Pope declares all are saved

[Ithacagurl]

Pope declares atheists are also saved???

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

“Doing good” the Pope explained, is not a matter of faith: “It is a duty, it is an identity card that our Father has given to all of us, because He has made us in His image and likeness. And He does good, always.”


Text from page http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013...ace/en1-694445
of the Vatican Radio website

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/201...counter_is_the_foundation_of_peace/en1-694445

 

[JaneBond007]

So, Jesus has redeemed all mankind. Man must receive His gift...but the sacrifice has been made as He died for all. As I interpret this for my own edification, he is saying that mankind needs to meet on common ground of doing good and stop killing each other in the name of G-d or any religion or belief system. G-d wrote the law of right and wrong on every heart and since He made every man in His image, we must emulate G-d by doing good.

Actually, what he said, and within context fully of that statement was...
------------------------------------------------------------


(Vatican Radio) “Doing good” is a principle that unites all humanity, beyond the diversity of ideologies and religions, and creates the “culture of encounter” that is the foundation of peace: this is what Pope said at Mass this morning at the Domus Santae Martae, in the presence of employees of the Governorate of Vatican City. Cardinal Bechara Boutros Rai, Patriarch of Antioch of the Maronites, concelebrated at the Mass.

Wednesday’s Gospel speaks to us about the disciples who prevented a person from outside their group from doing good. “They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of ​​possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”:

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can. He must. Not can: must! Because he has this commandment within him. Instead, this ‘closing off’ that imagines that those outside, everyone, cannot do good is a wall that leads to war and also to what some people throughout history have conceived of: killing in the name of God. That we can kill in the name of God. And that, simply, is blasphemy. To say that you can kill in the name of God is blasphemy.”

“Instead,” the Pope continued, “the Lord has created us in His image and likeness, and has given us this commandment in the depths of our heart: do good and do not do evil”:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

“Doing good” the Pope explained, is not a matter of faith: “It is a duty, it is an identity card that our Father has given to all of us, because He has made us in His image and likeness. And He does good, always.”

This was the final prayer of Pope Francis:

"Today is [the feast of] Santa Rita, Patron Saint of impossible things – but this seems impossible: let us ask of her this grace, this grace that all, all, all people would do good and that we would encounter one another in this work, which is a work of creation, like the creation of the Father. A work of the family, because we are all children of God, all of us, all of us! And God loves us, all of us! May Santa Rita grant us this grace, which seems almost impossible. Amen.”


Text from page http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/201...counter_is_the_foundation_of_peace/en1-694445
of the Vatican Radio website

 

[MrsHaseeb]

I almost have no words for this... Everyone is saved as long as they "do good"? The message of the Bible is REPENTANCE and coming to Jesus Christ as the only way to the Father. Doing all the good in the world means nothing for a person who hasn't repented and turned to Jesus the Christ to serve God the Father through Him. All this about tolerance basically says Jesus is not the only way to the Father so continue in your false religion and simply "do good" and Jesus will accept you based on your good works... Sounds just like the "Gospel" of Delusion(Inclusion) Carlton Pearson is pushing.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

No person has the ability within themselves to do good in the eyes of God apart from repentance and being washed and regenerated on the inside by the Holy Spirit so to tell a bunch of people in false religions that we can all unite in doing good is false teaching. The only place people trying to unite doing good works of themselves will meet is the lake of fire...

 

[JaneBond007]

This is why we have "For Catholics" threads...because people don't read critically and end up misinterpreting, misguiding and accusing something as unbiblical. Forgive this if it seems harsh...the judgments here against what he said are equally, if not more, harsh. He never said every man will be saved in the end...but that mankind is redeemed. Unless you read catholic documents, please don't judge from a place of not knowing. It's unfair. Read the entire quote. Just as you all don't wish for someone to take your words and mince them, taking them out of context, so you should not do to others.


Redemption:

atonement

delivery from sin


Are you saying that this was NOT accomplished by Jesus dying on the cross in His eternal sacrifice?


John 19:30
When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.


Or are you angry that Pope Francis is saying considering you all on the same level as all mankind and that you are not intrinsically exceptional for having found Jesus? He finds us...He created all mankind and all are His children. All do not know His way, however. Man must be born again. That's by a decision. We do not know when any man makes that final decision and therefore, we should not judge who will be saved in the end. I don't take too kindly to people mushing up entire quotes for ulterior motives of spitting at our Holy Father nor at catholics the world over. What's funny here...because it was taken out of context, you glossed over the very thing he was talking about:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Wednesday's Reading:
Gospel Mk 9:38-40

John said to Jesus,
“Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name,
and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.”
Jesus replied, “Do not prevent him.
There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name
who can at the same time speak ill of me.
For whoever is not against us is for us.”


