Jouelzy - So Over the Natural Hair Community & Texture Discrimination 4c

naturalmanenyc

Well-Known Member
So Over the Natural Hair Community & Texture Discrimination

http://youtu.be/fggV0oVNhm8

We Aren't All Curly, Girl
IS THE NATURAL HAIR MOVEMENT DISMISSING KINKS IN FAVOR OF CURLS?


Walk down the aisles of any beauty supply store, scroll through the Twitter and Instagram feed, the Facebook pages and blogs dedicated to natural hair and it won’t take long to notice a particular schism among this "community" that claims to celebrate Black hair. It seems that a certain natural texture gets a lot more love than others.

In the 1970’s, the Afro reigned supreme. You could see ads, TV shows and movies showcasing the lustrous kink of highly textured hair. Somewhere in the late ‘80s, naturals became taboo, giving way to relaxers and drippy texturizers. Alas, the new millennium brought back our passion for natural hair with a roar---and a lot more curl.So, what happened to all that kink?

This current advent of Black women embracing their natural hair----and companies quick to pounce on the marketing value of this trend----has been accompanied by messaging that suggests that healthy natural hair equates to thick, shiny curls. Many women are empowered to go natural seeing the myriad of products that promise the perfectly defined twist out; the leave-in that gives your hair so much shine it has it’s own aura; and that through the powers of olive, coconut and grapeseed oil, their curls will be whipping in the wind with the perfect bounce. It’s a false reality that leads many into quick frustrations wondering why their hair won’t curl like all those girls on Instagram.

The notion of “all curl everything” is so widely propagated throughout this natural hair movement---often leaves out our kinkier, and dare-I-say more common hair textures.

There’s a meme floating around that perfectly illustrates this phenomenon: “Tell people hair is natural still gets asked...but how do you make it curly?” How many natural sisters are attempting to get a look that is as foreign to their scalp as bone straight hair? And what does our fixation with curls say about us as a people?

When I was a sophomore in college, I went through some of this myself. I had shaved my head (for the second time) because my golden blonde highlights had ripped my hair of any texture. And for all my time spent on the natural hair forums of the early 2000s, I couldn’t seem to get my edges to slick back, my ‘baby hair’ to slick down or my hair to naturally form into curls after co-washing. So I went up to my classmate Abby, who always had the perfect crop of small curls, her puff glided into slight waves when she gelled it up- and asked her “How do you get your hair to curl like that?” My exact words. She laughed, as did the other girls who were standing around, and dismissed me with a quick, “It’s my hair, from my scalp.” She wasn’t being mean and though I felt a bit stupid for being so clueless, I didn’t take offense, but I did go get a weave to forget about the frustrations I was experiencing because I really thought that healthy hair equaled curly hair. I know my experience is not uncommon. Many of us simply lack of awareness in the diversity of natural hair textures.

Some years later, I went on to start a YouTube channel to review weave in hopes of getting free hair. The free hair didn’t come fast enough and financial constraints forced me to deal with my real hair. By this time, it was 2009 and there was a lot more educational info about natural hair on the internet to help me through my journey. However, curly hair was still being pushed as the model of healthy natural hair, to the point of some natural hair product lines offering chemical treatments to loosen your curl pattern into a "wash & go" texture. My landlord saw my real hair and immediately urged me to look into one of these treatments, because that’s what she had been doing for the past two years and she felt it was the only way for her to maintain her natural hair. Something about putting a chemical in my hair to loosen the curl just sounded too much like a texturizer, and I had already had a very bad experience with that.

It was at this time that "hair typing" became a buzzing topic and when KimmayTube did a video breaking down the hair typing system, I had a major "Ah ha" moment. No one had ever said to me that it was okay for my hair to be seen tightly coiled without a curl in sight. Every time I sat down in a salon chair, there were countless remarks about how nappy and coarse my hair was and about how much work it was going to take to make it look presentable. But here was this hair typing system that said my hair was right around the 4B/4C area and that I needed to be using the proper styling tools and products to keep my beautiful, Black, natural hair looking good. I could achieve curled styles, but not curly hair...and that's fine.

