Losing my religion

[webby]

I hope this is not taken the wrong way. I don't want to sound offensive, but I have a question.

I grew up in church(es) and as a result, I have somewhat lost my "religion".

I have gone to Pentecostal churches, Baptist, Ashrams (Hindu religion), you name it. I have heard people condemn Jehovah's Witness and was engaged to a non practicing Muslim, who had nothing but negative things to say about Christians.

I questioned "religion" itself and wonder if God cares how we worship.

For instance, in Spanish you call God "Dios". Of course, He understand each language, but does He care how we worship Him? Do you all think that God prefers a religion?

I know this is a crazy question, but I have always wondered about it.

 

[pebbles]

Hmm, your question is probably in the wrong forum, but let me say something to you. I noticed you said that you've been to many different churches, and they are of varying beliefs. The most important question I would like you to ponder is this: what do you believe in your heart? Once you answer honestly to yourself, then take it from there.

 

[webby]

Pebbles, I probably didn't ask my question the way I intended. I have so many thoughts going on at one time, it's often difficult to form a cohesive sentence

I believe in God, Jesus Christ is my saviour. I just often wonder if there is such thing as a "right way" to worship. Does that make any sense?

 

[Belle Du Jour]

Webby,
I'm currently reading the Purpose Driven Life, and one of the chapters is on worship. I believe you can go to Church with hate in your heart and claim to "worship" but God doesn't recognize it. I think you can go to work, read a book, help someone out, appreciate a sunny day with an attitude of thansgiving, and it's a form of worship.

I don't think God is as concerned with tradition as much as we are. God looks at the heart first and foremost. I think the best way that we can worship God is to follow His commandments and be kind to other people.

 

[pebbles]

Oh, ok! I thought you were saying you weren't sure what to believe in. Sorry!

Ok. I started to type this really long explanation, but give me some time to think of a more simplified answer.

 

[cece22]

Weby,

I understand your question in full let me rephrase so we are on the same page. You want to know is there a right way to worship or a particular way that pleases God? To find the answers to these questions it takes guidance from God so pray to him directly and ask him. Secondly it takes serious study and meditation the best place to start is in the Bible it has all his past dealing his requirements and all of the things that he wants from us humans. Also you can learn things from others but you have to be careful not all things are true and God is a God of Truth so any religion that knowingly supports false doctrines or lies is not pleasing to God.

John 8:32 And you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit and those worshiping him must worship in spirit and truth.

 

[BlkHoneyLuv2U]

Webby,
I'm currently reading the Purpose Driven Life, and one of the chapters is on worship. I believe you can go to Church with hate in your heart and claim to "worship" but God doesn't recognize it. I think you can go to work, read a book, help someone out, appreciate a sunny day with an attitude of thansgiving, and it's a form of worship.

I don't think God is as concerned with tradition as much as we are. God looks at the heart first and foremost. I think the best way that we can worship God is to follow His commandments and be kind to other people.

What she said. I know there have been times while I was still in college, I would take my kids to school and then come home, go out on my front porch with a cup of coffee and just sit and watch the squirrels in the trees, listen to the birds singing their songs, the wind softly blowing the leaves, the sun shinning through the branches. All of this would bring a smile to my face. I think God appreciates it when we look around at the things He created for us and it brings a smile to our face. I've been driving in my car and can see something in nature that makes me smile and thnak God for whatever it is.

 

[webby]

Thank you ladies

Pebbles, this is a very difficult question for me to phrase properly; I believe that Cece nailed what I was trying to say.

The reason why I wanted to bring this question to all of you, is because I knew that it would be received with love, not taken with malice.

I have always pondered what God, Himself thought of religion. For instance, does God love me more, because I'm not Muslim? Then that question would lead me to ask, well certainly God loves Muslims too; He wouldn't turn His back on them, but we worship and praise God so very differently.

 

[pebbles]

Thank you ladies

Pebbles, this is a very difficult question for me to phrase properly; I believe that Cece nailed what I was trying to say.

The reason why I wanted to bring this question to all of you, is because I knew that it would be received with love, not taken with malice.

I have always pondered what God, Himself thought of religion. For instance, does God love me more, because I'm not Muslim? Then that question would lead me to ask, well certainly God loves Muslims too; He wouldn't turn His back on them, but we worship and praise God so very differently.

Oh, I absolutely understand your plight. And I'm glad that Cece was able to answer it in a very simple and basic way. This is a difficult question for me to answer because I'm ever mindful of the fact that there are people of different faiths that will view this forum, and it is not my intention to hurt or allienate anyone. So let me put it as simply as I can. One of my favortite bible teachers said it best. Religion, in general, is fallen humanities attempt to reach up to God and be acceptable through their works and what they do. Christianity, on the other hand, is a divine gift based on what Christ has done. He did it all on the cross.

