How I Learned That Being West Indian Didn't Make Me Better Than African Americans

[michelle81]

lol, see I like it that you don't care, because you shouldn't....can you please school the folks who do...please?

I guess things like that probably vary widely in groups or areas. I work in an area with immigrants from everywhere. Good food brings us all together. Our office pot lucks usually include 7 or 8 different nationalities. All are welcomed.

 

[MsSanz92]

Interesting that people don't consider Haitians West Indian. I personally use WI to refer to people from English speaking Caribbean islands, and people from Belize/the Guyanas, and even to a lesser certain extent, some Central American people like Costa Ricans and Panamanians, as many of them originated from the Caribbean and have Caribbean culture (as in Anglophone Caribbean) even though they're technically part of Latin America. I would also include Haitians and other French/Dutch speaking Caribbean people under the WI umbrella. I wouldn't necessarily call Spanish speaking Caribbean people West Indian because they seem to make it a point in my experience that they're not under the same umbrella and prefer to fall under the mainstream Latino umbrella. I would, however refer to Spanish speaking Caribbean people as Caribbean colloquially, particularly in the instance in reference to someone of mixed West Indian/Spanish speaking Caribbean ancestry. I know a lot of Caribbean Latinos who call themselves Caribena which in English means Caribbean, so it makes sense to me at least to refer to them as Caribbean, but not necessarily West Indian.

 

[prettynatural]

Whatever. This stuff goes both ways. Tons of AAs who feel infinitely superior to WI/Africans.

I don't believe that at all and I've never grew up hearing anything negative about WI people period. Africans and WI are not even on our radar. We are working to feed our families and living our lives to be invested in why another 'foreign' black is better or doing better or worse is a non issue. Besides, I'm from TN and the Caribbean community is so small that there is more cohesion and inclusion within our groups. The WI people and Africans to some extent I know are friendly and attend our schools and join our 'elite' clubs and associations.

Well, I am glad the OP has laid down her inner oppression and see people for who they are, people.

 

[beingofserenity]

I don't believe that at all and I've never grew up hearing anything negative about WI people period. Africans and WI are not even on our radar. We are working to feed our families and living our lives to be invested in why another 'foreign' black is better or doing better or worse is a non issue. Besides, I'm from TN and the Caribbean community is so small that there is more cohesion and inclusion within our groups. The WI people and Africans to some extent I know are friendly and attend our schools and join our 'elite' clubs and associations.

Well, I am glad the OP has laid down her inner oppression and see people for who they are, people.

Yeah, you're right. I suppose I just made that all up in my mind.

 

[prettynatural]

Yeah, you're right. I suppose I just made that all up in my mind.

ah, don't be facetious. Of course there are AA or black Americans who are racist against Africans and Caribbean. I'm not arguing that and it would be ignorant to not believe the bias exist. My stance or position is, AA's mistreat or dislike WI and Africans is not representative of the whole. Case in point, my example of where I currently live and were I was born. There is a very small population of WI that assimilate into the larger dominant group, AA. The African population is much larger and has it's own distinct identity and interactional patterns with the AA group. So, it stands to reason that this phenomena that the OP is discussing maybe more prevalent in REGIONS were all three of the populations co-exist and because of competition for jobs and resources and cultural differences it would be very likely there are bias against and for each group.

ETA: That is why I and others from my area have not ever grew up with bias against WI in particular because we didn't know any or see any. How can there be when there is little media representation of the WI group. Those who live where WI normally immigrant, I would believe it is different. I am not denying your and anyone else's struggle but I want to interject that this seems to be a regional issue from my AA lens. I have sorors who are WI and AA and there are not issues there. I am a licensed mental health professional and have collegues in legal, law enforcement and other medical professions in my region and no big issue. What someone thinks inside their head is there business but outside looking at it, this issue is not a big issue were I live.
That's all I'm saying.

