Should Churches Confront Westboro Baptist?

[aribell]

The "hacktivist" group Anonymous has targeted the Westboro Baptist Church--hacking its Twitter account and releasing the personal information of members to to the public. Article here: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57...westboro-baptist-church-after-newtown-threat/

They also published a video denouncing Westboro for hypocrisy and hatefulness, promising to take them down: http://vimeo.com/55671721

In an interview, the spokeswoman for WBC reiterated the church's message that they are simply proclaiming the judgment of God for the nation's sins (namely gay marriage and abortion). She also said they would continue picketing wherever they felt they needed to get that message out, including the funerals in CT.

James Dobson of Focus on the Family also received backlash for making the following statement:

“And a lot of these things are happening around us, and somebody is going to get mad at me for saying what I am about to say right now, but I am going to give you my honest opinion: I think we have turned our back on the Scripture and on God Almighty and I think he has allowed judgment to fall upon us. I think that’s what’s going on.”
Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/443204/jam...g-to-god-judging-america/#Ep35BdxiTzCjXE23.99

We know that sin is real. We know that God's judgment on sin is real. And yet we also know that the Day of Judgment has not yet come. We know that there is a place for mercy and compassion and also a place for prophecy to the nations. Where do we as Christians find the balance between cruelly dishonoring victims and service members, and denying the reality of sin's consequences? Where are the real prophets?

 

[MrsHaseeb]

The picketing is foolish and unnecessary but I'm going to have to agree with their views. Picketing is not going to make anyone repent though and it's certainly not going to help the world have a more favorable view of the church. My heart was so heavy when I learned about the recent school shooting in CT and everyone everywhere immediately tells you to start praying. I battled with myself regarding what to pray. If I were honest with myself I'd have to ask myself how many of those parents were true followers of Christ and then I'd ask myself what kind of prayers need to be offered up. I'm not saying that any parent anywhere deserves to lose a child but if these people are living in sin and turning their back on God, should I be praying for Jesus to comfort them? No because the Holy Spirit is the comforter and there is no comfort where his presence is rejected. We have become so politically correct that we forget what the bible says and begin to function from our (soulish) emotions and not from the Spirit. We have taken on the worlds idea of love. So I realized that the prayer that I needed to pray was that God would draw these people to himself and then they would find comfort. The Bible tells us that there is no rest for the wicked and the way of trasgessors is hard so unless repentance happens, there can be no peace. These things that are going on happen as a result of God's wrath and the fact that people expect to have love and peace yet leave the source of love and peace (Jesus) out of the picture. Well it doesn't work that way. I am praying to have true balance in my prayer life and not pray soulish prayers. Reading these books that explains the difference between soulish and (holy) spiritual has made me totally conscious of the way I pray when I am praying with my understanding. If we decide to be honest with ourselves as Christians why don't we ask how many kids were probably in Sodom and Gomorrah, or how many kids perished in the flood. We have to stop being emotional and pretending God is this big ball of love that never punishes as a result of sin and wickedness. The Bible tells me otherwise. I did pray for the people and I was truly heart broken and sympathetic but I'm sure my prayer sounded nothing like most of the prayers that went up that day.

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[Galadriel]

I think we (as well as the media) should ignore WBC and not feed into their horrible displays. Shame on WBC.

That said, I think when God punishes our nation for our sins, we will know without a doubt that it is from on high. For hundreds of years this has been referred to as The Great Chastisement.

 

[Shimmie]

The "hacktivist" group Anonymous has targeted the Westboro Baptist Church--hacking its Twitter account and releasing the personal information of members to to the public. Article here: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57...westboro-baptist-church-after-newtown-threat/

They also published a video denouncing Westboro for hypocrisy and hatefulness, promising to take them down: http://vimeo.com/55671721

In an interview, the spokeswoman for WBC reiterated the church's message that they are simply proclaiming the judgment of God for the nation's sins (namely gay marriage and abortion). She also said they would continue picketing wherever they felt they needed to get that message out, including the funerals in CT.

