Was it Andre?

notsomebody

Active Member
That said 4ab hair doesn't grow very long because it eventually knots and breaks? I saw something about it on this board a few days ago and wanted to respond but wasn't able to get back on. Well, I have a combination of 4a and 4b hair and I say that long hair is completely possible. It takes more effort and more diligent maintenance but I am proof that it can be done. Before my set back, I had bra strap length hair.
I did have the problem with individual strands getting little tiny knots in them but once I noticed them I was able to figure out what caused them.
IF you have this problem, it is very important that you put down the hair comb. I know its a lot easier said than done, but the knotting is happening when you comb your hair. So deep conditioning and hot oil treatments become your best friend. Wet setting also helps (roller setting is best, but can be really time consuming).

How the knots happen:
4ab hair has several very tight curl patterns. Some of the curls will be in a tight S shape while others are in a Z or corkscrew shape. What tends to happen is these curl patterns are in layers. Like one type of curl will be close to the scalp, another type will be just on top of that and then another type will be on top of it. Usually, the individual strands are so thin or fine that it is not obvious just how thick (as in amount) the head of hair is. Well, when you comb the hair the curl bounces back and in some cases wraps around itself just a tiny bit. The next time the comb comes through you have tied the knot in the strand.
The best prevention is to get a regimen that cuts back on how much combing you have to do for your hair. On those few occasions when you absolutely have to comb it (say on a wash day), you should do it carefullly.

Here is what I do:

Section the hair in as many as I possibly can. Apply a leave in. I spray the ends with the fantasia IC hair repair (I think thats the name its in a clear spray bottle and has the picture of a mended split end on it). Then I spray the lenght (lightly with Ion anti frizz leave in) and apply profective break free. Breakfree gives my hair amazing slip when its wet.
Then slowly comb the hair starting at the ends to detangle and work your way up. As you start to comb downward through the length, follow the comb with your other hand to smooth the hair and help keep the curl from bouncing back into place. This is a lot easier if your hair is in sections because you can basically hold your hair straight as the comb comes through so long as your hand follows the comb downward.

If you need to apply more product do so. Also, if at any point you become impatient - PUT THE COMB DOWN. Instead opt for a quick set like pony tail, bun or twist and leave your hair alone until you are ready to deal with it. I never try to do anything to my hair when I am tired or angry or frustrated becuas I always end up taking it out on my hair.

Anyway, this post got much longer than I intended. This method has done away with knots in individual strands, which has cut down on how much I have to cut, which in turn leads to longer hair.

If you suffer from this problem I would love to know what you do to combat it or if this method is of any help to you.
 

Crysdon

Well-Known Member
Funny you should mention this. I don't have 4a/b hair, but when I combed my hair this morning, I noticed a knot in one of my strands. Thanks for the tip.
 

Integrity

Active Member
yes, good tips. i have given up combing all my hair in one go. i section into 7-8 and comb thru and apply my moisturizers to each section. its gentler on my hair plus i can ensure each strand of my hair is gets treated.
 

Valerie

Well-Known Member
Dear Notsomebody
Thank you very much for that information. I have type 4b hair and my hair is now about 10 inches. I measured it from my hair line. I have been natural since February 2002. As you say type 4a/b can grow long, but it needs time, patience and creativity, also supplements can help to prevent breakage. There are lots of women walking around with long naturals or relaxed hair, but they would not get into his book, because if they did, the whole myth about black hair not growing very long, will be shot to pieces, and the weave industry and parts of the hair industry will be closed down overnight. The hair industry particular makes money from black insecurities, and again there is a good hair, bad hair business. It seems that type 1,2,3a,b and c goes long, but type 4a/b does not.
 

Valerie

Well-Known Member
That woman on the cover of the book, "Black Hair: Art, Style and Culture" took four years to grow her hair that long. She was on the cover of Essence about 1992 or 93 January issue. If her hair was stretched out it would be even longer, there is a little girl, if you visit cornrows and co website, in children's section has very long hair. Andre's book was good and it was good he had a list of the different hair types. But if you visit other hair sites, would he put those ladies in his book, they have long hair. I don't think he would. Black women must always be the poor victims. But we on this board are the victors.
 

