What The Bible Says About The Church

Discussion in 'Christian Fellowship' started by Laela, May 19, 2016.

  1. Laela

    Laela Between point A and point B

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    WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT THE CHURCH

    INTRODUCTION: THERE ARE SEVERAL HUNDRED DIFFERENT CHURCHES IN EXISTENCE IN AMERICA THAT CLAIM TO BE "CHRISTIAN." THEY ALL CLAIM TO BE THE CHURCH THAT JESUS BUILT, OR AT LEAST A PART OF IT. MANY PRAISE THIS DIVISION. BUT THE BIBLE SAYS THAT DIVISION IS WRONG. WE NEED TO GO BACK TO THE BIBLE AND SEE WHAT IT TELLS US ABOUT THE CHURCH.
    BODY
    I. THE BIBLE SAYS THAT THE CHURCH IS NOT A DENOMINATION. A. Many believe that there is nothing wrong with denominationalism. 1. They think that there are many parts of the one "mystical church"
    2. But there is no support from the word of God for this "mystical church."

    B. The Bible clearly states that there is only ONE CHURCH. 1. Jesus promised to build only One Church. a. Matthew 16:16-182. Ephesians 4:4-"There is one body..."
    3. What is the one body? a. Ephesians 1:22-23
    b. Colossians 1:18-"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."
    c. Therefore, there must be only one church.

    C. The Bible condemns the very principle that denominationalism is built upon-division. 1. John 17:20,21-"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That there all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

    2. 1 Corinthians 1:10- "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
    3. Ephesians 4:3-"Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."
    4. I Peter 3:8-"Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another; love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous."
    5. Matthew 15:13-"But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up."

    II. THE CHURCH OF THE BIBLE HAS NO EARTHLY HEAD, ONLY A HEAVENLY ONE. A. Many churches have different heads. 1. Presidents, Bishops, Prophets, Popes/PatriarchsB. But the church of the Bible recognized only one head-Christ. 1. Ephesians 1:22-23- "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, {23} Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."
    2. Ephesians 5:22-23- "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. {23} For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."
    3. Matthew 28:18
    4. Romans 7:4-"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."

    III. THE CHURCH OF THE BIBLE HAS DISTINCTIVE ENTRANCE REQUIREMENTS. A. Many different ways of salvation for different denominations. 1. Many believe that you "get saved" and then join the church.
    2. Many vote on their prospective members.
    3. Some make the initiates go through long class to study and give approval to man-made creeds.

    B. But the church of the Bible doesn't vote on it's members. 1. Acts 2:47-"...the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."C. The action that makes one a Christian also make one a member of Christ's church. 1. Romans 10:17
    2. Hebrews 11:6
    3. Luke 13:3,5
    4. Romans 10:9,10
    5. Acts 2:38
    6. After doing these things the Lord himself adds you to the church of the Bible.

    IV. THE CHURCH OF THE BIBLE HAS IT'S MEMBERS WEAR ONLY ONE NAME- CHRISTIAN. A. Denominationalists wear various names. 1. They are named after some founder or practice.B. The name Christian is the name the New Testament uses to describe the followers of Christ. 1. Isaiah 62:1-2- "For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. {2} And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name."
    2. Acts 11:26- "And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." a. The word "called" here literally means a divine calling.3. I Peter 4:15,16-"But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."
    4. Denominational names are by their nature divisive, the name Christian is a name we call unite on.

    V. THE CHURCH OF THE BIBLE WORSHIPS IN THE WAY AUTHORIZED BY SCRIPTURE A. The church of the Bible follows the five items of worship found in the New Testament. 1. I Timothy 2:8- prayer
    2. Acts 20:7- preaching and teaching
    3. Ephesians 5:19- Singing
    4. I Corinthians 16:1,2- giving
    5. Acts 20:7- the Lord's Supper

    B. Two areas where many deviate from the New Testament pattern. 1. Singing a. No authority for instrumental music in the worship of the New Testament church.
    b. Bible command singing- is silent when it comes to instrumental music.

    2. The Lord's Supper a. While the New Testament authorizes it's partaking each first day of the week, many celebrate whenever they please.VI. CHRIST HAS A PATTERN FOR HIS CHURCH. A. God has always had a pattern for his people. 1. Hebrews 8:5- "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount."
    2. Romans 6:17-18- "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. a. The same Greek word that is translated pattern in Hebrews 8:5 is translated form in Romans 6:17. It could just have easily been translated "pattern of doctrine."3. Matthew 28:20B. God's attitude toward those who refuse to follow the pattern. 1. II John 9-11
    2. Matthew 15:7-14

    CONCLUSION: WHAT SHOULD ALL WHO ARE SINCERELY SEEKING TO FOLLOW CHRIST DO IF THEY FIND THAT THEY ARE IN MAN-MADE DENOMINATIONS? "WHEREFORE COME YE OUT FROM AMONG THEM AND BE YE SEPARATE, SAITH THE LORD, AND TOUCH NOT THE UNCLEAN THING; AND I WILL RECEIVE YOU, AND WILL BE A FATHER UNTO YOU, AND YE SHALL BE MY SONS AND DAUGHTERS, SAITH THE LORD ALMIGHTY."(2 Corinthians. 6:17-18)
     
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  2. Laela

    Laela Between point A and point B

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    I. The Bible Concept of the Church

    Ephesians 3:10,11 says the church is part of God's eternal wisdom. This shows that the church is important to God, so we should respect His will regarding it. What does He say should be our concept of the church, and does denominationalism fit that concept?