James Dobson of Focus on the Family also received backlash for making the following statement:

We know that sin is real. We know that God's judgment on sin is real. And yet we also know that the Day of Judgment has not yet come. We know that there is a place for mercy and compassion and also a place for prophecy to the nations. Where do we as Christians find the balance between cruelly dishonoring victims and service members, and denying the reality of sin's consequences? Where are the real prophets?

What happen in CT isn't going to convict the true ones responsible for the sins of this nation. Those were innocent lives who have / had no part in promoting, legislating, voting, paying for the sins of this nation which have become outrageous.

True judgement has to fall upon those behind the sins, supporting the sins, and promoting the sins as well as committing them. That's when God will have their attention.

Westboro Church is not making any sense. Picketing a fallen soldier's funeral, and now threats of picketing the funerals of these innocent children who have harmed no one... their logic is illogic and just as sinful as the sins they are picketing against. They need to picket the ones responsible, then they'll have a true case. As of now, they are cowards and bullies singling out those who are mourning and in no condition to fight back.

 

[daydreem2876]

yes... even if it only making a silent human wall of believers in front of the protesters to shield them front those who are grieving.

 

[auparavant]

James Dobson...sigh. I remember a few years ago when he said that Indian people are basically ignorant and that we deserve alcohol addiction since it's our fault..something to that effect. That's not verbatim...but he had an obvious disdain. I never listened to him after that.

Well, where was G-d's punishment in the 1600's, 1700's? Heck, 1492? 1865? 1950? 1964? What did it consist of since the "people" had G-d in their midst (supposedly) back then? This imperialist bunch of "christians?"

Westboro is WRONG and is wrongfully utilizing the name of Jesus, as most of the christians and society did back in the afore-mentioned time periods. There is but one truth and this nation if not christian. Never has been. Oh, there are individuals who love Jesus but this is not a christian nation. With that said, I think it's high time that churches openly condemn the hatred of the Westboro group. I hope their buildings burn down and that they face financial destruction and are NEVER again able to regroup in any form. Well, those are just my personal feelings. My son says, "turn the other cheek." The Hebrew in me says that cheek is the one I'm sitting on.

People, especially people of the scriptures, should always stand up for justice. They should always voice concern and opposition to the evil around them.

 

[Shimmie]

The picketing is foolish and unnecessary but I'm going to have to agree with their views. Picketing is not going to make anyone repent though and it's certainly not going to help the world have a more favorable view of the church.

My heart was so heavy when I learned about the recent school shooting in CT and everyone everywhere immediately tells you to start praying. I battled with myself regarding what to pray.

If I were honest with myself I'd have to ask myself how many of those parents were true followers of Christ and then I'd ask myself what kind of prayers need to be offered up. I'm not saying that any parent anywhere deserves to lose a child but if these people are living in sin and turning their back on God, should I be praying for Jesus to comfort them? No because the Holy Spirit is the comforter and there is no comfort where his presence is rejected.

We have become so politically correct that we forget what the bible says and begin to function from our (soulish) emotions and not from the Spirit.

We have taken on the worlds idea of love. So I realized that the prayer that I needed to pray was that God would draw these people to himself and then they would find comfort. The Bible tells us that there is no rest for the wicked and the way of trasgessors is hard so unless repentance happens, there can be no peace.

These things that are going on happen as a result of God's wrath and the fact that people expect to have love and peace yet leave the source of love and peace (Jesus) out of the picture.

Well it doesn't work that way. I am praying to have true balance in my prayer life and not pray soulish prayers. Reading these books that explains the difference between soulish and (holy) spiritual has made me totally conscious of the way I pray when I am praying with my understanding.