When you worship God, worship Him in spirit and in truth-John 4:23. Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness, giving glory that is due to His name-Psalms 29:2. Be blessed, sis!

 

[beverly]

Webby I think I can answer part of what you are asking. I recently started going to an AME church. I grew up in a baptist church all my life. Denominationally I personally don't think it matters what church/denomination it is because its all based on the same principles, Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are one. We have little things we do in service traditionally that may differ, but our foundation is still based on the holy bible. If you believe in the Christian faith, according to the bible, it is very specific that God gives eternal life and salvation only to those who believe that Jesus Christ is his son, and he died for our sins to bring us back into the lost relationship that we had before Adam sinned. Muslim, and other faiths believe either that Jesus is not the savior/son of God, or are still waiting for the savior to return. So for example, if one believes according to the Muslim faith, according to the bible, that person will not recieve salvation or enter heaven.

 

[webby]

Webby I think I can answer part of what you are asking. I recently started going to an AME church. I grew up in a baptist church all my life. Denominationally I personally don't think it matters what church/denomination it is because its all based on the same principles, Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are one. We have little things we do in service traditionally that may differ, but our foundation is still based on the holy bible. If you believe in the Christian faith, according to the bible, it is very specific that God gives eternal life and salvation only to those who believe that Jesus Christ is his son, and he died for our sins to bring us back into th lst relationship that we had before Adam sinned. Muslim, and other faiths believe either that Jesus is not the savior/son of God, or are still waiting for the savior to return. So for example, if you believe according to the Muslim faith, according to the bible, you will not recieve salvation or enter heaven.

Ok...that makes perfect sense. I have always wondered about this, couldn't quite find an answer. Thank you

 

[DelightfulFlame]

Oh, I absolutely understand your plight. And I'm glad that Cece was able to answer it in a very simple and basic way. This is a difficult question for me to answer because I'm ever mindful of the fact that there are people of different faiths that will view this forum, and it is not my intention to hurt or allienate anyone. So let me put it as simply as I can. One of my favortite bible teachers said it best. Religion, in general, is fallen humanities attempt to reach up to God and be acceptable through their works and what they do. Christianity, on the other hand, is a divine gift based on what Christ has done. He did it all on the cross.

When you worship God, worship Him in spirit and in truth-John 4:23. Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness, giving glory that is due to His name-Psalms 29:2. Be blessed, sis!

I see what Pebbles is trying to say, but I don't agree totally. To me, Christianity does the same thing. It says that inorder to be saved you have to ACCEPT Christ. Yet the bible says that God accepts you. The credit is being taken from God when people say this.

Peter did not want to deny Jesus. He wept about the thought of it. Yet, he had to because it was the will of God. When it is God's will for a person to be saved, they will be. If it isn't, then they can't be. Will they go to hell (full of fire and brimstone) for doing something that they cannot do until it is time for them too? I don't think so. The bible says that every tongue will confess Jesus.

I said all of that to say that I was raised Baptist. Ventured into non-demoninational and pentecostal. I have lost religion, but I have not lost my spirituality, and Christ is at the core of that. I do not miss church and it's laws, and the truth really does set you free. I do sometimes miss fellowship, but realize that not everybody is able to "hear" what I'm hearing right now, so my fellowship is mostly on the internet and among a few close friends that "hear" too.

 

[pebbles]

I see what Pebbles is trying to say, but I don't agree totally. To me, Christianity does the same thing. It says that inorder to be saved you have to ACCEPT Christ. Yet the bible says that God accepts you. The credit is being taken from God when people say this.

I respect your views, but I'm saying what the bible says, and I adhere strictly to the book. The Word of God is clear that works cannot get you into the kingdom. You must believe and accept that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, and that He died for your sins. That's it. Accepting Jesus is not works, but a confession of faith.

 

[webby]

The bible says that every tongue will confess Jesus.

That one line took my breath. That says it all.

I said all of that to say that I was raised Baptist. Ventured into non-demoninational and pentecostal. I have lost religion, but I have not lost my spirituality, and Christ is at the core of that. I do not miss church and it's laws, and the truth really does set you free. I do sometimes miss fellowship, but realize that not everybody is able to "hear" what I'm hearing right now, so my fellowship is mostly on the internet and among a few close friends that "hear" too.

It sounds like I am on your path. I love the Lord, but don't always find the laws that we, as humans, impose to be Godly. I am trying to make it to church more now, for the sake of my son.