When I eventually doing YouTube tutorials on 4C natural hair, I didn’t feel like part of the natural hair community because I rarely saw anything close to representation of my hair texture. Tides have definitely turned as my audience has grown, and others have cultivated loyal followings by celebrating kinkier hair textures. But even as the blogs push out more content that celebrates coils and kinks, you can still scroll go on Instagram and see curly hair largely being represented as the cremé de la cremé of the natural hair movement. My puff without the baby hairs or a French braid sans silky texture doesn't garner the same excitement as many of those images of bouncing curls that are touted as natural hair inspiration. There’s a host of women with textures similar to mine that opt to be ‘natural under their weave’ because mainstream aesthetics still don't include us. Women are still walking the beauty aisles of their local drug stores and picking up the newest gel or curling custard, hoping for the perfect spiral to bounce from their scalp, and still asking others "How did you get your hair to curl like that," without knowing that it isn't something they can or should aspire to achieve.

As natural becomes the norm, let us celebrate the kinks and the curls alike as beautiful and kill this unhealthy hair hierarchy.

Jouelzy is a Black Hair Care vlogger who covers (4C) natural hair, wigs and weaves through her detailed YouTube videos.


Read more at EBONY http://www.ebony.com/style/natural-hair-now-we-arent-all-curly-girl-405#ixzz30l4IUfT7
 

MizzBFly

Well-Known Member
With her article on the topic I bet more naturals that share the same texture will feel more celebrated. She's putting the word out, through her thoughts on paper she brings awareness which is what she hoping for baby steps....I'm not into the social media "look at me" phenom to notice one trend over the other but even still, I would still do me proudly which I know she does so let's K.I.M (smiles)
 

Pompous Blue

Well-Known Member
Very good article and very good YT videol. I agree with her.

The discrimination even exists on this board.

I'm a natural 4C and found it hard to get recommendations for products that will work on my hair and styling options. Found plenty of recommendations for DH's hair; he's Type 3.

I was like her; confused about the talk of curly-haired girls....laying down edges, wash 'n gos....what is that?

But I found my way and didn't let the promotion of Type 3 hair as the ideal hair deter me from achieving my goal of going natural and staying that way.

I'm looking forward to her video on all of the new vitamins that have come out and being promoted to AA women.

I hope the conversation continues......
 

overtherainbow

Well-Known Member
Wow, this article is way better than her accompanying video. In the video, she sounded bitter and I didn't like the way she called out MiniMarley for getting more views than her. IMO there was a better way to lay down her argument instead of saying point blank people don't watch my videos because my hair is kinky. Tell that to CharyJay and Naptural.
However her article speaks the truth about texture discrimination and how the kinkier, Z-shaped 4's are not well represented on a commercial level. And when a product is marketed towards these hair types, it is for "curl elongation" and "anti shrinkage" purposes. I love that she is bringing more attention to this growing problem.
 

DarkJoy

Bent. Not Broken.
Yes, I like gritty and to the point but her video was... Off putting.

She is right tho. 2 years ago I couldn't find truly nappy vloggers. All the touted gurus were type 3s. It's gotten much better this last 12 months and I am mighty grateful :)
 

naturalmanenyc

Well-Known Member
I completely agree with her that Type 4 hair videos don't get as much love as videos with looser textures.

My Wash & Go video views as compared to my straightening videos is drastic. 2,000 - 3,000 views versus Keratin straightening at over 100,000 and 330,000 views.

My Wash & Go videos on type 4 hair
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMWwuqs4xm0 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U0Ijh_Iamc

versus my Keratin Straightening videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZorInGU3qE and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpO-vWt3a0k

I don't blame the companies. They put out products that they believe people want to buy based on market research. The problem is the consumer. The "good hair" versus "bad hair" belief system is alive and well even in the natural hair community. I think that a lot of naturals are unfortunately chasing a type 3 curly hair ideal.
 

prettybyrd

Well-Known Member
My BFF and I went natural at 20. We're now 36. When we went natural the "movement" of black women wearing natural hair was gaining more and more steam. I remember going to an open forum back then where women were talking about how curly hair was being preferred over kinky hair in the "natural hair movement". I am so sad that this debate is still happening 16 years later.