 

[Menina Preta]

I don't think most AAs, who do not live in the Northeast or Miami, have a strong opinion about West Indians, b/c like folks have said we are usually too small of a group to garner much notice in most areas of the US. Like when I went off to college, I noticed that a lot of Southern, Midwestern, and West Coast Blacks didn't really know anything about West Indian culture or even the different islands, until they met first generation kids of WI descent...

 

[RoundEyedGirl504]

All these types of articles do is confirm how deep white supremacy runs. She didn't learn that she wasn't any better than AAs, she learned that WHITE PEOPLE don't think she is any better than AAs. There is a big, big difference there and if the gap will be bridged, it won't be based on that kind of sketchy logic IMO.

OAN, growing up the stereotypes I heard about Haitians were vicious in a way that I couldn't really put into words as a child, but it made me feel some type of way. As an adult, and having actually met a few Haitians, the ones I have encountered tended to be more educated and very conservative, the extreme opposite of their reputation in this country at least. Which makes these articles even stranger to me.

 

[Supervixen]

Growing up AA, I didnt know many blacks of Carribbean or African descent. I was told African men will get you pregnant and go back to Africa on you, African women are mean to AA women and Caribbean people steal. (Fast forward to hs, when the Haitian girl I thought was my bestie stole from me endlessly and would wear the stolen goods to school.)

As a young adult, I used to roll tough with a Haitian girl (not the aforementioned thief) and a Nigerian girl. We had a falling out about something early 20-something women fight over (not a man or anything serious) and they double teamed me with, "we're not descended from slaves."

I had never thought of them as anything more or less than other Black people. Learning about their traditions was fascinating. Needless to say, with an attack on my lineage, I never spoke to either of them again. I was SO HURT--If Haiti/Nigeria are so great and make you better than me/Blacks descended from slaves, why are you here benefitting from being black? Why are you in an AA sorority?

Upon moving to NYC and realizing that among the black people I met there, as an AA, I was in the minority, I heard many, mannny, different versions of the aforementioned theme. It was sickening. At this point, I'll admit, I'm friendly to everyone, and LOVE things like the WI Day parade, but if non-American black people even start with any **** about AAs, my claws come out.

 

[GraceJones]

I love how immigrant Blacks are always so quick to assume that AAs make "excuses" for not being successful, ignoring several things:

1) There are many successful and affluent Black American people and subcultures, that unfortunately, are very elitist and you will never have access to simply because you're an immigrant Black. Some immigrant Blacks sit here and talk a bunch of crap about how lazy AAs are, when they live in the hood. Most immigrants who come here live in large urban cities in lower income communities, so of course the people there aren't the most successful and ambitious!

2) They also are ignorant of the crippling institutional racism that has outcasted many Black people from moving up on the social ladder. Just like in their home countries, there is stifling poverty there. Don't think because the US is a first world nation that poverty just magically disappears. People forget that the "mentality" of poverty is a result of the real social and political hindrances in this country against the social upward mobility of Black people. The level of institutionalized racism is to a magnitude that most immigrant Blacks can't even fathom, because such a system doesn't exist in their home countries. Most Black immigrants come from predominately Black societies, so they never really had to live in a predominately White society that at its foundation is built and sustains itself by doing EVERY AND ANY THING possible to ensure that Black people remain on the bottom of the totem pole. It's systems, it's not just about people being lazy.

3) Not all immigrant Blacks are successful and work hard; there's tons who also are criminals and unproductive members of this society. The knife cuts both ways and I'm sick of people preaching this idea that AAs are just lazy and that all Black immigrant are prospering and it's just NOT TRUE. I know many immigrant Blacks who appear to have success because they choose to work multiple jobs and sacrifice everything to sustain a fake lifestyle, only to either literally work themselves to death, or lose it all because they've taken too much on their plate. One example of this is here in NYC; during the housing bust in 2007-2008, many immigrant Blacks bought overpriced houses in parts of Brooklyn/Queens with subprime mortgages and were left destitute, just to prove the point that they're "better" than these lazy AAs because they have a house. Is that really success though? Your'e either living in the house that you're under water in, and/or are working crazy hours just to get by.