If we decide to be honest with ourselves as Christians why don't we ask how many kids were probably in Sodom and Gomorrah, or how many kids perished in the flood. We have to stop being emotional and pretending God is this big ball of love that never punishes as a result of sin and wickedness. The Bible tells me otherwise.

I did pray for the people and I was truly heart broken and sympathetic but I'm sure my prayer sounded nothing like most of the prayers that went up that day.

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I understand what you're sharing. You're right about prayers of emotion, for how can one not be emotional over any harm that comes to a child? Children are defenseless and deserve to be protected.

These are my thoughts, Angel.

When God punished Sodom/Gomorrah and when He brought on the flood, He judgment was direct and to the exact source, the ones responsible for the rebellious behaviour. He didn't skirt around it. In this country, the ones making and supporting the laws of rebellion are the ones responsible and the ones who should be facing judgment, not the innocent babies who were murdered in cold blood.

It's the legislators and those who back them who are putting these laws into being who should bare the judgment, not those children. I'm just being real here. Otherwise, folks won't get it. They'll just continue in their rebellion.

I realized what the words Politically Correct means. It's total rebellion against God. That's exactly what it is, ignoring God and doing what folks want to do, mocking Him.

It's time to see Congress hit with an earthquake, or a taste of the wind, saving those whose hearts are for God. Perhaps a little shaking will shake some sense into them who think they can legalize sin and not bear the judgment for it.

I pray that my post doesn't come off as harsh or vindictive. There's no anger in my heart; just saddness that when tragedies like this occur, it's the innocent ones who suffer. Those who are the sinful and rebellious are the ones who unaffected. Sure, they have a brief moment of charitable condolences, but at the end of the day, they're 'over it' and have moved on to continue in their sin and rebellion.

These folks at WBC are misdirected. Their protesting should be directed at the source, not the victims.

MrsHaseeb,

 

[Shimmie]

Westboro is WRONG and is wrongfully utilizing the name of Jesus, .

Totally agreed...


BTW: Your son is adorable. Our children always remind us of God's wisdom.

 

[Shimmie]

........................................

 

[auparavant]

That's a pic I snippeted off the net of a little girl. LOL. But isn't that the question we read about all the time now? So many are asking those very questions. We are even more divided today than ever as a country. I surely hope that people don't see Topeka folks typically like that. They certainly aren't.

 

[auparavant]

You know what, though, I had to SEARCH and SEARCH WHY these people were going to protest. It didn't make sense. Then I read that article about G-d punishing us. Just...?????? Well, isn't your true punishment hell after death? And why is someone happy others suffer? Oftentimes, the people suffering horribly in the world aren't even guilty. lol

 

[Shimmie]

You know what, though, I had to SEARCH and SEARCH WHY these people were going to protest. It didn't make sense. Then I read that article about G-d punishing us. Just...?????? Well, isn't your true punishment hell after death? And why is someone happy others suffer?

Oftentimes, the people suffering horribly in the world aren't even guilty.

At the bolded... this is so true and these children are a perfect example.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

I understand what you're sharing. You're right about prayers of emotion, for how can one not be emotional over any harm that comes to a child? Children are defenseless and deserve to be protected.

These are my thoughts, Angel.

When God punished Sodom/Gomorrah and when He brought on the flood, He judgment was direct and to the exact source, the ones responsible for the rebellious behaviour. He didn't skirt around it. In this country, the ones making and supporting the laws of rebellion are the ones responsible and the ones who should be facing judgment, not the innocent babies who were murdered in cold blood.

It's the legislators and those who back them who are putting these laws into being who should bare the judgment, not those children. I'm just being real here. Otherwise, folks won't get it. They'll just continue in their rebellion.

I realized what the words Politically Correct means. It's total rebellion against God. That's exactly what it is, ignoring God and doing what folks want to do, mocking Him.

It's time to see Congress hit with an earthquake, or a taste of the wind, saving those whose hearts are for God. Perhaps a little shaking will shake some sense into them who think they can legalize sin and not bear the judgment for it.