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Pope Francis' statement on the Gospel of Mark 9:39-40

Wednesday’s Gospel speaks to us about the disciples who prevented a person from outside their group from doing good. “They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of ​​possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”:

 

[MrsHaseeb]

Hi.. what are you talking about? This wasnt posted in a Catholic thread, at least the title didnt say so. I read the post and responded accordingly. Redemption is deliverance from sin and the penalty of sin. How is the entire mankind redeemed if they are still in sin and Jesus promised death and hell as wages for sin? Jesus' sacrifice was completely sufficient when we repent and accept it. Redemption and salvation go hand in hand. You can't separate the two.

Are you accusing me of being proud by asking if I am offended with your pope putting me on the level of everyone else? Well... That's not the case. I love everyone because I am willing to tell them that Christ requires repentance. How could you address people in all kinds of false religions and say we will all meet at a certain destination by being good? Jesus didn't command sinners to be good, he commanded them to repent. A sinner can't be good. You can't tell a child of the devil to be good. Why would anyone who really loves others leave them in a false religion and make being good be sufficient? I never once in my post addressed Catholicism or what your beliefs are, I addressed the article. Why exactly are you offended and accusing me of judging your beliefs? As far as "me"... I think very soberly of myself when I think of what I was redeemed from. I am righteous in Christ Jesus, not of myself because my righteousness is as a filthy rag. You can't call a true follower of Christ, a son or daughter of God equal to a sinner in the eyes of God. I don't say that because I feel I'm better than a sinner. I had many days doing things I cringe to think of now... Jesus' message was "Repent because the Kingdom is at hand". That's what we need to be telling the world. Thats love. Please don't do what you accused me of and put words in my mouth or "mince" my words.. Have a great day.

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

I re-read it and re-read it, I'm in agreement with you @MrsHaseeb

I beg to differ we are NOT all children of God,

John 8
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God

 

[MrsHaseeb]

This is why we have "For Catholics" threads...because people don't read critically and end up misinterpreting, misguiding and accusing something as unbiblical. Forgive this if it seems harsh...the judgments here against what he said are equally, if not more, harsh. He never said every man will be saved in the end...but that mankind is redeemed. Unless you read catholic documents, please don't judge from a place of not knowing. It's unfair. Read the entire quote. Just as you all don't wish for someone to take your words and mince them, taking them out of context, so you should not do to others.

Redemption:

atonement

delivery from sin

Are you saying that this was NOT accomplished by Jesus dying on the cross in His eternal sacrifice?

John 19:30
When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Or are you angry that Pope Francis is saying considering you all on the same level as all mankind and that you are not intrinsically exceptional for having found Jesus? He finds us...He created all mankind and all are His children. All do not know His way, however. Man must be born again. That's by a decision. We do not know when any man makes that final decision and therefore, we should not judge who will be saved in the end. I don't take too kindly to people mushing up entire quotes for ulterior motives of spitting at our Holy Father nor at catholics the world over. What's funny here...because it was taken out of context, you glossed over the very thing he was talking about:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Wednesday's Reading:
Gospel Mk 9:38-40

John said to Jesus,
“Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name,
and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.”
Jesus replied, “Do not prevent him.
There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name
who can at the same time speak ill of me.
For whoever is not against us is for us.”

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Pope Francis' statement on the Gospel of Mark 9:39-40

Wednesday’s Gospel speaks to us about the disciples who prevented a person from outside their group from doing good. “They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of ​​possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”:

When the apostles rebuked the man for casting out devils in Jesus' name because he wasn't of their company please note he was doing it in the name (authority) of Jesus. Only Jesus can give power over the enemy so this person was obviously still a disciple of Christ although he didn't travel with the other disciples. You can't apply this to people who practice Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc because they have another God. Jesus Christ is not their Lord. You can't be in covenant with the devil and serve Christ too.

 

[JaneBond007]

MrsHaseeeb, the redemption stands as it is...you either take it or refuse it. It has been made.

I'm referring to the charge was made against Pope Francis' statement. I'm saying that this is why we fought to have a catholic forum and ended up with threads to not have to continually prove that we are biblical when I didn't accuse anyone of being proud...but put yourselves in our place. We are not pagans, we are not unbiblical, we don't tell lies about the gospels nor scripture, we don't have traditions that are not sacred (Holy Spirit) and handed down from the apostles who were commissioned by Jesus Himself. We do not have a false religion and we don't mislead anybody to hell.

