Is The Church The New Israel

[cheetarah1980]

Through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, God clearly set apart Israel as His sacred treasure or chosen people. The Hebraic scriptures give us the history of Israel and their relationship with the one true God. Basically they rebel, God finally has enough and punishes them, they come back to Him, repeat the cycle (I know, it's the cliffs notes version).

I was talking to a friend today. He asked me to read Ezekiel 34 and made the comment that it looked as though the prophesy was saying that Israel would be destroyed. He said that the flock discussed in this passage is actually Christians and Israel is the bad shephard because they rejected Christ. I happened to disagree. I saw the passage as talking about how Israel was scattered around the world after the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. and how eventually God would bring Israel back to the land with a new shephard (i.e. Messiah).

His points made me think about God's chosen people. There is a school of thought that with Christ, Christians became God's new chosen people instead of Israel. If you believe this, is there any scripture that verifies this? Thus far I cannot find any. I would like to think that my friend had some scriptural basis for this view but he couldn't immediately give me any.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

Through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, God clearly set apart Israel as His sacred treasure or chosen people. The Hebraic scriptures give us the history of Israel and their relationship with the one true God. Basically they rebel, God finally has enough and punishes them, they come back to Him, repeat the cycle (I know, it's the cliffs notes version).

I was talking to a friend today. He asked me to read Ezekiel 34 and made the comment that it looked as though the prophesy was saying that Israel would be destroyed. He said that the flock discussed in this passage is actually Christians and Israel is the bad shephard because they rejected Christ. I happened to disagree. I saw the passage as talking about how Israel was scattered around the world after the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. and how eventually God would bring Israel back to the land with a new shephard (i.e. Messiah).

His points made me think about God's chosen people. There is a school of thought that with Christ, Christians became God's new chosen people instead of Israel. If you believe this, is there any scripture that verifies this? Thus far I cannot find any. I would like to think that my friend had some scriptural basis for this view but he couldn't immediately give me any.

This is not true, sis. This is why we must prayerfully read the scriptures and not just read it to be reading it.

What does Ezekiel 37 say? That “the valley of dry bones” is Israel and that there’s going to come salvation to Israel and there’s going to come the application of the new covenant to Israel; and God’s going to give them his Spirit, God’s going to make a covenant of peace, He’s going to take away the stony heart, plant a heart of flesh; etc. etc. etc.

The apostle Paul comes along in Romans and says Israel’s going to be saved, because the gifts and callings of God are not subject to repentance. Is there a future for Israel? That’s exactly what the Old Testament promises. My view of Israel’s future has nothing to do with the New Testament, although I think it’s reinforced in New Testament, clearly.

I'm sure others would add to this.

Blessings.

 

[cheetarah1980]

This is not true, sis. This is why we must prayerfully read the scriptures and not just read it to be reading it.

What does Ezekiel 37 say? That “the valley of dry bones” is Israel and that there’s going to come salvation to Israel and there’s going to come the application of the new covenant to Israel; and God’s going to give them his Spirit, God’s going to make a covenant of peace, He’s going to take away the stony heart, plant a heart of flesh; etc. etc. etc.

The apostle Paul comes along in Romans and says Israel’s going to be saved, because the gifts and callings of God are not subject to repentance. Is there a future for Israel? That’s exactly what the Old Testament promises. My view of Israel’s future has nothing to do with the New Testament, although I think it’s reinforced in New Testament, clearly.

I'm sure others would add to this.

Blessings.

Oh trust, I know it's not true. But there are those who do believe it to be true. I wanted to see if they got this idea from scripture that had been misinterpreted. I'm very much interested in points of scripture that people see as meaning something they completely don't. It's amazing to me how twisted God's word has become (by man of course).

And Ezekiel 34 is clearly talking about the priests of Israel, not Israel as a whole. Seemed to me like it was talking about the scattering and eventual regathering of Israel to the land.

 

[dicapr]

I think what your friend is getting at is that Isreal as a nation is no longer exclusively God's chosen people. The Old Testement demonstrates that Isreal had an exaulted position of favoritism with God. After Jesus was sent, that position changed and Isreal became more "spiritual" than physical. Paul, throughout his writings, spoke of how through the belief in Jesus as the Christ Jews and Gentiles were now one in God's eyes. Therfore they are not exclusively God's chosen people, because we are united in God's eyes-Roman 10-12.