Unfortunately, hair type, just like skin color, are issues that plague black people. The only solution (I can think of) is to be the representation that you seek. That's hard, and a bit soul crushing, as I can see from what this woman explains, but if she is really making herself a member of the NHC because she wants to be a beacon for 4C girls, quitting is the worse thing that she can do.

Thriving, healthy communities are not monolithic. When people refer to the "natural hair community", they make an assumption that everyone in that community will be alike. If there is going to be a NHC, that community needs to be accepting and respectful of all of its members. Additionally, all of the members need to recognize the role they play in shaping that community. In this case, this woman seems finished with the NHC when what she should do, if she really cares, is to continue to be the face and voice for what she considers a group that is under represented.
 

ManeStreet

Well-Known Member
I'm not going to speak on her opinion but it teens of numbers more black women are 3c, 4a or 4b than 4c. 4c isn't as common of a hair texture IMO. But I could be wrong.
 

CaraWalker

Well-Known Member
My BFF and I went natural at 20. We're now 36. When we went natural the "movement" of black women wearing natural hair was gaining more and more steam. I remember going to an open forum back then where women were talking about how curly hair was being preferred over kinky hair in the "natural hair movement". I am so sad that this debate is still happening 16 years later.

Unfortunately, hair type, just like skin color, are issues that plague black people.
The only solution (I can think of) is to be the representation that you seek. That's hard, and a bit soul crushing, as I can see from what this woman explains, but if she is really making herself a member of the NHC because she wants to be a beacon for 4C girls, quitting is the worse thing that she can do.

Thriving, healthy communities are not monolithic. When people refer to the "natural hair community", they make an assumption that everyone in that community will be alike. If there is going to be a NHC, that community needs to be accepting and respectful of all of its members. Additionally, all of the members need to recognize the role they play in shaping that community. In this case, this woman seems finished with the NHC when what she should do, if she really cares, is to continue to be the face and voice for what she considers a group that is under represented.

:yep: im flat out not going to participate in these kinds of "debates" anymore. theyre ridiculous and as a whole we need to STOP.
 

EnExitStageLeft

Well-Known Member
While I'm sure she has a valid reasoning behind her vid/article.......I just don't feel the same way. Then again I have a bit of a obsession with type 4b/c hair, so my opinion may be a bit skewed.

The bulk of who I follow/hair stalk is 4b/4c

AfricanExport
KikiCoulture
FusionofCultures
mstanish1
tiajonay
Froreal3
virtuenow
DoDo
jewel
....And the list goes on.

I LOVE me a kinky texture because as ManeStreet mentioned....it isn't common.

Long hair in general is BEAUTIFUL..do not get me wrong. But its just something about long kinky hair that makes me hairgasm instantly.

I can't explain it. I just love me a "Kink".
 

cutiebe2

Well-Known Member
I am listening to her video now. I will push back on her and say that I equally feel I don't fit in because my hair is not super kinky and thick. I will agree with her that you shouldn't oogly a woman like Taren if you don't have her texture. At the same time Nap85 is popular and I will never have her hair either! She must have 3x the amount of hair I have and her hair is coarser than mine.

I agree with her that the media hypes a certain type of curly hair. In fact a lot of what she is saying is true, most of the stuff being pushed in for products and swindlers abound. At the same time, it doesn't mean that her type of hair (4c) is what everyone has. I haven't watched her video but she may not be representative of my hair either.
 

BlaqKitty

Well-Known Member
I think she's bitter because she feels like she deserves more views on youtube, when really that isn't the case. I just don't think it has anything to do with hair, but the fact that she isn't very likable in MY opinion.

Nikkimae for example, she has kinky hair, I would call it 4b/4c. She has a lot of subscribers and over all is just way more likable.
 

HoneyBadger

Well-Known Member
I don't know if my opinion matters on this subject :look: but I agree with her.