I'm practically crying at this point for this rude and insulting way in which we are constantly bludgeoned on this site. I understand the misunderstanding...but honestly, THIS IS UNJUST AND UNFAIR. A quote was taken fully out of context and you all are accusing the Church that Jesus instituted as wrong. The gates of hell will not destroy our Church. Take that up with Jesus who said it. Talk about putting words into people's mouths...of all people...against Pope Francis. You get your wish...never stepping foot in this anti-catholic "christian" forum again. The arrogant ignorance is very off-putting to many people who lurk in this forum. A bit of advice, know what you are talking about before you falsely accuse an entire body of Christ. Just plain ridiculous. Nothing has changed, I see.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

MrsHaseeeb, the redemption stands as it is...you either take it or refuse it. It has been made.

I'm referring to the charge was made against Pope Francis' statement. I'm saying that this is why we fought to have a catholic forum and ended up with threads to not have to continually prove that we are biblical when I didn't accuse anyone of being proud...but put yourselves in our place. We are not pagans, we are not unbiblical, we don't tell lies about the gospels nor scripture, we don't have traditions that are not sacred (Holy Spirit) and handed down from the apostles who were commissioned by Jesus Himself. We do not have a false religion and we don't mislead anybody to hell.

I'm practically crying at this point for this rude and insulting way in which we are constantly bludgeoned on this site. I understand the misunderstanding...but honestly, THIS IS UNJUST AND UNFAIR. A quote was taken fully out of context and you all are accusing the Church that Jesus instituted as wrong. The gates of hell will not destroy our Church. Take that up with Jesus who said it. Talk about putting words into people's mouths...of all people...against Pope Francis. You get your wish...never stepping foot in this anti-catholic "christian" forum again. The arrogant ignorance is very off-putting to many people who lurk in this forum. A bit of advice, know what you are talking about before you falsely accuse an entire body of Christ. Just plain ridiculous. Nothing has changed, I see.

JaneBond007... My sincerest apologies if you took what I said that way but I'm not at all sure how you took all of that from what I said... I never once bashed Catholicism or your Pope in my post and it wasn't meant to come off as proud either. After reading over my posts I'm still not sure how you took it that way..

 

[Nice & Wavy]

The scriptures are explicit regarding our salvation in Christ Jesus. IF the pope declared that all are saved, then that was not spoken correctly in the light of scripture. If he meant something else, then it should be clarified by him, what he actually meant in order that confusion will not take place.

I highlighted and enlarged the scripture that specifically says what we were before Christ Jesus and how the blood of Christ brought us near to Him.

Ephesians 2
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved ), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God ; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called " Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands - 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

^^this is one of my favorite scriptures

Ephesians 2:13
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Text from page http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/201...counter_is_the_foundation_of_peace/en1-694445
of the Vatican Radio website
​

Now that I have read what the pope has said, more than 3 times...he has indicated that ALL MANKIND has been redeemed. This is not so. If it was the case, then we would not need a savior in Jesus the Christ. The Bible tells us that His desire is for "all to come to repentance and for no one to perish." This implies that we must repent in order for the blood of Christ to cover us from sin so that we won't be separate from God for eternity. It's only by this 'repentance' that our lives will be changed for the Glory of God.

I pray that there will not be any divisions here in the CF....we all need each other because the days are evil.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

^^this is one of my favorite scriptures

Ephesians 2:13
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Mine as well. I have been studying Ephesians for a while now, and it's important for us to understand Ephesians because of this very thing that has taken place in this thread today.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

Now that I have read what the pope has said, more than 3 times...he has indicated that ALL MANKIND has been redeemed. This is not so. If it was the case, then we would not need a savior in Jesus the Christ. The Bible tells us that His desire is for "all to come to repentance and for no one to perish." This implies that we must repent in order for the blood of Christ to cover us from sin so that we won't be separate from God for eternity. It's only by this 'repentance' that our lives will be changed for the Glory of God.

I pray that there will not be any divisions here in the CF....we all need each other because the days are evil.

Sis, that's what I was addressing was the false teaching about all mankind being saved and it being a duty of us all to be "good"... I certainly wasn't attacking anyone. I simply countered the unscriptural teaching.

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

Amen!

It certainly is appropriate for this thread.

Ephesians because of this very thing that has taken place in this thread today.

 

[sweetvi]

Ephesians was the scripture I thought of after reading that statement as well thank you

 

[Nice & Wavy]

Sis, that's what I was addressing was the false teaching about all mankind being saved and it being a duty of us all to be "good"... I certainly wasn't attacking anyone. I simply countered the unscriptural teaching.

Yes, I know. I wish that it wasn't taken personally by JaneBond007 because I know what you were saying wasn't a direct attack to catholism but that you were addressing the "good" would cause us to be saved.

