The Official Catholic Thread

Discussion in 'Christian Fellowship' started by Galadriel, Mar 11, 2012.

  1. Honey Bee

    Honey Bee Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2009
    Messages:
    13,514
    Media:
    1
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    77,837
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    NYC!
    Thank you for being so gracious. I dint want my heathen vibes to contaminate y'all lol so I lurk over here but never post. But Catholicism is of particular interest to me.

    Anyway, thanks for looking it up for me. I didn't know how to search the whole continent. :lol: So let me ask you, does the Church generally allow abortion in cases of rape? Or was this a one time thing?
     
    Ganjababy and intellectualuva like this.
  2. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    34,783
    Trophy Points:
    113

    No, not at all. This was prevention of pregnancy. Abortion is after conception and the Church maintains that all life is sacred in all its forms, from zygote til natural death and every place in-between. As @Belle Du Jour maintained, it was an interview and not issued as an infallible statement on doctrine.

    As for heathen vibes contaminating, gurl, I'm Catholic. There are no heathen vibes that are going to destroy me. I don't believe in seeing a demon around every corner. That's bull lol. I know not everyone has had a good experience with where they are but I've been lucky. Usually, I stay far away from the religious fanatics.
     
    beingofserenity and Honey Bee like this.
  3. Galadriel

    Galadriel Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Messages:
    6,984
    Likes Received:
    9,101
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Where The Busy People Are
    Catching up on this, @Belle Du Jour someone was handing out condoms?
     
  4. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    34,783
    Trophy Points:
    113

    Yes, in the OP is the article. And I betcha that he was doing so with the previous statements from Pope Francis and earlier from Pope Benedict XVI Emeritus. What I'm looking for is WHY he was doing it but that is my guess. We cannot take things into our own hands but I do understand the previous statements from our most recent Popes in light of the present epidemic. Wish we had a canon lawyer in our midst to elaborate on this. Hmmm, you know, I know of one...going to ask him and see what he says. If I can copy and paste the reply, I'll do so.
     
    Galadriel likes this.
  5. Galadriel

    Galadriel Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Messages:
    6,984
    Likes Received:
    9,101
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Where The Busy People Are
    I'll do some research as well.
     
  6. Belle Du Jour

    Belle Du Jour Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2005
    Messages:
    13,482
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    21,816
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My suspicion is this has something to do with the fact the Cardinal Burke is the spiritual sovereign of the order and Pope Francis is upset because Burke is one of the four bishops involved in the dubia regarding the ambiguity of Amoris Laetetia. Francis is, IMO, being petty. But I'm sure more will be coming out. Pray for Cardinal Burke who is being persecuted by several of his brother bishops for being orthodox!
     
  7. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    34,783
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Thank you for expanding the discussion. This is a Wikipedia, granted, but that doesn't preclude any value...depends. Reading to understand. Note, this article is not finished:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoris_laetitia


    [Excerpt]
    Initial reactions
    Initial reactions highlighted several of the issues of contemporary morality and church practice that had proved contentious during the synods' presentations and discussions, surrounding access to communion, divorce, sexual mores, and pastoral practice.

    Since the release of Amoris laetitia, various media outlets reported what many were calling a potential change in Church teaching on the ability of remarried and civilly divorced to receive the Eucharist, to which they said Francis alluded in footnote no. 351,[12] which reads (with footnoted body text in italics):

    Because forms of conditioning and mitigating factors, it is possible that in an objective situation of sin – which may not be subjectively culpable, or fully such – a person can be living in God’s grace, can love and can also grow in the life of grace and charity, while receiving the Church’s help to this end.