I don't want to be a do-as-I-say-parent, but I also don't want to be a hypocrite.

 

[DelightfulFlame]

I respect your views, but I'm saying what the bible says, and I adhere strictly to the book. The Word of God is clear that works cannot get you into the kingdom. You must believe and accept that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, and that He died for your sins. That's it. Accepting Jesus is not works, but a confession of faith.

Believe me, I respect you too...and I too am also reading the bible. It just speaks differently to me. Everything I say is based on scripture. Everyone is going to believe differently based on interpretation and what God reveals to them. He has shown us different things...all part of His will...and I'm okay with that.

ETA: Wouldn't saying you accepted Christ count as works?

 

[DelightfulFlame]

Webby, here's a site that an eye opener for me. I went with the intention of telling this man how wrong he was...but when I began to study the scriptures, I realized that I couldn't. www.bible-truths.com

Also, here are some of my journal entries on free will and other spirit stuff...I don't claim to know everything by any means...but I do know that what I have been "fed" doesn't add up.

http://delightfulflame.bravejournal.com/entry/5845

http://delightfulflame.bravejournal.com/entry/7802

http://delightfulflame.bravejournal.com/entry/7815

http://delightfulflame.bravejournal.com/entry/7839

http://delightfulflame.bravejournal.com/entry/7861

http://delightfulflame.bravejournal.com/entry/8286

http://delightfulflame.bravejournal.com/entry/8883

http://delightfulflame.bravejournal.com/entry/9633

 

[webby]

Delightful, thank you so much. I appreciate you taking the time to share that information with me.

To all of you have responded, I thank you too. I get so much from you all, more than words can say.

 

[pebbles]

ETA: Wouldn't saying you accepted Christ count as works?

Nope! Again, that's a confession of faith and has nothing to do with works. Absolutely nothing.

 

[DelightfulFlame]

Nope! Again, that's a confession of faith and has nothing to do with works. Absolutely nothing.

So then do you believe that baptism is not necessary to be saved? Is that also a confession of faith?

 

[MomofThreeBoys]

I respect your views, but I'm saying what the bible says, and I adhere strictly to the book. The Word of God is clear that works cannot get you into the kingdom. You must believe and accept that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, and that He died for your sins. That's it. Accepting Jesus is not works, but a confession of faith.

ITA with one caveat. You are only held responsible for the "light" you are given. If someone doesn't "know" of Him, I believe they can make it into the kingdom. There is a debate of what "know" really means.

Peter did not want to deny Jesus. He wept about the thought of it. Yet, he had to because it was the will of God. When it is God's will for a person to be saved, they will be. If it isn't, then they can't be. Will they go to hell (full of fire and brimstone) for doing something that they cannot do until it is time for them too? I don't think so. The bible says that every tongue will confess Jesus.

I respect your view too Delightfulflame, but I'm not understanding how you thought Peter had to deny Christ.

God gives us free will otherwise what would be the point of Jesus dying on the Cross? What would be the point of this sinful world? God could just command us to obey, make us obey and basically turn us into drones. He grants us free will b/c He loves us.

Peter had free will and he made the choice to deny Christ. Christ saw the future and knew this would happen and told Peter this. Just b/c Christ saw the future does not mean he made Peter deny Christ.

 

[pebbles]

So then do you believe that baptism is not necessary to be saved? Is that also a confession of faith?

The bible says that if you believe, you should be baptized. Mark 16:16 Yes, that is a confession of faith. When you enter the waters of baptism in front of a room full of people, you are making a confession of faith in Jesus.

ETA: Forgot to add the scripture reference. If you are obedient to the word, then baptism would be a given. It has nothing to do with what I believe to be correct, and everything to do with what the book says.

 

[DelightfulFlame]

From what I can tell, Christ was sent here to save the world according to the will of the Father. Now, whether God would make us drones and the point of this sinful world, I don't know. I do know that God created evil because he said so in the bible. So apparently there is a point to this sinful world, and it is that way because God willed it that way.

Isaiah 45 (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Romans 9 (KJV)
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Christ looked into the future...yes, I agree...since he is the beginning and the end. So what is the future determined by? You think man can change the future? You think Peter did something that God didn't want him to do? So Peter is stronger than God?

What about Joseph...when his brothers apologized for selling him into slavery, he responded that it was God that brought him there (paraphrased..will have to find the actual scripture).

What about Pharoah...remember when God hardened his heart? Did Pharoah have the free will to unharden it?

