and other [male sexual development disorders]), how their bodies respond to testosterone, and the performance advantages of that response when they compete against biological females.”



Geez if this definition is true versus the other provided by our lhcf member, then she is a male and that's that. No more of this confusion. Caster needs to run with males or in a different category. I guess I need to keep reading before I finish responding because I'm now seeing how this thread is old and it seems like a book where there are surprise endings :lol: .
Look, I could have told everyone that's a man. Ain't no need for lab work.
 

luckiestdestiny

Well-Known Member
Look, I could have told everyone that's a man. Ain't no need for lab work.
:lachen:I wanted to understand the science behind things in case I was wrong. Nobody's perfect. I was on the 1601138980126.png train of thought from the beginning but conceded that I might not know everything because science is not my field and though I can appreciate and process information adequately, maybe something was missing that I didn't know that others in the field did. Like: perhaps somehow her genetic makeup rendered the Y ineffective in some way. The explanation by the previous poster seemed valid so I yielded instead of going with my better instincts :lachen: :rofl:And because it was late, I wasn't in research mode and saw no one contradicting so I was like, okay then...I guess this is what happens in development to all of us and then the way we express changes things but somehow there was a mix up in her body. However, science has defined this condition as decidely male so none of that matters.
 
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luckiestdestiny

Well-Known Member
I forgot to post this part which was most amusing:

Media reporting on the subject has often left outthe fact that the IAAF’s rule only applies to runners with male chromosomes rather than female runners with high testosterone levels.



Ain't that some b.s :rofl: I mean...that means all of the back and forth of this thread is for nothing. Basically, if Caster were intersex, Caster could run against other women without altering her hormones/ If she were a woman with high testosterone levels, she'd be cleared to run against women with normal levels of testosterone (for our sex). And still some would think that's unfair because of the disadvantage of how high her levels are (testosterone) for her sport but if she were a woman, defined, caster would still be able to run.


Their final thoughts on this sum up how reasonable they were being to her and possibly unreasonable to women runners in the field just to work within the context of all these new definitions and identifications that could perhaps compromise women athletes at their expense:

The IAAF called the requirement “an extremely progressive compromise” between protecting the integrity of women’s sports and accommodating “certain biologically male athletes with female gender identities” like Semenya who want to compete in women’s sports, the court documents show.

However Caster's a man, by law (and reality :look: because no one wants to look at that anymore) and as such they are like lower your testosterone if you want to compete. That means because of the condition, they'd allow a man to compete against women in this sport if they would just lower their testosterone. And Caster has the nerve to wanna cry foul. Yes this was a lbgtq+ initiative let's face it that would also lean towards other men like transwomen who want to compete against women.
 
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luckiestdestiny

Well-Known Member
Good! She is a man and that’s final. Go compete with the men. I’ll bet the male athletes will oppose vigorously, are there any FTM fighting to compete with men? It’s usually women, sadly BW for the most part, who have no boundaries and allow anyone to invade our spaces.
I wouldn't say we have no boundaries. We are the most brutalized, ignored, oppressed, and tossed aside. This is dangerous for us because no one is checking for us when we stand for us. People are used to invading our spaces, and/or demanding xyz from us without anything in return (this includes w feminists and onward) and now we are responding appropriately by questioning and pushing back. But as usual we are being battered for our response, silenced, threatened, and gaslighted.

It would make some women apprehensive of continuing the fight. Even in this thread women are mentioning they are "tired" of it all.

Still this is not something that we can ignore unless we want our very lives altered. We will have to cite some of the rulings abroad as they seem to be further along on these trans and other intersex rulings. I believe UK has just had some rulings about this as well. As emphasized we are for the lives of women everywhere and the protection of those marginalized everywhere. One thing does not negate the other. With that said, one cannot succeed at the expense of the other and that's what's happening now with us allowing other to dictate the rules on our spaces.
 

naturalgyrl5199

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't say we have no boundaries. We are the most brutalized, ignored, oppressed, and tossed aside. This is dangerous for us because no one is checking for us when we stand for us. People are used to invading our spaces, and/or demanding xyz from us without anything in return (this includes w feminists and onward) and now we are responding appropriately by questioning and pushing back. But as usual we are being battered for our response, silenced, threatened, and gaslighted.