I say all of this that both groups have successful people, and people who are falling by the wayside, and it makes no sense that BOTH groups are trying to one up each other, when we really face pretty much the same plight in this country.

THE BOLDED IS REAL! Some people move back home because they're like I can't take it anymore. This country is going to kill me. You have to work SOOO hard just to get by whereas you could at least be more resourceful with farmland if you were back home. You could at least raise some animals and try to farm or even trade something for some food.

 

[CaraWalker]

Growing up AA, I didnt know many blacks of Carribbean or African descent. I was told African men will get you pregnant and go back to Africa on you, African women are mean to AA women and Caribbean people steal. (Fast forward to hs, when the Haitian girl I thought was my bestie stole from me endlessly and would wear the stolen goods to school.)

As a young adult, I used to roll tough with a Haitian girl (not the aforementioned thief) and a Nigerian girl. We had a falling out about something early 20-something women fight over (not a man or anything serious) and they double teamed me with, "we're not descended from slaves."

I had never thought of them as anything more or less than other Black people. Learning about their traditions was fascinating. Needless to say, with an attack on my lineage, I never spoke to either of them again. I was SO HURT--If Haiti/Nigeria are so great and make you better than me/Blacks descended from slaves, why are you here benefitting from being black? Why are you in an AA sorority?

Upon moving to NYC and realizing that among the black people I met there, as an AA, I was in the minority, I heard many, mannny, different versions of the aforementioned theme. It was sickening. At this point, I'll admit, I'm friendly to everyone, and LOVE things like the WI Day parade, but if non-American black people even start with any **** about AAs, my claws come out.

this forum was the first time i'd ever been verbally exposed to the idea that being a slave descendent was shameful. i deadass believed black people thought of that as evidence of strength and resilience.

 

[Supervixen]

this forum was the first time i'd ever been verbally exposed to the idea that being a slave descendent was shameful. i deadass believed black people thought of that as evidence of strength and resilience.

Me too. That's another reason I was so offended. That comment rocked my whole little world.

 

[Brwnbeauti]

Whatever. This stuff goes both ways. Tons of AAs who feel infinitely superior to WI/Africans.

See I've never encountered this. Ive always had an "we all black" attitude- as have the peeps around me. Maybe that's a unique AA concept-

 

[sharifeh]

Growing up AA, I didnt know many blacks of Carribbean or African descent. I was told African men will get you pregnant and go back to Africa on you, African women are mean to AA women and Caribbean people steal. (Fast forward to hs, when the Haitian girl I thought was my bestie stole from me endlessly and would wear the stolen goods to school.)

As a young adult, I used to roll tough with a Haitian girl (not the aforementioned thief) and a Nigerian girl. We had a falling out about something early 20-something women fight over (not a man or anything serious) and they double teamed me with, "we're not descended from slaves."

I had never thought of them as anything more or less than other Black people. Learning about their traditions was fascinating. Needless to say, with an attack on my lineage, I never spoke to either of them again. I was SO HURT--If Haiti/Nigeria are so great and make you better than me/Blacks descended from slaves, why are you here benefitting from being black? Why are you in an AA sorority?

Upon moving to NYC and realizing that among the black people I met there, as an AA, I was in the minority, I heard many, mannny, different versions of the aforementioned theme. It was sickening. At this point, I'll admit, I'm friendly to everyone, and LOVE things like the WI Day parade, but if non-American black people even start with any **** about AAs, my claws come out.

whoa....those two girls were NOT friends
what the hell?? What kind of warped mentality....?

 

[somewhereinbtwn]

Growing up AA, I didnt know many blacks of Carribbean or African descent. I was told African men will get you pregnant and go back to Africa on you, African women are mean to AA women and Caribbean people steal. (Fast forward to hs, when the Haitian girl I thought was my bestie stole from me endlessly and would wear the stolen goods to school.)