What about Adam and Eve? You think this whole world wasn't meant to be? You think we would be running around naked with lions picking fruit off trees right now if they hadn't ate that apple? You don't think that if God hadn't intended for them to eat that apple that they wouldn't have? God, almighty supreme, couldn't stop His own creation from doing something He didn't want them to do?

So do you also think that the devil was a good angel? The bible says he was bad fromt he BEGINNING.

Do you think Jesus only came about because of Adam and Eve's sin? The bible says that the Lamb was here from the BEGINNING as well.

All of the names that are written in the book of Life...yep, they were written from the BEGINNING.

I don't know about you, but I see a PLAN or a WILL, and it ain't mines.

 

[DelightfulFlame]

The bible says that if you believe, you should be baptized. Mark 16:16 Yes, that is a confession of faith. When you enter the waters of baptism in front of a room full of people, you are making a confession of faith in Jesus.

ETA: Forgot to add the scripture reference. If you are obedient to the word, then baptism would be a given. It has nothing to do with what I believe to be correct, and everything to do with what the book says.

So then you believe that everyone who isn't baptized is going to hell? So the baptism is what saves? What about the man who was on the cross with Jesus? Is he the only one that will be saved without being baptized?

 

[DelightfulFlame]

Here's a scripture about God's will operating ALL things.

Ephesians 1:11
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[pebbles]

I believe that in creating Lucifer and giving him free will, God created the potential for evil. Lucifer had freedom of choice, and he made the wrong choice. So did Adam and Eve. And because they had a choice to do good or evil and chose the latter, God had a "back up" plan for redemption.

Whether we would all be running around naked in the garden of eden is beyond my knowing, because I don't know what God's perfect plan would have been. But I do know that because of the free will HE gave to Adam and Eve, we are all living in His "permissive" will.

In the case of Joseph, God raised him up and brought him through, despite the evil plans of his brothers, who again, were operating with their free will. Again, God made a way out of no way. The Lord got some glory out of that situation!

In the case of pharoah, God made it so that His people would see that no matter how difficult things got, no matter how resistant the very nature of man could be, no matter how man can possibly think to thwart the plans of God and suppress His people, God is still in control, and there is NOTHING that can stand in HIS way when HE is of a mind to rescue you. All of that to prove to HIS people that HE is GOD, and in coming out of bondage, they shouldn't forget what HE did for them and worship other gods. But we know how that went. Free will in operation, again!

Jesus was always with God, before Adam and Eve, before the beginning of time. He came down to earth, left His throne of glory, to save them and the rest of us.

Because we are given free will, again, the LORD knows who is going to accept HIS word, and who will not. Thus those names are written since the beginning. Free will of man will either save him or condemn him.

And there is a plan. Redemption. At the end of this long story, the world will be just as the FATHER had planned for it to be. The human race just decided to take the "scenic" route.

 

[DelightfulFlame]

So God doesn't have a mind to rescue everyone?

1 Timothy 2
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

So they were operating in "free will" in the evil that God put in them and didn't plan for them to use? Remember, he said He created evil and creates one vessel for dishonor and one for honor.

So "free will" (i.e. man's will) is what saves us? I thought it was God.

Romans 3
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

John 15:16
16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

[pebbles]

So then you believe that everyone who isn't baptized is going to hell? So the baptism is what saves? What about the man who was on the cross with Jesus? Is he the only one that will be saved without being baptized?

Delightful, I think you miss the point of that. The man was on the cross and Jesus on another cross beside him. There was no way for Jesus to baptize him there and then. But the man made a confession of faith, and Jesus saved him right there. Had they been on the ground in a different situation, Jesus would have told him to be baptized.

I don't know if he will be the only one saved without being baptized. Perhaps not, but that's a question for Jesus. Only the Lord knows that. But I will say this: disobedience to the word of God has consistently gotten man into trouble. If the word of God says if you believe you should be baptized, I wonder why anyone would argue with that simple directive? That's what's most startling to me. I don't understand why that would be argued by anyone.

 

[DelightfulFlame]

and...God purposely created millions of children to be as kindling for a never ending hell fire...these same children that He loves so much, He sent His only begotten son to save them.

And this son, the savior of the world, will in fact not save the world?

 

[MomofThreeBoys]

Christ looked into the future...yes, I agree...since he is the beginning and the end. So what is the future determined by? You think man can change the future? You think Peter did something that God didn't want him to do? So Peter is stronger than God?

Yes, he did something God wouldn't want him to do. I believe he gives us free will. Now there are times God will intervene in a situation and use others unexpectedly or willingly. But we are responsible for the decisions/choices we make.