 

[cheetarah1980]

I think what your friend is getting at is that Isreal as a nation is no longer exclusively God's chosen people. The Old Testement demonstrates that Isreal had an exaulted position of favoritism with God. After Jesus was sent, that position changed and Isreal became more "spiritual" than physical. Paul, throughout his writings, spoke of how through the belief in Jesus as the Christ Jews and Gentiles were now one in God's eyes. Therfore they are not exclusively God's chosen people, because we are united in God's eyes-Roman 10-12.

I wouldn't say Israel's position changed, but that through Christ Gentiles could become ingrafted into Israel. Regardless of whether physical Israel accepts Jesus as Messiah or not, they are still God's chosen people. They are still the heirs to God's covenant with Abraham. We are heirs to that same covenant too, but through adoption instead of by birth.

 

[SEMO]

The church has been "grafted" into the group known as God's people; not a replacement of the original (see Romans 11, whole chapter).

 

[Nefertiti0906]

I think what your friend is getting at is that Isreal as a nation is no longer exclusively God's chosen people. The Old Testement demonstrates that Isreal had an exaulted position of favoritism with God. After Jesus was sent, that position changed and Isreal became more "spiritual" than physical. Paul, throughout his writings, spoke of how through the belief in Jesus as the Christ Jews and Gentiles were now one in God's eyes. Therfore they are not exclusively God's chosen people, because we are united in God's eyes-Roman 10-12.

I agree with this.

 

[intellect_sensual]

I wouldn't say Israel's position changed, but that through Christ Gentiles could become ingrafted into Israel. Regardless of whether physical Israel accepts Jesus as Messiah or not, they are still God's chosen people. They are still the heirs to God's covenant with Abraham. We are heirs to that same covenant too, but through adoption instead of by birth.

You are exactly right. The bible made it clear that Israwl was his chosen, and even though he poured his wrath upon them, that they could always be restored if they were to just follow his Word and Commandments. We can becoma apart of the chosen people if we chose Believe and also if we repentr and follow his examples as well. This has also started a few arguments, where different people are trying to claim that they are apart of the lost tribes of Israel, which includes blacks, American Indians, Asians etc... But in the end I really don't think it matters whether you are apart of the lost tribe or not, as long as you believe in His word and follow his commandments, you will be rewarded, but even if you are a true descendant from these tribes and you don't believe in God/Jesus or don't follow hisa commandments you are out of luck.

Also I must add, that the 12 disciples were to preach the word to the lost tribes of Israel Read Matthew 10 vs 5&6. If God was done with Israel I don't see why he would send His son to do all this. In the end only one of the disciples was sent to the Gentiles (can't remember which one right now).

 

[dicapr]

The Jewish nation that the Gentiles were grafted only included those who accepted Jesus as the Messiah. They were then given the name Christians. The first chritians were all Jewish. That is who Jesus came to preach to and to show the light to. Many believed and their are still people who are ethnic Jews who believe that Jesus is the Christ. Paul clearly states that in this new Isreal that God makes no distinction between Jew and Greek. You cannot reject God's son and still be considered his chosen people. If that is true, God would have two sets of rules. Christians would have to accept Jesus and follow his teachings and Jews would not have to accept Jesus and just follow Mosaic teachings. We would not then be equal before God as the preachings of Paul discribe.

 

[cheetarah1980]

The Jewish nation that the Gentiles were grafted only included those who accepted Jesus as the Messiah. They were then given the name Christians. The first chritians were all Jewish. That is who Jesus came to preach to and to show the light to. Many believed and their are still people who are ethnic Jews who believe that Jesus is the Christ. Paul clearly states that in this new Isreal that God makes no distinction between Jew and Greek. You cannot reject God's son and still be considered his chosen people. If that is true, God would have two sets of rules. Christians would have to accept Jesus and follow his teachings and Jews would not have to accept Jesus and just follow Mosaic teachings. We would not then be equal before God as the preachings of Paul discribe.

Paul doesn't teach this. It's said that when Messiah returns the Jews will have another chance to accept him. And Jesus' teachings in no way contradict Mosaic law. The point was to graft Gentiles into Israel under the same covenant (I will be your God, you will be my people if you follow my commands). That covenant includes the same laws and promises given to the Israelites on Mt. Moriah. The only thing is that for centuries Christians have been told we don't have to follow those teachings.

 

[dicapr]

Paul doesn't teach this. It's said that when Messiah returns the Jews will have another chance to accept him. And Jesus' teachings in no way contradict Mosaic law. The point was to graft Gentiles into Israel under the same covenant (I will be your God, you will be my people if you follow my commands). That covenant includes the same laws and promises given to the Israelites on Mt. Moriah. The only thing is that for centuries Christians have been told we don't have to follow those teachings.