As a young adult, I used to roll tough with a Haitian girl (not the aforementioned thief) and a Nigerian girl. We had a falling out about something early 20-something women fight over (not a man or anything serious) and they double teamed me with, "we're not descended from slaves."

I had never thought of them as anything more or less than other Black people. Learning about their traditions was fascinating. Needless to say, with an attack on my lineage, I never spoke to either of them again. I was SO HURT--If Haiti/Nigeria are so great and make you better than me/Blacks descended from slaves, why are you here benefitting from being black? Why are you in an AA sorority?

Upon moving to NYC and realizing that among the black people I met there, as an AA, I was in the minority, I heard many, mannny, different versions of the aforementioned theme. It was sickening. At this point, I'll admit, I'm friendly to everyone, and LOVE things like the WI Day parade, but if non-American black people even start with any **** about AAs, my claws come out.

Wait the Hatian girl too!? LMAO.

 

[Supervixen]

Wait the Hatian girl too!? LMAO.

RIGHT! Which was another BIG WTF moment for me.

 

[okange76]

Everyone has encountered an other black who has done them wrong. My thing is don't paint every other black you meet with the same brush otherwise you are no better than WP who paint all of us with the same brush. I don't rep all Kenyans or Africans for that matter. I'm just me. If I hurt you, unless you've met all Kenyan or African women, then you can't judge all of them by my poor behavior.

We complain about black people being seen as lazy, liars, thugs, hood rats or welfare queens and refuse to accept that they represent us when dealing with other races. Why can't we give each other the same treatment internally?

Why are we fighting so hard to hate each other? What is the collective benefit?

 

[yardyspice]

All these types of articles do is confirm how deep white supremacy runs. She didn't learn that she wasn't any better than AAs, she learned that WHITE PEOPLE don't think she is any better than AAs. There is a big, big difference there and if the gap will be bridged, it won't be based on that kind of sketchy logic IMO.

OAN, growing up the stereotypes I heard about Haitians were vicious in a way that I couldn't really put into words as a child, but it made me feel some type of way. As an adult, and having actually met a few Haitians, the ones I have encountered tended to be more educated and very conservative, the extreme opposite of their reputation in this country at least. Which makes these articles even stranger to me.

The only conspiracy I believe in is that there's a deliberate attempt to make sure that black groups in this country don't get along. There's power in numbers and whites realize that it is in their best interest to keep us separated. I believe this is the case because of what happened with the first Europeans and African Americans where there were deliberate moves made to make sure the two groups didn't organize.

 

[naturalmanenyc]

I have close friends from Antigua, Jamaica, Tobago, Bahamas, Haiti, Nigeria as well as American Black friends and I didn't realize this was something one needed to "learn".
Or maybe I just am not privy to the private conversation where things like this are discussed.

 

[MsSanz92]

I have close friends from Antigua, Jamaica, Tobago, Bahamas, Haiti, Nigeria as well as American Black friends and I didn't realize this was something one needed to "learn".
Or maybe I just am not privy to the private conversation where things like this are discussed.

I think there's a class/generational element to it. I noticed that as Black immigrants move into the 2nd and 3rd generation and further up the social ladder, the division lessens, as many Black immigrants intermarry with AAs and/or run in social circles/organizations like BGLOs that were created by AAs. Many of the recent immigrants tend to be more clannish, but I think it varies by where the Black immigrant comes from and where they live in the US.

 

[yardyspice]

I think there's a class/generational element to it. I noticed that as Black immigrants move into the 2nd and 3rd generation and further up the social ladder, the division lessens, as many Black immigrants intermarry AAs and/or run in social circles/organizations like BGLOs that were created by AAs. Many of the recent immigrants tend to be more clannish, but I think it varies by where the Black immigrant comes from and where they live in the US.

Studies also show that the education of the 2nd and 3rd gen is on par with AAs.