    A. Bible Meanings of the Word "Church"
    The word "church" is used two ways in the Bible:

    The church in the "universal" sense
    The "universal" church refers to the body or group of all saved people everywhere. It includes all who have been redeemed by Jesus' blood, have been forgiven of their sins, and have been born into His spiritual family. Bible examples of this usage are:

    Matthew 16:18 - Jesus promised to build His church. The church is built on Jesus and belongs to Him ("my church"). [Cf. 1 Cor. 3:11]

    Ephesians 5:23,25 - Jesus is Head of the church, and He is Savior of His body. He gave Himself for the church. So the church is the body of all people who have been saved by Christ.

    Acts 2:47 - The Lord added to the church those who were saved. The "universal" church consists of all saved people everywhere because, when God saves people, He puts them in the church. In this sense, the church is always singular.

    [See also Eph. 1:22,23; Col. 1:18,24; 1 Tim. 3:15; cf. 1 Cor. 12:12-14 to Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mk 16:16.]

    The church in the "local" sense
    The "local" church refers to a congregation of Christians in a region who have united themselves to work and worship together. According to the Bible, they have a pattern of organization, work that they are to do, and funds they use to do this work.

    In the Bible, Christians were not just members of the universal body of all saved people, but they also associated themselves into local churches. Here are some examples:

    Acts 8:1 - The church which was in Jerusalem.
    1 Corinthians 1:2 - The church of God which was at Corinth.
    1 Thessalonians 2:14 - Churches of God which were in Judea.
    Revelation 1:4,11 - The seven churches of Asia.
    Galatians 1:2 - The churches of Galatia.

    Note that, in this local sense, the word "church" can be used in the plural - "churches of Christ" (Rom. 16:16). Congregations existed in different localities, but they were not religiously divided. All had the same pattern of organization, doctrine, worship, salvation, etc.

    [See also Acts 11:22; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:1; Gal. 1:22; 1 Cor. 16:1; Rom. 16:1,4; 1 Cor. 14:33.]

    B. The Denominational Concept of the Church
    Modern denominations include many local congregations, and they claim there is one universal church composed of all "saved" people. But they add something new - the denominations. All these "saved" people in all these local churches are now divided into denominations.

    The concept of a denomination, as commonly believed today, involves all the following elements:

    * Each denomination is an affiliation or confederation consisting of a number of local churches.

    * Each denomination has its own peculiar name, doctrine, organization, plan of worship, etc., which distinguishes it from other denominations.

    * Each denomination claims it is composed of Christians, but it does not claim to contain all faithful Christians. Each denomination believes there are faithful children of God in other denominations. "There are saved people in all the denominations." "We're all going to heaven, just by different routes." "One church is as good as another." It's just a matter of personal preference, like different kinds of cars, colors of clothes, etc. So "join the church of your choice."

    Ask any informed denominationalist, and he will confirm what we have said. Ask: "Are there saved Christians in your denomination?" He will say, "Yes." Ask: "Are there Christians in other denominations, who will go to heaven?" He will say, "Yes." Ask: "Does one have to be a member of your denomination to go to heaven?" He will say, "No." So each denomination claims to consist of some Christians, but not all Christians.

    A denominational preacher once said the following in a letter to me:

    "There is only one 'holy Christian Church,' of which Christ is the Head, but it is now made up of many denominations ... But faith in Christ is the first criterion of membership in the holy Christian Church, and we feel that such believers can be found in all Christian denominations."

    C. Denominationalism Differs from God's Plan.
    God's plan involves all saved people in one universal body, yet associated together in local churches. Denominationalism changes God's plan by adding the concept of denominational affiliations - associations of local churches that contain some of the saved but not all of the saved - organizations that are more than just local churches, but less than the universal church. Denominations were unknown in the Bible. They constitute an addition, a change in God's plan. Most people can easily read their Bibles and see that this is so.

    What does God think about unauthorized changes in His pattern?
    What difference does it make? Will God be pleased with people who defend the denominational concept?

    Galatians 1:6-9 - Any man is accursed if he preaches a gospel different from what is revealed in the New Testament. But denominationalism is different from the gospel. It is nowhere authorized in the gospel.

    2 John 9 - Whoever does not abide in Jesus' doctrine does not have God. Is denominationalism part of Jesus' teaching? No! It is not revealed in His word. Therefore, those who practice this unauthorized change have not God! [See also Rev. 22:18,19.]

    Is God pleased when people follow man's wisdom instead of His?
    The church is part of God's eternal wisdom in the Bible (Eph. 3:10,11). Denominations are not in the Bible, so they must have come from men. If we participate in them, we are following man's wisdom, not God's. What does God think about this?

    Proverbs 3:5,6 - We must not lean on our human wisdom, but must trust in God to guide us.

    Proverbs 14:12 - There are ways that seem right to men, but their end is death.

    Matthew 15:9,13,14 - Human traditions and commands make our service to God vain or empty. Everything religiously which God did not plant will be

    rooted up. By whose command do denominations exist? Who planted them? Not God, but man. Hence, they make people's worship and service to God vain and they will be rooted up.

    [See also Isa. 55:8,9; Jer. 10:23; Col.3:17; 1 Cor. 1:18-25; 2:1-5.]

    II. The Bible Teaching About Unity
    Each denomination has practices that contradict and disagree with the practices of other denominations. One says only immersion is true baptism; another says sprinkling is acceptable too. One says a child of God can fall from grace; another says this is impossible, etc. Surely this constitutes religious division and confusion.

    Yet the denominational concept says God will accept all this - people in all the groups please Him and will receive eternal life. "It doesn't matter what you believe as long as you worship God sincerely," etc. Is this really what the Bible teaches?

    A. Jesus' Prayer
    John 17:20-23 - Jesus prayed for all who believe on Him to be one as He and His Father are one. Jesus, the Head of the church, prayed for unity. Denominations claim that He is their head, yet they practice division!

    Someone may claim the denominations are all part of one universal church, though they contradict one another. But is this how Jesus and His Father were one? When did the Father and Son ever disagree about what church people should be members of? or about how to worship God? or about the plan of salvation? or about the organization of the church?