    351. In certain cases, this can include the help of the sacraments. Hence, “I want to remind priests that the confessional must not be a torture chamber, but rather an encounter with the Lord’s mercy” (Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii Gaudium [24 November 2013], 44: AAS 105 [2013], 1038). I would also point out that the Eucharist “is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak” (ibid., 47: 1039).[13]

    Reports addressed the apparent contradictions between this footnote and Pope John Paul II's apostolic exhortations Familiaris consortio and Reconciliatio et paenitentiae. When asked in a press conference how Francis' work related to Familiaris consortio, which states that remarried divorcees must live "as brother and sister" in order to take communion, Cardinal Schönborn said that the former builds on the earlier work: "there is no change, but there is development".[11] Some traditionalists, notably Kazhakstani Bishop Athanasius Schneider and British advocacy group Voice of the Family, have criticized Francis' exhortation. Voice of the Family has called on him to "recognise the grave errors in the recently published Apostolic Exhortation, Amoris Laetitia, in particular those sections which will lead to the desecration of the Holy Eucharist and to the harming of our children, and to withdraw the Apostolic Exhortation with immediate effect."[12] Edward N. Peters, a referendary of the Apostolic Signatura, wrote that Amoris laetitia "is not a legislative document, it contains no legislative or authentic interpretative language, and it does not discuss Canon 915." So, the canon was not changed: Catholics in irregular marriages should not receive Eucharist.[14][15]


    ____________________________
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2017
    Honey Bee likes this.
  8. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    34,783
    Trophy Points:
    113
  9. Belle Du Jour

    Belle Du Jour Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2005
    Messages:
    13,482
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    21,816
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Unfortunately, the pope is refusing to clarify the questionable statements in AL. And several bishops ARE running with it and using it as an opportunity to push their liberal agenda. One Cardinal recently said the laity should determine whether they should receive. :nono: Some bishops are recognizing same sex "marriages" and giving these people access to the Sacrament. The real issue is people don't believe in the Real Presence or don't understand the reality of the Eucharist.
     
    Honey Bee likes this.
  10. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    34,783
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And that wasn't the intent of his document at all, as I see it. Those questionable bishops would always have been perched to strike anyway. What seems to be an initiative of some sort to come to even deeper understanding of mercy and the sacrament of penance is being dismissed and taken out of context from fear of positive change as well as being abused from those with evil ulterior motive against orthodoxy. But I think the pre-annulment days might have produced the same hysteria. Plenty think we should not grant them. I don't believe that we'll strike down sacramental marriage at all. Maybe there is some middle ground, who knows?
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2017
  11. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    34,783
    Trophy Points:
    113
    For information for those interested:


    http://www.stmaron.org/multimedia/

    A Conversation between Bishop Gregory Mansour, Bishop of the Eparchy of Saint Maron of Brooklyn and Father Boniface Hicks, OSB, a Benedictine monk from Saint Vincent Archabbey, in Latrobe, Penn. Bishop Gregory Mansour and Father Boniface discuss Amoris Laetitia.

    .
     
  12. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    34,783
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Is it any coincidence that Pence is a defector from orthodoxy? He didn't even shake the Black man's nor his Vice President's hand at the inauguration. That was a public display of uncharitable arrogance...so unbecoming of a leader. He said he found the truth. You work your way up to orthodoxy, not backwards. For those who've never had it, they are fine in the truth that is presented to them. He had it and threw it away? Now it's evident that his high social club is a front for name-it-claim-it heresy.
     
  13. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    34,783
    Trophy Points:
    113

    ............................
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
  14. Farida

    Farida Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Messages:
    14,767
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    27,789
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Do some Catholics worship idols? Yes.

    But there is a distinction for many. If I saw you look at a picture of a loved one; kiss it; get mad if someone touched it - I would not think you are actually in love with the picture, that you have a physical relationship with the picture. It is merely a representation of the person you love.

    If a Catholic or person kisses a rosary for what it represents...for loving God..not because the person believes the rosary IS God. That is not idolatry.

    But some people blur the lines and some cultures also infiltrate religion. The Catholics I saw in Kenya did not treat Mary the same way I see the Mexicans and Guadalupe...
     
  15. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    34,783
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It would hard to know what's in someone's heart if you are another individual and thereby, it's difficult to judge whether someone in veneration is "worshiping" an image as a g-d.
     
    Lucia likes this.
  16. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    34,783
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Placing this here: Catholicism is not worshiping Baal of Babylon, neither is she, the Church of Jesus, desecrating the Sabbath. Jesus, the Messiah, is the L-rd of the Sabbath.