LondonDiva

New Member
That's great advice NSB I think you should send this info over to Andre himself and make him eat his words.

I'll pass this info onto my friend who's natural.
 

notsomebody

Active Member
Do you think that if I sent this to him without any type of animosity that he would take it seriously and maybe use it or develop his own technique based on it?
I would love it if someone who has as much impact on the hair care industry as he does would offer more helpful information to those of us with this type of hair. I am so disappointed in most approaches that hair care books take. They seem to offer all of this information about determining what type of hair youhave but very little in the way of managing it- especially if it is of the most difficult type to maintain.
It seems with all of the money that we spend on hair care we should get more out of the industry than we do.
 

nijilah

New Member
I agree. I am 3C/4a - the front 3C and the back 4a and I can tell you that the back of my hair grows fast, especially the center part of the back. Last month, I gave myself a 1-3 inch trim according to how bad my ends looked. The new cold weather had done some damage. Yesterday, my bf pulled the back of my hair to see its length because he said that it looked longer. Now, my hair is layered. Anyway, the center part of the back of my hair which I know that I cut one inch above bra strap is now just above the bottom of my bra strap! All of my life, the back of my hair has been significantly longer than the front and definitely grows faster. I don't know why but that is just my hair growth pattern.

Hope this will be an inspiration for the 4a's.
 

MSCHICHI

New Member
Notsomebody-

You totally hit the nail on the head about the knot problem.

My husband notices these knots in my hair, but almost always when I am playing with it -i.e. twisting it around my fingers, and pulling at it. I noticed that they were already half formed, but this was because I had allowed my hair to become dry, and I made them worse by feeling my hair. I don't feel the need to pull at it when it is moisturized properly.

Anyone who has natural 4ab hair and wants to see maximum length and manageability, must be very careful to combat the 2 main causes of these knots-dryness and manipulation. Even average manipulation for other hair types can be too much for us. I think the biggest issue is the need we often feel to "tame" our hair into submission when it is in its curly state. We can treat it very differently when straightened. With a press, I have no problems with these knots. I believe this is also the reason why Mr. Johns strongly advocates pressing/thermally straightening hair-so the knots won't be an issue.

We need to just leave hair in its curly state alone most of the time. That is why I hate it when I hear people talk about those with natural 4ab hair, and say they need to go comb it or something. Regular combing is not good at all for these hair types, nor is it necessary.

This thread, (as well as Valleygirl's leave in use of it) prompted me to go get some Pantene Smooth and Sleek. I haven't been as vigilant lately as I need to about keeping my hair moisturized.

We need to stay out of our hair as much as possible, and bathe it in a moisturizing product with excellent slip, so as to discourage tangling. After I initially detangle it with my cholesterol or regular conditioner, nothing helps finish the detangling process better than Terax Crema. This stuff is expensive but worth it. But I only use a little, and I need another product to keep up the softening effect. After this I will start putting in the Smooth & Sleek and leave it in.

I am still dumbfounded as to why Andre has not figured out how to care for the hair to prevent these knots (as we have), but would choose to just say we can't grow our hair long too. I am disappointed in him because I think he should be especially knowledgeable and concerned about AA hair. He is also such a strong voice in the industry, that other people will just follow suit and tell unsuspecting people the same thing, simply because they don't feel like taking the time out to properly care for our hair.
 

Kitkat

Active Member
Repeating what another poster said, you've hit it right on the head. I have noticed the occasional knot in my hair, and I've always wondered what the heck that was all about. Makes perfect sense. I limit my manipulation to finger combing my hair when I roller set, though I will comb my hair with a wide tooth comb once per day. I have been getting carried away and combing two or three times a day, so I'd better check myself with that and go back to 1x/day. Thanks for that valuable info, NotSomebody!

And if it was Andre who said that 4a/4b hair can't grow long, he ought to be ashamed of himself.
 