    When did the Father say to the Son: "I disagree with your practices, but it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you're sincere. We're all going to the same place anyway, so just join the church of your choice"??

    In what sense were the Father and the Son "one"? John 12:49,50 says they both taught the same commandments! True Bible unity consists of everybody doing the will of the Father! Those who promote other forms of "unity," while excusing the existence of denominational division, are actually rejecting and rebelling against Jesus' prayer for unity.

    [Cf. John 14:31; 15:10; 17:17.]

    B. Division at Corinth
    1 Corinthians 1:10-13 - Paul pled with the Corinthians that there be no divisions among them (verse 10). Do denominations obey this plea? Are there "no divisions among them"? Surely they are divided, so how can anyone excuse their existence and say God will accept them?

    Is Christ divided (verse 13)? Does He contradict Himself or teach contradictory things to His followers? Surely not. Such actions would make Him a hypocrite! How then can all the denominations be truly following Him and truly accepting His headship when they contradict one another? It must be true that some people are really not following Him and that is why the division exists.

    If Paul rebuked the division at Corinth, should we not rebuke the far greater division in denominationalism? Did Paul tell the Corinthians to just overlook their differences because they were all pleasing to God anyway? Not at all! He told them to cease their divisive practices and seek unity by practicing

    the true teachings of God (read chapters 5,12-14,15, etc.)

    C. Unity of the Spirit
    Ephesians 4:3-6 - We must keep the unity of the Spirit. This means that, for the seven things listed, there is only one of each in God's true plan.

    Specifically, there is one true God and Father. Can a person be a true Christian and believe in many gods? "It doesn't matter what god you worship as long as you are sincere. Worshipers of all gods are going to the same place, so just worship the god of your choice"?! No. There are many false gods, but only one true God.

    Likewise there is only one true body and only one true faith, and the body is Jesus' church (Eph. 1:22,23; 5:23-25; Col. 1:18,24). It is just as essential to believe in only one true body and only one true faith as it is to believe in only one true God. But denominationalism takes the one true body and chops it up into many disagreeing bodies having different and contradictory faiths.

    Just as there are many false gods but only one true God, so there are many false churches and many false faiths, but there is only one true church and only one true faith.

    [See also 1 Cor. 14:33; 3:3; 12:12,13,20; Phil. 1:27; Eph. 2:16; Gal. 5:19-21; Rom. 12:4,5.]

    III. The Bible Concept of Truth
    A. An Imaginary Church
    Despite the contradictory practices in denominationalism, we are told that it does not matter what church we attend, so just "join the church of our choice." Let us make up a church and see if it "does not matter" if we attend this church.

    Suppose we had a church that taught all the following things:

    * We follow the Bible as our sole guide in religion, but we also follow the Book of Mormon, the Catholic catechism, and Jehovah's Witness Watchtower publications as authority.

    * We believe that a child of God can so sin as to be eternally lost, but we also believe that it is impossible for a child of God to so sin as to be eternally lost.

    * We believe that immersion is the only true form of baptism, but we also practice sprinkling and pouring as valid forms of baptism.

    * We believe that man is justified by faith alone, but we also teach that obedience is essential to justification.

    * We believe that the seventh day of the week is the Christian sabbath and the first day of the week is a perversion, but we also believe that the first day of the week is the Christian sabbath for worshipping God.

    * We worship the God of the Bible as our only God and Jesus as our only Savior, but we also worship the sun, moon, stars, and Satan.

    What would you think of a church that believed and practiced all these contradictory doctrines? "Ridiculous! Hypocritical!" Yes, but when different churches teach these contradictory doctrines, some people tell us it "does not matter" which we join. Isn't that also ridiculous and hypocritical?

    Consider what denominationalism says about Jesus. We are told that "you can find Jesus in any of the churches." And "there are people in all the denominations that are following Jesus." But if Jesus is found in all the churches, though they teach all these contradictory doctrines, doesn't that make Him a hypocrite? And if all the churches are following Jesus, yet they are going in opposite directions, doesn't that mean Jesus is leading people in opposite directions? When people try to justify denominations, they make Jesus ridiculous and hypocritical!

    What is the real problem with our imaginary church? The problem is that no one could believe all these contradictory doctrines because truth does not contradict itself! This is the real issue. Jesus teaches truth, and truth does not contradict itself. Denominations contradict one another. Therefore, they cannot all be teaching truth, and they cannot all be following Jesus!

    B. The Importance of Truth
    The Bible emphasizes the importance of truth.

    John 17:17 - God's word is truth.

    John 8:32 - We must know the truth to be made free from sin (v34).

    1 Peter 1:22,23 - Obeying the truth is what makes us free from sin.

    2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 - Believing error and lies will condemn us. There is one true faith, just as there is only one true God (Eph. 4:3-6).

    The fundamental consequence of denominationalism is that error is just as good as truth! If the denominational concept is true, then all denominations are acceptable to God even though they flatly contradict one another regarding worship, salvation, etc. This means error is just as good as truth and unrighteousness is just as good as righteousness. Denominationalism must be wrong because it says that error does not condemn.

    CONCLUSION
    How can people today please God and be members of the one church of the Bible, despite the existence of denominational division?

    1. Reject all groups that believe the denominational concept.
    Refuse to be part of any group that claims to be a denomination, or which excuses, justifies, or condones denominationalism. Recognize that all such groups are apostasies, departures from God's way.

    2 Corinthians 6:17,18 - Come out from among them and be separate.

    Ephesians 5:11 - Have no fellowship with the works of darkness, but reprove them. [See also Rom. 16:17; 2 John 9-11; Matt. 15:1-14; Tit. 3:10,11.]

    2. Accept and obey only the word of God in its purity and simplicity.
    Luke 8:11 - The Word of God is the seed of the kingdom.