    Matthew 12New International Version (NIV)
    Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath
    12 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

    3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’a]">[a] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

    9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”

    11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

    13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

    God’s Chosen Servant
    15 Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. A large crowd followed him, and he healed all who were ill. 16 He warned them not to tell others about him. 17 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:

    18 “Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
    the one I love, in whom I delight;
    I will put my Spirit on him,
    and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
    19 He will not quarrel or cry out;
    no one will hear his voice in the streets.
    20 A bruised reed he will not break,
    and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out,
    till he has brought justice through to victory.
    21 In his name the nations will put their hope.”b]">[b]

    Jesus and Beelzebul
    22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23 All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

    24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

    25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    29 “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

    30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

    33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

    The Sign of Jonah
    38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”

    39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.

    43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”

    Jesus’ Mother and Brothers
    46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

    48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
     
    Lucia likes this.
  17. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    34,783
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There is no coercion and a church would have to vote to make such changes, I'm sure (within their own ranks). Nobody has to be anything he doesn't want to be but in the event of unity with the RCC and some Protestant Churches, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will still be the one worshiped and in the blood of Jesus, the Messiah, in the Holy Spirit. This is open dialogue and there is no forced covering together but the call to unity is from Christ Himself. We were one, holy, catholic (the meaning is "universal faith" and in Christ) and apostolic (passed down by the Apostles). Approaching unity is not forced and there are many obstacles in the way as we all iron them out. Who knows, many things might transform from what we see today from all of us. But here is an address that I heard on the radio yesterday in his actual words on the matter. I pray that this is taken in the manner in which it is given, that being of "information" to explain this ecumenical opportunity and it is neither an attempt to proselytize that that, in itself, is sinful as it does not recognize nor respect the free will of people, neither does it uphold their human dignity:

    https://zenit.org/articles/popes-address-to-ecumenical-delegation-from-germany/
    Pope’s Address to Ecumenical Delegation From Germany


    “Despite these questions that are still open, we must not be resigned but rather concentrate on the next step possible”

    February 6, 2017ZENIT StaffPapal Texts
    [​IMG]
    Pope in Paul VI Hall: Copyright Photo.Va - Archives L'Osservatore Romano)

    At 10 o’clock this morning, Pope Francis received in audience an Ecumenical delegation of the Evangelical Church of Germany. Here is a translation of the Pope’s address to those taking part in the meeting.

    * * *

    Dear brothers and sisters,

    I am pleased to welcome you and I greet you warmly. I thank the regional Bishop Bedford-Strohm for his kind words – ein Mann mit Feuer im Herzen – and I am happy for Cardinal Marx’s presence: that the President of the German Episcopal Conference accompanies the delegation of the Evangelical Church in Germany is fruit of a long-standing collaboration and an expression of a matured ecumenical relation over the years. I hope you will go ahead on this blessed path of fraternal communion, proceeding with courage and determination towards an ever fuller unity. We have the same Baptism: we must walk together, tirelessly!

    It is significant that, on the occasion of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, Evangelical and Catholic Christians take up the occasion, of the common commemoration of historical events of the past, to put Christ again at the center of their relations. In fact, “the question of God,” on “how there can be a merciful God” was the “profound passion, the mainspring of Luther’s life and his entire journey” (cf. Benedict XVI, Meeting with the Representatives of the Evangelical Church in Germany, September 23, 2011). What animated and made the Reformers anxious was, at bottom, to point out the way to Christ. It is what must be at heart for us also today, after having undertaken again, thanks be to God, a common path. This year of commemoration offers us the opportunity to take a further step forward, looking at the past without rancor, but according to Christ and in communion with Him, to propose again to the men and women of our time the radical novelty of Jesus, God’s limitless mercy: precisely what the Reformers at their time wished to stimulate. The fact that their call to renewal sparked developments that led to divisions among Christians was certainly tragic. Believers no longer felt themselves brothers and sisters in the faith, but adversaries and competitors: for too long they have fueled hostility and were avid in fights, fomented by political and power interests, sometimes without having the least scruples in using violence against one another, brothers against brothers. Today, instead, we thank God because finally, “we have put down all that is a burden,” and “we run”, fraternally, “with perseverance on the course that is before us, keeping our gaze fixed on Jesus” (Hebrews 12:1-2).

