Discussion in 'Christian Fellowship' started by Galadriel, Mar 11, 2012.
An uncorroborated source reported that Pope Francis said he had lost all faith in American Christians after the election of Donald Trump.
Nov 14, 2016
Claim: After Donald Trump was elected president, Pope Francis said he had lost all faith in American Christians.
Example: [Collected via e-mail, November 2016]
Just saw this quote and it just doesn't seem right. Can you please check it out? Thanks!
"True Christians do not treat anyone differently, talk bad about them or look down on them. God help poor Mexicans, Africans and Cubans who wanted to realize American dream" he said. "I am not sure whether we still can vouch for the faith of American Christians, as they need more wisdom looking at the leader they finally elected," said Pope Francis."
Origin:On 9 November 2016, a small Sri Lankan blog published an article reporting that Pope Francis stated he had lost all faith in American Christians due to the election of Donald Trump as President on 8 November 2016:
However, during a mass [on 9 November 2016], Pope Francis said that, he is simply shocked to see how Americans elected their president despite the significant differences of Christian values both candidates possess. Jesus never looked at race, religion, creed or cast when healing people, reached out to everyone with the same love and care. Anyone could reach out to Jesus or the god for forgiveness and guidance.
"True Christians do not treat anyone differently, talk bad about them or look down on them. God help poor Mexicans, Africans and Cubans who wanted to realize American dream" he said.
"I am not sure whether we still can vouch for the faith of American Christians, as they need more wisdom looking at the leader they finally elected", said Pope Francis.
Last time when pope made the controversial statement Trump responded promptly saying that its ""disgraceful" for a religious leader to question anyone's faith.
He added, "If and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which as everyone knows is ISIS's ultimate trophy, I can promise you that the pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been the president,". Ironically he is now the president and he has another statement by Pope Francis to deal forthwith.
The article appeared to be the sort that would attract attention in the tense aftermath of the 2016 election, but no other sources we could find reported any similar about the Pontiff and his take on the election. Early on in the 2016 election cycle, Pope Francis asserted he would make no effort to influence the Catholic vote, although His Holiness was inaccurately claimed to have endorsed Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, and Bernie Sanders, by fake news purveyors.
Although the web site on which the article was hosted did not feature a disclaimer marking it as fake news, it did assert:
The information contained in this website is for general information purposes only. The information provided by "Religious Mind" are news content which we try to keep up to date and correct, yet we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the website or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained on the website for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is therefore strictly at your own consent and accord.
Pope Francis made several appearances and statements in the days following the 8 November 2016 U.S. election, but none appeared to pertain to the outcome of that event. No credible sources reported anything resembling the claim which circulated, much less any commentary the Pope had lost "all faith" in American Christians (and neither did he make such remarks on Twitter).
Originally published: 14 November 2016
Sorry, Donald, he won't wish for anything related to you. His faith is in the Risen Christ, not YOU.
Question: Are they referring to those remarried after an annulment has been issued by the Tribunal??
Cardinal Burke: we will make ‘formal act of correction’ if Pope doesn’t issue Amoris clarification
by Dan Hitchens
posted Wednesday, 16 Nov 2016
Cardinal Raymond Burke, left, stands by Pope Francis saluting bishops, at the end of a general audience in St. Peter's Square (AP)
The cardinal said there was a tradition of issuing a formal correction if a Pope is in error
Cardinal Raymond Burke has said it may be necessary to make a “formal act of correction” if Pope Francis doesn’t answer a letter from four cardinals asking him to clarify aspects of Amoris Laetitia.
In an interview with Edward Pentin of National Catholic Register, Cardinal Burke said that if the Pope were to teach error or heresy, “It is the duty in such cases, and historically it has happened, of cardinals and bishops to make clear that the Pope is teaching error and to ask him to correct it.”
Cardinal Burke is one of four cardinals who have written to the Pope asking for a clarification of Amoris Laetitia. They say that the document could be read as contradicting Church teaching on the moral law and on the question of Communion for the remarried. The Pope has declined to reply to the letter.
Asked what would happen if the Pope remained silent, Cardinal Burke replied: “Then we would have to address that situation. There is, in the tradition of the Church, the practice of correction of the Roman Pontiff. It is something that is clearly quite rare. But if there is no response to these questions, then I would say that it would be a question of taking a formal act of correction of a serious error.”