    1 Peter 1:22-25 - We purify our souls and are born again into God's family by obeying truth (not error).

    Acts 2:38,47 - Repent and be baptized for remission of sins and God will then add you to His true church. Then find a faithful local church that follows God's true word and is not part of any denomination.

    In the first century, obeying Jesus' true gospel made people members of Jesus' one true church. It did not make them members of any denomination. That gospel can have the same effect in your life as it did in theirs, for God is no respecter of persons (Acts 2:39; 10:34,35; Mk. 16:15,16). The seed of the kingdom will produce the same result today as it did in the first century (Gal. 6:8).


    If you avoid man-made doctrines and obey just the true gospel, you too will become a member of Jesus' true body of all saved people, but you will not be a member of any denomination
    . This will put you in fellowship with all others who have truly obeyed that gospel. Those who do not so teach, are not the Lord's true church.

    Note: If you would like help in finding a faithful local church in your area or a Christian in your area to study the Bible personally with you, please click on the link at the end of this message to email us. You will be given an opportunity to inform us of your desire. Depending on where you live, we may or may not be able to help in these ways.
    (C) Copyright 1986, 1990, 2001, David E. Pratte
    Local churches and individuals may, within limits, distribute this Bible study guide for free, but not for sale. Web sites may link to this page but not reproduce it. For detailsclick here for our copyright guidelines.

    This material is available if you wish to purchase it in printed form. For a complete list of prices and other titles available, visit Light to My Path Publications.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Topics for further Bible study
    (Click for more information. Use your "back" key to return here.)
    The Importance of Jesus' Church
    Why So Much Religious Confusion and Disagreement?
    Origin of Jesus' Church & Denominations
    The Bible vs. Denominational Creeds
    How Many True Churches Are There?
    Divine Authority vs. Human Authority
    The Nature and Meaning of the Church
    How Can You Find & Identify Jesus' Church?
     
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  3. blazingthru

    blazingthru Well-Known Member

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    B. Two areas where many deviate from the New Testament pattern. 1. Singing a. No authority for instrumental music in the worship of the New Testament church.
    b. Bible command singing- is silent when it comes to instrumental music.

    This is interesting, So this is something I would want to know a little more about, I think singing and playing instruments is great during worship, but it depends on what instruments, no drums, certainly. I'mma look this up during my lunch today and get back.

    I wrote my reply my dd erased it by mistakes. I'll try to post it again this evening.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
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  4. Galadriel

    Galadriel Well-Known Member

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    Isn't "no denomination" or non-denominational in and of itself a denomination? And why is claiming "non-denomination" superior to claiming to be a Baptist or Presbyterian? (Just trying to understand the logic here).

    Also, the original post says to avoid "man-made doctrine" and follow the Gospel, but who determines what's "man-made" and what is Gospel? Also, how does this apply to the 40 year gap when Christians didn't have the written New Testament? And how does this apply to the canonization of the books of the Bible? And, how does this apply to Christian doctrines which aren't explicit in Scripture but were later clarified as doctrine (such as that God exists as the Holy Trinity)?

    Not trying to agitate, but these are honest questions I'd put forth.
     
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  5. Lucia

    Lucia Well-Known Member

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    We must always look at the context of what the verses in the Bible are talking about one line or two can easily be taken out of context and misinterpreted. Always look at the whole verse and to get an even better idea the whole chapter. If we look at who was being addressed and why we get a better meaning of the text. Now concerning the way in which something anything is used. If used in a good way meaning used according to its properly ordered nature as God has intended, used in a bad way then used against its properly ordered nature against what God has intended for that creation.

    ETA:
    Let's use a simple example: a frying pan is not mentioned in the Bible yet we use it to fry up food that doesn't make it "bad" or forbidden. Now how we use that frying pan can be more important than if it's in the Bible or not. It's use can be labeled good or bad good cooking some food, bad hitting someone with it. Also we would have to look at if using a frying pan also goes against the laws of God or go against any God given traditions.


    Refer to Psalm 150
    NIV

    1 Praise the Lord.[a]

    Praise God in his sanctuary;
    praise him in his mighty heavens.
    2 Praise him for his acts of power;
    praise him for his surpassing greatness.
    3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
    praise him with the harp and lyre,
    4 praise him with timbrel and dancing,
    praise him with the strings and pipe,
    5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
    praise him with resounding cymbals.

    6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.

    Praise the Lord.


    CEB trans

    Praise God in his sanctuary!
    Praise God in his fortress, the sky!
    2 Praise God in his mighty acts!
    Praise God as suits his incredible greatness!
    3 Praise God with the blast of the ram’s horn!
    Praise God with lute and lyre!
    4 Praise God with drum and dance!
    Praise God with strings and pipe!
    5 Praise God with loud cymbals!
    Praise God with clashing cymbals!
    6 Let every living thing praise the Lord!

    Praise the Lord!
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
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  6. Lucia

    Lucia Well-Known Member

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    Adding

    Regarding traditions

    2 Timothy 2:2

    which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

    2 Timothy 3:14-17

    But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
    16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    ^^ verses above refer to traditions handed down,and refer to Gods written word- here they are both listed as good and useful. Just because one exalts the word that doesn't make all tradition bad.


    Deuteronomy 4:9-10

    "Only give heed to yourself and keep your soul diligently, so that you do not forget the things which your eyes have seen and they do not depart from your heart all the days of your life; but make them known to your sons and your grandsons. "Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb, when the LORD said to me, 'Assemble the people to Me, that I may let them hear My words so they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.'

    Deuteronomy 6:6-7

    "These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. "You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up.

    Deuteronomy 11:9

    teach them to your sons, talking of them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road and when you lie down and when you rise up.

    2 Thessalonians 2:15

    So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

    2 Thessalonians 3:6

    Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

    Matthew 15:3-6

    And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? "For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.' "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God," read more.
    he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.


