i have a question for catholics

PretteePlease

#fakeworkouts
whats up with the saints and praying to the saings and praying to Mary? I dont understand this at all why isnt this considered idolatry? Do you believe that the dead can intercede for you? I have always wondered this because my mom wanted to be a nun and my sisters went to catholic school so i heard the "Hail Mary"a time or two.
 
Hi there, hopefully my 12 years of Catholic schooling will help here. I'm pretty open about my faith, so please feel free to ask away.

First we believe in the Trinity and that God, Christ, and the Holy Spririt are one in the same.

We hold Mary in the highest esteem as the "Mother of God" Basically since she was chose out of all the young women to bear the Son of God, we feel that she can intercede on our behalf. God did not have to choose his Son to be born of woman but he did, and he chose Mary, the fact that God made this decsion demonstrates the strength and faith that Mary had in God.

Also, Catholics believe that the Christ chose to come into the world through a mother in order that that His mother might accept as His brothers all the children of the sinful race of man. He set an example as to how she should be honored and loved. He prepared her for this motherhood of all by asking her to suffer every conceivable form of pain, thus teaching her sympathy for the sorrows of her children. Had she been His Mother alone, He would have spared her from pain, because He had the power to do so and because He loved her with an infinite love. Amd when Christ was dying He reminded her that she had been destined from the beginning to be a Mother to all. Catholics therefore believe that Mary will be as eager to help them, in troubles of soul and body, as every natural mother is eager to promote the welfare of her child. When we seek her advice and pray to her we do so with the intention as any child would with their own earthly mother.

As for Saints in general we see no issue here concerning idols. It's not so much that we are praying to Saints, but rather asking a Saint to pray with us

"I appeal to you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf" (Romans 15:30).

I guess the best way to describe it is like how some Christians have a prayer circle. For example, when I pray to St. Michael (the archangel who is cast Lucifer into hell at God's instruction), I am asking St. Michael to pray with me in my request that God protect me from harm.

From a historical perspective I enjoy reading/praying to Saints. I see the Saints as people who the faced of every adversity, every threat of harm, and every torture still proclaimed their faith in Christ, and it is my hope that I would have such strength and courage to maintain that faith even wehn things are difficult for me.

As a side note, I guess its kind of weird for me when Christians ask me these uestions because I grew up in New York where I think they have the second highest Catholic Population in the country. When I moved south to the Maryland DC area, I was surprised by a lot of the comments I heard about my faith. Anyway I realize that anwer is kind of choppy (hey I never said I was a scholar) but I hope this helps answer your question.
 

EssentialGrowth

New Member
sunshine91496 said:
Hi there, hopefully my 12 years of Catholic schooling will help here. I'm pretty open about my faith, so please feel free to ask away.

First we believe in the Trinity and that God, Christ, and the Holy Spririt are one in the same.

We hold Mary in the highest esteem as the "Mother of God" Basically since she was chose out of all the young women to bear the Son of God, we feel that she can intercede on our behalf. God did not have to choose his Son to be born of woman but he did, and he chose Mary, the fact that God made this decsion demonstrates the strength and faith that Mary had in God.

Also, Catholics believe that the Christ chose to come into the world through a mother in order that that His mother might accept as His brothers all the children of the sinful race of man. He set an example as to how she should be honored and loved. He prepared her for this motherhood of all by asking her to suffer every conceivable form of pain, thus teaching her sympathy for the sorrows of her children. Had she been His Mother alone, He would have spared her from pain, because He had the power to do so and because He loved her with an infinite love. Amd when Christ was dying He reminded her that she had been destined from the beginning to be a Mother to all. Catholics therefore believe that Mary will be as eager to help them, in troubles of soul and body, as every natural mother is eager to promote the welfare of her child. When we seek her advice and pray to her we do so with the intention as any child would with their own earthly mother.

As for Saints in general we see no issue here concerning idols. It's not so much that we are praying to Saints, but rather asking a Saint to pray with us

"I appeal to you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf" (Romans 15:30).

I guess the best way to describe it is like how some Christians have a prayer circle. For example, when I pray to St. Michael (the archangel who is cast Lucifer into hell at God's instruction), I am asking St. Michael to pray with me in my request that God protect me from harm.

From a historical perspective I enjoy reading/praying to Saints. I see the Saints as people who the faced of every adversity, every threat of harm, and every torture still proclaimed their faith in Christ, and it is my hope that I would have such strength and courage to maintain that faith even wehn things are difficult for me.

As a side note, I guess its kind of weird for me when Christians ask me these uestions because I grew up in New York where I think they have the second highest Catholic Population in the country. When I moved south to the Maryland DC area, I was surprised by a lot of the comments I heard about my faith. Anyway I realize that anwer is kind of choppy (hey I never said I was a scholar) but I hope this helps answer your question.


Who is the God of Catholics? Jesus Christ, or his Father? Also, the Bible says that the true God never had a beginning or an end, but Jesus Christ did. How do you explain this?

As far as Michael the archangel in the book of Revelations, this is actually Jesus Christ, and not a saint. God explicitly stated in the Bible to not idolize, pray to, or have reverential fear for anyone except Him alone. By worshipping saints, Catholics are going against the teachings of the Bible. There are too many contradictions in your response to really understand where you're coming from :scratchch .
 
What do you mean who is the God of Catholics? Catholics believe in the one true God., King of Heaven and Earth. For us Jesus is God, one in the same, no distincition, everyone else (angels, saints, dicisples, etc) are messengers of God, i.e.,their words, actions, and lives reflected the way God wants us to live our lives and as Catholics we ask that they pray for us- it has nothing to do with idoltry.
 