It would make some women apprehensive of continuing the fight. Even in this thread women are mentioning they are "tired" of it all.

Still this is not something that we can ignore unless we want our very lives altered. We will have to cite some of the rulings abroad as they seem to be further along on these trans and other intersex rulings. I believe UK has just had some rulings about this as well. As emphasized we are for the lives of women everywhere and the protection of those marginalized everywhere. One thing does not negate the other. With that said, one cannot succeed at the expense of the other and that's what's happening now with us allowing other to dictate the rules on our spaces.
You are right. The LGTBQIA community makes it hard to speak out. Birth work communities, and then among black doulas, lactation professionals, we are seen as "phobic" and not an "ally." More and more black women are very very accepting of changing their language. More wt women are pushing back---like JK Rowling. I think that its not a good environment to speak out about these things--yet. Cancel culture is still very strong. For black women in communities who have burgeoning businesses that seek to protect women and their rights its risky. Unfortunately it will have to be at the door step of BW who ally with these groups with something they hold dear at risk before they say something and then it may be too late.

Right now I see BW playing it safe...only using that language in public and then when dealing individually with people, they use the traditional language....I think we need to--for now--let those directly involved deal with it...Caster, the IFAA, men...and keep it moving but MONITOR. There is a push to INFILTRATE us into normalcy. But right now....speaking out too much will end you. A wt woman spoke out about the "birthing person" language erasing "mother" and had her FB page, business, pretty much almost closed down. Kicked out of SM advocacy groups and called all kinds of names including racist because it was a BW using the language. They screen shot her page, picture, profile and it went viral in the doula and lactation groups.....It was a HOT mess. I'm not willing to put black women on the front lines yet. Let WP ppl fight this out. AND THEY are pushing back. Even members of the LGBTQ community are literally REMOVING the "T" part and disassociating themselves from the movement in certain ways (Specifically in the UK per the bolded, italicized above) Not that we shouldn't protect members of the trans community (they need protecting!!!) ...but some of the parts that seek to dilute womanhood and femininity by circular dialogue, removing safe spaces for women (UK rulings addressed this), not accepting being called cis-this and TERF that.... That's where I am right now....
 

luckiestdestiny

Well-Known Member
You are right. The LGTBQIA community makes it hard to speak out. Birth work communities, and then among black doulas, lactation professionals, we are seen as "phobic" and not an "ally." More and more black women are very very accepting of changing their language. More wt women are pushing back---like JK Rowling. I think that its not a good environment to speak out about these things--yet. Cancel culture is still very strong. For black women in communities who have burgeoning businesses that seek to protect women and their rights its risky. Unfortunately it will have to be at the door step of BW who ally with these groups with something they hold dear at risk before they say something and then it may be too late.

Right now I see BW playing it safe...only using that language in public and then when dealing individually with people, they use the traditional language....I think we need to--for now--let those directly involved deal with it...Caster, the IFAA, men...and keep it moving but MONITOR. There is a push to INFILTRATE us into normalcy. But right now....speaking out too much will end you. A wt woman spoke out about the "birthing person" language erasing "mother" and had her FB page, business, pretty much almost closed down. Kicked out of SM advocacy groups and called all kinds of names including racist because it was a BW using the language. They screen shot her page, picture, profile and it went viral in the doula and lactation groups.....It was a HOT mess. I'm not willing to put black women on the front lines yet. Let WP ppl fight this out. AND THEY are pushing back. Even members of the LGBTQ community are literally REMOVING the "T" part and disassociating themselves from the movement in certain ways (Specifically in the UK per the bolded, italicized above) Not that we shouldn't protect members of the trans community (they need protecting!!!) ...but some of the parts that seek to dilute womanhood and femininity by circular dialogue, removing safe spaces for women (UK rulings addressed this), not accepting being called cis-this and TERF that.... That's where I am right now....
Oh for sure. We really need to move in silence and as a community find ways to protect ourselves during these tense times.

