If you don't speak in tongues - you don't have the Holy Spirit.

[MindTwister]

Maybe it depends on the context of the conversation. Tongues may seem to get all the attention because there is confusion between the Acts 2 explanation of tongues to EVERY BELIEVER versus the 1 Corinthians 14 manifestations of the Holy Spirit, of which one of the nine is gift of tongues.

This is something else that I don't understand: what exactly is the difference between what occurs in Acts 2 and what Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians?

 

[divya]

Thanks for the link, I'll take a look at it

You're welcome. I believe it will answer the questions that you are asking.

 

[PaperClip]

In an ealier post you said that speaking in tongues is a VITAL part of a believer's walk. May I know why it's a vital part of one's walk?


What purpose do speaking in tongues specifically serve in the Bible? If you could please answer me with specific scriptures I'd appreciate it (not because I'm trying to be argumentative lool, just trying to have reference points since I'm not that well versed in the topic)

If the puprpose of speaking in tongues is to edify the body and/or to spread God's Word and be able to minister to others in their own language, why would there be a need for a new language?
That's why I'd like to know the original purpose of speaking in tongues

I outlined several scriptures in previous posts....

Speaking in tongues is a vital part of our Christian walk because He helps in our prayers and to give us power and strength to live our personal lives (and bear fruit) and to minister to others.

I think it would be more efficient to refer you to this link as it addresses your questions succinctly. http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/gifts/index.htm

 

[PaperClip]

This is something else that I don't understand: what exactly is the difference between what occurs in Acts 2 and what Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians?

I kindly refer you to Post #2. I kinda feel like I'm repeating myself. I gave scriptures there.

I'll add here that the link between the two scripture references is that they both originate from the SAME HOLY SPIRIT....

 

[divya]

This is something else that I don't understand: what exactly is the difference between what occurs in Acts 2 and what Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians?

Actually, there is really no difference as far as this discussion is concerned. The purpose of speaking in tongues is for evangelism/ministry, which is why it means languages that can be understood.

 

[PaperClip]

Actually, there is really no difference as far as this discussion is concerned. The purpose of speaking in tongues is for evangelism/ministry, which is why it means languages that can be understood.

There's also a personal purpose for speaking in tongues:

1 Corinthians 14:4
"He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."

 

[divya]

There's also a personal purpose for speaking in tongues:

1 Corinthians 14:4
"He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."

If we read the entire chapter in context, the Bible is not speaking favorably upon speaking a tongue that cannot be understood and/or edify others.

From 1 Corinthians 14...

4 - He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5 - I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

6 - Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

9 - So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

10 - There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

11 - Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

12 - Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

 

[Blessed2bless]

Amen....This is the Truth

Two interesting passgages I read in regards to speaking in tongues:

The first occurrence of speaking in tongues occurred on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2:1-4. The apostles went out and shared the Gospel with the crowds, speaking to them in their own languages, “we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" (Acts 2:11). The Greek word translated "tongues" literally means "languages." Therefore, the gift of tongues is speaking in a language a person does not know in order to minister to someone who does speak that language. In 1 Corinthians chapters 12-14, where Paul discusses miraculous gifts, he comments that, “Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?" (1 Corinthians 14:6). According to the Apostle Paul, and in agreement with the tongues described in Acts, speaking in tongues is valuable to the one hearing God’s message in his/her own language, but it is useless to everyone else – unless it is interpreted / translated.

A person with the gift of interpreting tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30) could understand what a tongues-speaker was saying even though he/she did not know the language that was being spoken. The tongues-interpreter would then communicate the message of the tongues-speaker to everyone else, so all could understand. “For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says” (1 Corinthians 14:13). Paul’s conclusion regarding un-interpreted tongues is powerful, “But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue" (1 Corinthians 14:19).