I'm learning that language is not fundamental. I believe that when we speak (or type text) that it can be taken out of context to the hearer/reader. I am learning to be quick to hear/read and slow to wrath. I am learning that we all have our own interpretations of what the Word of God says, but...we need to understand the Word in full and sometimes that can be difficult because of what we were taught/believe. I'm learning that I am growing continually daily....I will never arrive in my walk with Christ until I meet Him face to face.

My prayer for all of us in the Christianity Forum is that we all come to the place of forgiveness in whatever manner we offend. We are all imperfect, even though we are Christ Followers. I know that satan wants nothing else but for this forum to be dissolved....I see it being attacked daily, not just in this forum, but in the 'other' forums as well. I see our 'good' here being evil spoken of and it doesn't bother me anymore because I know that there are those who choose to live a life apart from God and when the truth is made known, or as a mirror to those without Christ, then there is a defensiveness that arises because of it. Jesus is absolute Lord!

We MUST remain as Christ desires...to be steadfast and immovable in our faith and when we speak/type or whatever, do it in love. I am FIRST to say that I am wrong for many of the things I have said/typed here in this forum. I have gotten angry and lashed out to some. I have been on the defensive and didn't want to hear anything from anyone because I was right, and the Holy Spirit brought correction to me, where I had mucus running out of my nose because I had to repent of how I was feeling about some of the people on this forum.

We all must grow, because the days are evil. We all must forgive, because of Him who is faithful is coming soon...and He desires to find His Bride without spot or blemish. I want to be all that He wants me to be because I don't want to be without Him....EVER!

May the Lord bless each and every one of you and may His light shine upon your hearts today!

 

[MrsHaseeb]

Yes, I know. I wish that it wasn't taken personally by JaneBond700 because I know what you were saying wasn't a direct attack to catholism but that you were addressing the "good" would cause us to be saved.

I'm learning that language is not fundamental. I believe that when we speak (or type text) that it can be taken out of context to the hearer/reader. I am learning to be quick to hear/read and slow to wrath. I am learning that we all have our own interpretations of what the Word of God says, but...we need to understand the Word in full and sometimes that can be difficult because of what we were taught/believe. I'm learning that I am growing continually daily....I will never arrive in my walk with Christ until I meet Him face to face.

My prayer for all of us in the Christianity Forum is that we all come to the place of forgiveness in whatever manner we offend. We are all imperfect, even though we are Christ Followers. I know that satan wants nothing else but for this forum to be dissolved....I see it being attacked daily, not just in this forum, but in the 'other' forums as well. I see our 'good' here being evil spoken of and it doesn't bother me anymore because I know that there are those who choose to live a life apart from God and when the truth is made known, or as a mirror to those without Christ, then there is a defensiveness that arises because of it. Jesus is absolute Lord!

We MUST remain as Christ desires...to be steadfast and immovable in our faith and when we speak/type or whatever, do it in love. I am FIRST to say that I am wrong for many of the things I have said/typed here in this forum. I have gotten angry and lashed out to some. I have been on the defensive and didn't want to hear anything from anyone because I was right, and the Holy Spirit brought correction to me, where I had snot running out of my nose because I had to repent of how I was feeling about some of the people on this forum.

I ASK THAT ALL THE PEOPLE THAT I HAVE OFFENDED IN THIS FORUM, PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR SINNING AGAINST THE LORD BY HOLDING ANGER AND BITTERNESS TOWARDS YOU AND THE WAY I HAVE SPOKEN/ACTED TOWARDS YOU. IT IS NOT OF GOD AND IT IS NOT A HOLY ATTRIBUTE. I RECOGNIZE THAT I WAS WRONG AND I HAVE REPENTED AND I PRAY THAT YOU WOULD FORGIVE ME FOR IT. I CHOOSE THIS DAY TO LOVE AND NOT HOLD UNFORGIVENESS TOWARDS ANYONE HERE AND ESPECIALLY MYSELF. I CHOOSE TO MOVE FORWARD IN THE MINISTRY THAT THE LORD HAS CALLED ME TO.

We all must grow, because the days are evil. We all must forgive, because of Him who is faithful is coming soon...and He desires to find His Bride without spot or blemish. I want to be all that He wants me to be because I don't want to be without Him....EVER!

May the Lord bless each and every one of you and may His light shine upon your hearts today!