I pray that my post doesn't come off as harsh or vindictive. There's no anger in my heart; just saddness that when tragedies like this occur, it's the innocent ones who suffer. Those who are the sinful and rebellious are the ones who unaffected. Sure, they have a brief moment of charitable condolences, but at the end of the day, they're 'over it' and have moved on to continue in their sin and rebellion.

These folks at WBC are misdirected. Their protesting should be directed at the source, not the victims.

MrsHaseeb,

Hi Shimmie I'm not disagreeing with your point. I believe these things are going to happen as a result of the lack of God's presence though. We don't know the spiritual causes of what happened there and we probably never will. It is a sad fact that the children suffered as a result. Yes this church is ignorant and completely foolish and they are directing people away from Christ instead of to him, but this happened as a result of sin and disobedience somewhere and maybe are indirectly related to the same sex marriage and abortion laws. The children were the innocent victims of course. In my examples of Sodom and Gomorrah and the flood, the point being made was that there were innocent children who were not participating in those things as well. This situation was not the total destruction that God himself performs, but i believe it was a byproduct of the sins in the world and God allowed it to happen. That is what I meant by the wrath of God. When a door is open for the enemy to attack because of sin, he doesn't care if the people he is destroying are innocent and this is going to get worse. When situations like this occur the first thing we do is get sad and want to love and embrace and pray for the people and that's fine. God gave us emotion, but spiritual discernment needs to override our human sympathies. So while I prayed for these people and the surviving children, I know there was a root cause somewhere for this.

As far as the people passing the laws, they are ordained to their destruction and when it comes it will be a direct act of the Most High God.

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[Iwanthealthyhair67]

What should we do as christians what is our role in crisis or when anything heinous happens, should we do everyhting the world does like picketing ...though what happened took place in the physical realm something spiritual is going on here also. I'm not sure that our response should be the same, after all our fight is not carnal...

 

[aribell]

Be back to post later, but Shimmie's post reminded me of this verse:

"For thus says the LORD: “If those who did not deserve to drink the cup must drink it, will you go unpunished? You shall not go unpunished, but you must drink." Jeremiah 49:12

 

[Shimmie]

Be back to post later, but Shimmie's post reminded me of this verse:

"For thus says the LORD: “If those who did not deserve to drink the cup must drink it, will you go unpunished? You shall not go unpunished, but you must drink." Jeremiah 49:12

Praise God forever. God has a Word for every thought in our heart.

Nicola, thank you for sharing this. I mean it, thank you very much.

 

[auparavant]

Vernon Johns, a minister, once said: "Do you deserve G-d or do you deserve the state of Mississippi?" I'm sure many thought they should pray their problems away. G-d had another plan. He wanted them to put their prayers to action and face the fire. As for Westboro, naybe some should picket, maybe others should make sure the city passed an ordinance banning them and etc. Thank G-d that grandmothers and grandfathers, mothers and fathers, children, teachers, doctors, lawyers, southerners, Jews, northerners and christians helped African Americans fight that good fight - with their blood. It would not have been won without the sacrifices. As every situation differs in it's complexity and needs to resolve, people need to determine what is the best next move. But complacency in the pews (read: prayer only) is not what is solely required. Jesus didn't secure the possibility for redemption by prayer and good thoughts alone. He said that if you are of Him, you would feed the hungry and clothe the naked. That's not just praying the situation away.