EssentialGrowth

New Member
sunshine91496 said:
What do you mean who is the God of Catholics? Catholics believe in the one true God., King of Heaven and Earth. For us Jesus is God, one in the same, no distincition, everyone else (angels, saints, dicisples, etc) are messengers of God, i.e.,their words, actions, and lives reflected the way God wants us to live our lives and as Catholics we ask that they pray for us- it has nothing to do with idoltry.

'god', 'lord' etc. are all titles and doesn't really refer to a person or being. I don't understand how Jesus can be the true God when the Bible specifically stated that "no one has seen God and lived" (Exodus 33:20). Jesus Christ was seen, and actually walked the earth so the true God cannot be him.

As far as saints, it is not scriptural to pray to saints for them to act as intercessors with God. Jesus Christ said: “You should pray like this: ‘Our Father in heaven, .... ’” so prayers are to be addressed to the Father.

Jesus also said: “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you ask for anything in my name, I will do it.” (Matt. 6:9; John 14:6,14, JB) Thus Jesus ruled out the idea that anyone else could fill the role of intercessor. The apostle Paul added regarding Christ: “He not only died for us—he rose from the dead, and there at God’s right hand he stands and pleads for us.” “He is living for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him” (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25, JB). If we truly want our prayers to be heard by God, it would be wise to approach God in the way that his Word directs--through Jesus Christ. Anything otherwise is idolatry since saints are not needed to approach God in prayer.

I would not prolong this any further......
 

pebbles

New Member
EssentialGrowth said:
'god', 'lord' etc. are all titles and doesn't really refer to a person or being. I don't understand how Jesus can be the true God when the Bible specifically stated that "no one has seen God and lived" (Exodus 33:20). Jesus Christ was seen, and actually walked the earth so the true God cannot be him.

This begs the question, are you Christian, and if so, do you believe in the Holy Trinity? In other words, do you believe in GOD in three persons? If not, that may be the dilemma.
 

Cowgirl

New Member
EssentialGrowth said:
'god', 'lord' etc. are all titles and doesn't really refer to a person or being. I don't understand how Jesus can be the true God when the Bible specifically stated that "no one has seen God and lived" (Exodus 33:20). Jesus Christ was seen, and actually walked the earth so the true God cannot be him.

In Exodus, Moses saw God:
But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" Then the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. "Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen." (Exodus 33:20-23).

Isaiah also saw God:
In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. (Isaiah 6:1) So I said: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts." (Isaiah 6:5)

From my understanding, (which can be corrected) this interpretation is not literal or physical it is spiritual. (….. for no man can see Me and live), I take this to mean that if we ever really get a glimpse of God and see Him for who He really is, the “old self” will die and the “new self” will be born. The old creature will die and the new creature will be born again.
 

AnnDriena_

New Member
Thanks for the help sunshine but I'm afraid I'm a bit more confused.

The Hail Mary is a prayer to Mary. The bible says we are not to pray to anyone but God.

As far as mary being respected because she is the mother of Christ that's great but, and I'm not trying to be funny, I respect my boss in the highest but I'm not going to pray for him. Mary did endur awful things but in that day and age I don't think she was the only one who saw her son die so I don't think she suffered any more greatly than other mothers who experienced the same thing. So the praying to her still stumps me.

And as for asking the saints to pray with you. The saints you are referring to are dead Christians and the dead have no affair with the living. So I'm still having trouble wrapping my heart around that one. I get it with my head and you explained it well but my bible leanings don't agree. And since we as Christians and messengers of God are already saints I don't like the way the catholic church bestows sainthood upon people. There is talk about sainthood for mother theresa (or am I late and it's already been bestowed by the church, correct me on that please) but who are an organization of priests to decide who gets sainthood when God has already granted it to us while we are living? Can you explain how the Catholic Church justifies this?

Another rub for me in praying to the saints is that it's like they are in heaven and some will think that since they are in heaven they have more power and they will look to them to intercede with God on their behalf. And one of the things Jesus had to come down and die for is so that we wouldn't have to go to anyone to intercede on our behalf because the temple priests and money changers who were between man and God was taking advantage of the people and so God was in biblical terms "tired of that mess" and decided he would send a spotless, blameless, perfect lamb that the money changers couldn't say was defective and therefore make the people buy their sacrificial lamb from them at a higher price. So now that Christ has died and their is no one between God and us why pray to saints.

The above paragraphs also tie into why I'd like to know why Catholics have to go to priests to confess their sins? Why is it so important that they be by the side of dying patients in hospital rooms? If your saved then your saved. No priest giving you last rights while you are in a coma is going to make you anymore saved and if you are not saved him praying over you while you are in that coma isn't going to do you good so why is that so important?
 

Tai

New Member
For those of you with various questions about Catholic rituals, you could head to www.catholic.com. There are various articles addressing all of your various questions and clear up the misconceptions that you have. There's also a forum on the site, open to non-Catholics, where you can interact with Catholics and pose questions, if you'd like.

To the person who asked who is the God of Catholics, Catholics are Christians. We, like other Christians, believe in God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. I do not understand why people don't realize that Catholics are Christians, just like Baptists, Protestants, Lutherans, etc.
 

Sweet C

Well-Known Member
Tai said:
For those of you with various questions about Catholic rituals, you could head to www.catholic.com. There are various articles addressing all of your various questions and clear up the misconceptions that you have. There's also a forum on the site, open to non-Catholics, where you can interact with Catholics and pose questions, if you'd like.