Could your provide scriptures for that? It have not found it in the bible where Christ comes again and the nation of Isreal another chance. Christ did come to give the Jewish nation another chance. Those who accepted this second chance became the first christian church. Those who refused to believe Christ lost out on their second chance. We tend to forget that for along time christianity was a denomination of Judism. That is why Paul spent so much time affirming gentiles as equal partners with Jews. It was because Gentiles where converting to a Jewish religion.

 

[cheetarah1980]

Could your provide scriptures for that? It have not found it in the bible where Christ comes again and the nation of Isreal another chance. Christ did come to give the Jewish nation another chance. Those who accepted this second chance became the first christian church. Those who refused to believe Christ lost out on their second chance. We tend to forget that for along time christianity was a denomination of Judism. That is why Paul spent so much time affirming gentiles as equal partners with Jews. It was because Gentiles where converting to a Jewish religion.

Romans 11:25-32 Verse 26 states: And so all Israel will be saved..." Also Ezekiel 34 is an end times and Messianic prophecy about Messiah residing in the land with Israel.
And you are so right, Gentiles who accept Christ are basically converting to the Jewish faith...however Christianity hasn't looked much like the Jewish faith since the 1st or 2nd century.

 

[intellect_sensual]

Romans 11:25-32 Verse 26 states: And so all Israel will be saved..." Also Ezekiel 34 is an end times and Messianic prophecy about Messiah residing in the land with Israel.
And you are so right, Gentiles who accept Christ are basically converting to the Jewish faith...however Christianity hasn't looked much like the Jewish faith since the 1st or 2nd century.

I kind of agree with everything you have said except for the bolded. He is not going to come back to give them a second chance. The Word has made it clear that the next times he comes, will be Judgement (and we all know what happens then). Ezekiel I think is refering to after, HIs coming back, and the earth is cleansed, we (all who make it), will live in Israel with Him, not that he is coming again and doing this, to give Israel another chance.

Like I have said before when Jesus came he came for the Lost Israel, and He made it clear to His followers to not follow the words of the Pharissees (sp) or teachings of the Rabbi's. He made it clear that all we needed was to follow the word of the God. Perfect example was when He was asked why his disciples didn't wash their hands before they ate (which is something that is a Rabbi teaching), and he made it clear to them that it is what comes out of your mouth, not what goes in your body that defiles you. Jesus went against a few of the Jews and their Rabbi's teaching while he was on this earth.

 

[dicapr]

God dwelling with Isreal when he comes again speaks of "spiritual" Isreal. It is the Isreal that Paul speaks of where there is neither Jew or Greek. The only Isreal that exsists now is spiritual. Ethnic Jews who accept Jesus as Christ are apart of spiritual Isreal, but the ethnic group no longer has the title and privledge of God's chosen people.

 

[cheetarah1980]

I kind of agree with everything you have said except for the bolded. He is not going to come back to give them a second chance. The Word has made it clear that the next times he comes, will be Judgement (and we all know what happens then). Ezekiel I think is refering to after, HIs coming back, and the earth is cleansed, we (all who make it), will live in Israel with Him, not that he is coming again and doing this, to give Israel another chance.

Like I have said before when Jesus came he came for the Lost Israel, and He made it clear to His followers to not follow the words of the Pharissees (sp) or teachings of the Rabbi's. He made it clear that all we needed was to follow the word of the God. Perfect example was when He was asked why his disciples didn't wash their hands before they ate (which is something that is a Rabbi teaching), and he made it clear to them that it is what comes out of your mouth, not what goes in your body that defiles you. Jesus went against a few of the Jews and their Rabbi's teaching while he was on this earth.

Ezekiel 34 was prophesied to Israel about themselves. The shephards were the religious leadership of the time and the flock was the people of Israel. Remember for centuries Israel WAS scattered. The nation-state of Israel came into existence in 1948 in the land that God promised Abraham. Since then a mass exodus of Jews have been gathered back to the land. This is the fulfillment of the events that would happen before Messiah returns. The OT is very clear that Israel (ethnic) will be saved. And Paul reinforces that in Romans 11. He says, "I ask then, has God rejected his people, the Jews? Of COURE NOT!!...God has not rejected his own people, whom he chose from the very beginning.....Did God's people stumble an fall beyond recoery? Of course not! his purpose was to make salvation available to the Gentiles, and then the Jews would be jealous and want it for themselves. Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the Jews turned down God's offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when the Jews finally accept it."

