The Official Catholic Thread

[Galadriel]

I don't know if we'll get a sub-forum or not, but it shouldn't stop us from exploring and discussing our faith .

I have benefited over the years from knowledgeable and insightful Christians who not only talked the talked, but also walked the walk. For that, I am truly thankful.

Sometimes we Catholic Christians have questions about our faith, or seek a more in-depth study or certain beliefs we hold. Maybe we can use this thread as our little Q&A thread.

So how about it?

 

[Shimmie]

I expect everyone to respect our Catholic sisters in this thread. No derailing.

 

[diadall]

I was raised Catholic but I attend a Baptist church now. I will check out this thread from time to time.

 

[auparavant]

Something where prayer requests and questions can be answered directly without having to defend the faith would be welcomed. We are all one in Christ but we are not all worshiping at the same temple. We only need respect.

 

[auparavant]

Question 1: Well, I'll start. I'm wondering about praying the chapelet of divine mercy for a soul with the promise that that person would not perish in the end. Where is that located in the Diary of Divine Mercy in My Soul of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska? Anyone know?


Question 2: Also, could I call our priest to come over for prayer for my family with the death of a loved one who was not catholic and will not be buried here even? I've only attended one catholic memorial as I was not raised catholic.

I thank you in advance for your responses.

 

[Galadriel]

Question 1: Well, I'll start. I'm wondering about praying the chapelet of divine mercy for a soul with the promise that that person would not perish in the end. Where is that located in the Diary of Divine Mercy in My Soul of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska? Anyone know?

I haven't read St. Faustina's diary, but here's a link to the Oblates of Divine Mercy website: http://www.saint-faustina.com/drp/

It contains the background on St. Faustina, the Divine Mercy Devotion, and the related prayers, etc. My husband and I did the Divine Mercy chaplet last year for Lent.

Question 2: Also, could I call our priest to come over for prayer for my family with the death of a loved one who was not catholic and will not be buried here even? I've only attended one catholic memorial as I was not raised catholic.

Yes you can! You can even request a Mass said for that person as well. Another interesting thing is that the Catholic Church will give a funeral and burial for any Christian regardless of denomination (so long as the person/family had or wouldn't have any objections).

 

[CoilyFields]

Hi ladies! Not Catholic but I have a question. (Is that ok in this thread?) Can someone explain the concept of papal infallibility? (Correct me if that's not the right term)

 

[Galadriel]

Hi ladies! Not Catholic but I have a question. (Is that ok in this thread?) Can someone explain the concept of papal infallibility? (Correct me if that's not the right term)

CoilyFields, of course!

In short, when Christ gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom (Matt. 16:18) and said the Gates of Hell will not prevail, and that Peter has the authority to "bind and loose," Our Lord was giving Peter (the first Pope) the protection of infallibility when teaching on matters of faith and morals in his official capacity as leader of the Church.

Infallbility does not mean the Pope is impeccable (sinless, or without personal fault/flaws). Infallibility is not the same as Inspiration (what the authors of the Bible had).

Infallibility is ONLY applicable when the Pope is declaring a dogma of the faith "ex-cathedra" or "from the Chair" (The Chair of St. Peter is a religious metaphor to the authority and headship of St. Peter over the Church). Also, ex-cathedra teachings are rooted in and coincides with Scripture and Tradition.

A couple of ex-cathedra teachings that have been declared:

• Jesus Christ is fully human and fully divine (True God and True Man). Today we might think, "of course He is! What's the big deal?" However during the time of the early Church, several heresies sprung up like Nestorianism (Christ was divine, and His divinity destroyed or absorbed His human nature) and Arianism (Christ was not divine, but a super-man). The Pope, by formally declaring ex-cathedra that Christ is True God and True Man, upheld with God's assistance, the truth of the two natures of Christ.
• The Immaculate Conception. The Blessed Virgin Mary, at the moment of her conception, was infused by God's sanctifying grace to prepare her for her role as the Mother of Christ (thus preserving her from the stain of Original Sin).

The purpose of infallibility is to not make an individual pope look wise or holy, but it is God's way of assisting him in leading and guiding the Church in accordance with His promise in Matt. 16:17-19. Another reason for infallibility is because Christ's Church is indefectible--His Bride will not and cannot lead us astray or teach error.

 

[divya]

Just wanted to express my support for this thread. I will also be reading to gain a better understanding of the beliefs of Catholic Christians.

 

[Keen]

Question 1: Well, I'll start. I'm wondering about praying the chapelet of divine mercy for a soul with the promise that that person would not perish in the end. Where is that located in the Diary of Divine Mercy in My Soul of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska? Anyone know?


