• Forum Upgraded: https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/recent-forum-upgrade.849851/

"If you don't want to produce children..."

aribell

formerly nicola.kirwan
"you need to stay single. 'Cause marriage is a reward for doing my Kingdom work."

That is a quote from this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSBV2Osbz-0

The woman argues that God is hesitant to answer many requests for marriage because women/couples are not open to being blessed with as many children as the Lord may provide.

She takes it further to apply to different situations, like praying for children but only being open to a certain number, to praying for a spouse but only being willing to accept a certain kind of person.

She says: "Sometimes we are so selfish in our worship and in our prayers. We don't (shouldn't) pray to change God's mind, we pray to get God's mind. We pray to get lined up with His will. To get His mind and our mind so that we can pray according to His will...So a lot of the frustration of unanswered pray is that we're praying what we want instead of what He wants."

Her communication style is somewhat brash, and could be taken as insensitive, but I think the message was true overall, but also different.
 

MizAvalon

Well-Known Member
A few years back on TBN another lady was giving what was basically this same speech. She was less brash and in your face as this lady here but the message was exactly the same. If you are not willing to be fruitful and multiply(and not on YOUR terms but on GOD's), then don't even bother, was the message.

According to her, birth control is something that shouldn't even be thought about in a marriage. I think she was ok with NFP though.
 

aribell

formerly nicola.kirwan
A few years back on TBN another lady was giving what was basically this same speech. She was less brash and in your face as this lady here but the message was exactly the same. If you are not willing to be fruitful and multiply(and not on YOUR terms but on GOD's), then don't even bother, was the message.

According to her, birth control is something that shouldn't even be thought about in a marriage. I think she was ok with NFP though.

I'm very pro-NFP, but when she said "open to as many as God will provide," I kinda wondered what that meant. Like, does that mean be like the Duggars...pregnant with yet another baby because, well the woman is just that fertile?

Kind of makes me nervous, as women in my family tend to be very fertile. Do I have to be having babies from now until menopause? But maybe that's exactly the attitude she's talking about.
 

MissYocairis

Well-Known Member
I don't like it. Too many children are born into untoward circumstances. Just because you want to get married doesn't mean you will be a good parent and just because you want to be a parent doesn't mean you should have a dozen children. I don't believe God intends for each and every individual to have the exact same set of aptitudes. Where the Duggars may have the aptitude to be excellent parents of 19 children, there are some couples who may not possess that and I don't think that makes them any less faithful. Her premise seems too simplistic.

Are all people who aren't interested in parenting expected to remain single and celibate for the rest of their lives? Is this woman catholic? Seems to me they still honor Him through their union and quest to live according to His plan. Will He forsake them for using birth control?

It's viewpoints like these that pressure many people into deigning to fit into a culture that is counterintuitive to what God really wants for them personally. Then they end up living a life they didn't actually want and others suffer for it. I don't think God works that way.
 

Ladybelle

New Member
I think, (just my opinion) people who believe such as this need to seek out some true understanding and wisdom from Jesus, a.k.a the Holy Spirit who will reveal to us the truth about all things.

When God tells us to multiply the earth - he wasn't just talking about having babies. In multiplying the earth, he wants us to do several things some of which include:

1) protecting & nurturing the earth
2) spreading the word of God, help other nonbelievers becomes believers so that believers can dominate the earth
3) in many other areas, how many other ways can we multiply? In money, in wisdom, in love, in understanding, in prayer, in praise, in faith ..... the list goes on and on. You are blessed to be a blessing, not just to have a bunch of babies. Babies are actually a blessing to you FROM God, so to merely just have a bunch of babies could be considered selfish depending on how you look at it, God isn't blessed by you having babies.Having babies is an example of being blessed by God- He says "Children are an inheritance of the Lord, they are HIS reward." So in otherwords- God rewards us with children, not the other way around. There are some scriptures to support this "blessed is the man who's quivver is full of children."....


So, I said all that to say - to me, this video is a perfect example of how some people misinterpret scripture.

In addition to that, God wants to give us the desires of our hearts. If we don't want to have 20 kids- God is okay with that, hence him being a God of freewill. Now, if God speaks to you about having 20 kids- I do think there is a price to pay for not being willing to obey him.
 

leilasbest

New Member
^^^ I agree. There's nothing worse than being the parents of children that you cannot take care of (physically, emotionally, financially, etc.)
 

