The Official Catholic Thread

THE APOSTLE'S CREED IN THE BIBLE.

The Apostle's Creed.

(I love this prayer...)

I believe in God, (Isaiah 44:6; 45:5)
the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1; John 1:1-3; Acts 14:15)

And in Jesus Christ, ( Luke 2:11; John 20:28)
His only Son, ( John 3:16; Proverbs 30:4)
our Lord, ( John 20:28)
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, ( Luke 1:35)
born of the Virgin(Luke 1:27) Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate, (Luke 23:23-25)
was crucified, (John 19:20; Acts 4:10; all Gospels)
dead (1 Corinthians 15:3)
and buried. ( 1 Corinthians 15:4)
He descended into Hell. (1 Peter 3:18; Luke 23:43)

The third day (1 Corinthians 15:4)
He arose from the dead, (1 Corinthians 15:4)
He ascended into Heaven (Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51, Acts 1:11)
and is seated at the right hand
of God, ( Mark 16:19; Hebrews 1:3)
the Father Almighty.

From thence He shall come
to judge the quick* and the dead.(2 Timothy 4:1; John 5:22)

I believe in the Holy Spirit, ( John 15:26; 16:7-8, 13-14; Acts 13:2)
the church universal, ( Galatians 3:26-29)
the communion ** of saints, ( Revelation 19:14; Hebrews 10:25)
the forgiveness of sins, ( Luke 7:48)
the resurrection of the body, ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16; John 6:39)
and life everlasting. ( John 10:28; 17:2-3)

* "quick" means "spiritually alive"
** "communion" refers to "coming together"


Comments on "He descended into Hell.":


(a) The closest translation of the original Latin is "He descended into the lower parts." It is unclear which is meant: 'Hell', 'Hades' or 'the Lake of Fire'. The Hebrew term "Sheol" is sometimes translated "Hell" or "Hades", and other times "the grave". Some commentators claim this sentence means "He went into the grave." However, as Calvin aptly points out, earlier versions of the Creed already said "He was . . . buried." What would be the point of 'clarifying' an unambiguous statement by adding an ambiguous statement? Also, "He descended" is active voice. Jesus didn't go into the grave, His body was placed in the grave.


(b) The placement of the comma in Luke seems to say "I tell you the truth -- you will be with Me in Paradise today." However, there is no punctuation in the original Greek text. it could also mean "Today I tell you the truth -- you will be with me in Paradise." in the sense of "I'm telling you right now -- you will be with me in Paradise." On the basis of the biblical text there is no reason to prefer the punctuation chosen by the translators.


(c) Among both the authors of the New Testament and later commentators there is some confusion as to where Jesus' spirit was between His death and resurrection. Peter seems to indicate that He spent at least part of the time in Paradise preaching. To whom and about what continues to be a subject of debate.


(d) Many theologians point out that the punishment for sin is not physical death, but spiritual death (separation from God) and punishment in Hell/the Lake of Fire. There is nothing to indicate that Jesus went directly to Paradise. He could have gone to the punishment part of Hades or to the Lake of Fire to take our punishment for a time and then gone to Paradise to preach.

 

Question 1: I can't figure out why the Ethiopian Orthodox and St. Mark's churches are not in full communion with full orthodoxy nor in Rome. Anybody fully comprehend this? I know there is history, but in light of the canonical books they have never gotten rid of in whichever councils...why?????


Question 2: If you go to one of the Eastern churches not in full union, it that a mortal sin seeing they are not under Rome yet?

 

Rsgal thanks for the Apostle's Creed!

auparavant

Found this at EWTN:

ALEXANDRIAN FAMILY OF LITURGICAL RITES
The Church of Alexandria in Egypt was one of the original centers of Christianity, since like Rome and Antioch it had a large Jewish population which was the initial object of apostolic evangelization. Its Liturgy is attributed to St. Mark the Evangelist, and shows the later influence of the Byzantine Liturgy, in addition to its unique elements.

• Coptic – Egyptian Catholics who returned to communion with Rome in 1741. The Patriarch of Alexandria leads the 200,000 faithful of this ritual Church spread throughout Egypt and the Near East. The liturgical languages are Coptic (Egyptian) and Arabic. Most Copts are not Catholics.

• Ethiopian/Abyssinian – Ethiopian Coptic Christians who returned to Rome in 1846. The liturgical language is Geez. The 200,000 faithful are found in Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia, and Jerusalem.

...................