I don't think its about being stronger than God. He let's us make our own decisions. Otherwise, I could run around and do absolutely anything I wanted and b/c it happened I could say "Hey, God must have wanted it to happen". I would be absolved of anything I did wrong b/c God willed it.

What about Joseph...when his brothers apologized for selling him into slavery, he responded that it was God that brought him there (paraphrased..will have to find the actual scripture).

This statement represents how God turned a situation for that family's benefit. When he was sold into slavery he could have ended up anywhere. But God orchestrated the situation such that their evil act ended up accomplishing good.

What about Pharoah...remember when God hardened his heart? Did Pharoah have the free will to unharden it?

We have to remember the bible we read is a translation and many times we have to go to the original text and read all synonyms for that word. Here is an article that explains it WAY BETTER than I could ever can.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/modules.php?name=Read&cat=7&itemid=2259

Here' is a blurb from the article:
In the case of Pharaoh, “God hardened Pharaoh’s heart” in the sense that God provided the circumstances and the occasion for Pharaoh to be forced to make a decision. God sent Moses to place His demands before Pharaoh. Moses merely announced God’s instructions. God even accompanied His Word with miracles—to confirm the divine origin of the message (cf. Mark 16:20). Pharaoh made up his own mind to resist God’s demands. Of his own accord, he stubbornly refused to comply. Of course, God provided the occasion for Pharaoh to demonstrate his unyielding attitude. If God had not sent Moses, Pharaoh would not have been faced with the dilemma of whether to release the Israelites. So God was certainly the instigator and initiator. But He was not the author of Pharaoh’s defiance.

Notice that in a very real sense, all four of the following statements are true: (1) God hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (2) Moses hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (3) the words that Moses spoke hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (4) Pharaoh hardened his own heart. All four of these observations are accurate, depicting the same truth from different perspectives. In this sense, God is responsible for everything in the Universe, i.e., He has provided the occasion, the circumstances, and the environment in which all things (including people) operate. But He is not guilty of wrong in so doing. From a quick look at a simple Hebrew idiom, it is clear that God did not unjustly or directly harden Pharaoh’s heart. God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), He does not act unjustly (Psalms 33:5), and He has always allowed humans to exercise their free moral agency (Deuteronomy 30:19). God, however, does use the wrong, stubborn decisions committed by rebellious sinners to further His causes (Isaiah 10:5-11). In the case of Pharaoh’s hardened heart, God can be charged with no injustice, and the Bible can be charged with no contradiction. Humans were created with free moral agency and are culpable for their own actions.

What about Adam and Eve? You think this whole world wasn't meant to be? You think we would be running around naked with lions picking fruit off trees right now if they hadn't ate that apple? You don't think that if God hadn't intended for them to eat that apple that they wouldn't have? God, almighty supreme, couldn't stop His own creation from doing something He didn't want them to do?

ummm....Yes!

So do you also think that the devil was a good angel? The bible says he was bad fromt he BEGINNING.

I would love for you to read the section that talks about "Was Satan created evil?" in the following article.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/pdfs/e-books_pdf/s-hom.pdf

Do you think Jesus only came about because of Adam and Eve's sin? The bible says that the Lamb was here from the BEGINNING as well.

ummm.....Yes again! God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit have always been here according to the word of God! That doesn't mean he was to die from the beginning.

All of the names that are written in the book of Life...yep, they were written from the BEGINNING.

Can you quote the exact text you are referring to?

I don't know about you, but I see a PLAN or a WILL, and it ain't mines.

I see a plan as well!!! But I still see where I make choices!

Deut. 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

I CHOOSE Life!

Girl, you are making me work for it!!! We have truly hijacked Webby's thread! I'm sorry I had to quote a few articles, but I would have had to write a book to answer all those questions. And they say it so much better than I can!

 

[DelightfulFlame]

Delightful, I think you miss the point of that. The man was on the cross and Jesus on another cross beside him. There was no way for Jesus to baptize him there and then. But the man made a confession of faith, and Jesus saved him right there. Had they been on the ground in a different situation, Jesus would have told him to be baptized.

I don't know if he will be the only one saved without being baptized. Perhaps not, but that's a question for Jesus. Only the Lord knows that. But I will say this: disobedience to the word of God has consistently gotten man into trouble. If the word of God says if you believe you should be baptized, I wonder why anyone would argue with that simple directive? That's what's most startling to me. I don't understand why that would be argued by anyone.

My point is that you cannot go against the will of God. His will is done. I believe that I should be baptized...and I was...twice. That was God's will for my life. There are other people that will not be baptized before they die. They may not even confess before they die. But they will confess and they will be saved according to God's will in His time.