Amen.. I agree. It is difficult to fully understand tone when reading. The hostility I think comes in from previous threads getting heated. That certainly was not my intention this time around. Its easier to get offended if you've been offended by a person in the past. I understand and don't mind apologizing because I need the grace and mercy of Jesus just like everyone else. However, we as Christians are instructed to discern/prove all things. Is it Christian behavior to see erroneous teaching and not address it when it could lead someone astray? Love means addressing those things, which I tried to do without attack. It wasn't addressed to attack a Pope or a church, it was done for those who could read it and be deceived by it.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

Amen.. I agree. It is difficult to fully understand tone when reading. The hostility I think comes in from previous threads getting heated. That certainly was not my intention this time around. Its easier to get offended if you've been offended by a person in the past. I understand and don't mind apologizing because I need the grace and mercy of Jesus just like everyone else. However, we as Christians are instructed to discern/prove all things. Is it Christian behavior to see erroneous teaching and not address it when it could lead someone astray? Love means addressing those things, which I tried to do without attack. It wasn't addressed to attack a Pope or a church, it was done for those who could read it and be deceived by it.

I don't think I implied that in my post, but you are right....we must address erroneous teaching...I do it on a daily basis. It's important for us to teach the Gospel correctly. I did state in my post that because of belief/teachings, there are those who may say something out of context and we who are mature in Christ, should do it in love without hurting the other person...(i'm not saying this is what you did...I am speaking in general). Sometimes we say/type things that do hurt others and that was the message I was conveying in my post as to what I have done to those on this forum. I'm learning to teach the truth in a way that won't offend personally, but will get the point across because as I teach the truth in this manner, the Holy Spirit brings the correction to that person. My ministry is to reach souls....I'm trying to do it the way Jesus did it....and I know He had to tell the Pharisees and Sadducees in that day how He really thought of them because they were saying they were leaders/teachers in that time and we know those who call themselves that have a greater responsibility. There are those who don't call themselves leaders/teachers and give a word and that word may not line up with the truth of the gospel, that's when we are to help in a way that will help them understand and not turn away from the truth. This is why we are here...this is why the Lord has given us these gifts.

 

[Galadriel]

The Catholic Church teaches that God wills for all men to be saved--this is known as the universal salvific will of God. In other words, God doesn't predestine anyone to go to Hell, and there's no one that God is unwilling to save.

The Church isn't meant to be an insular group where we sit on our hands and say, "We're God's chosen! Goodbye, world, you're all damned!" We are told to go throughout the world and bring everyone *into* the Church--to make disciples of all men.

We believe that up until the moment of your death, you have the opportunity and potential to convert and turn to God.

This is what Pope Francis is referring to.

I think he lacks the finesse of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI (he would've explained it all A to Z so there was no misunderstanding), but I'm used to "Catholic lingo," so I got what he was saying.

How are we saved? By faith through grace. We must persevere in our faith until our deaths, and if we separate ourselves from God through sin, we must repent. This is all made possible by the sacrificial death of Christ. As He has risen from the dead, we too have hope and faith in our resurrection.

When Pope Francis says to do good, he is not advocating atonement or redemption via human works (a heresy that has already been condemned by the Catholic Church). What he is saying to the non-Christian, the atheist, is to do good, so that they can be open to God's grace and conversion. It's MUCH easier to find and meet Jesus Christ when you are searching for Him and trying to do right versus when you're openly rejecting Him and doing evil.

I am a Christian convert. I didn't grow up in any particular religion and was quite ignorant of religion in general. What led me to Christ was visiting church with my Catholic friend, participating in church charities and events with her, and reading the Bible and the Catechism--these are all good works. God can use good works to draw us out of ourselves and show us His grace, so that we can go deeper, start asking the deep questions, the hard questions, and coming to Christ in faith. If I had been partying and drinking and engaging in sinful behavior, I imagine it may have taken longer or would've been more difficult for me to turn to God. When a person hardens his heart in sin, he clings to it, instead of God. The prompting by the pope to "do good," is to plant the seeds of the first steps of one's conversion, to at least opening one's self up to God's grace that is waiting.

An atheist is clearly not on the same footing as a Christian in the state of grace--but both are loved by God and are being called to Him. I think this is the gist of the message. We humans often give up on each other "You made your bed, now lie in it..." etc, etc....Pope Francis is saying that God never gives up on us, and there is still hope up until the moment of death.

I understand the alarm some of you feel at Pope Francis' words, and I wished he (or those in the position to do so) would have taken care to put his words into better context, because certain words or phrases we use in Catholicism will mean something different to a non-Catholic or a non-Christian.

I do not believe a person is de facto saved just by "being good" (especially since Scripture and human experience teach us that no one is truly good). We all sin, and we don't have the power or authority to erase our sin or make ourselves holy. We must come to God in repentance and pray, "O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Your Mercy."