This sounds horrible. Cancel culture, though well meaning, needs revising. Meanwhile we need to protect black women instead of throwing ourselves on the front lines. They created most of these problems so they need to fix them (wp, patriarchy, etc)....SO let's let wp, ww and the lgbtq community box it out because we would end up destroyed fighting those fights and our own when they usually use us as a shield and then once they've won whatever objective, they skip off as we are left battered and bruised in the wake. We can support but we need to be careful as you mentioned so that we can still thrive. We already have enough people trying to destroy us, no need to be destroyed in other ways unnecessarily. Still if anything threatens our spaces and our sense of self, we are going to have to find ways to defend our stance in ways that will not have us cancelled so to speak. Because if we wait too long, it will be too late. So it's a balancing act of deciding what's really important and not just when to fight but how.
 

Maguerite

Well-Known Member
I usually enjoy your astute observations but I’m going to have to disagree on some points.
1. I don’t care about other women, only BW. If women of other groups or races were as invested in BW as they claim we would not be the ‘most brutalised, ignored, oppressed & tossed aside group.’ No doubt we have our supporters but what’s key is - they are not enough to effect real change.
2. These terrible experiences are partly due to lack of boundaries. We are too nice, too inclusive, too forgiving. Everyday our collective images are damaged, ridiculed, overlooked, erased. While this happens, NO ONE cares. No one cares enough to fight openly, with us, for us. Biden speaks to of all people Cardi B as a representative of us, where was the universal outrage?
3. I think BW need to stop being reasonable & look out for ourselves and no one else. During wartime people aren’t trying to play nice, they are protecting themselves & their own group. There is a war against the image of BW. Doing the same thing over & over without reaping any benefits sounds suspiciously like insanity. We need to course correct.

I wouldn't say we have no boundaries. We are the most brutalized, ignored, oppressed, and tossed aside. This is dangerous for us because no one is checking for us when we stand for us. People are used to invading our spaces, and/or demanding xyz from us without anything in return (this includes w feminists and onward) and now we are responding appropriately by questioning and pushing back. But as usual we are being battered for our response, silenced, threatened, and gaslighted.

It would make some women apprehensive of continuing the fight. Even in this thread women are mentioning they are "tired" of it all.

Still this is not something that we can ignore unless we want our very lives altered. We will have to cite some of the rulings abroad as they seem to be further along on these trans and other intersex rulings. I believe UK has just had some rulings about this as well. As emphasized we are for the lives of women everywhere and the protection of those marginalized everywhere. One thing does not negate the other. With that said, one cannot succeed at the expense of the other and that's what's happening now with us allowing other to dictate the rules on our spaces.
 

luckiestdestiny

Well-Known Member
I usually enjoy your astute observations but I’m going to have to disagree on some points.
1. I don’t care about other women, only BW. If women of other groups or races were as invested in BW as they claim we would not be the ‘most brutalised, ignored, oppressed & tossed aside group.’ No doubt we have our supporters but what’s key is - they are not enough to effect real change.
2. These terrible experiences are partly due to lack of boundaries. We are too nice, too inclusive, too forgiving. Everyday our collective images are damaged, ridiculed, overlooked, erased. While this happens, NO ONE cares. No one cares enough to fight openly, with us, for us. Biden speaks to of all people Cardi B as a representative of us, where was the universal outrage?
3. I think BW need to stop being reasonable & look out for ourselves and no one else. During wartime people aren’t trying to play nice, they are protecting themselves & their own group. There is a war against the image of BW. Doing the same thing over & over without reaping any benefits sounds suspiciously like insanity. We need to course correct.
We are actually in agreement on all of your points for the most part. On only caring about bw, I get it. I do think of others too, but I do think we deserve the prime spot in protection. Also with number three, I again agree that we need to look out for our stuff first, I do feel that it's personal whether we want to lend support elsewhere in addition to supporting our own initiatives but in general, I agree.

And I do think our image is super important, everything is super important. We're usually told that our opinions need to just be shoved into a corner at the expense of every other group. We sometimes do that to ourselves and each other.