    ^^ At bolded: what Mathew is referring to hear is the Pharasees only being concerned with appearances and empty traditions more than the laws of God. The Bible doesn't condemn all traditions especially not the ones passed down from Moses and Aaron to their descendants, Jesus the disciples to all the Jews. There was no Bible then, only tradition, ritual, and law.


    Matthew 15

    Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”

    3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

    8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
    but their hearts are far from me.
    9 They worship me in vain;
    their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”

    10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand.11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”

    12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”

    13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides.[d] If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

    15 Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”

    16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

    @Laela
    @blazingthru

    Regarding man made traditions out of curiosity.
    What's your stance and/or the stance of your church on birth control and abortion?
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
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  7. blazingthru

    blazingthru Well-Known Member

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    I applied like because I agree with having a discussion, so missed that on here. Love that you have the questions. Not getting in it to much, everyone knows where I stand pretty much on Man Made Doctrines and I believe in the infallibility of the scriptures. I am part of a denomination because that has to stand apart from what others believe, that is why l am part of one. I use to belong to a Non-Denomination at one time, but I honestly, (don't beat me up) believe that is impossible, each group whether they take a name or not follow under something different then other churches, they follow parts of the bible but not all, they sprinkle instead of immersion, there is actually payment for membership and so on and so on. that makes them stand apart whether good or bad. If I can't find it in the scriptures then its not apart of what I believe, could careless if momma and her momma and her momma did it and so on, I am not doing it. Nor do I believe in what a man or a woman on a pulpit states is what we are to do, however, I do believe that certain people are more spiritually discerned or more gifted by the holy spirit in knowledge and can bring out the scriptures in more clarification. But again if I can't find it in the word of God, its trash, we are judged on the word and therefore we have no excuse.
     
  8. blazingthru

    blazingthru Well-Known Member

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    So yes, I agree with you regarding some traditions being ok. One of my traditions was that we worship. No I do not worship on the same day as my family, but worship is still apart of my life. I follow some of my parents traditions, however, if it comes up against the word, TRASH. I throw it out.

    So my church stance is the word of God. Abortion is murder, there is no way around that, its murder whether the woman was raped or not. It doesn't change the fact that you committed murder.

    Birth Control is hard, because your putting things in your body that will eventually do you harm one way or the other. Why not have faith in God, why not be a prayer warrior and rely on God for your every need. My aunt said to me, she had three children and she said that was more then enough and her womb was closed. She could not ever have anymore children, when she decided she was ready to have more she adopted. Having the children was too taxing on her body. She had faith enough to believe that God would stop her from having children and he did. Really honestly and truly "Christians" I use the word lightly do not have enough faith. God said he would supply all our needs, that we need not ask for anything from man, we go directly to the throne of Grace. If anything that is a serious lesson we should all be practicing.

    I wanted to add this scripture we are all guilty of some great sin, but look at what God says, he says so was some of you, if we accept the truth as layed out in the word then we are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11 King James Version (KJV)

    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.



    eta:but even if my church now supported those things which I consider evil, I would never abide by it.
     
  9. Galadriel

    Galadriel Well-Known Member

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    Wow, I've never heard of a church requiring paid membership. Not sure I'd be comfortable with that one, either.

    I believe in the infallibility of Scripture as well, and half the time I'm in OT forum defending Scripture and Christianity :wavey:. But not even Scripture itself tells us that we are to *only* derive our doctrines and practices from Scripture. The concept of "Sola Scriptura" or "Scripture alone" did not exist in Christianity for 1,500 years until Martin Luther. If we are to hold to just Sola Scriptura, we run into a few problems such as:

    1. Ironically, the Bible does not say only the Bible is the source of doctrine or practice.

    2. For 40 years Christians didn't have a New Testament, so on what were they basing their practices and teachings about the Messiah?

    3. If Sola Scriptura is true, then how were the 27 books of the New Testament canonized? The New Testament doesn't tell us which books belong in the New Testament.

    4. As @Lucia pointed out, the Apostles indicate that we are to hold to both the written word and the traditions they handed down to us.

    5. This also impacts Christian doctrine that are not explicitly defined in Scripture but are the centerpieces of Christian orthodoxy, such as the belief that Jesus Christ is fully human and fully God, the belief that God exists as a Holy Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). Doctrines such as these are not explained in detail in Scripture, but the foundations of these doctrines *are* in Scripture and are more clearly defined through Apostolic Tradition. According to Sola Scriptura, we would then have to reject that Jesus is divine and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons who exist as One God.
     
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  10. blazingthru

    blazingthru Well-Known Member

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    1 Praise the Lord.[a]

    Praise God in his sanctuary;
    praise him in his mighty heavens.
    2 Praise him for his acts of power;
    praise him for his surpassing greatness.
    3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
    praise him with the harp and lyre,
    4 praise him with timbrel and dancing,
    praise him with the strings and pipe,
    5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
    praise him with resounding cymbals.

    6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.

    Praise the Lord.


    CEB trans

    Praise God in his sanctuary!
    Praise God in his fortress, the sky!
    2 Praise God in his mighty acts!
    Praise God as suits his incredible greatness!
    3 Praise God with the blast of the ram’s horn!
    Praise God with lute and lyre!
    4 Praise God with drum and dance!
    Praise God with strings and pipe!
    5 Praise God with loud cymbals!
    Praise God with clashing cymbals!
    6 Let every living thing praise the Lord!

    Praise the Lord![/QUOTE]
    sorry, I Had to put this whole thing in because I am rushing. I am gearing up to go out of town and I got way to much to do before the sun sets. um, yeah so timbels are not drums, they are more like tambourines, the big question is why would all of these instruments be acceptable in the sanctuary, they would not. God is a God of order and not chaos and really when you get those drums going and all those instruments people start to lose their minds and its no longer the house of the Lord and the Lord is certainly not in the midst of that debacle. Each instruments has its purpose and for each situation called for a different instrument to be played. but I have to go more into later, this is just off the top of my head from memory. So I'll try my best to get back to this by Sunday but I'll be thinking about it while I am on the beach getting some much needed rest and fresh air and warm sun.
     