Also, it's important to understand that in Catholicism, salvation isn't a one-time event. We'll look at you with a raised eyebrow if you ask us, "Are you saved?" or "When were you saved?" To the Catholic, salvation is a process, and we will answer, "I am being saved."

To the Catholic, salvation consists of two parts: Justification and Sanctification

Justification is the atonement of Christ's death on the Cross being applied to us, so that we are "not guilty" and forgiven our sins. Sanctification also includes the merits of Christ, where God transforms our interior souls so that we grow in holiness and purity, and closer to Him and further away from sin/evil.

I hope this clarify things.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

I don't think I implied that in my post, but you are right....we must address erroneous teaching...I do it on a daily basis. It's important for us to teach the Gospel correctly. I did state in my post that because of belief/teachings, there are those who may say something out of context and we who are mature in Christ, should do it in love without hurting the other person...(i'm not saying this is what you did...I am speaking in general). Sometimes we say/type things that do hurt others and that was the message I was conveying in my post as to what I have done to those on this forum. I'm learning to teach the truth in a way that won't offend personally, but will get the point across because as I teach the truth in this manner, the Holy Spirit brings the correction to that person. My ministry is to reach souls....I'm trying to do it the way Jesus did it....and I know He had to tell the Pharisees and Sadducees in that day how He really thought of them because they were saying they were leaders/teachers in that time and we know those who call themselves that have a greater responsibility. There are those who don't call themselves leaders/teachers and give a word and that word may not line up with the truth of the gospel, that's when we are to help in a way that will help them understand and not turn away from the truth. This is why we are here...this is why the Lord has given us these gifts.

No sis, I wasn't addressing that part to you to imply that you said we shouldn't address it. It was really for JaneBond007 because I hate she feels attacked. I was hoping she'd read it

 

[Nice & Wavy]

No sis, I wasn't addressing that part to you to imply that you said we shouldn't address it. It was really for JaneBond007 because I hate she feels attacked. I was hoping she'd read it

Thanks sis...

My work is done here in this thread...see ya'll in another one! God bless you and I do hope you continue to have a wonderful day!

 

[Galadriel]

Thanks sis...

My work is done here in this thread...see ya'll in another one! God bless you and I do hope you continue to have a wonderful day!

Nice & Wavy before you go, I hope you read my post here .

 

[MrsHaseeb]

The Catholic Church teaches that God wills for all men to be saved--this is known as the universal salvific will of God. In other words, God doesn't predestine anyone to go to Hell, and there's no one that God is unwilling to save.

The Church isn't meant to be an insular group where we sit on our hands and say, "We're God's chosen! Goodbye, world, you're all damned!" We are told to go throughout the world and bring everyone *into* the Church--to make disciples of all men.

We believe that up until the moment of your death, you have the opportunity and potential to convert and turn to God.

This is what Pope Francis is referring to.

I think he lacks the finesse of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI (he would've explained it all A to Z so there was no misunderstanding), but I'm used to "Catholic lingo," so I got what he was saying.

How are we saved? By faith through grace. We must persevere in our faith until our deaths, and if we separate ourselves from God through sin, we must repent. This is all made possible by the sacrificial death of Christ. As He has risen from the dead, we too have hope and faith in our resurrection.

When Pope Francis says to do good, he is not advocating atonement or redemption via human works (a heresy that has already been condemned by the Catholic Church). What he is saying to the non-Christian, the atheist, is to do good, so that they can be open to God's grace and conversion. It's MUCH easier to find and meet Jesus Christ when you are searching for Him and trying to do right versus when you're openly rejecting Him and doing evil.

I am a Christian convert. I didn't grow up in any particular religion and was quite ignorant of religion in general. What led me to Christ was visiting church with my Catholic friend, participating in church charities and events with her, and reading the Bible and the Catechism--these are all good works. God can use good works to draw us out of ourselves and show us His grace, so that we can go deeper, start asking the deep questions, the hard questions, and coming to Christ in faith. If I had been partying and drinking and engaging in sinful behavior, I imagine it may have taken longer or would've been more difficult for me to turn to God. When a person hardens his heart in sin, he clings to it, instead of God. The prompting by the pope to "do good," is to plant the seeds of the first steps of one's conversion, to at least opening one's self up to God's grace that is waiting.

An atheist is clearly not on the same footing as a Christian in the state of grace--but both are loved by God and are being called to Him. I think this is the gist of the message. We humans often give up on each other "You made your bed, now lie in it..." etc, etc....Pope Francis is saying that God never gives up on us, and there is still hope up until the moment of death.

I understand the alarm some of you feel at Pope Francis' words, and I wished he (or those in the position to do so) would have taken care to put his words into better context, because certain words or phrases we use in Catholicism will mean something different to a non-Catholic or a non-Christian.