Such an act of formal correction would be extremely unusual. One example is the challenge to Pope John XXII in the 1330s. He had publicly taught – though only as his personal opinion – that souls in heaven would not actually see God until the Final Judgment, a teaching contrary to Church doctrine.
In response, several theologians challenged Pope John. A few were punished, but the Pope backed down after a joint letter by theologians from the University of Paris, under the leadership of Paludanus, the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem. The letter professed total obedience to John, but affirmed that the teachings being attributed to him were contrary to the Catholic faith. Before his death John withdrew his heretical opinion.
Cardinal Burke’s suggestion of a “formal correction” comes after a debate over whether the remarried can receive Communion while in a sexually active relationship outside marriage. The Church has taught that this is contrary to the dogma of the indissolubility of marriage.
In his apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia, the Pope made no direct reference to the question, but some bishops have interpreted his words as meaning that some remarried people can receive Communion, even if they are still in a sexual relationship. This is the interpretation of the Buenos Aires bishops, which the Pope has appeared to privately favour.
In a probable allusion to the Buenos Aires bishops, Cardinal Burke said: “Even diocesan directives are confused and in error.” He added that there was ”tremendous division” in the Church over Communion and other related points, concerning the moral law and marriage.
He said the four cardinals had intervened “because so many people are saying: ‘We’re confused, and we don’t understand why the cardinals or someone in authority doesn’t speak up and help us.’”
Pope Francis has declared that abortion, which remains a "grave sin" in the eyes of the Catholic Church, can be absolved by ordinary priests for the foreseeable future — instead of requiring the intervention of a bishop.
The change was implemented on a temporary basis, for one year only, as part of the Catholic Church's "Year of Mercy," which began last December and ended on Sunday.
In a letter released on Monday, the pope announced that the change was being extended indefinitely.
Pope Calls Abortion Evidence Of 'The Throwaway Culture'
"I wish to restate as firmly as I can that abortion is a grave sin, since it puts an end to an innocent life," the pope wrote in the letter. "In the same way, however, I can and must state that there is no sin that God's mercy cannot reach and wipe away when it finds a repentant heart seeking to be reconciled with the Father. May every priest, therefore, be a guide, support and comfort to penitents on this journey of special reconciliation."
"Because the Roman Catholic Church holds abortion to be such a serious sin, it had long put the matter of granting forgiveness for it in the hands of a bishop, who could either hear the woman's confession himself or delegate that to a priest who was expert in such situations," The Associated Press explains.
Article continues after sponsorship
On Divorce And Remarriage, Pope Calls For More Grace, Less Dogma
In the U.S., Catholic News Service reports, most bishops have routinely granted the faculty to their priests, but the Year of Mercy made the permission universal.
In the letter released Monday, the pope indicated he was extending the ability to absolve abortions "lest any obstacle arise between the request for reconciliation and God's forgiveness."
The Pope Commemorates The Reformation That Split Western Christianity
As the Two-Way reported last year, when the change for the Year of Mercy was announced, allowing priests to grant absolution for abortion does not constitute a "doctrinal shift" for the church.
"Forgiveness has always been available — albeit through more formal channels," Candida R. Moss, a professor of New Testament and Early Christianity at the University of Notre Dame, told NPR at the time. "That message wasn't out there because the rhetoric that accompanies abortion is so elevated that it eclipses the Church's teaching on forgiveness and mercy."
I have no opinions as of yet. Just thought this was interesting.
I thought forgiveness was given by God?
So, they are saying that a priest has to forgive an abortion? A man can't forgive my sin; God has to do that so this doctrine is something I will never understand.
I've never been Catholic, so I don't really get it. Catholic ladies, what say you?
Do we pray to God for forgiveness? Or do we pray to God in Jesus' name for forgiveness?
Right. That's why I can't get down with a human (Catholic Pope, Baptist Preacher or anyone in between) having a say in who gets forgiven and for what. It's not their place.
It is, ladies. However, Jesus gave power and authority to his apostles and their predecessors throughout history. There is a protocol. Absolution is through G-d, via the priest. Abortions are so common place now, they do need direct and "easy" absolution via priests rather than awaiting the tribunal or via the bishops. Easier access and quicker so one can return to receiving the sacraments.