 

[dicapr]

Hi Shimmie I'm not disagreeing with your point. I believe these things are going to happen as a result of the lack of God's presence though. We don't know the spiritual causes of what happened there and we probably never will. It is a sad fact that the children suffered as a result. Yes this church is ignorant and completely foolish and they are directing people away from Christ instead of to him, but this happened as a result of sin and disobedience somewhere and maybe are indirectly related to the same sex marriage and abortion laws. The children were the innocent victims of course. In my examples of Sodom and Gomorrah and the flood, the point being made was that there were innocent children who were not participating in those things as well. This situation was not the total destruction that God himself performs, but i believe it was a byproduct of the sins in the world and God allowed it to happen. That is what I meant by the wrath of God. When a door is open for the enemy to attack because of sin, he doesn't care if the people he is destroying are innocent and this is going to get worse. When situations like this occur the first thing we do is get sad and want to love and embrace and pray for the people and that's fine. God gave us emotion, but spiritual discernment needs to override our human sympathies. So while I prayed for these people and the surviving children, I know there was a root cause somewhere for this.

As far as the people passing the laws, they are ordained to their destruction and when it comes it will be a direct act of the Most High God.

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But doesn't the book of Job prove that sometimes those who are afflicted are innocent? Didn't Job's friends and wife assume that his suffering was due to his wickedness when he was indeed blameless? How do we know that these individuals are suffereing because of their or our nation's wickedness?

 

[MrsHaseeb]

But doesn't the book of Job prove that sometimes those who are afflicted are innocent? Didn't Job's friends and wife assume that his suffering was due to his wickedness when he was indeed blameless? How do we know that these individuals are suffereing because of their or our nation's wickedness?

Hi. You made a good point. But the door was opened for satan to attack Job by taking his children. First, he was always sacrificing and making burnt offerings for his kids in fear that something would happen to them. Perfect love casts out fear, so Job didn't trust God to take care of his kids. He sacrificed for them everyday and though Job was a righteous man he didn't pray for others. So where did the enemy attack?? He attacked where he knew Job's fear was. That was the open door. But also, God allowed this to happen although he didn't cause it directly the way he did with the flood or with Sodom and Gomorrah. In the end, Job grew and began to pray for others and God did restore everything Job lost. I think there is a difference between suffering as a child of God and suffering in the world. The point I was making is that there was a spiritual root behind the person who commited the act that could have been the result of sin and all that's going on in the world. The children were a byproduct, and totally innocent. It was a sad situation, and I continue to pray about it. These are simply my views of it. I hope this situation will draw people to Christ.

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[dicapr]

Hi. You made a good point. But the door was opened for satan to attack Job by taking his children. First, he was always sacrificing and making burnt offerings for his kids in fear that something would happen to them. Perfect love casts out fear, so Job didn't trust God to take care of his kids. He sacrificed for them everyday and though Job was a righteous man he didn't pray for others. So where did the enemy attack?? He attacked where he knew Job's fear was. That was the open door. But also, God allowed this to happen although he didn't cause it directly the way he did with the flood or with Sodom and Gomorrah. In the end, Job grew and began to pray for others and God did restore everything Job lost. I think there is a difference between suffering as a child of God and suffering in the world. The point I was making is that there was a spiritual root behind the person who commited the act that could have been the result of sin and all that's going on in the world. The children were a byproduct, and totally innocent. It was a sad situation, and I continue to pray about it. These are simply my views of it. I hope this situation will draw people to Christ.

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I really don't think that was the case. Job's children were grown and making their own decisions. He was making sacrifices for their sins believing that God was faithful and just to forgive them. I don't see a lack of faith in God in that no more than I see a lack of faith for a parent praying for their children. Job's sacrifice for his children's sins actually means that their sins had been forgiven at the time of their death. Job being pressed to sacrifice for his children may have been the Holy Spirit's way to ensure the salvation of his children in their death. Remember, Job was restored twofold. His wife only had 7 more children. For Job to be restored 2 fold it would mean that his first set of children obtained salvation.


But I agree with you in that I hope this tragedy draws people to God

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

I'm not saying that we should not fight but our fight is not the same as theirs...the Lord must instruct us on what we must do but do we consult him, very rarely...we just do what everyone else does, so how are we different...the head leads too much when the spirit must lead...