I do not believe a person is de facto saved just by "being good" (especially since Scripture and human experience teach us that no one is truly good). We all sin, and we don't have the power or authority to erase our sin or make ourselves holy. We must come to God in repentance and pray, "O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Your Mercy."

Also, it's important to understand that in Catholicism, salvation isn't a one-time event. We'll look at you with a raised eyebrow if you ask us, "Are you saved?" or "When were you saved?" To the Catholic, salvation is a process, and we will answer, "I am being saved."

To the Catholic, salvation consists of two parts: Justification and Sanctification

Justification is the atonement of Christ's death on the Cross being applied to us, so that we are "not guilty" and forgiven our sins. Sanctification also includes the merits of Christ, where God transforms our interior souls so that we grow in holiness and purity, and closer to Him and further away from sin/evil.

I hope this clarify things.

Yes, it clarified a lot. Thank you for putting as gracefully as you did. But I don't see what you said in anything he said...

 

[Galadriel]

Yes, it clarified a lot. Thank you for putting as gracefully as you did. But I don't see what you said in anything he said...

MrsHaseeb that's why I think context is important (for both sides). Outsiders need to take the time to understand, and the pope needs to be more aware that unless he provides MORE context, that some people (even well-meaning people) may have the wrong impression of his words.

 

[JaneBond007]

@Galadriel

Actually, I don't think we need to tone down our lingo to appeal to anyone else but to speak the truth per the truth that within our faith guided by the H-ly Spirit. Our catechism, the Doctors of the Faith and scripture are there for personal review. If people will read those before making false judgments is actually the fair question. We make definitive statements and do not need to be apologetic about them. Context is very important, as you point out, and I add that it is, especially when charges of untruth are made against the very one quoted as unbiblical. That is the height of dishonesty, imho, to deliberately avoid the entire speech that could be compared to scripture. Thank you for clarifying his statement in this thread...I'm reading this post as my last and this will serve as my final contribution, esp. on this subject.



Here's a catholic apologist's take one the differences between redemption and salvation. He puts it very well:

Michelle Arnold's Avatar
Michelle Arnold Michelle Arnold is offline
Catholic Answers Apologist

Join Date: May 3, 2004
Posts: 4,808
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What's the difference between redemption and salvation?
Basically, redemption is collective and salvation is individual. By his passion, death, and resurrection, Christ redeemed humanity collectively from slavery to sin and from the debt of punishment mankind -- as a whole -- owed due to sin. Each and every person, Christian or non-Christian, is redeemed because he is a member of the human race.

Salvation is the application of redemption to individuals. Although a member of redeemed humanity, and therefore himself redeemed, a person can freely choose to deliberately reject the graces won for him by Christ and go to hell.

 

[Galadriel]

Another good analysis:

http://orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2...cis-say-everyone-will-be-saved-by-doing-good/

Enormous theological ignorance and bad reading exploded onto the scene this week:

Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

(An earlier version had this headline: “Pope Francis Says All Who Do Good Are Redeemed – Atheists included.”)

(Huffington Post) Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.

[...]

Of course, not all Christians believe that those who don’t believe will be redeemed, and the Pope’s words may spark memories of the deep divisions from the Protestant reformation over the belief in redemption through grace versus redemption through works.

That supposedly correctly interprets remarks made by Pope Francis:

“They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of ​​possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation.”

[...]

“The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can… “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!”.. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

First, I should note that I do not think any Orthodox Christian should have any problem with what Francis is quoted as saying here. Why?

Well, first, this is not universalism. It might appear to be so if you don’t know that there is a difference in traditional Christian theology between being saved and being redeemed. The redemption that Christ accomplished through the incarnation, cross and resurrection was for all of human nature, and so it is quite correct to say “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ.” Redemption is something that happens for human nature, which is why all will be resurrected in the end and why all are capable of doing good.

But that is not the same thing as saying that all will be saved, and it certainly isn’t saying that everyone will be saved by doing good. It’s not even saying that everyone will be redeemed by doing good. Salvation, in distinction from redemption, is centered on the individual person, not on the whole of human nature. Salvation is what the individual person does with the redemption that Christ has given to all, and it involves much more than simply doing good.

But Francis holds out the possibility here for an encounter, that we may “meet one another” when good is done, by whoever it may be done. And he is absolutely correct. All good is from God, so even an atheist—even an anti-theist—who does good is in some sense participating in God’s goodness by virtue of his redemption by Christ and remaining created according to the image of God. But that doesn’t mean he is saved.