 

[MsSanz92]

THE BOLDED IS REAL! Some people move back home because they're like I can't take it anymore. This country is going to kill me. You have to work SOOO hard just to get by whereas you could at least be more resourceful with farmland if you were back home. You could at least raise some animals and try to farm or even trade something for some food.

There's a lot more research developing around immigrants who return back to their home countries after living in the US for years, sometimes even decades. Much of this happened during the Great Recession because of the points I mentioned earlier. Why continue to work like a slave in a country where your hard work is barely compensated, on top of having to deal with culture shock, homesickness, racism, etc.? For some immigrants, they bust their asses and are able to provide their kids way more than they could have had they stayed in their home country, but for some, the stress is too much to bare.

 

[Kiowa]

As a black immigrant to the US Of WI heritage, perspectives are certainly different. I don't think it is a better vs worse situation though...the OP thinking her hair would protect sounds naive...However,WP don't make the distinction, and can be largely ignorant...

 

[kanozas]

It seems like, no matter what, people with flawed perspective still think their opinion is the truth. When you consider that the areas most inhabited by descendants/immigrants from the WI's are large cities in the East and in Florida, I still don't comprehend how people arrive at the conclusion that stereotypes against traditional AA's are truthful. If immigrants encounter crime, poorly educated and low moral values in neighborhoods and cities of their own makeup (whether recent immigrants or 2,3rd, 4th generation), how are AA's being targeted as culpable? Few have still addressed the biggest elephant in that article - this perception of AA's. Screw her relaxed dubi's and such.

 

[Femmefatal1981]

People often say negative things about their culture to others. My Haitians step mother told me to never date a Haitian man. She said they were lazy and abusive. At 14 she was the only Haitian I knew so I just took her work for it. Fast forward to college at FAMU and I avoided the Haitian dishes like the plague. Shoot...I avoided all men from south FL. Now of course I learned that she was incorrect but she planted that negative seed about her own culture. I've heard the same from Naija women, Kenyan women, etc. None of them
are married to guys from their own country. But the black American women I know who are married to these guys seem to be quite happy.


As far as saying negative things about non American blacks goes, I didn't grow up with them so it was a nose issue. My first experience was in college and it was negative. It was with a chick ( her sister used to be a popular poster here) who loved to play the struggle Olympics. No matter what you went through her experience back home was worse...I never figured her out. I didn't let her turn me off from having friends from other places. Aside from that I met lots of cool black people from all over. Some weren't so cool and they were just as likely to be from the US as they were from any where else.

 

[CarmelCupcake]

I am not to fond of how some black people from other countries are only black when it is convenient for them. I have a Nigerian friend who is a first generation american. She recently told me that she gets upset when people do not consider her Nigerian since she was born and raised in America and not Nigeria. I mean it really upsets her. She has told me that she does not consider herself African American. She states that she is Nigerian. After she told me this recently, I thought back to the times for instance when her and her sister were stating that black African American women have attitudes. My thing is, if they do not consider themselves African American, they need not talk about us in my presence again. Also, many (not all) Africans, Carribeans, Hatians, etc. will swear up and down that they are not black, but I bet when it comes to applying to grad school, many will check off african american in a heart beat for the affirmative action advantage.

 

[NijaG]

I am not to fond of how some black people from other countries are only black when it is convenient for them. I have a Nigerian friend who is a first generation american. She recently told me that she gets upset when people do not consider her Nigerian since she was born and raised in America and not Nigeria. I mean it really upsets her. She has told me that she does not consider herself African American. She states that she is Nigerian. After she told me this recently, I thought back to the times for instance when her and her sister were stating that black African American women have attitudes. My thing is, if they do not consider themselves African American, they need not talk about us in my presence again. Also, many (not all) Africans, Carribeans, Hatians, etc. will swear up and down that they are not black, but I bet when it comes to applying to grad school, many will check off african american in a heart beat for the affirmative action advantage.

What are you annoyed about though?

I thought the general consensus on this board by African-Americans was that you are a separate distinct group and their own ETHNICITY. Many here have said they don't feel a connection to "Africa" and some don't even want/like the African designation and prefer to be called Black-Americans.