Question 2: Also, could I call our priest to come over for prayer for my family with the death of a loved one who was not catholic and will not be buried here even? I've only attended one catholic memorial as I was not raised catholic.

I thank you in advance for your responses.

I haven't read St. Faustina's diary, but here's a link to the Oblates of Divine Mercy website: http://www.saint-faustina.com/drp/

It contains the background on St. Faustina, the Divine Mercy Devotion, and the related prayers, etc. My husband and I did the Divine Mercy chaplet last year for Lent.



Yes you can! You can even request a Mass said for that person as well. Another interesting thing is that the Catholic Church will give a funeral and burial for any Christian regardless of denomination (so long as the person/family had or wouldn't have any objections).

Regarding the second one, would the priest come over for prayer though? I know they are required to come if the person is sick even if the person was not Catholic. But If the person already died, would they come to the house prayer (if you don't have a personal relationship with the priest)? They probably won't say no if you ask as long as you work within their scheduled. I'm just not sure if those are one of those required duties.

 

[diadall]

Regarding the second one, would the priest come over for prayer though? I know they are required to come if the person is sick even if the person was not Catholic. But If the person already died, would they come to the house prayer (if you don't have a personal relationship with the priest)? They probably won't say no if you ask as long as you work within their scheduled. I'm just not sure if those are one of those required duties.

I tend to agree with this. If the person is already deceased the priest may come to see the family but only if there is an established relationship.

 

[CoilyFields]

@CoilyFields, of course!

In short, when Christ gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom (Matt. 16:18) and said the Gates of Hell will not prevail, and that Peter has the authority to "bind and loose," Our Lord was giving Peter (the first Pope) the protection of infallibility when teaching on matters of faith and morals in his official capacity as leader of the Church.

Infallbility does not mean the Pope is impeccable (sinless, or without personal fault/flaws). Infallibility is not the same as Inspiration (what the authors of the Bible had).

Infallibility is ONLY applicable when the Pope is declaring a dogma of the faith "ex-cathedra" or "from the Chair" (The Chair of St. Peter is a religious metaphor to the authority and headship of St. Peter over the Church). Also, ex-cathedra teachings are rooted in and coincides with Scripture and Tradition.

A couple of ex-cathedra teachings that have been declared:

• Jesus Christ is fully human and fully divine (True God and True Man). Today we might think, "of course He is! What's the big deal?" However during the time of the early Church, several heresies sprung up like Nestorianism (Christ was divine, and His divinity destroyed or absorbed His human nature) and Arianism (Christ was not divine, but a super-man). The Pope, by formally declaring ex-cathedra that Christ is True God and True Man, upheld with God's assistance, the truth of the two natures of Christ.
• The Immaculate Conception. The Blessed Virgin Mary, at the moment of her conception, was infused by God's sanctifying grace to prepare her for her role as the Mother of Christ (thus preserving her from the stain of Original Sin).

The purpose of infallibility is to not make an individual pope look wise or holy, but it is God's way of assisting him in leading and guiding the Church in accordance with His promise in Matt. 16:17-19. Another reason for infallibility is because Christ's Church is indefectible--His Bride will not and cannot lead us astray or teach error.

Galadriel , Thanks sis! I get it. One more thing lol...How is the Pope chosen?

 

[Galadriel]

@Galadriel , Thanks sis! I get it. One more thing lol...How is the Pope chosen?

Upon the death of a pope, all the cardinals (under the age of 80) gather in conclave (in the Vatican) to vote for the next pope. Whoever gets 2/3 majority of the votes is elected pope (the pope is also the Bishop of Rome).

Technically, any baptized Catholic male can be elected pope, though this would be extremely exceptional, because usually a cardinal from among the college of cardinals is elected pope. This is why people are so excited about our new Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York, because it puts him in a very good position to be elected pope (though an American has never yet been pope). Personally, I'm rooting for Cardinal Francis Arinze from Nigeria. He is well-loved by many Catholics around the world.

The voting in conclave is done in secrecy, and there is no outside contact (and there should be no outside interference) during this time. Once the pope is elected, he has to first accept the position, and then choose his name (for example, Joseph Ratzinger chose the name Benedict XVI). He then goes to the "Room of Tears," where he dresses in his official vestments as pope and has a brief private time. He is then escorted to the main balcony where he is officially announced to the world, and then he greets everyone present and delivers his Apostolic blessing to the city of Rome, and to the world.

 

[fifi134]

[B]The Immaculate Conception.[/B] The Blessed Virgin Mary, at the moment of her conception, was infused by God's sanctifying grace to prepare her for her role as the Mother of Christ [B](thus preserving her from the stain of Original Sin)[/B].
[/LIST
[/QUOTE]

Not Catholic but I have a question (not trying to derail at all). How does one reconcile teachings that say Mary was sinless with Scripture in Romans 3:23: [B]"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"[/B]?