So there are some St. Mark churches that are in full communion, and probably some church communities who aren't (probably b/c of the issue of Petrine supremacy). I would probably not receive Eucharist in one of the not-in-full-communion churches unless it was an emergency.

 

Great thread! More reasons to love LHCF!!!

 

I'd love to find one out in the Southwest and not have to convert again. We've been to St. Maryam here but they aren't in union with Rome. Love the liturgy and mass and the cymbals they use. We can't take communion with the Copts yet at all...you have to go to their confessor. Love them! Well, I love the Irish-filled churches as well. Today was a little funny, with the responsorial, the kids said it sounded like "Aladdin" . I thought I had suddenly blipped to the synagogue and the cantor was leading. Thanks for this info and I'll pass it onto my daughter who is begging us to convert. Um, nope. If we don't have to.

 

Hi Galadriel
I was raised Catholic and I have a question that maybe you or the other ladies can answer. Do you believe that only Peter was given the keys to the kingdom or are we all able to bind and loose in Jesus' name? Thanks!

 

I don't post over here anymore...I barely lurk, but just throwing my support it. After I went to a Catholic school for 2 years in HS I learned a lot. I also learned a really great respect towards Catholicism that wasn't present in the school I did attend. It taught me a lot about what I believe, this preservation of the history makes it easier for me to believe. I'll probably lurk in this thread...maybe in the CF forum again...we'll see.

 

Charismatic Catholics

Is anyone here a Charismatic?

If so, why and when did you become one?

Do you attend a Charismatic Congregation Church?

 

Re: THE APOSTLE'S CREED IN THE BIBLE.

The Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed are awesome professions of faith

 

BostonMaria while we are all called to study and live out the faith, and be ready to give answers, Our Lord appointed Peter as the Head of His Church:

John 1:42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter[a]).



Matthew 16:15-20
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[b] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.


Upon Peter's confession of faith, Jesus proclaims Peter blessed and that God the Father had revealed to him that Jesus is the "Son of the Living God."


Jesus then says He will build His Church upon Peter and tells him the following:


1. A promise that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church. Since Peter and the Apostles went out spreading the Gospel, there has always been a Church, even in the midst of persecution. The Church is universal (Catholic), and meant for all peoples in all times and places. Also, this promise guarantees the indefectibility of the Church. Indefectibility means that the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit so that it will never teach/proclaim false doctrine.



2. The keys to the Kingdom and the authority to bind and loose specifically means the authority to either permit or forbid a moral or religious belief/practice. Jesus says whatever Peter binds on Earth (the lower court) will be bound in Heaven (the higher court), and likewise for loosing.



The early Church (100s AD, 200s AD, etc.) always recognized the primacy Peter (and those Bishops succeeding Peter in Rome).


Tatian the Syrian

"Simon Cephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are Cephas, and on this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it" (The Diatesseron 23 [A.D. 170]).

Tertullian

"Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).
"[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

The Letter of Clement to James

"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).


The Bishop of Rome (aka the Pope) along with his brother Bishops exercise the authority and leadership necessary to guide the universal Church in matters of faith and morals.



Why can't we (the laity) have the keys too? Why can't just anyone declare doctrine?


1. Jesus is the true Head and Founder of the Church. He is the One who gave this authority directly to Peter. It is Christ's will that this be so.



2. The Body of Christ has different functions and roles for different members. Not all are leaders, Bishops, teachers, etc. Not all have the same gifts and vocations.



3. If anyone could declare doctrine, it would give rise to false interpretations, conflicting teachings, etc. and each person would set himself up as his own pope, his own authority. Or, it could devolve into a "church democracy" where members vote on beliefs and doctrines (think of what happened in recent years with the Anglican church).


The purpose of leading the Church and having this authority is not to lord it over people, or to look lofty--it's to protect the flock (hence why Bishops are called our pastors or shepherds) and to protect, teach, and defend what the Apostles passed down (Scripture + Sacred Tradition).


This is why the Catholic Church has been able to exist, teach, and communicate its doctrines since 33 AD up until now, 2012 AD.

 

Re: Charismatic Catholics

I have not been to a charismatic church, but a girl I went to high school with identifies herself as a charismatic Catholic. I'm not really sure what that means?

 

I have a question: is it normal for Catholics to not sing the hymns or say the responses or does it just depend upon the Church?

Is it bad form to leave Mass right after the Eucharist?

 

Re: Charismatic Catholics

Do you mean the Charismatic groups within the church? If so no. I always look at Charismatic as a group for old people. I'm planning on joining them when I get my AARP card .