    I am grateful to you because, with this gaze you have the intention of approaching together, with humility and frankness, a past that grieves us, and of sharing soon an important gesture of penance and reconciliation: an ecumenical function entitled “To Heal the Memory — To Witness Jesus Christ.” Catholics and Evangelicals in Germany, can thus respond in prayer to the strong call that you perceive together in the country of origin of the Reformation: to purify the memory in God to be renewed interiorly and sent by the Spirit to take Jesus to the men of today. With this sign and with other ecumenical initiatives planned this year – such as the joint pilgrimage to the Holy Land, the joint Biblical congress to present together the new translations of the Bible and the Ecumenical Day dedicated to the social responsibility of Christians – you have in mind to give a concrete configuration to the “Feast of Christ” that, on the occasion of the commemoration of the Reformation, you intend to celebrate together. May the rediscovery of the common source of faith, the healing of the memory in prayer and in charity, and concrete collaboration in spreading the Gospel and serving brothers be impulses to proceed still more speedily on the way.

    It is the reality of the one Baptism that makes us brothers and sisters and in the common listening to the Spirit, we are able to appreciate, in a now reconciled diversity, the spiritual and theological gifts that we received from the Reformation. Last October 31 at Lund, I thanked the Lord for this and asked forgiveness for the past; for the future, I wish to confirm our call to witness the Gospel together and to continue on the path to full unity. Doing so together, the desire is also born to advance of new ways. Increasingly we learn to ask ourselves: can we share this initiative with our brothers and sisters in Christ? Can we undertake together another stretch of the way?

    The differences in questions of faith and morality that still exist, remain challenges on the path towards visible unity, for which our faithful long. Spouses that belong to different confessions feel the pain especially. We must commit ourselves wisely, with insistent prayer and all our strength, to overcome the still existing obstacles, intensifying the theological dialogue and reinforcing collaboration between us, especially in the service of those that suffer greatly and in the protection of the threatened creation. Jesus’ urgent call to unity (cf. John 17:21) comes to us, as well as the entire human family, in a period in which grave lacerations and new forms of exclusion and marginalization are being experienced. Because of this too, our responsibility is great. Great!

    In the hope that this meeting will ultimately enhance communion between us, I ask the Holy Spirit, architect and renewer of unity, to fortify us on our common way with the consolation that comes from God (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:4) and to indicate to us His prophetic and audacious ways. I invoke from my heart upon all of you and your communities God’s blessing and I ask you, please, to remember me in prayer. I thank you so much and would like to invite you now to pray the Our Father together.

    [Original text: Italian]
     
  18. Belle Du Jour

    Belle Du Jour Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2005
    Messages:
    13,482
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    21,816
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I would be careful of accusing others of worshiping idols. (Actually most idols are not made by hands... ). I'm sure God sees the heart and understands that a person touching or kissing a statue does not think the actual statue is God. It merely raises the person's consciousness to Heaven. I bow my head when the crucifix passes by me in the procession. Clearly I'm not identifying the gold and wooden cross as my God but honoring Christ's ultimate sacrifice.
     
    Lucia and kanozas like this.
  19. Belle Du Jour

    Belle Du Jour Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2005
    Messages:
    13,482
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    21,816
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Lucia likes this.
  20. Lucia

    Lucia Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    3
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    11,836
    Likes Received:
    6,227
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Source: http://bit.ly/2lC0yj6

    When Were Joseph and Mary Married? | Catholic Answers
    When the Archangel Gabriel visited Mary and declared unto her that she was called to be the Mother of God, as we see recorded in Luke 1, her response would become the cause of the spilling of a whole lot of ink over the centuries: “How shall this happen, since I know not man?” (v. 34, Douay Rheims, Confraternity Edition).