Prudent1

Well-Known Member
Kind of makes me nervous, as women in my family tend to be very fertile. Do I have to be having babies from now until menopause? But maybe that's exactly the attitude she's talking about.
I don't think that's necessarily God's will for you. Her point and the point of many others is that many ppl do not pray and ask God anything when it comes to having kids. In fact a lot married Christians do not pray about sex period. The majority of ppl forget that our bodies belong to God in every. I know I was not taught to apply scripture to childbearing. It never even occurred to me.:blush:

In addition to that, God wants to give us the desires of our hearts. If we don't want to have 20 kids- God is okay with that, hence him being a God of freewill. Now, if God speaks to you about having 20 kids- I do think there is a price to pay for not being willing to obey him.

Once again, the key is to seek God's will in this and all things. We must...

I don't believe God intends for each and every individual to have the exact same set of aptitudes.
Thanks for saying this. Definitely not. :nono:We cannot make a doctrine of this or anything. If God tells you to not drink soft drinks it is b/c he designed you and knows what your body can tolerate. You shouldn't then try to make sodas evil for everybody else. This doesn't make God inconsistent rather it exemplifies one of his many character traits 'all knowing'.

It's viewpoints like these that pressure many people into deigning to fit into a culture that is counterintuitive to what God really wants for them personally.
ITA :yep: By far and large we are anti-family/ kids here in America. Most ppl have bought into the mindset "A boy for me, a girl for you, now praise the Lord Halelujah we're through!" Once again no prayers were uttered to God about what His will was/is in this area. If you have more than 2 kids the average person will give you the old raised eyebrow (Oh, y'all didn't have nothing better to do huh?). You have the perfect 'little' family. The average mindset is 'get the kids grown and get them gone' so I can do what I want to do. Children require time, money, and committment. Very selfish. It's not about us. Children are not viewed as blessings but as inconveniences. At least that's how it is with a lot of ppl I know. :look: Children are tolerated. A by-product. Not carefully planned for but more like 'I gotta go tell ol boy my period is late'.:perplexed

I think, (just my opinion) people who believe such as this need to seek out some true understanding and wisdom from Jesus, a.k.a the Holy Spirit who will reveal to us the truth about all things.
Please and thank you! Ask God about all things- pray concerning all things including your reproductive life. What he tells me to do will likely be different than what he tells you to do but ask the Holy Spirit to show you the truth concerning all things.

Excellent posts ladies....:yep:Here are a few familiar scriptures that come to mind. Once again, I'm not saying you have to do what God has told me to do :nono:. Not saying you are going to the hot place w/ gasoline drawers on.:nono:Not saying be bare foot and pregnant and never have a career or a life outside of being 'mom-o-matic'.:nono: Just saying seek God about this too...if you dare.

Phil 4:6
6Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
[ie God, I don't want a mini van full of kids. I'm not sure I can handle that. Never-the-less, I thank you for your will being done in this and all areas of my life....]
Rom12:1
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.
[ie God, I don't want a mini van full of kids. I'm not sure I can handle that. Never-the-less, I present all of my body including my reproductive organs to you as a living sacrifice ....]
1 Cor 6:19-20
19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
[Are we really willing to submit and trust God like that?]

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man." (Ecc 12:13 AV)
It's not about us. :wallbash: It is about the Kingdom. "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done..."
 

Raspberry

New Member
"you need to stay single. 'Cause marriage is a reward for doing my Kingdom work."

I didn't watch the video but does she back up this statement? There is nowhere in the bible that indicates that marriage is a spiritual reward. If that were true, wouldn't be many folks alive on the planet right now lol. And if this is true only for Christians I still don't see that mentioned anywhere in the New Testament.

She says: "Sometimes we are so selfish in our worship and in our prayers. We don't (shouldn't) pray to change God's mind, we pray to get God's mind. We pray to get lined up with His will. To get His mind and our mind so that we can pray according to His will...So a lot of the frustration of unanswered pray is that we're praying what we want instead of what He wants."

I agree with this wholeheartedly :yep: - yea lot of us have different desires for our lives but if we pray to have our hearts aligned with God's will we can't go wrong. That will look different for everybody - that's the issue I have when Christian cultural norms try to supersede God's divine plan for the individual.

I've heard testimonies of people who didn't want to have children but allowed God to change their heart on that. I've also heard testimonies of people who wanted to have a ton of kids but were infertile - and had to get their hearts right with a different plan God had for them.
 

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I

New Member
The RCC will say that you should welcome children and not inhibit them (of course, in a well-thought out and religiously valid marriage). But there are many children with downs syndrome born to mothers in their late 40's to 50's. They children are very loved. In the Coptic Church, birth control is allowed and having children should be well-thought out according to a family's financial abilities. There's a disconnect here. Getting married and having too many children that are a burden to the family but ensuring the family is religiously pure and observant....and allowing artificial means to control family size for the overall health of the family already existing but not following the "be fruitful and multiply" without ceasing....