Is the gift of tongues for today? 1 Corinthians 13:8 mentions the gift of tongues ceasing, although it connects the ceasing with the arrival of the "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Some point to a difference in the language in prophecy and knowledge "ceasing" with tongues "being ceased" as evidence for tongues ceasing before the arrival of the "perfect." While possible, this is not explicitly clear from the text. Some also point to passages such as Isaiah 28:11 and Joel 2:28-29 as evidence that speaking in tongues was a sign of God's oncoming judgment. 1 Corinthians 14:22 describes tongues as a "sign to unbelievers." According to this argument, the gift of tongues was a warning to the Jews that God was going to judge Israel for rejecting Jesus Christ as Messiah. Therefore, when God did in fact judge Israel (with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70), the gift of tongues would no longer serve its intended purpose. While this view is possible, the primary purpose of tongues being fulfilled does not necessarily demand its cessation. Scripture does not conclusively assert that the gift of speaking in tongues has ceased.

At the same time, if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language (1 Corinthians 14:10). It would be for the purpose of communicating God's Word with a person of another language (Acts 2:6-12). It would be in agreement with the command that God gave through the Apostle Paul, "If anyone speaks in a tongue, two — or at the most three — should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God" (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). It would also be in submission to 1 Corinthians 14:33, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”

God most definitely can give a person the gift of speaking in tongues to enable him/her to communicate with a person who speaks another language. The Holy Spirit is sovereign in the dispersion of the spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:11). Just imagine how much more productive missionaries could be if they didn’t have to go to language school, and were instantly able to speak to people in their own language. However, God does not seem to be doing this. Tongues does not seem to occur today in the form it did in the New Testament despite the fact that it would be immensely useful. The vast majority of believers who claim to practice the gift of speaking in tongues do not do so in agreement with the Scriptures mentioned above. These facts lead to the conclusion that the gift of tongues has ceased, or is at least a rarity in God's plan for the church today

_________________

There are three occasions in the book of Acts where speaking in tongues accompanied the receiving of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4; 10:44-46; 19:6). However, these three occasions are the only places in the Bible where speaking in tongues is an evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit. Throughout the book of Acts thousands of people believe in Jesus and nothing is said about them speaking in tongues (Acts 2:41; 8:5-25; 16:31-34; 21:20). Nowhere in the New Testament is it taught that speaking in tongues is the only evidence a person has received the Holy Spirit. In fact, the New Testament teaches the opposite. We are told that every believer in Christ has the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:13-14), but not every believer speaks in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:29-31).

So, why was speaking in tongues the evidence of the Holy Spirit in those three passages in Acts? Acts chapter 2 records the apostles being baptized in the Holy Spirit and empowered by Him to proclaim the Gospel. The Apostles were enabled to speak in other languages (tongues) so they could share the truth with people in their own languages. Acts chapter 10 records the Apostle Peter being sent to share the Gospel with non-Jewish people. Peter and the other early Christians, being Jews, would have a hard time accepting Gentiles (non-Jewish people) into the church. God enabled the Gentiles to speak in tongues to demonstrate that they had received the same Holy Spirit that the apostles had received (Acts 10:47; 11:17).

Acts 10:44-47 describes this, “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 'Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.'” Peter later points back to this occasion as proof that God was indeed saving the Gentiles (Acts 15:7-11).

Speaking in tongues is not presented anywhere in the Bible as something Christians should expect when they receive Jesus Christ as their Savior and are therefore baptized in the Holy Spirit.. In fact, out of all the conversion accounts in the New Testament, only two record speaking in tongues in that context. Tongues was a miraculous gift that had a specific purpose for a specific time. It was not, and never has been, the evidence of the reception of the Holy Spirit.


Note: I won't be back until day after tomorrow but I cannot wait to read your opinions on all of this.

 

[PaperClip]

If we read the entire chapter in context, the Bible is not speaking favorably upon speaking a tongue that cannot be understood and/or edify others.

Yes, when one is gathered with other believers, e.g., a church service, not in one's personal/private time with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 14

Verse 4: Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Verse 18: I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Verse 19: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Verse 23: If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Verse 26: How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Verse 27: If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

Verse 28: But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

 

[divya]

Yes, when one is gathered with other believers, e.g., a church service, not in one's personal/private time with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 14

Verse 4: Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Verse 18: I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Verse 19: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. Further, there is a deeper meaning to these verses...

Verse 23: If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Verse 26: How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Verse 27: If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

Verse 28: But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

"Speaking in tongues" is for the purpose of the edification of others/for the ministry - that is the spiritual gift. That is why it is referred to when in the presence of others, both in Corinthians and in Acts.