    For Catholics this is an indication of Mary’s vow of perpetual virginity. It’s really quite simple. If Mary and Joseph were just an ordinary couple embarking on a normal married life together, there would be no reason to ask the question. Mary would have known very well how it could be that the angel was saying she would have a baby. As St. Augustine said it:

    Had she intended to know man, she would not have been amazed. Her amazement is a sign of the vow (Sermon 225, 2).

    But Protestants do not see it as quite so simple. Reformed Apologist James White gives us an example of the most common objection to our “Catholic” view of this text:

    Nothing about a vow is mentioned in Scripture. Mary’s response to the angel was based upon the fact that it was obvious that the angel was speaking about an immediate conception, and since Mary was at that time only engaged to Joseph, but not married, at that time she could not possibly conceive in a natural manner, since she did not “know a man” (Mary—Another Redeemer? p. 31.).

    Among the errors in just these two sentences (I counted four), there are two that stand out for our purpose here.

    Error #1: Mr. White claims Mary was engaged to St. Joseph.

    There was no such thing as engagement (as it is understood in modern Western culture) in ancient Israel. The text says Mary was “betrothed” or “espoused” (Gr.—emnesteumene), not engaged. Betrothal, in ancient Israel, would be akin to the ratification of a marriage (when a couple exchanges vows in the presence of an official witness of the Church) in Catholic theology. That ratified marriage is then consummated—in the normal course—on the couple’s wedding night. So when Luke 1:27 says Mary was betrothed, it means they were already married at the time of the annunciation. If this were an ordinary marriage, St. Joseph would then have had a husband’s right to the marriage bed—the consummation.

    This simple truth proves devastating to Mr. White’s (and the Protestant's) argument. If Joseph and Mary were married—and they were—and they were planning the normal course, Mary would have known full and well how she could and would have a baby. As St. Augustine said, the question reveals the fact that this was not just your average, ordinary marriage. They were not planning to consummate their union.

    Betrothed = Married?

    For those who are not convinced “betrothed” equals “married” for Mary and Joseph; fortunately, the Bible makes this quite clear. If we move forward in time from the “annunciation” of Luke 1 to Matthew 1 and St. Joseph’s discovery of Mary’s pregnancy, we find Matthew 1:18 clearly stating Mary and Joseph were still “betrothed.” Yet, when Joseph found out Mary was “with child,” he determined he would “send her away privately” (vs. 19). The Greek verb translated in the RSVCE to send away is apolusai, which means divorce. Why would Joseph have to divorce Mary if they were only engaged?

    Further, the angel then tells Joseph:

    Do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit . . . When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife (vss. 20-24).

    Notice, Joseph took Mary “his wife,” indicating both St. Matthew and an archangel considered this couple married even though they were said to be “betrothed.” “Betrothed” is obviously much more than “engaged.”

    Moreover, months later we find Joseph and Mary travelling together to Bethlehem to be enrolled as a family according to the decree of Caesar Augustus, just before Jesus would be born. They were obviously married; yet, even then, they were still said to be “betrothed” (see Luke 2:5).

    So let's recap what have we have uncovered. First, Joseph had already taken his espoused “wife” into his home and was caring for her. Second, Scripture reveals him to be her legal husband and to have travelled with Mary to be enrolled with her as a lawfully wedded couple and family. Third, she was called St. Joseph’s “wife” by the angel of the Lord… and yet, they were still referred to as betrothed.

    Referring to Mary and Joseph as “engaged” in the face of all of this evidence would be like calling a modern couple at their wedding reception “engaged” because they have yet to consummate their marriage.

    Once the fact that Mary and Joseph were already married at the time of the annunciation is understood, Mary’s “How shall this happen…” comes more into focus. Think about it: If you were a woman who had just been married (your marriage was “ratified,” but not consummated) and someone at your reception said—or “prophesied”—that you were going to have a baby—that would not really be all that much of a surprise. That is the normal course of events. You marry, consummate the union, and babies come along. You certainly would not ask the question, “Gee, how is this going to happen?” It is in this context of Mary having been betrothed, then, that her question does not make sense… unless, of course, you understand she had a vow of virginity. Then, it makes perfect sense.