 

Re: Charismatic Catholics

Sorry for not being clear.

Charismatics in the Catholic Church are the the ones who worship more like Pentecosts.. in tongoes, raise up their hands and shout or pray loud. I call them the "saved, filled with the Holy Fire Catholics".

I have tons of family that are charismatics

I used to go to a Charismatic Church in the NY area. It's the only such church in the Tri State area

 

I personally always participate in the mass, respond and say all the prayers. I guess its because I'm a Cradle Catholic and could say the whole mass responses automatically since I was 7yrs.
Maybe the Church you are talking about had congregants who aren't fluent in the worship language or who weren't catholics.

When I was in High School I used to leave mass after communion, just to hang out with my peers outside, until I tripped on a kneeler on the pew, fell and slashed my face. Never did it again. The Final Blessing is just as important to me as the rest of the mass

 

No, it's not normal but is it done? Yes. We are giving thanksgiving and all parts of the liturgy are important. Leaving right after eucharist or just before is bad form as well. People should stay. They should also stay and sing the closing hymn and wait for the priest and altar servers to proceed out of the sanctuary. One should also greet the pastor. Well, one should show up on time.......but we're doing much better now. People do this because they are missing out through free will. It's awful but it seems to me that pastors are clamping down on this. But you can't force someone to sing, though.

 

Re: Charismatic Catholics

Not to nitpick, but we can't make that distinction. You are saved in the end, it's not over yet. H-ly fire...if you were baptized and confirmed, then you've received the H-ly Spirit. But I know what you mean. I usually look at a service on Youtube and it's in Ireland and I just have to giggle cuz, bless their hearts, it just isn't like pentecostals at all...but I know not to judge. Still, I

 

It's not normal (nor should it be) to not sing the hymns or say the responses. They hymns reflect our theology and belief, and when we sing them we are proclaiming our faith in God. The responses too are to be said.

I think the rule is that you should show up before the first reading and not leave before the consecration. If you have to leave after Eucharist for something reasonable (for example, you have young children at home, or you're not feeling well, etc.) then it's understandable. If you *can* stay until the end, then it's better to, but I don't think it's a moral infraction to leave after Eucharist (I'll double check though).

 

Thank you for your responses. That was one of the things I noticed right away when I started going to Mass. Some people just don't participate. I know I need to mind my own business and I try to remind myself not to judge. Sometimes, I'm like the only person in my section that is singing. Then I try to lower my voice because I'm not trying to "show out." I love singing hymns.

I also noticed that some people can't get outta there fast enough. Like, as soon as the priest et al start the recessional, the hymn books close. Again, maybe I just need to mind my own business and not judge.

 

Catholic Prophecy

One of my favorite areas of study is eschatology, the Book of Revelation, etc. I have a Protestant (formal) biblical education, so I'm very familiar with several Protestant views of the End Times and related prophecies--but how many of us are well versed in how the Church views this?

Here's a quote from St. Nilus:

After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century, the people of that time will become unrecognisable. When the time for the Advent of the Antichrist approaches, peoples minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonour and lawlessness will grow stronger. Then the world will become unrecognisable. Peoples appearances will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to there shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptations of the Antichrist. There will be no respect for parents or elders, love will disappear, and Christian pastors, bishops, and priests will become vain men, completely failing to distinguish the right hand way from the left. At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will attain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society.

-- St. Nilus, 430 AD


*More to come*

Also, please note that I will distinguish between my own personal speculations and that which is actually official Church teaching.

 

The Church officially teaches the following about the end times and the return of Christ:

The Church's ultimate trial
675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576


676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578


677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581


* II. TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD
678 Following in the steps of the prophets and John the Baptist, Jesus announced the judgment of the Last Day in his preaching.582 Then will the conduct of each one and the secrets of hearts be brought to light.583 Then will the culpable unbelief that counted the offer of God's grace as nothing be condemned.584 Our attitude to our neighbor will disclose acceptance or refusal of grace and divine love.585 On the Last Day Jesus will say: "Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."586


679 Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He "acquired" this right by his cross. The Father has given "all judgment to the Son".587 Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself.588 By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one's works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.589


IN BRIEF
680 Christ the Lord already reigns through the Church, but all the things of this world are not yet subjected to him. The triumph of Christ's kingdom will not come about without one last assault by the powers of evil.



681 On Judgment Day at the end of the world, Christ will come in glory to achieve the definitive triumph of good over evil which, like the wheat and the tares, have grown up together in the course of history.