 

[PaperClip]

"Speaking in tongues" is for the purpose of the edification of others/for the ministry - that is the spiritual gift. That is why it is referred to when in the presence of others, both in Corinthians and in Acts.

It is also for personal edification....
1 Corinthians 14:4: "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."

The manifestation of the gift of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14 is usually accompanied by the interpretation of tongues. It is this PAIRING that serves to edify others. That's why the Bible says that if one is speaking in tongues in the presence of others and there is no interpreter, then that one should keep silent in the church (but still speak to himself and to God).

Verse 26: How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Verse 27: If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

Verse 28: But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

 

[kblc06]

Do you have any scriptural references to support this?

Not except that before the fall of the Tower of Babel & humans were dispersed and their tongues confused (I have to look up the exact passage), it appeared they spoke with the same tongue as referenced by the passage (I believe it takes place in the later part of Genesis or early Exodus in the KJV).

But there are linguistic studies that demonstrate this property as well (human infants' capacity for reproducing all sound that occur in human language). As we grow accostumed to our native tongue, we lose this ability (as a neurons are pruned off-and others develop more rapidly) to increase our fluency in our home language. We also lose the ability to discern distinct *phonemes* as we develop fluency in our native language (in a monolingual child). This limits adult's plasticity for learning, especially language and its also why if you introduce a child to multiple languages early on, they maintain their ability to produce certain sounds of various languages and easily distinguish them. If children were never exposed to a language, but had human interaction, they would for some type of language as a form of communication to understand one another-this is how creoles, and pidgins (combination of language structures) form.

I have tons of info & articles that I can pm you from my Brain & Cognitive Sci. 172 course (currently taking)

Note: (*phonemes-examples: p, pa, pha, enunciations that occur in Thai & English but produce slight variations in articulation indistinguishable to adult speakers of English)

 

[divya]

Not except that before the fall of the Tower of Babel & humans were dispersed and their tongues confused (I have to look up the exact passage), it appeared they spoke with the same tongue as referenced by the passage (I believe it takes place in the later part of Genesis or early Exodus in the KJV).

But there are linguistic studies that demonstrate this property as well (human infants' capacity for reproducing all sound that occur in human language). As we grow accostumed to our native tongue, we lose this ability (as a neurons are pruned off-and others develop more rapidly) to increase our fluency in our home language. We also lose the ability to discern distinct *phonemes* as we develop fluency in our native language (in a monolingual child). This limits adult's plasticity for learning, especially language and its also why if you introduce a child to multiple languages early on, they maintain their ability to produce certain sounds of various languages and easily distinguish them. If children were never exposed to a language, but had human interaction, they would for some type of language as a form of communication to understand one another-this is how creoles, and pidgins (combination of language structures) form.

I have tons of info & articles that I can pm you from my Brain & Cognitive Sci. 172 course (currently taking)

Note: (*phonemes-examples: p, pa, pha, enunciations that occur in Thai & English but produce slight variations in articulation indistinguishable to adult speakers of English)

Thanks for responding. The Tower of Babel dealt with different languages as well. I appreciate the information regarding linguistics and do agree to a large extent. I honestly would like to have Biblical support as it relates to the speaking of tongues. Anything in science must be in accordance with Scripture, as God is the creator of it all.

 

[MindTwister]

I outlined several scriptures in previous posts....

Speaking in tongues is a vital part of our Christian walk because He helps in our prayers and to give us power and strength to live our personal lives (and bear fruit) and to minister to others.

I think it would be more efficient to refer you to this link as it addresses your questions succinctly. http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/gifts/index.htm

Thanks for your answer.
I have read the scriptures you quoted in your second post in this thread and read the link you gave me
After all the reading, my understanding is that in the end all the gifts of the Spirit are vital.