But either way, our first instinct should be to protect ourselves because no one else is doing that job too well. In the past we were taught to overlook our needs and protect out brothers, husbands, and sons instead meanwhile no one shielded us. And we've passed on those instincts which is why you point out that we aren't fighting for specific issues, some of which are valid and need our support. I don't want that used as an excuse to bash ourselves. There are others already doing that. We need to get proactive instead of pointing fingers at ourselves because the whole of the world is doing that. We can see where we need to grow and improve without doing that while supporting our initiatives, goals, lives. A good way of doing that is being real with ourselves like you've done here. We can mention where we lack so we improve without getting into a "that's what you get" or cancel culture mode . We need love and nurturing right now and we need to give that to ourselves in the form of support, love, and the truth when it's valid (some that you've mentioned). Then, we need to put things into action which is the most important thing.

The reason for that post was that I just wanted to point out the other issue of us being silence, battered, threatened, overlooked and gaslit , too when we do defend ourselves because I believe we are exhausted defending ourselves on all ends too. With that said I definitely agree that there are places where we definitely need better boundaries, and there are others where we have fought but are shut down and silenced. It's a catch 22 for us. By mentioning that does not negate the fact that we do have to make certain to stand up and not let things slide in our community.

With that said when I look at your 3rd point, I have mulled over the idea that we should move in secret and develop collective ways to encourage and support ourselves for the time being. And we need to be able to decipher who understands this logic and get with like minded individuals. I shouldn't have to go on the defense to explain that we need some protection, love and support right now. I shouldn't have to explain that some things should be obvious. We need to gather together and plan by finding those of like minds, and if we can't move on our own in secret (I think of both examples as moving in secret because the main plans are obscured from any group except bw, or our own self depending on our choice).

We need to support ourselves and those like us, and no matter what pretty much move quietly to achieve our objectives. When we get in positions of power, we help others move on up too (without announcing it on twitter :lol: so that we can keep on moving other bw up), and so on. In relationships we need to encourage younger women (and ourselves for single women) to practice hypergamy and also making good ethical choices when dating and marrying (determined by our individual needs). It's obvious to all other groups but we are maligned if we speak about it and shamed into trying to make Tyler Perry choices :look: . There are many areas where we need to overcome the blinders placed on us and some where we have begun removing them but still need to make choices without announcing them to other groups who will only judge and/or hinder our progress while trying to pretty much do the same themselves.
 
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Ganjababy

Well-Known Member
I feel sorry for Caster. Though I agree that she should not compete with women, I see her as a woman because she was brought up as a woman/socialized as a woman. So unless she says otherwise, I see her as a lesbian woman. I wish her much success. She can use this opportunity to continue to carve out her path in history. Write a book. Share her experience. Coach. Whatever. Sometimes life gives us lemon and we turn it into key limes (yes, lime) pie...Much love to her.
 
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naturalgyrl5199

Well-Known Member
I feel sorry for Caster. Though I agree that she should not compete with women, I see her as a woman because she was brought up as a woman/socialized as a woman. So unless she says otherwise, I see her as a lesbian woman. I wish her much success. She can use this opportunity to continue carve out her path in history. Write a book. Share her experience. Coach. Whatever. Sometimes life gives us lemons and we turn it into key lime pie...Much love to her.
Me too. My husband only sees a man. I explained to him that its not Caster's fault her mother raised her as a women. Through the eyes of a woman. Which being that she looks very masculine had to be doubly hard. Harder for a child that doesn't look feminine--i.e the majority of us. I'll never take how she came up and had to endure as a child for granted. I can believe it was hard. I just feel that this isn't something BW need to make this our hill to die on. Just take notes. Monitor the situation. I was trying to explain to DH that you cant just make Caster run with men either. Mentally that wouldn't be something her mind could grasp...or feel is right or fair. It wouldn't jive with her understanding of who she is. I empathize with her. But that's it.
 

kupenda

Well-Known Member
What an interesting thread. Caster has male chromosomes therefore Caster is a male, albeit one with low T. However, Caster has been socialized as a female and supposedly lacks the parts to behave as a man within their marriage. I have no problem referring to Caster as a female because medically her situation is special. If she decided she was a man tomorrow I would support that as well. However, medically speaking she is not a female therefore she should not compete against women. This is a tough break. But I don’t believe that the need for social acceptance should override facts. If she’s a low T male, she should compete against men. If she’s not good enough to make it on the men’s team, that doesn’t mean she gets to dominate the women’s.
 
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