To the person who asked who is the God of Catholics, Catholics are Christians. We, like other Christians, believe in God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. I do not understand why people don't realize that Catholics are Christians, just like Baptists, Protestants, Lutherans, etc.

I think the majority of Protestants have the misconceptions about Catholics b/c of some of the rituals u stated above. Also, on this website, it has Protestants as being a "great heresy". See below excerpt from the website:

From http://www.catholic.com/library/Great_Heresies.asp

Protestant groups display a wide variety of different doctrines. However, virtually all claim to believe in the teachings of sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone"—the idea that we must use only the Bible when forming our theology) and sola fide ("by faith alone"— the idea that we are justified by faith only).

The great diversity of Protestant doctrines stems from the doctrine of private judgment, which denies the infallible authority of the Church and claims that each individual is to interpret Scripture for himself. This idea is rejected in 2 Peter 1:20, where we are told the first rule of Bible interpretation: "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation." A significant feature of this heresy is the attempt to pit the Church "against" the Bible, denying that the magisterium has any infallible authority to teach and interpret Scripture.

The doctrine of private judgment has resulted in an enormous number of different denominations. According to The Christian Sourcebook, there are approximately 20-30,000 denominations, with 270 new ones being formed each year. Virtually all of these are Protestant.


The thing here is that this website (not saying all Catholics believe this) that Protestants are a heresy b/c we believe in scripture and faith alone, when I thought that is what the Bible teaches (2 Cor 11:4). Then in the same breath give "infallible authority" to a magisterium, when this practice is not shown anywhere outside of Christ. What it seems to me is that they are saying the proof of this is through denominational differences. Are all Catholic churches the same then? Are they not different denominations and councils WITHIN the Catholic church?
 

Tai

New Member
I didn't state any rituals in my post. I pointed out the website and the fact that Catholics are Christians.
 

Vintagecoilylocks

New Member
As an Orthodox Christian I, I believe in the gospel which says we shall have everlasting life, If you believe on Jesus Christ, therefore the saints that have gone before us are not dead and are in the kingdom. Did not Peter see Jesus on the mount talking with Moses and Elias? Mt. 17:4

Mary interceded on earth to Christ at the wedding which literally promted his first miracle. The married couple did not even realize the help they recieved from Jesus on the request of Mary. Our Lord Jesus showed that the kingdom of heaven (Where the saints are) will not be filled with "dead" people but good and faithful servants being given rule over many things who have entered into thre joy of the Lord. MT.:14,21,23.

We do not confess to the priest. One confesses to Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. The bible states to confess your sins one to another also. Ja 5:16 Some Orthodox churches still do open public confessions. I have not known of to many protesant churches that practice that. My priest openly ask forgivness from the congregation but he confesses to God. The priest acts as a representative of the faithful for the churches that do not do open confession. So he is your witness of your confession to God.

Orthodox ask a saint to pray for them. Whom better then ones who have fought the good fight. Their prayers would be purer than mine and untainted by the earthly desires and burdens. They more than any on earth pray with out ceasing.

Our Lord and Savior taught nothing of solo scipture for nothing he taught was written at the time except his referral to the old testament. The church began years before the word was put to pen. How than did the church grow and thrive. Oral teachings and traditions of what the Lord spoke and was taught by the apostles. 2Th 2:15

There are numerous times when angels interacted with the earthly man.

I have found that much of what is the attack against Catholics is due to the filtering of the scriptures through the protestant view rather than what is really in the scriptures. Many protestant can not agree on scripture so how can solo scripture be valid. who determines what is the correct interpretation. If it is up to each individual than basically each individual is desiding for themselves. That is not what was stated in the bible in the churches.

There is only One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church. No denominations in catholism. A church is based on location just as the churches in the bible were under a different Bishop as the bible states. The Roman church became the western church because of the Islamic invasion into the world and for years cut off the lands of the Eastern Church under its Islamic rule. They even forbade contact between the churches for many years. Eastern Catholics were eastern believers forced to cut off there ties with fellow eastern faithful by the Communist. They aligned with the western church keeping their eastern traditions. The Russian Church had been completely cut off from the other churches under communism til just the last few years and the fall of communism. But we are all Catholic which means universal. There are outer differences and most regions keep local traditions but there is not the severe differance of doctrinal beliefs of the teachings of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to divide the church. Protestants are divided.

Yes it states that the protestants are in heresy. Which means under false teachings.

If you study the Reformation in detail you will find from the very onset of the reformation protestants were a divided people. Unable to agree on the sciptures or the teachings of the church. God is not the creater of confusion. Only man.
 

Sweet C

Well-Known Member
Tai said:
I didn't state any rituals in my post. I pointed out the website and the fact that Catholics are Christians.

Sorry, misunderstanding. I didn't mean u, I meant some that were stated earlier by other posters. Sorry for the confusion. I do agree that Catholics are Christians, b/c they believe that Jesus Christ died for their sins.
 

Sweet C

Well-Known Member
Ok, I must say that I did enjoy reading the post :) , but there are some questions that need to be answered.

Vintagecoilylocks said:
As an Orthodox Christian I, I believe in the gospel which says we shall have everlasting life, If you believe on Jesus Christ, therefore the saints that have gone before us are not dead and are in the kingdom. Did not Peter see Jesus on the mount talking with Moses and Elias? Mt. 17:4.

Ok.