Still don't see the difference between Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians 12-14. I read and re-read the scriptures you gave (Acts 2:38 and 1 Corinthians 12:4-11) and neither enlightens as to that difference I have a headache trying to figure it out loool.
Acts 2:38 says that one who repents and is baptized receives God's gift of the Holy Spirit
1 Corinthians 12:4-7 tells me different gifts are given to different people but all by the work of God's Holy Spirit

Unless I'm not understanding these 2 scriptures right, I still do not get how the occurence in Acts 2 is different from what is spoken of 1 Corinthians

And RR I'm not being difficult or trying to be argumentative as I said, loool I'm seriously not understanding how to get the response to my questions to the scriptures you gave or from the link you gave (which to me just basically explain the what, why and how of spiritual gifts and doesn't contrast Acts 2 to 1 Corinthians). Sorry also if you feel like you've been repeating yourself

ETD: I deleted the first sentence because I realized after reading that I understand how edifying ourselves relates to strengthening ourselves and bearing fruits

 

[PaperClip]

Thanks for your answer. That said I don't get how speaking in tongues specifically helps live our personal lives and bear fruits. I though the Holy Spirit did that, not the tongues which from the scriptures I read are for the edification of the body and our own.
I have read the scriptures you quoted in your second post in this thread and read the link you gave me
After all the reading, my understanding is that in the end all the gifts of the Spirit are vital.

Still don't see the difference between Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians 12-14. I read and re-read the scriptures you gave (Acts 2:38 and 1 Corinthians 12:4-11) and neither enlightens as to that difference I have a headache trying to figure it out loool.
Acts 2:38 says that one who repents and is baptized receives God's gift of the Holy Spirit
1 Corinthians 12:4-7 tells me different gifts are given to different people but all by the work of God's Holy Spirit

Unless I'm not understanding these 2 scriptures right, I still do not get how the occurence in Acts 2 is different from what is spoken of 1 Corinthians

And RR I'm not being difficult or trying to be argumentative as I said, loool I'm seriously not understanding how to get the response to my questions to the scriptures you gave or from the link you gave (which to me just basically explain the what, why and how of spiritual gifts and doesn't contrast Acts 2 to 1 Corinthians). Sorry also if you feel like you've been repeating yourself

Our exchange is part of learning and getting insight. I'm learning and getting more understanding as we share and unpack this together.

I believe the distinction betwen Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 is this:

Acts 2 shows us that the Holy Spirit imparts Himself into every believer (who chooses to receive Him) and for the Holy Spirit to help us in our daily Christian walk...our personal edification. 1 Corinthians 14:4: "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."

1 Corinthians 14 are NINE SPECIFIC MANIFESTATIONS of the Holy Spirit (ONE being "gift of tongues") that comes forth to bring REVELATION. Note that the RIGHT AFTER the "gift of tongues" in this passage is mentioned, "interpretation of tongues" is there, because these two manifestations work TOGETHER.

The manifestation of the gift of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14 is usually accompanied by the interpretation of tongues. It is this PAIRING that serves to edify others. That's why the Bible says that if one is speaking in tongues in the presence of others and there is no interpreter, then that one should keep silent in the church (but still speak to himself and to God).

Verse 26: How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Verse 27: If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

Verse 28: But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

 

[Southernbella.]

I found an old post of mine on this subject.

The gift of tongues is but ONE gift given by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:4-12


4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

Not everyone receives the same gifts. Also, Paul doesn't consider tongues to be the most important gift:

1 Corinthians 14:14-19


14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand[a] say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

See also:

1 Corinthians 14:5

5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[a] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,[b] unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

 

[divya]

It is also for personal edification....
1 Corinthians 14:4
"He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."

The manifestation of the gift of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14 is usually accompanied by the interpretation of tongues. It is this PAIRING that serves to edify others. That's why the Bible says that if one is speaking in tongues in the presence of others and there is no interpreter, then that one should keep silent.

Verse 26: How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Verse 27: If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

Verse 28: But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

The main focus of 1 Corinthians 14 is others. The Scripture here is dealing overall with the purpose of speaking in tongues being for edification of others/ministry/prophecy. Specifically, it deals with what the purposes served for believers and for unbelievers. These tongues are clearly discernible languages...

22 - Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

23 - If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

24 - But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

25 -And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. [/b]

9 - So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

10 - There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

11 - Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

12 - Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

 

[divya]

Thanks for your answer.
I have read the scriptures you quoted in your second post in this thread and read the link you gave me
After all the reading, my understanding is that in the end all the gifts of the Spirit are vital.