The ethnic group is a critical piece to God's plan as outline in both the Hebraic and Apostolic scriptures, but it makes me wonder why so many Christians have cut them out of the picture. In fact if we agree that we were grafted into Israel how come the Christian faith looks so vastly different from that which the descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob followed? Just something I've been thinking of lately.

 

[dicapr]

I don't think that ethnic Jews are ruled out of God's plan. Many are sincere and seeking God's will and only God can decide who will be accepted by him. I think the part that alot of christians are rejecting is the belief that simply becuase you are born an ethnic Jew you have an automatic in. That is not biblical. Moses told them they would have to choose who they would serve. The same is true now. Those who choose to serve the Lord as their ancestors did will be saved. However, they cannot go around their life ignoring the things of God and his spirit and think they have an automatic "IN" because Abraham is their father. Jesus during his teachings told them that having Abraham as their father was not enough. The same principle is being applied here.

 

[cheetarah1980]

I don't think that ethnic Jews are ruled out of God's plan. Many are sincere and seeking God's will and only God can decide who will be accepted by him. I think the part that alot of christians are rejecting is the belief that simply becuase you are born an ethnic Jew you have an automatic in. That is not biblical. Moses told them they would have to choose who they would serve. The same is true now. Those who choose to serve the Lord as their ancestors did will be saved. However, they cannot go around their life ignoring the things of God and his spirit and think they have an automatic "IN" because Abraham is their father. Jesus during his teachings told them that having Abraham as their father was not enough. The same principle is being applied here.

Oh, okay! I get what you're saying now. And yes, I totally agree. Being an ethnic descendent of Abraham isn't enough if they aren't following the God of Abraham.

 

[Mahalialee4]

I kind of agree with everything you have said except for the bolded. He is not going to come back to give them a second chance. The Word has made it clear that the next times he comes, will be Judgement (and we all know what happens then). Ezekiel I think is refering to after, HIs coming back, and the earth is cleansed, we (all who make it), will live in Israel with Him, not that he is coming again and doing this, to give Israel another chance.

((((Like I have said before when Jesus came he came for the Lost Israel, and He made it clear to His followers to not follow the words of the Pharissees (sp) or teachings of the Rabbi's.))) He made it clear that all we needed was to follow the word of the God. Perfect example was when He was asked why his disciples didn't wash their hands before they ate (which is something that is a Rabbi teaching), and he made it clear to them that it is what comes out of your mouth, not what goes in your body that defiles you. Jesus went against a few of the Jews and their Rabbi's teaching while he was on this earth.

(((Because He said they made the Word of God "INVALID" due to their traditions, and they worshipped their traditions instead of God and were practicing a form of idolatry. Matthew 15:3-9: 21:42-45>> (where He told the Pharisees that the Kingdom of God would be taken from them and given to a people who will produce its fruit) and chapter : 23

 

[Mahalialee4]

Ezekiel 34 was prophesied to Israel about themselves. The shephards were the religious leadership of the time and the flock was the people of Israel. Remember for centuries Israel WAS scattered. The nation-state of Israel came into existence in 1948 in the land that God promised Abraham. Since then a mass exodus of Jews have been gathered back to the land. This is the fulfillment of the events that would happen before Messiah returns. The OT is very clear that Israel (ethnic) will be saved. And Paul reinforces that in Romans 11. He says, "I ask then, has God rejected his people, the Jews? Of COURE NOT!!...God has not rejected his own people, whom he chose from the very beginning.....Did God's people stumble an fall beyond recoery? Of course not! his purpose was to make salvation available to the Gentiles, and then the Jews would be jealous and want it for themselves. Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the Jews turned down God's offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when the Jews finally accept it."

The ethnic group is a critical piece to God's plan as outline in both the Hebraic and Apostolic scriptures, but it makes me wonder why so many Christians have cut them out of the picture. ((( In fact if we agree that we were grafted into Israel how come the Christian faith looks so vastly different from that which the descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob followed? Just something I've been thinking of lately?

??)))

Maybe because like the Bible says "Faith without works is dead." It is interesting how Hebrews 11: 1 says that "this is what the ancients were commended for" and then goes on thru to verse 39 and tells us what their faith DID. And what kind of faith they had in God. Is it possible that the Christian faith is lacking and that professing Christians have "become hearers of the Word only?" Those mentioned in Hebrews not only heard but they really believed God and MOVED on that faith in God without expecting "ch ching!!!!to be the reward unlike "seed sowing" faith promoted today.
Hebrews 11:13 states that "all these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance.14-16. God has not changed. we have.