The headline for this piece and much of the writing has this all quite backwards. The capability of doing good is an effect of redemption, not its cause, and salvation is also another possibility because of that redemption. Someone may be redeemed and not be saved. Someone may be redeemed and not do good. Someone may also be redeemed, do good and yet not be saved.

The writer and many readers are not only theologically illiterate, but they are not even reading what Francis said. One does not need to know that redemption and salvation are two different things to see that his emphasis here is on who is capable of doing good—not who is redeemed or saved—and that he’s not at all saying that redemption or salvation are the result of doing good.

The lessons here are twofold: know your terms and read what is actually said.

 

[Galadriel]

And another one:
http://orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2...cis-say-everyone-will-be-saved-by-doing-good/

“Pope Francis Says All Who Do Good are Redeemed – Atheists Included”

It takes some doing to get so many layers of complicated errors all folded into 11 words, but if anybody can do it, it’s HuffPo.

Let’s unpack this elaborate confection of blunders.

1. The first blunder is that what the Pope said–what he actually said, not what the headline reports–is “news” in the sense that it is some sort of startling change in Catholic teaching. It ain’t.

2. Pope Francis does not say that “all who do good are redeemed”. The reason he does not say this is because people–like HuffPo–are all too ready to assume that our redemption depends on us doing good. In fact, all who do good, and all who do evil, and all saints, and all Nazis, and pirates, and Communists and Mormons, Swedenborgians, and Satanists, and plumbers, and students who are getting Fs, and little kids and old coots, and profoundly brain-damaged folk and really brilliant scientists, and tall, and fat, and short people, and Muslims, and atheists, and Jews, and Buddhists and everybody else with a pulse are redeemed. Stalin is redeemed along with St. Damien of Molokai, Jack the Ripper and St Francis of Assisi are both redeemed. That’s not me. That’s the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

605 At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God’s love excludes no one: “So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.” He affirms that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many”; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us. The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: “There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.”

In short, the reason we are redeemed–all of us without any exception whatsoever, even Hitler and Judas Iscariot–is that Jesus Christ died for every human being without any exception whatsoever. That has nothing to do with our “doing good”. It has to do with the overwhelming generosity of God to us even when we are not good at all–even when we are pounding nails through his hands and feet.

While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man–though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die. But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. – Romans 5:6-8

So the offer of salvation is extended to all–including atheists, not because of our goodness, but because of God’s grace. However, that does not mean it is a slam dunk that the offer will be accepted by all.

3. Francis *does* say that atheists are capable of doing good, for the simple reason that they are and always have been able to do good by virtue of the fact that the natural law is accessible to any human being. That is true but not news–except to Huffpo.

So at the end of the day, the pope said… well, what the Church has pretty much always said. Which is kind of the job description.

 

[Galadriel]

Thanks JB for the great quote provided below. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was saying "tone down our lingo." What I meant was that when you know you have a worldwide audience, it helps to be more specific and defined when using certain words or phrases, especially if groups X, Y and Z have different understandings of those phrases.

We already see what kind of confusion has resulted, esp. with the secular media who are ready to run away with anything.

As you pointed out, as Catholics, we understand the Catholic definition of "redemption" and "salvation," as well as the difference between the two. Most Protestants don't have that distinction or have a different definition. So, when they hear these words being used, they are using their frame of reference to interpret Pope Francis' words.

@Galadriel

Actually, I don't think we need to tone down our lingo to appeal to anyone else but to speak the truth per the truth that within our faith guided by the H-ly Spirit. Our catechism, the Doctors of the Faith and scripture are there for personal review. If people will read those before making false judgments is actually the fair question. We make definitive statements and do not need to be apologetic about them. Context is very important, as you point out, and I add that it is, especially when charges of untruth are made against the very one quoted as unbiblical. That is the height of dishonesty, imho, to deliberately avoid the entire speech that could be compared to scripture. Thank you for clarifying his statement in this thread...I'm reading this post as my last and this will serve as my final contribution, esp. on this subject.



Here's a catholic apologist's take one the differences between redemption and salvation. He puts it very well:

Michelle Arnold's Avatar
Michelle Arnold Michelle Arnold is offline
Catholic Answers Apologist

Join Date: May 3, 2004
Posts: 4,808
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: What's the difference between redemption and salvation?
Basically, redemption is collective and salvation is individual. By his passion, death, and resurrection, Christ redeemed humanity collectively from slavery to sin and from the debt of punishment mankind -- as a whole -- owed due to sin. Each and every person, Christian or non-Christian, is redeemed because he is a member of the human race.

Salvation is the application of redemption to individuals. Although a member of redeemed humanity, and therefore himself redeemed, a person can freely choose to deliberately reject the graces won for him by Christ and go to hell.