Still don't see the difference between Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians 12-14. I read and re-read the scriptures you gave (Acts 2:38 and 1 Corinthians 12:4-11) and neither enlightens as to that difference I have a headache trying to figure it out loool.
Acts 2:38 says that one who repents and is baptized receives God's gift of the Holy Spirit
1 Corinthians 12:4-7 tells me different gifts are given to different people but all by the work of God's Holy Spirit

Unless I'm not understanding these 2 scriptures right, I still do not get how the occurence in Acts 2 is different from what is spoken of 1 Corinthians

And RR I'm not being difficult or trying to be argumentative as I said, loool I'm seriously not understanding how to get the response to my questions to the scriptures you gave or from the link you gave (which to me just basically explain the what, why and how of spiritual gifts and doesn't contrast Acts 2 to 1 Corinthians). Sorry also if you feel like you've been repeating yourself

ETD: I deleted the first sentence because I realized after reading that I understand how edifying ourselves relates to strengthening ourselves and bearing fruits

Exactly!


1 Corinthians 12:4 - 13

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[PaperClip]

The main focus of 1 Corinthians 14 is others. The Scripture here is dealing overall with the purpose of speaking in tongues being for edification of others/ministry/prophecy. Specifically, it deals with what the purposes served for believers and for unbelievers. These tongues are clearly discernible languages...

I concur with your point that 1 Corinthians 14 focuses on the edification of others. This point does not negate 1 Corinthians 14:4: "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself...."

Also, Paul said in verse 18 of the same chapter: "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all". So he spoke in tongues more than anyone else. There were times when he was ALONE and he was STILL speaking in tongues... he was EDIFYING HIMSELF.

Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Mark 16:17: And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.

Jude 20: But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people

 

[divya]

I concur with your point that 1 Corinthians 14 focuses on the edification of others. This point does not negate 1 Corinthians 14:4: "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself...."

Also, Paul said in verse 18 of the same chapter: "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all". So he spoke in tongues more than anyone else. There were times when he was ALONE and he was STILL speaking in tongues... he was EDIFYING HIMSELF.

Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Mark 16:17: And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.

Jude 20: But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people

All of these verses that are pulled out have specific meanings within the chapters they are in, and are not necessarily related to the topic at hand simply because of the mention of the Holy Spirit.

I have to turn in, but I will discuss those verses tomorrow...

 

[Farida]

You know, this is the speaking of tongues that I know of:
where one person speaks one language, but several people, who speak several distinct language, all hear the one language as sounding like their own. So the Mandarin, Spanish and Slavic language-speakers would all hear and understand at the same time.
Acts 2:6 (New International Version)


When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.


The other mentions I recall (1 corinthians) are said to be translated as also "in other languages." So I do not believe the context is the same.

 

[Mocha5]

All of these verses that are pulled out have specific meanings within the chapters they are in, and are not necessarily related to the topic at hand simply because of the mention of the Holy Spirit.

I have to turn in, but I will discuss those verses tomorrow...

They all speak to tongues being used to edify oneself. There is a tongue to edify others and there is a tongue that you use in prayer to edify and strengthen yourself which I call a heavenly language. A language where your spirit is speaking to God. Spirit knows spirit. Remember the spirit is what's born again. The spirit is pure. That's why we are called to be led by the spirit.

While praying in tongues, the only thing that is active is your spirit. All those who are born again have the capability of using this prayer language. RR quoted Romans 8:26. I'll translate it in NLT:

And the Holy Spirit helps us in our distress. For we don't even know what we should pray. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God's own will. And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose for them. Romans 8: 26-28

 

[divya]

You know, this is the speaking of tongues that I know of:
where one person speaks one language, but several people, who speak several distinct language, all hear the one language as sounding like their own. So the Mandarin, Spanish and Slavic language-speakers would all hear and understand at the same time.
Acts 2:6 (New International Version)


When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.


The other mentions I recall (1 corinthians) are said to be translated as also "in other languages." So I do not believe the context is the same.

Amen! Thank you!

 

[divya]

They all speak to tongues being used to edify oneself. There is a tongue to edify others and there is a tongue that you use in prayer to edify and strengthen yourself which I call a heavenly language. A language where your spirit is speaking to God. Spirit knows spirit. Remember the spirit is what's born again. The spirit is pure. That's why we are called to be led by the spirit.