    Error #2: Mr. White claimed, “…it was obvious that the angel was speaking about an immediate conception.” And, closely related to this, Mr. White then claimed Mary asked the question, "How shall this happen...?" because she knew "at that time she could not conceive in a natural manner?"

    Really? It was obvious?

    There is not a single word in this text or anywhere else in Scripture that indicates Mary knew her conception was going to be immediate and via supernatural means. That’s why she asked the question, "How shall this happen...?" It appears she did not know the answer. How could she? Why would it ever enter into her mind? There would be no way apart from a revelation from God that she could have known. And most importantly, according to the text, the angel did not reveal the fact that Mary would conceive immediately and supernaturally until after Mary asked the question.

    But let's suppose Mary was "engaged" as Mr. White claims. There would be even less reason to believe the conception would be immediate and somehow supernatural then there would be if Mary had a vow of virginity (though there’s really no reason to think this in either scenario). An "engaged" woman would have naturally assumed that when she and St. Joseph would later consummate their marriage, they could expect a very special surprise from God. They were going to conceive the Messiah. There would be no reason to think anything else. And there would be no reason to ask the question.

    One final thought: When Mary asked the question, "How shall this happen, since I do not know man," the verb to be (Gr.-estai) is in the future tense. There is nothing here that would indicate she was thinking of the immediate. The future tense here most likely refers to… the future. The question was not how she could conceive immediately. The question was how she could conceive ever. The angel answered that question for her.

    ETA:
    betrothed in the Bible

    to promise "by one's truth." Men and women were betrothed when they were engaged to be married. This usually took place a year or more before marriage. From the time of betrothal the woman was regarded as the lawful wife of the man to whom she was betrothed (Deut. 28:30; Judg. 14:2, 8; Matt.1:18-21). The term is figuratively employed of thespiritual connection between God and his people (Hos.2:19, 20).



    Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary
    betrothed. (n.d.). Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary. Retrieved March 18, 2017 from Dictionary.com website http://www.dictionary.com/browse/betrothed
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
    kanozas, Rsgal and Belle Du Jour like this.
  21. Belle Du Jour

    Belle Du Jour Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2005
    Messages:
    13,482
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    21,816
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The mysteries of Our Lady are sadly hidden to those who refuse to allow her to be "blessed" for all generations as she proclaimed. Our Lady was immaculately conceived, remained a virgin after marriage, was assumed into heaven after her death and is the Queen Mother, interceding at the right hand of her son Jesus, like Bathsheba interceded with Solomon and like Esther interceded with Xerxes. Our Lady is throughout the Bible from Genesis (the woman who will crush Satan's head) to Revelations (the woman clothed with the sun). As the bible says, who has ears to hear, let him hear. Amen.
     
    Lucia and Rsgal like this.
  22. Lucia

    Lucia Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    3
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    11,836
    Likes Received:
    6,227
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Genesis 3:19


    [​IMG]




    [​IMG]
    Ash Wednesday
     
    Rsgal likes this.
  23. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    34,783
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The Fifth Luminous Mystery LINK

    THE INSTITUTION OF THE EUCHARIST

    1. I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
    2. Jesus took bread, blessed it: "Take and eat, this is My Body."
    3. Taking the wine: "This cup is the new covenant in my Blood, shed for you."
    4. At that eucharistic meal, Jesus celebrated the first Mass.
    5. At every Mass the sacrifice of Calvary is made present.
    6. At the Last Supper Jesus instituted the sacrament of Holy Orders to perpetuate this sacrifice.
    7. "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him."
    8. The Eucharist is a sacrifice inasmuch as it is offered up, and a sacrament inasmuch as it is received.
    9. In the Mass we offer ourselves to God, and God gives himself to us.
    10. The Mass will be fruitful in the measure of our surrender to the Father.
    Spiritual Fruit: Love of our Eucharistic Lord

    ---------

    Revisiting this, it reminds me of discussions about being bored in Mass or doubting it's true or effective etc. "The Mass will be fruitful in the measure of our surrender to the Father" because "the Eucharist is a sacrifice inasmuch as it is offered up, and a sacrament inasmuch as it is received." This is profound. Jesus gave it all, the Father sent it all, the Holy Spirit is with us and leads us to truth. If one rejects this gift, it is not because there is some inherent fault in Jesus' Church. It is because one hasn't received. As much as you put in, G-d gives more back to you.
     