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  11. Lucia

    Lucia Well-Known Member

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    Well let me be clear on the point in general of musical instruments being used outside the sanctuary to praise God, since there's no restrictions in the Bible or traditions for that then it's OK. Also since many instruments have been invented between King David's time and now we can't expect newer instruments to be listed in the Bible.

    Now regarding the sanctuary that's a good question, I would have to ask and research about the official stance on it.
    IMO from what I have seen traditionally is that some instruments because of the types and styles of music they've originated from are acceptable and some are not appropriate or acceptable for the sanctuary. I don't think that a particular musical instrument can be labeled on its own as inappropriate without considering its origins, intentions, and how it is used than it being an innate instrument used to create music. I would be more concerned with that than the actuual instrument itself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
  12. blazingthru

    blazingthru Well-Known Member

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    Question why is everything acceptable, I could careless how much you love hard rock, I hate and despise it and would not appreciate you coming to my house to cheer me up with it. No I wouldn't at all. Yet folks think that because they like it that God does, really!!. He had given us instructions, just because all of those instruments were listed does not mean you get to play them all at one time. you don't and each praise is for different circumstances. that is what I intend to look up.
    Habakkuk 2:20
    But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him. Why would God include this in the text? there is a reason for it.

    I will also comment on the other text, but I am traveling and cannot effectively type and add what I would.
     
  13. Lucia

    Lucia Well-Known Member

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    IMO I don't think un-harmonious music would be pleasing to God either.

    Well I do know that in our church only approved official worship music can be played and sung, nothing else there's no leeway.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
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  14. blazingthru

    blazingthru Well-Known Member

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    So this to me is easy, if you did not have scripture you followed what was told to you. I posted this before, Jewish tradition was to sing the scriptures, so that is what was done in the passing of the word of God before the text was written and even after because there wasn’t copies at that time. Which is how it was, the bible was hidden in sackcloth. Revelation 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” It was not destroyed it was hidden. This is where tradition comes in. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians the Waldesen did not bend to the Church they maintain their faith. Martin was the first to post publicly and remember he could read the text openly, I will not follow these teachings because they are not in the word of God, these teachings that were coming from the Church, was not from God they were from Men to build up the Church, is it not the riches Church in the world. This church was the reason the bible was hidden in the first place, you were forbidden to look into the scriptures and even to this day many still believe that only the priest or the pastor has the final say on what goes on in their life, or worst, can explain the difficult text. But Martin was not the first, what about John Husk a century before Martin Luther, or John Wycliffe, they are called heretics but they only spoke what was in the bible that conflicted against the Traditions of the Church. Here is the big question. Where did those Traditions come from, Study more you can see what was taken place and when. There is no real discussion of religion without bringing up the Church. I apologize in advance for those who are offended. Whenever religions is brought in relation to scripture, The Church will be called into question because she would not allow the bible to be read, and when It was read it was in Latin and who could understand. Hence the word of God did go out but hidden in sackcloth, the new and the old, the first and the second witnesses.


    2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is [h]inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. Jeremiah 17:5 Thus says the Lord, “Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind And makes flesh his strength, And whose heart turns away from the Lord. Jeremiah 17:7 “Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord And whose trust is the Lord. Revelation 2:17 17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. How can we know what God’s desires are without the word of God without the bible it is our only standard to know who God is. No man/woman can tell you what God’s desire is, he has told us in his word. So yes the bible is the only standard we should live by and it is the standard whereby we will be judged.


    John 14:21

    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Hebrews 10:7 7 “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me)

    To do Your will, O God.’” John 1:14 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. How can you build your connection with God without his word, you need his word to know right from wrong. How to bless God and others and what most importantly is what pleases God. You cannot know God without his word, that is why people were so desperate to hear a word from the Lord. They gave their life to make sure the word was given and many religions do not put the word of God in the center you cannot know God without studying the word day and night.

    Matthew 5:18 “Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law.” The law of God, being a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, must forever endure, "as a faithful witness in heaven.” Not one command has been annulled; not a jot or tittle has been changed. Says the psalmist: “Forever, O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven.” "All His commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever.” Psalms 119:89; 111:7, 8.


    [/QUOTE]2. For 40 years Christians didn't have a New Testament, so on what were they basing their practices and teachings about the Messiah?[/QUOTE]

    Well you know the disciples were going around preaching about the new covenant and that the messiah had come and many were converted that is how Christianity came into fruition it was just Jews and gentiles prior to the death of Jesus on the cross. They covered almost all of the world at that time, the message continue to go out even though the church tried to seal it up it still manage to go out and is still one of the best sellers on the market today.

    [/QUOTE]3. If Sola Scriptura is true, then how were the 27 books of the New Testament canonized? The New Testament doesn't tell us which books belong in the New Testament.[/QUOTE]

    God is still in power, we rely on the power of God to know and understand the bible, you can’t put God in a box. The Christians prayed and asked God to show them which books were the books that should be canonized. Just as they prayed for each disciple or the disciples that were to be chosen to go out initially.

    [/QUOTE]4. As @Lucia pointed out, the Apostles indicate that we are to hold to both the written word and the traditions they handed down to us.[/QUOTE]

    As long as it aligns with the word of God. So Abraham did not have the word of God directly, but he had words from God, his custom was to greet strangers and provide for them as they went on their way, we know that his descendants followed the same custom, but it was in keeping with the kindness of our God those types of customs and traditions do not conflict with the word, they magnify the word in expressing love for one another, we have those examples of those who followed the law to the T but had no love for mankind, how could God use them. He could not. We can have our traditions of rising early before you prepare a meal and going out to the field and pray. This is a custom/tradition for many, it does not conflict. As long as the traditions do not conflict with the word of God what could the harm be, but when it does there is anger from God. Our holidays are a conflict to the word of God. Though they have been cloaked with religious tones, they are still not in harmony with the Scriptures. As is many customs in our churches, this is where there is a problem with following traditions; they can never go before the written word. In many of our Churches Traditions are the standard.