There are a lot of charges made against the Church without people understanding it's formation. Mortal sins must be confessed via the priest for absolution. It's biblical. Venial sins can be forgiven without confession and by taking communion (of course, one must be repentant). Remember before Jesus and even during His life on earth, people went to the Temple to make sacrifices for their sins and the mediator was the priest. Even Jesus was ransomed by the sacrifice made by his parents.
noun: sacrament; plural noun: sacraments
a religious ceremony or act of the Christian Church that is regarded as an outward and visible sign of inward and spiritual divine grace, in particular.
I'm good. I talk directly to God everyday. I don't need nor want a middle man.
My response was not a judgment, it was an explanation of the questions, of what is, not what people 'think' it is. I don't proselytize anybody and being that you are not a Catholic, you wouldn't be held to it (eta: ). I only offer answers to the question.
He's been very progressive as pope, I know this will get backlash though.
religious people are so weird
This is the major difference between Catholicism and Protestantism.
Catholicism believes you have to go before a priest confess and request forgiveness for your sins.
**To clarify patron saints are called upon to help with prayer.**
Protestantism says we can approach God all by ourselves, you can speak directly to Him for forgiveness, you don't need a representative.
I don't understand Catholicism or religion in general. Just sit back and really think about this. Put a rational spin on this. It's just... it's too much.
Seeing the article and reading poster's the explanation is interesting.
Absolutely incorrect. The first step of penitence is to admit your fault before G-d before you go to the confessional. SMH. There's so much misinformation. Patron saints are not for confession unless it's a prayer for them to help you make a more in-depth, honest confession. People pray for the intercession of Padre Pio, an Italian priest now saint. It's rooted in the "Old" Testament. Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."
There is so much misinformation about the Church that I'm offering this as solely an explanation. I think it's best to know from the SOURCE rather than hearsay. This is no attempt to convert people. This is solely to set the record straight because of the misconceptions and misinformation. If people care to read this info, here is something to further explain it. Reason I'm adamant, this is no different than some people saying, "You know, those Black people do xyz..." and it's actually not true or, at least, not true of most. Information is knowledge and power. It's about understanding completely what you are reading.
All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s finished work on Calvary, but how is this pardon received by individuals? Did Christ leave us any means within the Church to take away sin? The Bible says he gave us two means.
Baptism was given to take away the sin inherited from Adam (original sin) and any sins we personally committed before baptism—sins we personally commit are called actual sins, because they come from our own acts. Thus on the day of Pentecost, Peter told the crowds, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38), and when Paul was baptized he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). And so Peter later wrote, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21).
For sins committed after baptism, a different sacrament is needed. It has been called penance, confession, and reconciliation, each word emphasizing one of its.aspects. During his life, Christ forgave sins, as in the case of the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1–11) and the woman who anointed his feet (Luke 7:48). He exercised this power in his human capacity as the Messiah or Son of man, telling us, "the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Matt. 9:6), which is why the Gospel writer himself explains that God "had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8). ""
No, not actually. Replace that with any ethnicity or race to generalize and see it in a different light. I'm out now, just tried to give factual information. We face these types of opinions quite often, especially with protestants. Well, what can I say. I'd rather go to the source if I have a question. Catechism is online. Same if I wanted to know about Hinduism, I'd ask for source information from an adherent to the faith just so I got my info correctly. No hard feelings. But it's kinda hostile in here. Thing is, these rulings affect catholics, not for outsiders. It would be nice if people didn't invent nor have misconceptions they spread as fact.
@konozas I appreciate you providing info.
I'm not catholic but I think it is silly for people to pop up and criticize the religion. If you don't believe it and don't practice it read the article and keep it moving.
Thanks for the taking the time to explain the reasoning behind the ruling. As for how valid I think it is it doesn't matter-it is for practicing Catholics.
@kanozas I updated my post about the patron saints. I was in a hurry and rushed that. Thanks for the correction.
I stand by my statement otherwise, there are several differences between the two, but Protestantism came forth as a direct rejection to the ideologies within the Catholic Church.
I also appreciate the information provided, but I'm Protestant, so this news in the OP doesn't apply to me.