    Lucia likes this.
  24. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    34,783
    Trophy Points:
    113
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/10/world/europe/pope-francis-married-priests.html?_r=0

    Pope Francis Signals Openness to Ordaining Married Men in Some Cases

    By JASON HOROWITZMARCH 10, 2017

    [​IMG]

    Pope Francis has pointed out that an element of married clergy already exists within the church, notably Eastern Rite Catholics. Credit Andrew Medichini/Associated Press
    Pope Francis this week signaled receptiveness to appeals from bishops in the remote and overwhelmed corners of the Roman Catholic Church to combat a deepening shortage of priests by ordaining married men who are already committed to the church.

    In an interview with a German newspaper, the pope made clear that he was not advocating an end to celibacy for current priests or those aspiring to join the clergy. But his seeming openness about the prospect of ordaining married men in places hardest hit by a dearth of priests was unusually explicit and brought the issue to the forefront.

    “We need to think about whether ‘viri probati’ could be a possibility,” Francis, using the Latin phrase for such “tested” men, said in an interview with the newspaper, Die Zeit. “If so, we would need to determine what duties they could undertake, for example, in remote communities.”

    For years, the pope has noted that an element of married clergy already exists in the church. Eastern Rite priests in union with Rome have married for centuries. In 1980, John Paul II created a provision by which some married Protestant ministers who converted to Catholicism could maintain their ministry. And historically, priests in the first centuries of the church were free to marry

    Continue reading the main story
    Related Coverage

    But monastic influences at the turn of the millennium led to the adoption of a celibacy requirement at the First Lateran Council of 1123, and that tradition has held ever since. It is not doctrine or dogma, but instead a code of canon law that essentially reasons that priests unburdened by spouses or children are both more reflective of Christ and devoted to pastoral demands.

    Francis, who has made clear that he sees little possibility for allowing women to be priests, called the vocation crisis an “enormous problem.”

    The issue is less a question of theology than arithmetic.

    In the United States, there are now about 2,500 Catholics per priest, compared with 851 per priest in 1972, according to the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate, which is affiliated with Georgetown University.

    The chasms are far wider in Africa, Asia and Latin America, where the faithful can go months without access to a priest and married deacons are increasingly called on to conduct the business of parishes. In Brazil, according to the center, there are roughly 8,000 Catholics per priest.

    The Rev. Thomas J. Reese, a Jesuit priest and senior analyst for The National Catholic Reporter, said that in the face of such a crisis, the church had to decide whether upholding the celibacy rule was worth depriving the faithful of Mass and confession, which can only be performed by priests. He said that while the pontiff’s most recent predecessors had hoped for a turnaround in the diminishing numbers of priests, Francis seemed eager to push the issue.

    “This is now an open topic in the church today,” Father Reese said, “whereas under John Paul II or Benedict, you could not talk about this.”

    Morning Briefing: Europe
    What you need to know to start your day, delivered to your inbox.


    Receive occasional updates and special offers for The New York Times's products and services.

    Before being chosen as pope in 2013, Francis — who was then Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio — said in remarks included in the book “On Heaven and Earth” that clerical celibacy was “a matter of discipline, not of faith. It can change.”

    In 2014, as pope, he took a step that made it easier for married men to serve as priests, when he lifted a ban imposed in 1929 that had prohibited Eastern Catholic bishops from ordaining married men to the priesthood in Australia, Canada and the United States.

    Until Francis made that change, the Eastern Rite churches could ordain married men only in their own territories.