Vintagecoilylocks said:
Mary interceded on earth to Christ at the wedding which literally promoted his first miracle. The married couple did not even realize the help they recieved from Jesus on the request of Mary. Our Lord Jesus showed that the kingdom of heaven (Where the saints are) will not be filled with "dead" people but good and faithful servants being given rule over many things who have entered into thre joy of the Lord. MT.:14,21,23.

This is good, but this is where we start to disagree. The saints are not only in heaven, but are on earth as well. So how can the church appoint sainthood to a select group of people? There are countless scriptures in the Word referring to this (i.e. Acts 9:32; Rom 16:2,15, 2 Cor 1:1, Phillipians 4:21-22 to name a few).

Vintagecoilylocks said:
We do not confess to the priest. One confesses to Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. The bible states to confess your sins one to another also. Ja 5:16 Some Orthodox churches still do open public confessions. I have not known of to many protesant churches that practice that. My priest openly ask forgivness from the congregation but he confesses to God. The priest acts as a representative of the faithful for the churches that do not do open confession. So he is your witness of your confession to God.

The scripture does say confess your faults one to another, but it didn't say that it had to be done in front of the WHOLE church. The second part had me a little confused. I thought if u confess your sins to Christ and repent and turn away from them then its done. I don't understand the witness part, but hey if that what u do, I got no qualms with it

Vintagecoilylocks said:
Orthodox ask a saint to pray for them. Whom better then ones who have fought the good fight. Their prayers would be purer than mine and untainted by the earthly desires and burdens. They more than any on earth pray with out ceasing.

I'm not understanding this. James 5:16 says that The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much, so why would someone else's prayer be more "purer" than yours? We are all to pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17) and for one another (James 5:16).


Vintagecoilylocks said:
Our Lord and Savior taught nothing of solo scipture for nothing he taught was written at the time except his referral to the old testament. The church began years before the word was put to pen. How than did the church grow and thrive. Oral teachings and traditions of what the Lord spoke and was taught by the apostles. 2Th 2:15 .

Exactly, everything he did was based off the OT prophecies and he shut down manly traditions. The early church grew off the basis of the OT, the words of Christ and the teachings of the apostles, you are correct here.

Vintagecoilylocks said:
There are numerous times when angels interacted with the earthly man.

I have found that much of what is the attack against Catholics is due to the filtering of the scriptures through the protestant view rather than what is really in the scriptures. Many protestant can not agree on scripture so how can solo scripture be valid. who determines what is the correct interpretation. If it is up to each individual than basically each individual is desiding for themselves. That is not what was stated in the bible in the churches.

There is only One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church. No denominations in catholism. A church is based on location just as the churches in the bible were under a different Bishop as the bible states. The Roman church became the western church because of the Islamic invasion into the world and for years cut off the lands of the Eastern Church under its Islamic rule. They even forbade contact between the churches for many years. Eastern Catholics were eastern believers forced to cut off there ties with fellow eastern faithful by the Communist. They aligned with the western church keeping their eastern traditions. The Russian Church had been completely cut off from the other churches under communism til just the last few years and the fall of communism. But we are all Catholic which means universal. There are outer differences and most regions keep local traditions but there is not the severe differance of doctrinal beliefs of the teachings of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to divide the church. Protestants are divided.

Yes it states that the protestants are in heresy. Which means under false teachings.

If you study the Reformation in detail you will find from the very onset of the reformation protestants were a divided people. Unable to agree on the sciptures or the teachings of the church. God is not the creater of confusion. Only man.

I will sum all this up real quick. Your main idea is that scripture + traditions should be the basis of the church (correct if wrong). Now tradition is all good if it is based by scripture. My question is what happens when these traditions directly contradict the scripture? Do u go with traditions for unity sake or with the scripture? There are no formal denominations in Catholism, but there are very distinct differences b/t some Catholic churches that if really examined could be probably taken as a denomination. Most protestants disagree on little stuff (like how baptism should be performed), but all agree that u should look to scripture first, not traditions.

And another thing, why aren't priests allowed to marry? Peter was.

Anyways, I digress, so be blessed.
 

Chichi

New Member
I appreciate the questions. Dialogue is a very good thing! I'll take a stab at answering a few of your questions...

The Hail Mary is a prayer to Mary. The bible says we are not to pray to anyone but God.

We are not praying to Mary but prasing her (hail=praise) as in praise you Mary, you are full of grace. Btw, do you know that most of the Hail Mary appears in the bible?

The above paragraphs also tie into why I'd like to know why Catholics have to go to priests to confess their sins? Why is it so important that they be by the side of dying patients in hospital rooms? If your saved then your saved. No priest giving you last rights while you are in a coma is going to make you anymore saved and if you are not saved him praying over you while you are in that coma isn't going to do you good so why is that so important?

We confess our sins to priests because Jesus gave the first priests, His apostles the power to forgive sins; we are following in that tradition... Jesus said to them (and I am paraphrasing), "whoever sins you forgive is forgiven them; whoever sins is nor forgiven is held bound."

We don't have priests in the hospital to save us. Last Rites is the last of our seven scaraments as a Catholic, similar to the blessing that we receive as a child at baptism only it occurs at the near end of life.

Chichi :bdance:

AnnDriena_ said:
Thanks for the help sunshine but I'm afraid I'm a bit more confused.

The Hail Mary is a prayer to Mary. The bible says we are not to pray to anyone but God.