 

[equestrian]

I don't see why they would, those are your "true christians" right there I don't know why liberal christians continue attempting to make the bible out to be anything but anti-homosexuality.

 

[aribell]

I don't see why they would, those are your "true christians" right there I don't know why liberal christians continue attempting to make the bible out to be anything but anti-homosexuality.

I think it's been mentioned above, but the problem with Westboro Baptist Church is that the death of innocent children has nothing to do with homosexuality. They are saying they are taking a stand against the immorality of the country...but are doing so by dishonoring people who have nothing to do with those things. I wonder how many "true Christians" would be happy to have Westboro Baptist picketing outside of their family member's funeral just because they believe that any time something bad happens (regardless of guilt, apparently), that it's because God is making an example out of that person.
___________________________________________________

The reason I started the thread is because it seems that the Church needs to depend more on genuine spiritual discernment when thinking, praying, and speaking on such things. Actually seeking the Lord to know the significance of what transpired, not shoehorning its meaning into what is more or less a political statement. I say political because of what auparavant mentioned--many evils have been systematically perpetrated in this society since its inception and yet it is rarely said that the US is or ever has been under judgment for such things.

Even currently, I did not hear a believer suggest that the US might be being judged because of our needless killing of families and children abroad through our drone strikes, perpetuating an unjust "war on terror." Or that the US is being judged for the fact that it is a top supplier of arms around the globe.

By not depending on discernment and true prophecy, we miss the opportunity to be the real mouthpieces of the Lord to both learn and communicate what is really going on behind the scenes spiritually. That is not to say that in this instance that it's one thing or the other, but that if people are going to speak, they should speak "as speaking the oracles of God." The WBC people show no discernment regarding what is actually fitting in each instance, but in their own words, will picket wherever they feel they can get their message out.

 

[Shimmie]

I think it's been mentioned above, but the problem with Westboro Baptist Church is that the death of innocent children has nothing to do with homosexuality. They are saying they are taking a stand against the immorality of the country...but are doing so by dishonoring people who have nothing to do with those things. I wonder how many "true Christians" would be happy to have Westboro Baptist picketing outside of their family member's funeral just because they believe that any time something bad happens (regardless of guilt, apparently), that it's because God is making an example out of that person.
___________________________________________________

The reason I started the thread is because it seems that the Church needs to depend more on genuine spiritual discernment when thinking, praying, and speaking on such things. Actually seeking the Lord to know the significance of what transpired, not shoehorning its meaning into what is more or less a political statement. I say political because of what auparavant mentioned--many evils have been systematically perpetrated in this society since its inception and yet it is rarely said that the US is or ever has been under judgment for such things.

Even currently, I did not hear a believer suggest that the US might be being judged because of our needless killing of families and children abroad through our drone strikes, perpetuating an unjust "war on terror." Or that the US is being judged for the fact that it is a top supplier of arms around the globe.

By not depending on discernment and true prophecy, we miss the opportunity to be the real mouthpieces of the Lord to both learn and communicate what is really going on behind the scenes spiritually.

That is not to say that in this instance that it's one thing or the other, but that if people are going to speak, they should speak "as speaking the oracles of God." The WBC people show no discernment regarding what is actually fitting in each instance, but in their own words, will picket wherever they feel they can get their message out.

nicola.kirwan ...

Again... you are the "Observer" . It's one of your 'gifts' in the Lord.

I have to say thank you if for no other reason than for the 'awareness' that is placed in my heart, of personal conviction, when you share.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

By not depending on discernment and true prophecy, we miss the opportunity to be the real mouthpieces of the Lord to both learn and communicate what is really going on behind the scenes spiritually. That is not to say that in this instance that it's one thing or the other, but that if people are going to speak, they should speak "as speaking the oracles of God." The WBC people show no discernment regarding what is actually fitting in each instance, but in their own words, will picket wherever they feel they can get their message out.

I like this portion. It really makes me think. Thank you.

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