    Also in 2014, Bishop Erwin Krautler, of Xingu, Brazil, a territory where only 27 priests served 700,000 Catholics, brought up the issue with Francis. The bishop told an Austrian newspaper at the time that the pope had told him such a change could not be done by Francis in Rome, but that “local bishops, who are best acquainted with the needs of our faithful, should be ‘corajudos,’ that is ‘courageous’ in Spanish, and make concrete suggestions.”

    Soon after, in 2015, Bishop Leo O’Reilly of Kilmore, Ireland, said that the pope’s message to be creative in confronting priest shortages had led him to establish a commission on the possibility of ordaining married men. “I think the other bishops would be open to the idea,” he told the Catholic Herald newspaper.

    Veteran observers of Francis have noted that the pope appears especially willing to broach the issue.

    In August, the papal biographer Austen Ivereigh wrote on the Catholic news website Crux that “Francis has given many signals of his willingness to open up the question of ordaining married men, even encouraging local Churches to put forward proposals.”

    Any formal discussion of changing the rule would surely engender opposition among a small but intense group of canon lawyers and traditionalists upset about Francis’ flexibility on issues of church law. In the meantime, the 80-year-old pope seems to be using the media to plant the idea directly with the faithful.

    “The glacier is moving forward, but there are forces that want to move it back,” said Paul Bumbar, a former priest and the co-secretary of Corpus, an organization founded more than 40 years ago by men who had left the priesthood to marry. “And Francis has made it clear that he does not want to stop. I just pray his health holds out.”
     
  25. Lucia

    Lucia Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    3
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    11,836
    Likes Received:
    6,227
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is a tricky subject, ordaining married men or allowing Preists to marry. There's a lot to consider:

    Would all Preists then just jump at the chance leaving us with no unmarried Preists?

    Would it really create an upward surge in the number seminarians actually taking their vows to be Preists?

    How will these married Preists balance the pull and responsibility of a wife, children, Priesthood and serving the parish all at the same time?

    What about a celebrate preist being completely devoted to God and his works?
    How will this affect high level preist work like exorcists?

    (Who can't have small children or pregnant wives at home when doing their work because women and children especially pregnant women are targets for demons being cast out)

    Does that mean no more exorcists ? even though there's been an uptake in demonic activity in the last ten years.

    Does that then open the door to allowing homosexual marriages and relationships?
    Where will the line be drawn, certain orders or types of Preists like exorcists, or high level scholars, bishops cardinals and popes must be celibate?

    Could this be a deception of the enemy to open spiritual doors into the church and cause more havoc trying to destroy the Catholic Church?

    And I'm not a canon expert or biblical scholar and I thought of all these questions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  26. Lucia

    Lucia Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    3
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    11,836
    Likes Received:
    6,227
    Trophy Points:
    113

    I also don't see Anglos in some parts of the US venerate Mary with pomp and circumstance as Italians, Brazilians, Mexicans or latins in general do. I don't think that means certain groups are deluded into thinking that Mary is a god, or that they are "worshipping" her. To clarify: It's just their way of venerating, honoring, pay homage to her, but we don't adore or worship her.

    Articles blogs explaining this better

    http://bit.ly/2mZeuTw


    http://bit.ly/2mCpRgF


    Yes this. ^^ well said! Power and Money are some of the biggest idols of all time among other things.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
    kanozas and Belle Du Jour like this.
  27. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    34,783
    Trophy Points:
    113
  28. Belle Du Jour

    Belle Du Jour Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2005
    Messages:
    13,482
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    21,816
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I strongly believe in a celibate priesthood. They are married already--to the church. No way they could be good husbands and fathers and serve the laity. Hoping this was just another Francis-ism taken out of context. :nono:
     
    Lucia likes this.
  29. Lucia

    Lucia Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    3
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Messages:
    11,836
    Likes Received:
    6,227
    Trophy Points:
    113
     
    Shimmie likes this.
  30. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    8,712
    Likes Received:
    34,783
    Trophy Points:
    113

    Agnus Dei , Samuel Barber

    I've always loved it in many of it's renditions. You should also try the Cleveland Quarter's version. It's just plain LOVELY!!!!!
     
    Shimmie and Lucia like this.

Share This Page