As far as mary being respected because she is the mother of Christ that's great but, and I'm not trying to be funny, I respect my boss in the highest but I'm not going to pray for him. Mary did endur awful things but in that day and age I don't think she was the only one who saw her son die so I don't think she suffered any more greatly than other mothers who experienced the same thing. So the praying to her still stumps me.

And as for asking the saints to pray with you. The saints you are referring to are dead Christians and the dead have no affair with the living. So I'm still having trouble wrapping my heart around that one. I get it with my head and you explained it well but my bible leanings don't agree. And since we as Christians and messengers of God are already saints I don't like the way the catholic church bestows sainthood upon people. There is talk about sainthood for mother theresa (or am I late and it's already been bestowed by the church, correct me on that please) but who are an organization of priests to decide who gets sainthood when God has already granted it to us while we are living? Can you explain how the Catholic Church justifies this?

Another rub for me in praying to the saints is that it's like they are in heaven and some will think that since they are in heaven they have more power and they will look to them to intercede with God on their behalf. And one of the things Jesus had to come down and die for is so that we wouldn't have to go to anyone to intercede on our behalf because the temple priests and money changers who were between man and God was taking advantage of the people and so God was in biblical terms "tired of that mess" and decided he would send a spotless, blameless, perfect lamb that the money changers couldn't say was defective and therefore make the people buy their sacrificial lamb from them at a higher price. So now that Christ has died and their is no one between God and us why pray to saints.

The above paragraphs also tie into why I'd like to know why Catholics have to go to priests to confess their sins? Why is it so important that they be by the side of dying patients in hospital rooms? If your saved then your saved. No priest giving you last rights while you are in a coma is going to make you anymore saved and if you are not saved him praying over you while you are in that coma isn't going to do you good so why is that so important?
 

Chichi

New Member
We are not worshipping the saints at all. They are basically our role models :) . We ask for their intercession for different matters such as health, success, etc. We are in no way saying, I worship you dear saint... but rather please plead to God on my behalf and ask him to help me pass this test. Much in the same way that one would speak to a favorite relative that has since passed. I have never seen anyone bowing down and worshipping a saint. Their statutes abound and their books are plentiful as reminders not so that we could worship them but to remind us that the saints were human (just like us) and that everyone of us should aspire to be saints! (sorry for going on but I have a great affection for the saints!)

The Blessed Virgin Mary is one of our most powerful intercessors. Jesus, Himself, says and shows this. For His very first miracle, the changing of the water into wine at Cana, Jesus' Mother interceded on behalf of the wedding hosts. When they needed more wine they went to His Mother and not Him and then the beautiful miracle happened. Jesus was sitting right there and the wedding hosts knew Him well yet they went to His Mother first...

Jesus is showing us by this story that we can also go through His Mother to reach Him. (We can also go to Him directly, of course, but in His love, He is providing us with another option.) The Jesus is very subtle. He never comes right out and says do this or that. The fact that he started his public ministry with this miracle is very telling. Blessed Virgin Mary has interceded on my behalf many a time.:)

Chichi :bdance:

msportugal said:
whats up with the saints and praying to the saings and praying to Mary? I dont understand this at all why isnt this considered idolatry? Do you believe that the dead can intercede for you? I have always wondered this because my mom wanted to be a nun and my sisters went to catholic school so i heard the "Hail Mary"a time or two.
 

melodee

New Member
As long as we beleive that Jesus is God's son and that he truly died to save us of our sins, and we accept him as the savior of our sins, then we are Christian Believers, no matter what label we wear.

There are non-believers who attend church in every denomination. There are Catholics who follow every ritual, but haven't accepted Jesus (strange but true), and there are Protestant "Christians" who go to church every sunday, and are a member of every committee, but haven't accepted Christ. They don't know how to get to heaven.
 

pebbles

New Member
Vintagecoilylocks said:
As an Orthodox Christian I, I believe in the gospel which says we shall have everlasting life, If you believe on Jesus Christ, therefore the saints that have gone before us are not dead and are in the kingdom. Did not Peter see Jesus on the mount talking with Moses and Elias? Mt. 17:4


Yes it states that the protestants are in heresy. Which means under false teachings.

If you study the Reformation in detail you will find from the very onset of the reformation protestants were a divided people. Unable to agree on the sciptures or the teachings of the church. God is not the creater of confusion. Only man.

I just wanted to point out that there is a significant reason why Moses and Elijah would have appeared with Jesus as opposed to any other men of God, such as David or Noah.

Moses represented the Law and Elijah the prophets. All of the Law and Prophets point to Christ and are fulfilled in Christ (Luke 24:27, Heb 1:1). Not one word of the OT Scriptures will be unfulfilled. The promised Kingdom would be established (Luke 1:32-32, 68-67). Peter understood the significance of seeing Moses and Elijah and said: "We were eyewitnesses of His majesty. . . . And so we have the prophetic word made more sure" (see 2 Peter 1:12)

All that to say that this is probably not the best argument to present for believing that the dead saints are able to intercede on our behalf and move around and pray for us.

Ecclesiastes 9 4:6 says:
For the living know that they will die,

but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,

and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Their love, their hate

and their jealousy have long since vanished;

never again will they have a part

in anything that happens under the sun.


This is what the bible says.