While praying in tongues, the only thing that is active is your spirit. All those who are born again have the capability of using this prayer language. RR quoted Romans 8:26. I'll translate it in NLT:

And the Holy Spirit helps us in our distress. For we don't even know what we should pray. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God's own will. And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose for them. Romans 8: 26-28

You make call it a heavenly language, but does the Bible?

The verse does not talk about there being an existing prayer language that is indiscernible and solely to edify self. We must look to the message of the chapter rather than selecting one verse to attempt to explain something else. The Bible must be understood in context.

Romans 8
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans 8&version=9;

I'm in class but I'll be back...

 

[Mocha5]

You make call it a heavenly language, but does the Bible?

No, the Bibe refers to it as groanings. Some people refer to it as tongues.

The verse does not talk about there being an existing prayer language that is indiscernible

This is exactly what I interpret this scripture to mean:

26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Groanings to me are indiscernable and the groanings are obviously taking place during prayer.

and solely to edify self.

I will agree that these times are not always used to edify yourself but they most certainly can be. I need to strenghten myself through Christ Jesus to strengthen others.

We must look to the message of the chapter rather than selecting one verse to attempt to explain something else. The Bible must be understood in context.

Agreed. The entire message of the chapter speaks to exacty what I said in my original post. We are to be led by the Spirit at all times. And being led by the Spirit in prayer is perfected prayer (Nope, that's not in the Bible either) much moreso than prayer done in the flesh.

Romans 8
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans 8&version=9;

I'm in class but I'll be back...

Thanks for the dialogue.

 

[Southernbella.]

Thanks for the dialogue.

I'm confused about Verse 26. It says that the Holy Spirit makes intercession with groanings that cannot be uttered. How does that translate to us praying in a "heavenly language"? If anything, it appears to me that the Holy Spirit is doing the praying on our behalf. Also, if the groanings cannot be uttered, that means that we can't actually be saying/uttering anything, right?

 

[Mocha5]

Oooh, good point, Lauren. The NLT translates it as groanings that cannot be expressed in words. The two definitions of utter are 1) to send forth in sound or 2) to express in words. Those who have actually had this experience would go with the second definition. Those who have not would probably go with the first definition. I think it is a matter of how the Holy Spirit has flowed through each of us personally.

 

[klb120475]

Oooh, good point, Lauren. The NLT translates it as groanings that cannot be expressed in words. The two definitions of utter are 1) to send forth in sound or 2) to express in words. Those who have actually had this experience would go with the second definition. Those who have not would probably go with the first definition. I think it is a matter of how the Holy Spirit has flowed through each of us personally.

Well said.

 

[Southernbella.]

Oooh, good point, Lauren. The NLT translates it as groanings that cannot be expressed in words. The two definitions of utter are 1) to send forth in sound or 2) to express in words. Those who have actually had this experience would go with the second definition. Those who have not would probably go with the first definition. I think it is a matter of how the Holy Spirit has flowed through each of us personally.

OK, that makes sense. I don't think you have to have experienced it to get that. I've felt the Spirit on me, but I couldn't begin to tell you what happened at the time. I know I didn't babble though.

So these are two different things then. Groanings done by the Holy Spirit on our behalf and speaking in tongues, I mean. Because the Bible is very clear about tongues being interpreted.

 

[Mocha5]

OK, that makes sense. I don't think you have to have experienced it to get that. I've felt the Spirit on me, but I couldn't begin to tell you what happened at the time. I know I didn't babble though.

I just meant that it would be easier to understand it if you have actually experienced it. If you have never felt the Holy Spirit in this way then it would be hard to relate. Although, since I've been born again I don't negate others' experiences. Before I was born again is another story though. But I've felt the Holy Spirit on me in many different ways. I guess He do how he do. I'm looking forward to new experiences.

So these are two different things then. Groanings done by the Holy Spirit on our behalf and speaking in tongues, I mean. Because the Bible is very clear about tongues being interpreted.

Yeah. Definitely different. I added my post because people also refer to the groanings as tongues.