I have long felt like the phrase "good hair" has been sugarcoated...I mean replaced by "hair type".

Yep. The term 4z has replaced nappy but the underlying sentiment is the same :ohwell:

She's right and I hope her article gets a lot publicity.
 

DigitalRain

Well-Known Member
I follow CurlyNikki on FB and have not seen 4b/c pic featured in her posts on my feed. Don't know if I was absent the day she posted a b/c hair type, but I've been waiting for a while and have yet to see one.
 

Embyra

Well-Known Member
I follow CurlyNikki on FB and have not seen 4b/c pic featured in her posts on my feed. Don't know if I was absent the day she posted a b/c hair type, but I've been waiting for a while and have yet to see one.


Curly Nikki has been called out many times for not featuring enough 4c types on her blog I even saw where she talked about it in the comments section years ago

Sent from my iPad using LHCF
 

DigitalRain

Well-Known Member
Curly Nikki has been called out many times for not featuring enough 4c types on her blog I even saw where she talked about it in the comments section years ago

Sent from my iPad using LHCF

Didn't know that, wow. I've come close to unfollowing her.
 

Saludable84

Better Late Than Ugly
I think the hair typing thing is a fail altogether. :rolleyes:

I just shouted thank. See, this is why I like you. I tell people all the time I don't believe in hair typing and people act like its a crime. I've said it once and I'll say it again: it's just another form of segregation. So sad that black women have accepted it.
 

Dilettante

New Member
I agree with just about everything she said in the article. On the internet you mostly see natural hair in the 3ish range, but in real life I see way more type 4s. The representation just isn't there online. I don't think hairtyping is inherently evil (because you need a language to talk about your experiences in), but I do think some people use it as a more exact way to create a divide between hair they think is good or bad.

That video though.... It makes a lot of good points too, but I paused at the stuff about the low views and companies not working with her. I've watched some of Jouelzy's other videos, and honestly if I had a natural product company I doubt I'd want her as a spokeswoman. She's beautiful, but her videos sometimes aren't 'family friendly' and her product reviews can be vague. A company wants someone who will really describe the product well without going above PG language.
 
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sharifeh

Well-Known Member
I'm not going to speak on her opinion but it teens of numbers more black women are 3c, 4a or 4b than 4c. 4c isn't as common of a hair texture IMO. But I could be wrong.

i have no idea, but maybe its possible that this hair type is just as common as the others but people aren't as likely to go natural with this hair type or it doesn't get as much publicity in blogs etc...
 

ckisland

Well-Known Member
The hierarchy is definitely real in the hair community, but like other posters have mentioned, I don't think 4c hair is actually that common. From what I've seen on various hair forums and in real life, there are far more 3c, 3c/4a and 4a/4b type ladies than 3a/3b or 4c. I'm type 4, but I don't really watch type 4b or 4c youtubers because their methods or hairstyles don't work for my hair. My hair flourishes from wash n'gos, and most type 4s don't wear wash n'gos regularly, so I end up following ladies who are 3cs because their techniques work for my hair.

Another thing that I don't think people think about is that many of these type 3s don't just have black viewers. Their curl type is relevant to mixed, Latina, and ethnic white ladies, while a type 4b/c channel will only be relevant to a portion of the black natural community. It's the same with beauty gurus. Most of the top ones have a lighter complexion that correlates with a much larger and more diverse world audience. So even if you took colorism out of the equation, a lady with an olive complexion should have a much larger viewing audience than a lady with dark chocolate skin.

An issue that goes along with this is the explosion of natural weaves. A lot of those curls on tumblr and instagram aren't real to begin with, which is giving a false impression of what natural hair really looks like, even when it's type 3. And in real life, I now see a lot of curly heads but 95% of them are fake :perplexed. I think that is causing a new level of insecurity and disappointment than any actual type 3 youtuber, because the average natural can't compete with the thickness, perfect curl definition, and lack of shrinkage that a weave or wig can give.
 
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HoneyBadger

Well-Known Member
Didn't know that, wow. I've come close to unfollowing her.


There's a reason she's popular and she knows her bread and butter is other heads that look like hers. That's also the reason I'm not on her site.