1. Why do I have to confess my sins to a priest?
That’s the way Jesus set it up on Easter Sunday evening. He told his apostles that just as God the Father had sent him — and God the Father sent him to save us from our sins — so he was sending them.
He breathed on them the power of the Holy Spirit, giving them God’s power to forgive sins, since no one can forgive sins but God alone. He told them that whatever sins they forgive are forgiven and whatever sins they retain are retained (Jn 20:21-23; Mk 2:7).
Since the apostles were unable to read minds, the only way that they would know which to forgive and which to retain is if people told them their sins. Jesus thus established the essential structure of the sacrament of confession. Just as he uses priests to give us his Body and Blood at Mass so he uses them to give us His mercy in Penance.
33. Can my sins be forgiven outside of the Sacrament of Penance?
God, who created the sacraments for our salvation, is Himself not bound by them. Our sins are first forgiven, of course, through the sacrament of baptism.
For post-baptismal sins, the Church has always taught that, for example in a danger of death situation without the possibility of recourse to the sacrament of confession, God could forgive our sins if we pray to him with perfect contrition. The reality is, however, that we can never know if we’ve made a perfect act of contrition.
The Church teaches, therefore, that “individual, integral confession and absolution remain the only ordinary way for the faithful to reconcile themselves with God and the Church, unless physical or moral impossibility excuses from this kind of confession” (CCC 1484).
The great gift of this sacrament is that, if we confess all our serious sins with sorrow and a firm purpose of amendment, we do not need to doubt whether our sins have been forgiven.
God created this sacrament so that we might know he has forgiven us through the ministry of priests.
I'm just curious about how it affects the Catholic Church's stance on abortion. Did it go from abomination to a forgivable sin? Or was it always forgivable?
It doesn't change anything from what I can tell. I'll ask my aunts this week what they have been told about this pronouncement
You have a fundamental lack of understanding. It's not saying that you cannot confess to G-d, it's saying that we go through the priesthood as given by Christ. First step is penitence (between you and G-d). There is a difference between mortal sins (requiring reconciliation/confession) and venial sins, which do not require going to the confessional. It's telling you that our sins are forgiven first through baptism and after baptism, through reconciliation. We are to go to reconciliation at least once yearly. If you didn't sin, particularly moral sins, well, I guess you don't need to confess anything.
It's funny to me how people pick parts that seem to explain everything but don't and as they are not Catholic, don't fully comprehend what is contained within it. You made a statement that we cannot go to G-d by ourselves by our beliefs. Still, incorrect. If you committed a mortal sin, then you follow the apostolic tradition given directly by Christ to confess to your priest. It's really not that difficult. We do pray to G-d, we do ask for forgiveness at home or where ever, we do have a personal relationship to Christ. The last red highlighted says that, yes, G-d can forgive our sins but we might know whether or not we made a full act of contrition (repentance). Lastly, please always cite your sources:
Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston
CCC refers to the Catechism of the Catholic Church as in the citation of the website (CCC 1484). The whole document is online, all 803 pages of it.
Well, last-lastly, if protestants protested this, then they went against the very Christ who instituted it. Shrugs. It's in the "Old" Testament (I prefer to say, First Covenant) and He didn't come to abolish the law. Maybe the others abolish the law but it's not us? I dunno. It is a thought. Whichever the case, you are not bound to this as you are not Catholic, as you mentioned. The article didn't indicate anything for non-Catholics either. I don't know why our faith bothers other people. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It would definitely be nice to provide factual and complete information. You know, the bible talks about slaves obeying their master, marrying your rape victim and obliterating your Canaanite enemies. Explain that one lol. To outsiders who aren't knowledgeable, it looks like G-d isn't so nice. Your opinion is valid as your opinion but it is not fact for what we believe, practice and teach.
Jesus breathed on the apostles and gave them the ability to forgive or retain sins. We believe Our Lord instituted all the Sacraments for a reason. Nothing Our Lord said was random or idle.
And you have to remember that historically, Christians were essentially unified on these major topics for 1500 years until the reformation. What I always say is for me it makes sense to go with the earliest interpretation of scripture because we see how easy it is for scripture to be manipulated.
That's an understatement.
True they were unified, but is that possibly because most were not given access to the Bible? To read for themselves.