    [/QUOTE]5. This also impacts Christian doctrine that are not explicitly defined in Scripture but are the centerpieces of Christian orthodoxy, such as the belief that Jesus Christ is fully human and fully God, the belief that God exists as a Holy Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). Doctrines such as these are not explained in detail in Scripture, but the foundations of these doctrines *are* in Scripture and are more clearly defined through Apostolic Tradition. According to Sola Scriptura, we would then have to reject that Jesus is divine and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons who exist as One God.[/QUOTE]

    So on this I will say, it is not important to me, I will say what I believe, I believe there is God the father, God the son and the holy spirit. I believe they are in harmony but not one. I use to believe they were one, described as an EGG but I know that God the Father is that, God the Father and Jesus is the son and he is a God as well, but not to the level of God the father.

    Knowing the way of this does not impact salvation, I pray to God the father and end in the name of Jesus for he speaks for me the things that I cannot. The holy spirit understands my mutterings. I do not get caught up on the things that I do not understand that God has not openly revealed though he has revealed much. These Generations get caught up on a lot of things that have nothing to do with salvation and end up losing their very soul. I would not argue the issue, folks can study this out with greater detail if they chose too, I do not. I choose to study out living by faith and trusting in God for my every need.
     
  15. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

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    @blazingthru

    If someone doesn't actually study from Catholic sources what the Church teaches, how would they conclude what Catholics actually teach from an opposing third-party source? It's like not liking someone because Sheila said that Betty thinks she's cute (grade school analogy, sorry it's a poor one lol) or smarter or prettier than everyone else when that's not what Betty is about. Catholics definitely trust in G-d, in His scripture and in the apostolic tradition which hails from Judaism, believe it or not, by way of Moses receiving not only the written law but also the oral from G-d.
     
  16. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

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    There is an African American historic parish in New Orleans that plays in the jazz tradition during the Mass. I saw this on Youtube (hope to visit it one day...St. Augustine?) and the comments under that video by fellow Catholics were shameful. Because they are Black, it was called disgusting and such.
     
  17. blazingthru

    blazingthru Well-Known Member

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    What I speak, I speak from my own experience and I have researched the faith, I had to my children went to Catholic school, I went to mass as a child. I said this before, we would get the bible and go over homework and my daughter would fail, I went up to the school and asked her how could she fail if we took the information from the bible and she blew me out the water and said it wasn't a catholic bible, I stood there with my mouth open. But this is not private history, I learned all about this in high school. I went to school in New York Long Island, mostly Jewish. We learned everything about European history and the Church, well of course. She has done a lot. I stayed in a Convent when I was pregnant with my first child. I am not ignorant to the teachings of the Church. You do not have to be part of a faith to know much about it. Her teachings are not private, Any one can research what the Church teaches.

    Every Christian is required to do their own research of their own faith to ensure it aligns with Scripture, I did when I was a child. I would ask why do we do this and that when its forbidden in the bible, "oh it was nailed to the cross, oh the law changed." but I never found that it had, it bothered me all my life. I never stopped looking until I did. Because I found the truth in the bible and never looked back there was no need to. I could explain why I believed what I believe with the scripture. Not through traditions or what someone has said is now the new order. Really! You said it and it was blessed and now its a new order in the Church, What did God say! He hasn't made any new laws. His laws will never change. Because he does not.

    But for me, I don't care what everyone else is doing, The word says narrow is the gate that leads to life and wide is the rode that leads to destruction, (paraphrasing) If everyone is doing it then something is wrong! that is the way I look at it.
     
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  18. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

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    I remember now you saying something about that. I think you do have to be part of the faith (receiving the sacraments etc.) to truly know about it intimately although, nothing is hidden, that's for sure. I guess what I should ask is if you've considered proving that it is in line with scripture rather than the stance that it isn't - try the other in comparison? You just may see that it is definitely in line with what Jesus gave to us all. And as you mention Judaism, I was thinking about this today, too. As G-d loves all people, not all people respond to the same call or have the same purpose, of a sort. The first covenant remains though many non-Jews think it's moot. It's not and there is a very important purpose to accomplish still in the earth, which is why people adhere to the faith and don't adjust to other beliefs (traditionals...like catholics for example, the call to follow and take up Torah or the apostolic faith in succession)...unless they know, as we do here, that He is the Messiah (and in that case, one is not leaving biblical Judaism at all but obeying). I know there are rabbinical Jewish ladies who would beg to differ and I mean them no argument with this but I'm speaking in terms of those who have come to faith in Messiah and not the practice of rabbinical Judaism (not evangelical on my part either but AHC so it's not messianic Judaism which, imo, is a misnomer because it's evangelically-based. That's mostly why we call ourselves Hebrew catholics even though you can believe on a water buffalo but not Jesus and still be a "Jew" lolol!). Anyhoooo.....I don't believe Jesus agrees with that, though lol. What about all the last days Israelites who will return? They are Christians, Muslims, other faiths now.

    There is a very active and growing movement of Hebrew catholics in the world and we hope one day to have our rite of worship within the RCC. I hear you, though. Life is a journey and so is faith and it takes a lifetime to experience this ...well, life.

    How are things going after the, marital transition? It's a hard journey, I know...and I hope things are looking up for you.

    ETA: I do have a question, were you raised in a catholic home? Baptism, first communion, confirmation? Or was it holiness? I don't remember and am probably confusing two different testimonies.