Majority of the census forms I fill out say African-American/Black. When I check that box, I am mentally ticking the Black part of designation, because I consider AA's to be their own ethnicity. That is not a bad thing and AA's should be happy and proud of their ethnicity. All the racial groups have their own distinct sub-groups/ethnicities.

I'm Nigerian/American and my ethnicity is Igbo.

In Nigeria, if I'm mistaken for any other ethnic group (yoruba, efik, etc), I will usually correct the person and let them know I'm Igbo.
In another African or majority black country, if I'm taken as one of the locals, depending on situation, I let them know I'm Nigerian. If they are familiar with Nigeria, most will ask what group/ethnicity.
In the States..... it depends. With AA's, and other black groups the Nigerian parts comes into play as way to identify. With non-black and White people, if the conversation gets that far, then the Nigerian part comes into play. If not, they'll assume I'm AA.

Race is different than ethnicity. Same for nationality

 

[RocStar]

I thought the general consensus on this board by African-Americans was that you are a separate distinct group and their own ETHNICITY. Many here have said they don't feel a connection to "Africa" and some don't even want/like the African designation and prefer to be called Black-Americans.

There is never really a general consensus on this topic or any other topic on this board.

 

[Femmefatal1981]

What are you annoyed about though?

I thought the general consensus on this board by African-Americans was that you are a separate distinct group and their own ETHNICITY. Many here have said they don't feel a connection to "Africa" and some don't even want/like the African designation and prefer to be called Black-Americans.

Majority of the census forms I fill out say African-American/Black. When I check that box, I am mentally ticking the Black part of designation, because I consider AA's to be their own ethnicity. That is not a bad thing and AA's should be happy and proud of their ethnicity. All the racial groups have their own distinct sub-groups/ethnicities.

I'm Nigerian/American and my ethnicity is Igbo.

In Nigeria, if I'm mistaken for any other ethnic group (yoruba, efik, etc), I will usually correct the person and let them know I'm Igbo.
In another African or majority black country, if I'm taken as one of the locals, depending on situation, I let them know I'm Nigerian. If they are familiar with Nigeria, most will ask what group/ethnicity.
In the States..... it depends. With AA's, and other black groups the Nigerian parts comes into play as way to identify. With non-black and White people, if the conversation gets that far, then the Nigerian part comes into play. If not, they'll assume I'm AA.

Race is different than ethnicity. Same for nationality

She didn't say AA...she said they don't want claim black. That's different. We are definitely a different ethnic groups.

 

[LeftRightRepeat]

She's using the two terms (black and AA) to mean AA. There's no way that many people from Africa and the Caribbean could claim that they're not black.

 

[bajandoc86]

She didn't say AA...she said they don't want claim black. That's different. We are definitely a different ethnic groups.

I am not to fond of how some black people from other countries are only black when it is convenient for them. I have a Nigerian friend who is a first generation american. She recently told me that she gets upset when people do not consider her Nigerian since she was born and raised in America and not Nigeria. I mean it really upsets her. She has told me that she does not consider herself African American. She states that she is Nigerian. After she told me this recently, I thought back to the times for instance when her and her sister were stating that black African American women have attitudes. My thing is, if they do not consider themselves African American, they need not talk about us in my presence again. Also, many (not all) Africans, Carribeans, Hatians, etc. will swear up and down that they are not black, but I bet when it comes to applying to grad school, many will check off african american in a heart beat for the affirmative action advantage.

@Femmefatal1981

She used them interchangeably. Ain't no way people from the English speaking Caribbean who are black (not mixed - and maj of those who are mixed with something else identify as black too, unless you live in T&T or Jamaica where there is a much higher percentage of mixing) talking about they don't identify as black.
When census comes around >95% of the population tick that box that has Black next to it.

The 1st generation persons from the African continent or the Caribbean likely identify as black but not AA. Further down the line that changes to AA - usually by 2nd or 3rd generation.