Also, while we may disagree on how service should be conducted and what day to celebrate the Sabbath and a few other things, I would like to see more concrete evidence of what the Catholic Church says has us confused and makes us a "heresy." I was Catholic for 21 years of my life. I attended Catholic School from kindergarden all the way through to my senior year in high school. So the Catholic belief system and doctrine is not new to me. Trust me when I tell you, that the Protestant faith has more things in common that unite us than divide us. And I think that, whether Catholic or Protestant, we are united in the fact that both belief systems know and believe, that JESUS CHRIST is LORD and SAVIOR, and that is the most important thing. The rest, God will deal with. :)
 

Vintagecoilylocks

New Member
Sweet C,

Will continue to try and clarify

When the church "recognizes" a saint they are not appointing them to being a saint over others. If you wanted to have a role model set before your child for your values or the like you would most likey make sure the person truelly embodied the truths and behavior you consider to be in line with what you believe. Its like giving the faithful a "good housekeeping seal" on some one. Many have called them selves christians but do not hold true to the faith and decieve, teach false doctrine and started heresies. Paul warned of that happening even in the early church. At times these people led others away with their false teachings. Christ said many will call me Lord but he will say depart from me for I never knew you. Also many a saints have died unknown to others for the Gory ogf God. The naming a fellow saint that has fought the good fight and won isinspirational. We do not worship them nor mary. The hail mary is the same greeting the angel gave her at the announciation. Can we not say the same the angels say. Pual said to honor the saints. Is it not true that the saints of the old testesmant were pointed out to the faithfu. Did not Christ name these rightgeous men and why they were considered so. Did not Christ honour and set John the Babtist high in the eyes of man? Mt.11:11 Others were named in the scriptures such as in Lu 1:5-6. The Bible is not void of naming those who have walk in the way of God in their life.

The confession to the whole church is to the Body of Christ. Picking and choosing who you would confess to sounds seemly don't you think. But do to size of congregations and time the churches approved the confessions to be said to the priest locally for the Bishops could not be at all congregations at all times. But he represents the church in that capacity. This is a tradition from the early church whicc supports the scriture that confession is by mouth. Not thoughts or only in your heart. It will not change your salvation but in the Catholic church you shall not commune until confession. John stated all could not be put in one book Jn21:25 Tradition must align with the teachings. It is of the teachings. Then the written scripture aligned with those traditions and teachings. I doubt the apostles would have written one thing while doing another. The church gives us the fullness of Christ through the teachings and traditions of the first apostles who were intimate with Christ. 1Jn1:4

If a particular congregation or bishopry has started to deviate as we saw churches in the bible do it is the unchanging doctrine of the church and Christ that will either bring them back or bring attention to the rest of the faithful and try to bring them back. I am not aware of a Eastern church which knowingly is deviating from the known beliefs of the whole church and has not been approach by the rest of the body of christ. I think there are churches that call themselves catholic that are not in communion with the western church and have gone off on their own direction. The church can no longer recognize them only plead they return to correct teachings as Paul taught. As in the early century of the church so called christians sprang up with their versions of Christ and the scriptures. The new testament tells us of these and cautions us to beware of the false doctrine.
The essentials do not change. Salvation, santification, confession and forgiveness, the nature of God and Our Lord, grace, communion, babtism.

Protestant differ on more than the methods of babtism but the understanding of it also, salvation doctrines sharply conflict such as calvinism, armeniaism, definate atonment, pelggiusm and a host of others. These greatly affect ones understanding of Christ, and who he is. Many are not in communion with one another and many have not respectue of difference and allow any one to commune. Why so many dinominations. This is not in keeping with scripture. So what do they agree on if they have gone so far out of their way to be separate. He liberalism often allows for going far beyond obeying the Lords commanments. Paul admonished division in the church.


The practise of Priest in the western church not marrying was done long ago for the sake of them and the flock. They had problems with good order with it. It was decided to go with pauls teachings on married and unmarried and it has worked for them. The faithful support it and no man is forced into the preist hood. The eastern Church did not encounter the same difficulties in history and have retained a married priesthood. However he must be the husband of one wife prior to entering the priesthood. So must the deacons.
Bishops are widowers or unmarried. The church is responsible for the care of all. As Paul says the duty of a husband and father are great. That is why he must have been married and show an orderly life and family before he can go to the preisthood or remain unmarried. Many of our priest are "tent maker" preist. They hold full time jobs. The duty of a priest to his flock and family and job is a delicate balance and one not every one could handle. 1cor7:32-35. The faithful support these things for the care of the men aswell as the congregation.

I have been justified and with my heart I believe unto rightenous but I must humbly refrain from declaring myself so righteous at to not need or desire the prayers of those who are santified. I also could not declare that with purity and constant deligence I pray without ceasing. For I am a sinner who has fallen short of the Gory of God. Christ promise tells me the santified are in constant prayer and praise in their purity before the Lord. If someone is that righeous here now then God bless them and they can for go any assistance from the saints on heaven and on earth. That is not I.
 

Cowgirl

New Member
Ladies, I am a Christian; however, not Catholic. But I have had some of the same questions that have been posed in this thread. Anyway, I just wanted to say THANKS, to all of you who have been so patient and diligent in your responses & dialoque without being offended by the questions. I know we do not all agree on certain traditions and beliefs; but it's still good to have healthy informative dialogue. That's why I love you guys. :D Be Blessed and now I'll shut up.
 

Vintagecoilylocks

New Member
Hi Pebbles,

Forgive my ignorance but would you explain your use of that verse from Ecclesiates in relationship to salvation and everlasting life, the promise if I believe on Him, going to be with the Lord, being a good and faithful servant and being brought into the Glory of the Lord. In what context is that verse reconciling the Good news.
None the less why they were chosen to be revealed they were talking to the living Jesus and seen by the living Peter.
 

pebbles

New Member
Sure, I'll try to explain it as best as I can. There is the belief that when someone dies, they go straight to heaven, get wings, can see their loved ones here on earth, can guide us, etc. As comforting as the thought is, that is not supported by scripture.