Honey Vibe

The Good Physician
I believe moisture is the key to preventing these knots. I had them all last winter and (genius at work) decided to just snap them right off instead of trying to prevent them. I don't even want to think about how many inches I COULD HAVE had I taken the time to research the problem.

I agree that moisture is the key to preventing these knots. I also think that any abrasion will cause 4ab hair to double back over itself and knot, so I try to put hats on carefully and sleep on the side of my face. Y'see, I never have knots on the top of my head -- the area that receives absolutely no manipulation -- but they always show up in the back, below the crown.

I don't see any reason to confront Walker over his ignorance. I'm sure he's received enough flames since the book has been published for that infamous line.
 

notsomebody

Active Member
I'm glad that this thread has been helpful. I know that for me its all about MY care of my hair and not as much about what the "experts" say.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I don't see any reason to confront Walker over his ignorance. I'm sure he's received enough flames since the book has been published for that infamous line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that there is no need to confront him. I would just really like it if he were informed about the fact that 4a/b hair is not just the troublesome hair that never acheives length. If I had read his book before I found the LHL multicultural board and then the subsequent incarnations of this board, I would have given up hope of ever having long hair. Now I know its about knowing what my hair can do. After I found these discussion boards I learned that the only person who can say for sure how long my hair can grow is me. I just think that Andre would be a better expert if he also believed that. As for sharing my info with him, I would never want to be confrontational or nasty, I would just like to inform.
 

CurlyCrly

To each his own. :)
What he said was NATURAL kinky hair is hard to grow to great lengths unless it's braided or dreadlocked. How many of you have seen someone with natural LONG hair that was not consistently worn in a braided or dreadlocked style? I have not seen very many, so I AGREE with what he said.
 

CurlyCrly

To each his own. :)
Den1 has long natural hair too.

I primarily see someone with long type 4 natural hair if they have locs. I work with someone with below bra strap locs.
 

godivabap

New Member
Natural 4a hair can grow long. I have seen it done and I myself am proof. The problem is when people try to apply straight hair principles to it. Less combing and only combing when wet or moist, wearing protective styles and moisturizing all help in retaining length. The problem with Andre and all those other hair care book "experts" is that they have obviously not done enough research with Natural hair to know that it is not the fragile, dried up mess that they want black women to believe it is.
 

Faith

New Member
I have natural, mid back 4a/b hair (about 24" from front hairline) and I noticed the only way I could grow it long was to have it braided or up in some protective style. I agree with godivabap....less combing and more moisture helps.
 

CurlyCrly

To each his own. :)
He didn't say that it couldn't be done. He said that it was difficult. I agree with what you said about the handling of natural hair in a straight-hair manner. That is definitely detrimental to the hair's health and part of the reason why people have difficulty attaining length. However, I have seen more relaxed long-haired people than natural long-haired people. This may be due to there being more relaxed haired people than natural. I've seen raggedy-haired people on both sides.
 

Ennyaa

Member
Yeah how could I forget THAT beautiful head of hair. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

And godiva I think you're right. I'm not natural but texturized and I cringe a little whenever I have to comb my hair and I ONLY do that when it's wet. I'm still learning how to care for my hair properly (thanks a great deal to the wonderful ladies on this board) but I've found that the less I manipulate it the more hair I keep on my head.
 

Ennyaa

Member
I looove my new texturized hair, it waves up so pretty when it's wet, and the straight ends (growing them out) are starting to annoy me. I feel like they are keeping me from getting a good twist out. /images/graemlins/ohwell.gif If I wasn't more focused on length right now I might consider cutting them off. I probably will start cutting them down after I reach my goal. Oh and after my wedding.
 

Crysdon

Well-Known Member
My cousin has 4a/4b X-tra thick hair and it grows very fast. We both got our hair cut short and her hair grew back to her shoulders 6 months later and she doesn't have the healthiest hair habits either (go figure).

I do believe him when he says that its drier than the other types and need more moisture, but I don't believe the part about it being difficult to grow.
 
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