682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.

--------------
This is what the Catholic is obligated to believe as a matter of faith concerning this.

Throughout history, there have been prophecies by saints and detailed explanations given, which I find very interesting.

In my next post (so as to not make this one too long) I'll list those prophecies. Feel free to comment!

 

Catholic Prophecy (Continued)

*The following is a general outlining of events prophesied by saints and some popes throughout history (also some corresponding Scripture to meditate on). These prophecies are not part of *official* teaching (which can be found in the Catechism, which I quoted in my previous post), thus take the following as you see fit:



1. Riots and war

"You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end." (Matthew 24:6)



2. An event causes the Pope to flee Rome. He is martyred in exile.

"I have seen one of my successors, of the same name, who was fleeing over the bodies of his brethren. He will take refuge in some hiding place; but after a brief respite, he will die a cruel death. Respect for God has disappeared from human hearts. They wish to efface even God's memory. This perversity is nothing less than the beginning of the last days of the world." --Pope St. Pius X

And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God.
--Sr. Lucia, The Third Secret of Fatima


3. A new Pope is chosen + the rise of the Great Monarch

Monk Adso (10th Century): "Some of our teachers say that a King of the Franks will possess the entire Roman Empire. He will be the greatest and last of all Monarchs. After having wisely governed his kingdom, he will go into Jerusalem and will lay his sceptre and his crown upon the Mount of Olives. Immediately afterwards, Antichrist will come."

St. Augustine, 5th Century):" A Frankish King will one day rule over the entire Roman Empire."

Old Saxon prophecy: "He will come from the Fleur-de-Lis..."

St. Caesar, 5th Century: "He shall recover the Crown of the Lilies....."

St. Hildegarde, German Abbess, 12th Century: "The White Flower again takes possession of the Throne of France."

Bishop Ageda, 12th Century: "He shall inherit the Crown of the Fleur-de-Lis"

Busto (15th Century): "The angelic Pope shall place an imperial crown on his head."


4. The Three Days of Darkness (The Great Chastisement)

"Behold, the day of the Lord shall come, a cruel day, and full of indignation, and of wrath, and fury, to lay the land desolate, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven, and their brightness shall not display their light: the sun shall be darkened in his rising, and the moon shall not shine with her light. And I will visit the evils of the world, and against the wicked for their iniquity: and I will make the pride of infidels to cease, and will bring down the arrogancy of the mighty." (Isaiah 13: 9-11)

"God will send two punishments: one will be in the form of wars, revolutions and other evils; it shall originate on earth. The other will be sent from Heaven. There shall come over the whole earth an intense darkness lasting three days and three nights." --Bl. Anna Maria Taigi


5. A period of peace



6. Rise of Anti-Christ

"And we beseech you, Brethren, by the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ and of our gathering together unto Him: that you may not be easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by, word, nor by epistle as sent from us as if the day of the Lord were at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and is lifted above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God." (2 Thess., 2:1-4)

"For he (Antichrist) being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor as a legitimate king, in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless one; as an apostate, iniquitous and murderous; as a robber, concentrating in himself satanic apostasy, and setting aside idols to persuade that he himself is God, raising up himself as the only idol, having in himself the multifarious errors of the other idols." --St. Iraneus (Against Heresies)

 

Eh, I saw that at protestant churches as well. But I also saw those who felt obligated to shout and whatnot when they weren't led in teh spirit to do so. We're so distracted as humans. But the truth is right on that altar, in the liturgy, angels camped about...it's there. We have to receive. LOL I remember a post where I mentioned girls bearing the gifts in sundressed without bras on! You know the homily was "dress appropriately" LOLOL....in love, though.

 

Great thread. Thank you.

 

Re: Charismatic Catholics

Rsgal

Charismatic catholic checking in.

I become one in 2007. I'm charismatic because that's the plan God has for my life.

I'm in the process of becoming a member of a Charismatic Congregation.
I go to mass in a "regular" parish. Mass is mass is mass, no matter what.

If you have questions, feel free to ask.

 

Catholic checking in

Great thread!

 

Re: Charismatic Catholics

Can you explain what becoming a member of a Charismatic congregation means? Thanks

 

I've met a couple of Charismatics, but I've never gone. Charismatic Catholics, please share!

 

Re: Charismatic Catholics

Great! Thanks.
You are so true, Mass is mass no matter what.

 

What are some of your favorite "easy to read" books about the faith? I've heard Catholicism for Dummies is actually a good read lol.