The bible says in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed– in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[g] “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”[h] The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."


The last trumpet sound will be at the return of Jesus Christ. The dead shall rise, and we shall all stand before the judgement throne of Christ.

John 5: 28-30 says:
"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out–those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me."

Nowhere in scripture do we ever see the living praying or asking the dead for help. And mighty men of God have passed on. Surely if this were acceptable, we'd see people in the bible praying to saint Abraham or Isaac, or Moses, etc. And the bible says that the dead shall rise to be judged, so where are they now? I don't think that they are in heaven only to have to leave again to be judged. That doesn't make much sense.

Some believe that when you die, you're going where you are meant to go, be it heaven or hell, but scripture doesn't seem to support that theory. It would appear that the departed souls are in the hands of the father, but waiting for the trumpet to sound to rise again. Which would clearly reconcile with Ecclesiates 9.

Scripture is clear that when Jesus returns, He's coming to judge the living and the dead. I hope I was able to explain myself a little better. :)
 
Last edited:

PretteePlease

#fakeworkouts
i must admit i am still confused i read thru and i went to catholic.com and i have even more questions. especially about heresy i really need to get into a good bible study class
 

Sweet C

Well-Known Member
Vintagecoilylocks said:
The practise of Priest in the western church not marrying was done long ago for the sake of them and the flock. They had problems with good order with it. It was decided to go with pauls teachings on married and unmarried and it has worked for them. The faithful support it and no man is forced into the preist hood. The eastern Church did not encounter the same difficulties in history and have retained a married priesthood. However he must be the husband of one wife prior to entering the priesthood. So must the deacons.
Bishops are widowers or unmarried. The church is responsible for the care of all. As Paul says the duty of a husband and father are great. That is why he must have been married and show an orderly life and family before he can go to the preisthood or remain unmarried. Many of our priest are "tent maker" preist. They hold full time jobs. The duty of a priest to his flock and family and job is a delicate balance and one not every one could handle. 1cor7:32-35. The faithful support these things for the care of the men aswell as the congregation.

The practice of not marrying was instituted by man. Yes, Paul taught that its better to be single to serve the Lord, but not required. Priscilla and Aquila headed up a church together (1 Cor 16:19) and in the bible when it gives the breakdown of bishop and deacons, their families and household and how they are managed are critical criteria for such an office. No man is forced to be a priest, but if a man was called by God to marry and he was already a priest, would he be forced to leave his post? The term priest is more or less utilized when talking about the Jewish temple and at least some of them married in order to continue a lineage of priests in the Levite tribe.

Vintagecoilylocks said:
The confession to the whole church is to the Body of Christ. Picking and choosing who you would confess to sounds seemly don't you think. But do to size of congregations and time the churches approved the confessions to be said to the priest locally for the Bishops could not be at all congregations at all times. But he represents the church in that capacity. This is a tradition from the early church whicc supports the scriture that confession is by mouth. Not thoughts or only in your heart. It will not change your salvation but in the Catholic church you shall not commune until confession. John stated all could not be put in one book Jn21:25 Tradition must align with the teachings. It is of the teachings. Then the written scripture aligned with those traditions and teachings. I doubt the apostles would have written one thing while doing another. The church gives us the fullness of Christ through the teachings and traditions of the first apostles who were intimate with Christ. 1Jn1:4 .

Now, did the scripture say to one another or to everybody (everyone who goes to church is not necessarily a member of the Body of Christ). Its not a case of picking or choosing. If u want to confess to the priest, hey I got no qualms with it but where in the scripture do you find people confessing to Peter, Paul, etc and people being excluding from fellowship from not physically confessing to the pastor? Aren't we all the church, not just the pastor?

Vintagecoilylocks said:
When the church "recognizes" a saint they are not appointing them to being a saint over others. If you wanted to have a role model set before your child for your values or the like you would most likey make sure the person truelly embodied the truths and behavior you consider to be in line with what you believe. Its like giving the faithful a "good housekeeping seal" on some one. Many have called them selves christians but do not hold true to the faith and decieve, teach false doctrine and started heresies. Paul warned of that happening even in the early church. At times these people led others away with their false teachings. Christ said many will call me Lord but he will say depart from me for I never knew you. Also many a saints have died unknown to others for the Gory ogf God. The naming a fellow saint that has fought the good fight and won isinspirational. We do not worship them nor mary. The hail mary is the same greeting the angel gave her at the announciation. Can we not say the same the angels say. Pual said to honor the saints. Is it not true that the saints of the old testesmant were pointed out to the faithfu. Did not Christ name these rightgeous men and why they were considered so. Did not Christ honour and set John the Babtist high in the eyes of man? Mt.11:11 Others were named in the scriptures such as in Lu 1:5-6. The Bible is not void of naming those who have walk in the way of God in their life. .

Give honor to where honor is due (Rom 13:7). I get that, but giving honor and praying to them (or asking someone who is no longer alive to pray for you) are two different things. When Paul said to honor the saints, he was stating all those who are members of the body of Christ, that have fought and are fighting the good fight of faith to honor them. We are also to honor those who have rule over us such as government officials, as well as all men (1 Pet 2:17). That's right Jesus did honor John the Baptist by saying there is none greater born of woman, but did he pray to him or ask him to pray for him? Since John the Baptist is the greatest born of women, why is Elizabeth not elevated like Mary is in the Catholic Church?