I think that G-d is compassionate. He also inbued us with intellect. But there are commands and rules. That's where we interpret what He meant...and I don't think we are there yet.

I also think that women who wish to marry for companionship are only following their humanity, whether they want umpteen children or not. That's my humble opinion, which may be incorrect. I also believe that G-d allows certain divorce cases because He is compassionate. I have to remember the "rules" that Jesus Himself broke.
 

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I

New Member
I think, (just my opinion) people who believe such as this need to seek out some true understanding and wisdom from Jesus, a.k.a the Holy Spirit who will reveal to us the truth about all things.

When God tells us to multiply the earth - he wasn't just talking about having babies. In multiplying the earth, he wants us to do several things some of which include:

1) protecting & nurturing the earth
2) spreading the word of God, help other nonbelievers becomes believers so that believers can dominate the earth
3) in many other areas, how many other ways can we multiply? In money, in wisdom, in love, in understanding, in prayer, in praise, in faith ..... the list goes on and on. You are blessed to be a blessing, not just to have a bunch of babies. Bl of children."....

"Pru urvu" in Genesis 1:28 was definitely the first command or mitzvah, to procreate and fill the earth with new humans. There are 3 aspects such as procreation, enjoyment (spouses) and holiness. Having sex in a married relationship can bring holiness.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Relationships/Spouses_and_Partners/Love_and_Sex.shtml

It's my personal opinion that when we see being fruitful and multiplying as merely procreational, that's a puritanistic interpretation. I don't agree with it either.
 

aribell

formerly nicola.kirwan
I didn't watch the video but does she back up this statement? There is nowhere in the bible that indicates that marriage is a spiritual reward. If that were true, wouldn't be many folks alive on the planet right now lol. And if this is true only for Christians I still don't see that mentioned anywhere in the New Testament.

When she said the part about children, she said that it was according to Malachi, that children are a reward for one's labor. Though that verse may be correct (I didn't look it up to check), that's clearly different than saying that children only come if you're going to have a lot of them.

I'm also reminded of the verse from Psalm 125 that says that "children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward; blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them!" Other writers, not necessarily this lady, have talked about how many Christians view having children, or multiple children, as a nuisance, and inconvenience, etc. and that that attitude is actually not in accordance with the way God thinks about things.

While I don't actually believe that Christians have to have as many children as is physically possible, I do think that she's onto something in saying that if we're praying for something, then we need to be open to whatever the Lord wants to do with it, not just open to the Lord blessing whatever we've already told Him our agenda is, including how many children we are going to have. But no one but the couple can discern what the Lord is telling them about how many children they are going to have.

The video clip starts off talking about children, but she talks about how that attitude manifests itself in all sorts of different areas as well.
 

inthepink

New Member
This is an interesting topic. I was recently reading the September issue of In Touch Magazine (Charles Stanley) and there's an article about women who find out they are pregnant when they had considered themselves "done" with having children. It mostly talked about the emotions and unhappiness that they dealt with but how eventually they accept it as God's will and of course, love their child. One woman became pregnant a month after her husband's vasectomy. I guess God will have his will. :)
 

Aviah

Active Member
ITA with possibly not being able to care for so many children. Its horrible to have any potential resentment towards your children or cause them any "damage" because, you cannot provide for so many. One child needs enough attention and care, imagine how neglected each feels as a result of having to share the attention of two parents?
IMHO- Getting the word out to the people outside the body of Christ/Strengthening the body of Christ are more important than having a gazillion kids which will inhabit your ability to do so as well as if you had fewer. Maybe I'm wrong, but its just my two cents...
 

MizzBrown

Well-Known Member
Kind of makes me nervous, as women in my family tend to be very fertile. Do I have to be having babies from now until menopause? But maybe that's exactly the attitude she's talking about.
I don't think that's necessarily God's will for you. Her point and the point of many others is that many ppl do not pray and ask God anything when it comes to having kids. In fact a lot married Christians do not pray about sex period. The majority of ppl forget that our bodies belong to God in every. I know I was not taught to apply scripture to childbearing. It never even occurred to me.:blush:

:yep::yep::yep:
 

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I

New Member
I Is this woman catholic? Seems to me they still honor Him through their union and quest to live according to His plan. Will He forsake them for using birth control?

.