 

[Galadriel]

Not Catholic but I have a question (not trying to derail at all). How does one reconcile teachings that say Mary was sinless with Scripture in Romans 3:23: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"?

The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way (a human mother and father), was by God's grace (and in light of Christ's merits) preserved from the stain of Original Sin.



The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature.



Why would God preserve her from the stain of Original Sin at the moment of her conception? To prepare her for her role as Mother of Our Lord--He took on flesh and blood, her flesh and blood, and was born from her and was raised by her. She humbly and faithfully answered God's call when He sent the angel Gabriel to her:



"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28).



The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.



The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind.Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace."



Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

Concerning the reference, "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23) and Mary proclaiming that her "spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47), I agree that Mary, too, required a Savior.



Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation. The sanctifying grace that Christ won for redeemed Christians was applied to her at her conception.


But what about Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin (this also includes the severely mentally disabled).



This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).



We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.



The objection is sometimes also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. All of the holy angels in Heaven never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin.



This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work He has done in sanctifying His creation.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

The Marian doctrines are very hard to understand/accept when you are raised Protestant, but if you simply think about Mary as the vessel (the new ark of the covenant) who carried our Lord, then the doctrines about Mary make sense. Why would God put the son of God in an un-pure vessel? Also, in my own journey, I have accepted that there are things that humans will never understand but if we pray for the faith we need to accept the truth, then God is will give us that peace.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

Galadriel, can you talk a little about the 7 books of the Bible that were removed after the Protestant Reformation? I learned that these books were removed because they supported the Catholic doctrines that reformers were trying to eliminate. It raises my spidey senses that Christians used a Bible for over 1500 years that was then altered.

 

[makeupgirl]

The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way (a human mother and father), was by God's grace (and in light of Christ's merits) preserved from the stain of Original Sin.



The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature.



Why would God preserve her from the stain of Original Sin at the moment of her conception? To prepare her for her role as Mother of Our Lord--He took on flesh and blood, her flesh and blood, and was born from her and was raised by her. She humbly and faithfully answered God's call when He sent the angel Gabriel to her:



"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28).



The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.



The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind.Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace."



Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

Concerning the reference, "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23) and Mary proclaiming that her "spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47), I agree that Mary, too, required a Savior.



Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation. The sanctifying grace that Christ won for redeemed Christians was applied to her at her conception.


But what about Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin (this also includes the severely mentally disabled).



This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).



We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.



The objection is sometimes also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. All of the holy angels in Heaven never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin.



This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work He has done in sanctifying His creation.

Im confused about the bold but also very interested. Are you saying that when Mary became pregnant with Jesus, she was redeemed automatically? or did I misread it? If I did misread it, I apologize in advance.

 

[fifi134]

It just doesn't make sense to me because of other verses such as Romans 5:12 that says:

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--".

It makes no distinction of any special exceptions.

Where does Scripture state that Mary was free from the stain of original sin?

 

[Galadriel]

The Marian doctrines are very hard to understand/accept when you are raised Protestant, but if you simply think about Mary as the vessel (the new ark of the covenant) who carried our Lord, then the doctrines about Mary make sense. Why would God put the son of God in an un-pure vessel? Also, in my own journey, I have accepted that there are things that humans will never understand but if we pray for the faith we need to accept the truth, then God is will give us that peace.

Agreed. Jesus had no human father. The flesh, blood, and human nature that He became incarnated into comes from Mary. It would make sense (and esp. in light of Luke 1:28) that God would prepare her for this by preserving her from original sin by His grace.

 

[Galadriel]

@Galadriel, can you talk a little about the 7 books of the Bible that were removed after the Protestant Reformation? I learned that these books were removed because they supported the Catholic doctrines that reformers were trying to eliminate. It raises my spidey senses that Christians used a Bible for over 1500 years that was then altered.

Yes, the seven books you speak of are the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament:

• Tobit
• Judith
• Wisdom (or Wisdom of Solomon)
• Wisdom of Jesus ben Sira (or Ecclesiasticus)
• Baruch
• 1 Maccabees
• 2 Maccabees

These Old Testament books were in the Septuagint--the Jews' Greek translation of the Old Testament.

Who used the Septuagint?

• Jews
• Jesus and the Apostles
• The early Church

Who rejected the seven deuterocanonicals and took them out of the Septuagint?

• Palestinian Jews--at the Council of Jaminah in 90 AD. They also rejected the Christian New Testament
• Protestant Reformers

Who kept the deuterocanonical books and did not throw them out of the OT?