Vintagecoilylocks said:
If a particular congregation or bishopry has started to deviate as we saw churches in the bible do it is the unchanging doctrine of the church and Christ that will either bring them back or bring attention to the rest of the faithful and try to bring them back. I am not aware of a Eastern church which knowingly is deviating from the known beliefs of the whole church and has not been approach by the rest of the body of christ. I think there are churches that call themselves catholic that are not in communion with the western church and have gone off on their own direction. The church can no longer recognize them only plead they return to correct teachings as Paul taught. As in the early century of the church so called christians sprang up with their versions of Christ and the scriptures. The new testament tells us of these and cautions us to beware of the false doctrine.
The essentials do not change. Salvation, santification, confession and forgiveness, the nature of God and Our Lord, grace, communion, babtism.

Protestant differ on more than the methods of babtism but the understanding of it also, salvation doctrines sharply conflict such as calvinism, armeniaism, definate atonment, pelggiusm and a host of others. These greatly affect ones understanding of Christ, and who he is. Many are not in communion with one another and many have not respectue of difference and allow any one to commune. Why so many dinominations. This is not in keeping with scripture. So what do they agree on if they have gone so far out of their way to be separate. He liberalism often allows for going far beyond obeying the Lords commanments. Paul admonished division in the church.

I don't understand this. You say that members of Protestant groups differ, but in the same breath, you have a split b/t the Catholic church into Eastern/Western churches (i.e. some churches allow marriage and others do not).....hmm...sounds like a denomination to me. Many denominations in the Protestant church come together, and have respect for one another. So if there are divisions within both branches, how are we then a heresy?

Vintagecoilylocks said:
I have been justified and with my heart I believe unto rightenous but I must humbly refrain from declaring myself so righteous at to not need or desire the prayers of those who are santified. I also could not declare that with purity and constant deligence I pray without ceasing. For I am a sinner who has fallen short of the Gory of God. Christ promise tells me the santified are in constant prayer and praise in their purity before the Lord. If someone is that righeous here now then God bless them and they can for go any assistance from the saints on heaven and on earth. That is not I.

Check out pebbles post earlier as in regarding prayer. We all need prayer from the people of God, but the power of prayer is in when we touch and agree (mt 18:19). How can you touch agree with someone who is passed away? Where in scripture do u find any of the apostles praying to anyone but Jesus and asking the saints of God (those alive) to pray for him?

The problem with man is that he is that he sins. We all do. So why would I put "infallible" authority into a tradition of man that can't be scripturally supported? Even Paul rebuked Peter when he shunned the Gentiles, when he met with the Jews (Galatians 2). When looking at the Reformation during the time of Martin Luther, one of the reasons he has issues with the Catholic church was b/c the pope at that time was not walking according to the statues laid out by scripture and no one said anything, b/c tradition gave him infallible authority. Scripture points out that in 1 Cor 5:11, that if a brother in the faith is in error, has been warned, and doesn't repent, then he is to be excluded from fellowship. Is this not what the apostles would have done?

Just out of curiousity, are there prophets in the Catholic church?
 
Last edited:

pebbles

New Member
Great post, Sweet C. :) And in answer to your question:
Sweet C said:
Just out of curiousity, are there prophets in the Catholic church?
The answer is no. Apart from the priests, cardinals, etc, there are no prophets in the Catholic Church. :)
 

Edie

New Member
Why are you guys arguing about catholic practices or beliefs. We shall answer to one God. I myself questions some of the beliefs of catholics, but I am not going to bash them over the head for it. They believe in praying to saints (who are long dead) and also to the mother Mary or asking them to pray for them. I pray to God in Jesus name through the Holy Spirit. When I feel I need extra help, I will ask the Holy Spirit to pray for me. If catholics want to pray to Mary or long dead saints for help, let them. That is between them and God. But as for me, I always go the Head Honcho for help. No minions for me.
 

Edie

New Member
melodee said:
As long as we beleive that Jesus is God's son and that he truly died to save us of our sins, and we accept him as the savior of our sins, then we are Christian Believers, no matter what label we wear.

There are non-believers who attend church in every denomination. There are Catholics who follow every ritual, but haven't accepted Jesus (strange but true), and there are Protestant "Christians" who go to church every sunday, and are a member of every committee, but haven't accepted Christ. They don't know how to get to heaven.

Amen to that sister. No ritual will save you but faith in Christ Jesus. Does this mean that we should live our lives as WE choose. No! Faith without works is dead! True faith will always produce works. Works are based on acts of love. And I know for a fact that I see catholics, baptists, protestants, and every other denomination not practicing the act of love as they should. Our work will either approve us or condemn us.
 

Edie

New Member
May I ask the catholics here a question. I have a catholic church down the road from me and while driving by their a few months ago, their was a sign up that said "Please come back". My husband said that a lot of catholics are pulling away from the catholic church because of the scandal with the priests molesting children. There were over a hundred thousand molestation cases brought forth. Okay. My question is this. If the catholic church covered up the molestation of these children by their priests for decades, how can you trust them not to have covered up other things. After all, these are children we are talking about. If you can't trust them to protect your children (your most precious possession) what can you trust them with? I am not trying to start an arguement, but as a mother and a christian, I would like to know.
 

MeccaMedinah

Active Member
I also have some questions. What is the Pope's significance? It seems that he is worshipped; I heard on the news that if he dies the Catholic church will be in disarray. Also why are rosary beads so important? They also appear to be an icon.
 
Top