    Disclaimer: I've reviewed this post several times and if there is anything believed to be contentious, please bring it to my attention and I will explain it. I do not believe that people who aren't catholic aren't g-dly nor heaven-bound and am not promoting such. Only the L-rd decides in that last day for each as we persevere to the very end according to what we are taught. This is just engagement in a discussion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2016
  19. blazingthru

    blazingthru Well-Known Member

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    I strongly do not agree, and yes I have, it had no impact on me, except to teach me to be afraid, so I again apologize if I offend anyone but the only thing I learned or put it this way the only thing that had an everlasting impact on me was fear. I had never known fear before. So please forgive me, I was never cool with it, but never knowing there is a difference between Churches that really make a difference, I put my own daughters in Catholic School. But they were smarter then me, both of them they are 7 years apart, avoided confession, both of them avoided the Eucharist. But never told me until they were grown. They went to Mass I know this because I attended mass and took them home from there on half days. But I never asked questions. Until my daughter said she wanted to be Catholic and I shut it down. No we are not going to Mass and follow that teaching because I was still angry over the different bibles. I knew the history, but didn't know what it all meant until years later.
     
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  20. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

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    You don't need to apologize and it doesn't offend me. These are personal experiences that nobody can control. So sorry you had that experience. I never have. I assumed you were baptized as catholic. My children attended catholic school and my first went from kinder to college catholic, the latter finished in secular (gurl, it's too expensive now lol). I converted and I never had a horrible experience. I must say, though, that unless one is a catholic (either through baptism and was catechized to receive First Communion or a convert) one may not receive Eucharist. The nuns and school administration have to follow the Magisterium and those who are not in full communion with the Church may receive communion. That may be why they avoided it...weren't allowed. Our bible is canonized by the Councils of the earlier Church. Here is a concise explanation: http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/didnt-the-catholic-church-add-to-the-bible

    Books were removed after the Reformation. Nobody take offense, he's indicating where we veer off in different directions and the timeline:

    "First of all, the seven books in question--Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, and Baruch--are properly called the deuterocanonical books.

    Second, the label "unscriptural" was first applied by the Protestant Reformers of the 16th century. The truth is, portions of these books contradict elements of Protestant doctrine (as in the case of 2 Maccabees 12, which clearly supports prayers for the dead and a belief in purgatory), and the "reformers" therefore needed some excuse to eliminate them from the canon. However, these books are "unscriptural" only if misinterpreted. It should also be noted that the first-century Christians--including Jesus and the apostles--effectively considered these seven books canonical. They quoted from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures that contained these seven books. More importantly, the deuterocanonicals are clearly alluded to in the New Testament.


    Third, the canon of the entire Bible was essentially settled around the turn of the fourth century. Up until this time, there was disagreement over the canon, and some ten different canonical lists existed, none of which corresponded exactly to what the Bible now contains. Around this time there were no less than five instances when the canon was formally identified: the Synod of Rome (382), the Council of Hippo (393), the Council of Carthage (397), a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse (405), and the Second Council of Carthage (419). In every instance, the canon was identical to what Catholic Bibles contain today. In other words, from the end of the fourth century on, in practice Christians accepted the Catholic Church's decision in this matter.


    By the time of the Reformation, Christians had been using the same 73 books in their Bibles (46 in the Old Testament, 27 in the New Testament)--and thus considering them inspired--for more than 1100 years. This practice changed with Martin Luther, who dropped the deuterocanonical books on nothing more than his own say-so. Protestantism as a whole has followed his lead in this regard.


    One of the two "pillars" of the Protestant Reformation (sola scriptura or "the Bible alone") in part states that nothing can be added to or taken away from God's Word. History shows therefore that Protestants are guilty of violating their own doctrine
    ."
     
  21. blazingthru

    blazingthru Well-Known Member

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    No I was not raised Catholic, my mom's sister is very devout and wanted me to be raised Catholic but my parents moved away, we lived in a very Catholic Community. we had Churches every where Catholic and we lived in a Hispanic neighborhood we all did the same thing, we went to mass, almost everyday. I wanted to be a nun, but honestly, truly i wanted to fly and I though nuns could fly. (anyone my age would get that)

    Kanozas, we will never ever agree on the teachings of the Catholic Church not ever. I can name off the top of my head the things that are forbidden in the bible that are a huge part of the Church traditions, but are removed from the Catholic Bible. Compare what the traditions are by using the HOLY BIBLE alone. I have not forgotten why I am not Catholic, I am a protester of that faith, not of people though. I am not trying to offend anyone. Everyone pretty much knows that I won't change on that issue, because I have already been down that road and did not like where it was taking me. I have been involved in many different faiths in my life and it all left me empty. Except now, I am fully satisfied that I made the right choice for me.
     
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  22. kanozas

    kanozas se ven las caras pero nunca el corazón

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    Flying nuns!!! I know! Don't worry, there is no offense. I realize we differ. I only offer this because I am asking people to consider that there are many errors of belief concerning the Catholic Church out there with few proofs that we are in error. I am not proselytizing. I don't appreciate any such attempt against myself so I will not do that to you nor anyone else but in defending the faith (not defensiveness, but offering witness), I believe that we can discuss by providing facts and comparisons. Everyone has a choice as to what they believe and proselytization is against one's free choice, free will and thus, against human dignity as it is one of G-d's gifts. It is good that you follow your own conscience. Trust, I have been in a place that was religiously weird (later this pastor found out to be doing all kinds of crazy stuff) lol and kept me bound with fear. It was HORRIBLE and I couldn't tell anyone as
    it had its grip on me. I am just very thankful that I found faith where G-d was actually calling me since childhoo. He had his caring hand on me. But it is true:


    Romans 14:5-9King James Version (KJV)
    5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

    6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

    7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

    8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

    9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2016

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