Also, as someone mentioned, "type 4s" may go natural, fall for the "all you need is co-wash to get your WnG looking right" mantra, get disillusioned and then return to perms. Jouelzy almost did and so did I.
 

prettybyrd

Well-Known Member
I just shouted thank. See, this is why I like you. I tell people all the time I don't believe in hair typing and people act like its a crime. I've said it once and I'll say it again: it's just another form of segregation. So sad that black women have accepted it.

See, I was done with this until I read your post.

IIRC, the original hair typing system did not leave much room for black women at all. Anyone else remember that? It was like: 1, 2, 3a, 3b, and 4. I think that's right. (I think it came out in like 1997 or so.)And the 4 looked like Rachel True - not a hair type many people at the time associated with black women. All of the models that were used for type 4 were curly haired bi/multi racial women.

Andre only changed his system as more black women went natural, and because black women created the 4a, b, and c categories. He didn't do that! There was no way I was going to embrace that system. It was a set up from the start.

This whole system has become a device used to divide black women. Something that was so awesome - black women embracing and loving their natural selves - is becoming something ugly.

ETA: I think that the 3c category was added to the system, not an original part of this system.
 
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uofmpanther

4ab, lopo, fine, low-med density
EnExitStageLeft

I think I get what she is saying, though she could have said it a little better. Her issue, in the video, is that she has big numbers in youtube viewers and subscribers, but she is not getting the same love from hair care companies and hair shows that other vloggers with less viewers are getting. I tend to agree with her. I could be wrong but, aside from CharyJay, I think the only vlogger with kinkier hair that I really see out there doing promotional appearances is Jenell from Kinky Curly Coily Me, and I feel my own kind of way about her product reviews. Even with CharyJay, I may only know who she is because she is from my city.

I have some coils (3c/4a) and some kinks (4b/c) and, when I started my natural hair journey, I was so confused about why my hair didn't behave like the people with all curly or coily hair, who were publicized as being "hair gurus". I was aware of the hair typing system, but it didn't really click. After watching Jouelzy, Naptural85 and CharyJay, I finally started to get it.

As an aside, you just gave me two new youtube people to look up...lol
 

meecee

Well-Known Member
I've been a member of natural hair boards since 1999 long before curlyhair.com began fully accepting type 4 haired ladies, and witnessed the creation of napturality by DeeCoily in response to the need for a hair forum that was more inclusive of kinkier hair types. I can honestly say this conversation will never ever go away. As long as we have new sistas learning to embrace their natural hair, there will always be a rather public process of women learning to accept their natural hair. This is difficult as it will take many many years of reconditioning your mind. I went through the same process when I first went natural, I wanted curl definition that simply could not be created on my head.

I agree with the underlying message of this article, the most popular youtubers and bloggers do have looser hair textures. AS a 4a/4b I simply keep it moving. I don't watch or subscribe to those channels because my hair is not the same. I am okay with that. I am so grateful for the type 4 ladies that chose to promote styles that do not focus on wash and go's. I have learned to do so much more with my hair besides twists.

Some of my favorite type 4 youtubers: Iknowlee, Blakisbeautyful, Kyss My Hair, mrskw7, Dawnyele, Mynaturalsistas, and CharyJay. Please check these ladies out if your looking for styles besides wash n go's.
 

MileHighDiva

A+ Hair Care Queen
This reminds me of that video that LHDC-TV posted a couple of months ago, where she's frustrated that her views and subbies are not at the same level as other YT'ers. Of course, she blames it all on doing business with black owned business' (BOBs). I quickly, unsubscribed from her channel.

This is my first time watching a Jouezly video, so I can't speak about her previous content. However, both she and LHDC-TV need to realize that just because you launch a YT channel (business) doesn't mean that manna is going to fall from the sky. YT success is not an entitlement. Some will be uber successful and some will not.

I'm not touching the hair typing stuff :yawn: The slave masters did a really good job of teaching Black people to be divisive. :sad: Did it occur to her that using fowl language or inferring it, may turn off potential financially lucrative partnerships? :nono:
 

CocoGlow

Well-Known Member
This is a sensitive topic for me so please excuse the long-winded-ness lol :drunk:

This has been going on since ... forever!