It's like eating pork and breaking a major law. You'll go downwards for that in some circles..and in some others, using birth control is mortal sin. It is what it is.
 

GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I

New Member
IMHO- Getting the word out to the people outside the body of Christ/Strengthening the body of Christ are more important than having a gazillion kids which will inhabit your ability to do so as well as if you had fewer. Maybe I'm wrong, but its just my two cents...

But having a holy family which exhibits the traits of Christ is their evangelization. Shouting from the rooftops is ineffective if the family is neglected. Marriage and family is a vocation. I know what you're saying and I agree in part.
 
Last edited:

Laela

Sidestepping the "lynch mob"
:goodpost:

Kind of makes me nervous, as women in my family tend to be very fertile. Do I have to be having babies from now until menopause? But maybe that's exactly the attitude she's talking about.
I don't think that's necessarily God's will for you. Her point and the point of many others is that many ppl do not pray and ask God anything when it comes to having kids. In fact a lot married Christians do not pray about sex period. The majority of ppl forget that our bodies belong to God in every. I know I was not taught to apply scripture to childbearing. It never even occurred to me.:blush:

In addition to that, God wants to give us the desires of our hearts. If we don't want to have 20 kids- God is okay with that, hence him being a God of freewill. Now, if God speaks to you about having 20 kids- I do think there is a price to pay for not being willing to obey him.

Once again, the key is to seek God's will in this and all things. We must...

I don't believe God intends for each and every individual to have the exact same set of aptitudes.
Thanks for saying this. Definitely not. :nono:We cannot make a doctrine of this or anything. If God tells you to not drink soft drinks it is b/c he designed you and knows what your body can tolerate. You shouldn't then try to make sodas evil for everybody else. This doesn't make God inconsistent rather it exemplifies one of his many character traits 'all knowing'.

It's viewpoints like these that pressure many people into deigning to fit into a culture that is counterintuitive to what God really wants for them personally.
ITA :yep: By far and large we are anti-family/ kids here in America. Most ppl have bought into the mindset "A boy for me, a girl for you, now praise the Lord Halelujah we're through!" Once again no prayers were uttered to God about what His will was/is in this area. If you have more than 2 kids the average person will give you the old raised eyebrow (Oh, y'all didn't have nothing better to do huh?). You have the perfect 'little' family. The average mindset is 'get the kids grown and get them gone' so I can do what I want to do. Children require time, money, and committment. Very selfish. It's not about us. Children are not viewed as blessings but as inconveniences. At least that's how it is with a lot of ppl I know. :look: Children are tolerated. A by-product. Not carefully planned for but more like 'I gotta go tell ol boy my period is late'.:perplexed

I think, (just my opinion) people who believe such as this need to seek out some true understanding and wisdom from Jesus, a.k.a the Holy Spirit who will reveal to us the truth about all things.
Please and thank you! Ask God about all things- pray concerning all things including your reproductive life. What he tells me to do will likely be different than what he tells you to do but ask the Holy Spirit to show you the truth concerning all things.

Excellent posts ladies....:yep:Here are a few familiar scriptures that come to mind. Once again, I'm not saying you have to do what God has told me to do :nono:. Not saying you are going to the hot place w/ gasoline drawers on.:nono:Not saying be bare foot and pregnant and never have a career or a life outside of being 'mom-o-matic'.:nono: Just saying seek God about this too...if you dare.

Phil 4:6
6Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
[ie God, I don't want a mini van full of kids. I'm not sure I can handle that. Never-the-less, I thank you for your will being done in this and all areas of my life....]
Rom12:1
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.
[ie God, I don't want a mini van full of kids. I'm not sure I can handle that. Never-the-less, I present all of my body including my reproductive organs to you as a living sacrifice ....]
1 Cor 6:19-20
19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
[Are we really willing to submit and trust God like that?]

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man." (Ecc 12:13 AV)
It's not about us. :wallbash: It is about the Kingdom. "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done..."
 

joy2day

Well-Known Member
I didn't watch the video, but when I read through the posts my initial reaction was that this lady has a legalistic "Pharisee" type spirit on her, and sadly, this message has the potential to inflict religious bondage on people.

Why should people be put in bondage because they want to marry and not have children? Last time I checked, their are orphanages and state run foster care systems OVERFLOWING with little ones that have been tossed aside, and some of these precious children may never find a loving home!:nono:

Nope, that ok. She can keep this.
 

Mamita

Back to basics
well there's natural birth control

AND a natural birth control thread in the natural living

He gave us all the tools to lead a peaceful life in Him *wink*
 
Top