• Greek-speaking Jews
• Ethiopian Jews
• Jesus and the Apostles
• the Early Church

Protestants rejected the deuterocanonicals largely because they backed up Catholic teaching, for example the teaching on Purgatory is derived from the book of Maccabees.

 

[Galadriel]

Im confused about the bold but also very interested. Are you saying that when Mary became pregnant with Jesus, she was redeemed automatically? or did I misread it? If I did misread it, I apologize in advance.

(Please note, I'm bolding for emphasis and clarification )

When Mary was conceived in her mother's womb, Mary's soul was infused with God's sanctifying grace and preserved from the stain of original sin. This redeemed her at that moment.

Hope that's a little more clear.

 

[fifi134]

(Please note, I'm bolding for emphasis and clarification )

When Mary was conceived in her mother's womb, Mary's soul was infused with God's sanctifying grace and preserved from the stain of original sin. This redeemed her at that moment.

Hope that's a little more clear.

Galadriel I'm confused. How do you know this? What Scripture supports this?

 

[Galadriel]

It just doesn't make sense to me because of other verses such as Romans 5:12 that says:

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--".

It makes no distinction of any special exceptions.

Where does Scripture state that Mary was free from the stain of original sin?

Yes, Romans 5:12 speaks to the general condition of humans. We are born with the stain of original sin, and we are mortal (we die).

However, bearing the stain of original sin isn't essential to human nature (meaning, you can be fully human and not be stained with original sin).

Two examples which prove this:

1. Jesus Christ is fully man--flesh, blood, soul--yet He is sinless and was born without the stain of original sin.
2. Baptism washes away the stain of original sin. All baptized members of the Church have been cleansed of the stain of original sin.

There is a difference between original sin (being born deprived of sanctifying grace) and actual sin (my willful choice to disobey God's laws or commit immorality).

The "all" that Paul uses in Greek here does not mean "each and everyone without exception," because if this is true, then it means Christ (possessing a fully human nature as well) would also fall under this "all men have sinned." This is clearly not the case.

It is also clear that not every human commits actual sin:

-unborn children in the womb
-infants
-very young children under the age of reason
-the severely mentally disabled

So clearly there are exceptions.

Note in Luke 1:28 where the Archangel Gabriel addresses Mary as "full of grace." The Greek keracharitomene (full of grace) means to be endowed with the qualities of grace. Paul uses "keracharitomene" also to indicate the grace given to redeemed Christians.

 

[Galadriel]

@Galadriel I'm confused. How do you know this? What Scripture supports this?

See post #24 and #15

 

[makeupgirl]

(Please note, I'm bolding for emphasis and clarification )

When Mary was conceived in her mother's womb, Mary's soul was infused with God's sanctifying grace and preserved from the stain of original sin. This redeemed her at that moment.

Hope that's a little more clear.

Ok, thanks Galadriel

 

[Belle Du Jour]

Yes, the seven books you speak of are the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament:

• Tobit
• Judith
• Wisdom (or Wisdom of Solomon)
• Wisdom of Jesus ben Sira (or Ecclesiasticus)
• Baruch
• 1 Maccabees
• 2 Maccabees

These Old Testament books were in the Septuagint--the Jews' Greek translation of the Old Testament.

Slightly OT, but I have seen several renditions (paintings) of Judith killing Holofernes in various museums. I haven't gotten around to reading that book of the Bible yet, but before I really learned about the 7 missing books I remember thinking, I never learned that story in Sunday School

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Beheading_Holofernes

 

[Belle Du Jour]

Who used the Septuagint?

• Jews
• Jesus and the Apostles
• The early Church

Who rejected the seven deuterocanonicals and took them out of the Septuagint?

• Palestinian Jews--at the Council of Jaminah in 90 AD. They also rejected the Christian New Testament
• Protestant Reformers

Who kept the deuterocanonical books and did not throw them out of the OT?

• Greek-speaking Jews
• Ethiopian Jews
• Jesus and the Apostles
• the Early Church

Protestants rejected the deuterocanonicals largely because they backed up Catholic teaching, for example the teaching on Purgatory is derived from the book of Maccabees.

Just this small historical fact is more proof for me that the Church today (both Eastern and Western rites) is the direct extension of the early Church. I know many dispute this fact, but the more you go back historically you realize it

 

[Galadriel]

Slightly OT, but I have seen several renditions (paintings) of Judith killing Holofernes in various museums. I haven't gotten around to reading that book of the Bible yet, but before I really learned about the 7 missing books I remember thinking, I never learned that story in Sunday School

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Beheading_Holofernes

Judith = Cool

'Tis all!

 

[Galadriel]

FYI

Nice explanation of The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.