Growing up, girls with silkier, shiner, curlier, wavier, longer hair would get all the attention from boys & girls as being "exotic" and would brag that they had "Indian" in their family ... while girls with kinkier, nappier, tighter coils with less sheen & more shrinkage would be viewed as "regular"

Before YouTube, the Natural Hair "celebrities" were on Fotki and Blogs & Forums like this. The girls with the looser textures got most of the attention & adoration.

The only girls with Nappy hair like mine that got a lot of attention & adoration were those with LONG Nappy hair. If those 4B/4C kinks stretched down their back, even to their waist OMG! They were unicorns because most of us had never seen THIS texture reach those lengths (aside from locs). So here the focus was on "Girl how did you get all that regular Nappy hair to grow that long?" - not "Girl your hair is soooooo beautiful (regardless of length), I'm drooling" like it was with the looser textures. :look:

Longer hair was revered more than shorter for ALL hair types, of course, but a girl with shorter 3B/C ... even 4A hair with coils poppin' would get waaaay more attention than girls with 4B/C hair of the same length

Just the way it is... and has been .... nothin' new here.

She mentioned that years ago she asked a girl with looser hair how she got her slick shiny waves & curls poppin' -- it never occurred to me to ask a girl with shiny waves & curls poppin' how they got their hair like that. I instinctively knew that it had more to do with their texture than technique, and while I saw the beauty in those curls and all that shine, I never tried to make my hair do that because I knew that my texture & density would not slick to my head that way or shine that way - and so what?!! :look:

When my hair was longer I loved to put my hair into buns - I would smooth it with a scarf for a few minutes but that was as slick as it would get (and this "slickness" was very temporary by the way :giggle:)and I was fine with that. I loved my cotton and was not trying to get it to look like what it's not:



So with the plethora of curly hair love going around and pics of sleek shiny buns all over the place, what helped me accept and love my kinks for what it can do in a bun? My own experiments and seeing pics of girls with my texture on Fotki, etc wearing buns -- not focusing on the best holding gels and shine - embracing the pouf factor. I had to see what was possible with my hair. So now whenever I see a cute style regardless of the texture I try to translate that into what it will look like on my head with my texture.

My poofy cotton texture with it's own low sheen in a bun does not need to be super slick against my head with waves and shine to be beautiful or professional. I don't need silky defined coils/curls either. If I really want my hair to be slick to my head for a particular style, I will just cornrow or flat twist my hair - this gives me a similar look without trying to force my hair to lay down with some miracle gel and then getting mad that it doesn't work! There ain't enough gel & scarf tying in the world to get slick shiny waves for me and guess what? I Don't Care! LOL :lol: I'm not looking to a wash n Go to get curls ... If I want "curls" I'll do a Bantu knot-out or twist-out .... If I want waves, I'll do a braid-out :yep:

Hopefully with more representation from 4B/C girls embracing their texture on YouTube, the more girls with hair like mine who are new to being natural or new to loving their own texture will be inspired. Mainstream society and popular brands may never embrace my texture as being just as beautiful as looser textures (I really don't expect them to) but what really matters is that I do and others with my texture do the same.

Jouelzy and others with our texture may not ever get as many views/subscribers as those with looser textures but so what?!!! As long as these vloggers/bloggers keep up the good work, those of us with this texture will seek them out and appreciate what they do. :yep:

By the way, when the natural hair movement started a few years ago, all I would see were the silky curly haired models on TV and ads but now I'm seeing more variety and kinkier haired models are being used as well so it's getting better, but again, I don't expect it. I used to whine about it and get frustrated but now I accept it for what it is and try to seek out my own inspiration and do my job on a local personal level to inspire others :yep:

ETA: I read the article - did not look at the video ... I could care less about her or anyone else getting or not getting product endorsement deals, etc - that's not my concern. I watch & follow those who are creative with their styles and/or have great techniques & regimens ...
 
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