Will you go to HEll if......

[Koffie]

Yeah I'm sorry. I was saying if I am saved and go to church faithfully every Sunday but I'm sleeping with a man, I can still go to Heaven if I were to die tonite? To me that is what is implied when you say you can't lose your salvation.

I can't judge that action and say that ANYONE is going to hell, BUT I will say that you doing this, and you KNOW what you are doing is wrong and you are CHOOSING to REPETITIVELY commence to this action leads me to believe that God's judgement is underway. (I could be wrong)

To me, that is like saying "FUDGE what God thinks, I want to do this regardless and he'll forgive me" I have been in that mind frame, and I got what was due to me!

I have seen His mercy enough to say I don't want to live in sin as I used to.

I believe that many "church folks" are going straight to Hell, even ones in the pulpit. I am not saying this to judge anybody because the word already has, but in the word it is said that many folks will come to Jesus saying that they prophesized, cast out demons, among other "Christian-like things" and you know what Jesus is gonna say?:

"Your works were not authorized" "Depart from me, I never KNEW you."

As much corruption it is in the church, I believe this whole heartedly

If you need, I will go dig up Exactly where its at in the Bible.

 

[Koffie]

It's a very difficult concept to explain so bear with me on this one...

Also understand that there is a big debate in churches today about predestination vs. people choosing their destiny... so some believe in predestination and some do not...

There is a difference between being saved from sin and being one of God's chosen ones. I'm going to use myself as an example. Before I confessed with my mouth and believed in my heart that Jesus was the Son of God and Savior, I was lost to sin. Even though one may be lost to sin doesn't necessarily mean they are not one of God's chosen ones.

But all of God's chosen ones will be saved before the end of time. So if you are saved, you have nothing to worry about. You will live for eternity in Heaven once you die a physical death.

And the whole idea with predestination is the fact that God is completely sovereign. Everything happens in accordance with His will. We can do NOTHING without Him. The people who believe that they 'choose' whether they want Jesus in their life, that's not true. People may say "I'm gonna wait to accept Jesus" and things similar to that but if you REALLY carefully think about it, God governs everything we do, whether it's a bad decision/choice. Gods will is the ONLY will.People will argue how we have free will and how we get to do what we want (similar to humanism), but God controls every single thing that happens to us.

Feel free to ask questions for clarification on anything.

OK Pooh, you opened a can of worms with this one. I want to know if a man kill, or rape, or manipulate, or molest a child, does God govern that?

 

[Poohbear]

OK Pooh, you opened a can of worms with this one. I want to know if a man kill, or rape, or manipulate, or molest a child, does God govern that?

Good question!

To be sovereign, in total control, or to have full governess does not mean everything is going to run smoothly and it doesn't mean there's not going to be evil in this world. God being sovereign means that he has the power over everything. It doesn't mean "If God is so powerful, he should stop all the evil in the world". It's a very understandable feeling to have. It took me a while to grasp the concept. It doesn't mean God is evil for allowing this to happen. Just like a president/prime minister who supposedly rules over the nation... does everything run smoothly? No.

 

[Enchantmt]

As I mentioned in the original post, loss of salvation is up for debate, even among church leaders. My understanding is that our salvation couldnt be assured if it could be lost and someone will escape hell if they have ever believed in Christ as savior. Its another reason why we shouldnt the hearts of people. We dont know what could have happened to cause someone to backslide. For every person in a hard spot that draws closer to God, there will be two that run from Him. We never know what has happened in someones life to make them they way they are. Works do count tho, just not for salvation. There are scriptures that refer to rewards for good works. I may have some links at home that would explain and give scripture in reference to it, but as I said, its up for debate so for every page I find stating you can't lose it, I can find a page that will state you can. As far as believers who have backslidden, they are referred to as carnal Christians in scripture. They are out of fellowship with God so prayers may be hindered and they may face discipline until they repent. (Tho even after you repent there may still be serious consequences/discipline) but my understanding is that any discipline you receive once you have repented serves to glorify God and is more of a positive than a negative. (Its hard to explain is sorta involved and thats another topic. )There are backsliders and there are also "wolves in sheeps clothing"... folx who claim they are Christian but are not, folx who attend chuch just to cause chaos and confusion. Going to church every Sunday doesnt mean you know Jesus. The bible gives clear scripture for those types of situations. "You know them by their fruit".

 

[Koffie]

Good question!

To be sovereign, in total control, or to have full governess does not mean everything is going to run smoothly and it doesn't mean there's not going to be evil in this world. God being sovereign means that he has the power over everything. It doesn't mean "If God is so powerful, he should stop all the evil in the world". It's a very understandable feeling to have. It took me a while to grasp the concept. It doesn't mean God is evil for allowing this to happen. Just like a president/prime minister who supposedly rules over the nation... does everything run smoothly? No.

But the President or Prime minister is not ALL Powerful, and are humans built in sin and shaped in inequity as well.

 

[Poohbear]

But the President or Prime minister is not ALL Powerful, and are humans built in sin and shaped in inequity as well.

I know I know honey!!! I was just using that as an example to show that "being in control" does not mean "there will be no evil". Sorry, bad example I guess.

 

[Honeyhips]

As I mentioned in the original post, loss of salvation is up for debate, even among church leaders. My understanding is that our salvation couldnt be assured if it could be lost and someone will escape hell if they have ever believed in Christ as savior. Its another reason why we shouldnt the hearts of people. We dont know what could have happened to cause someone to backslide. For every person in a hard spot that draws closer to God, there will be two that run from Him. We never know what has happened in someones life to make them they way they are. Works do count tho, just not for salvation. There are scriptures that refer to rewards for good works. I may have some links at home that would explain and give scripture in reference to it, but as I said, its up for debate so for every page I find stating you can't lose it, I can find a page that will state you can. As far as believers who have backslidden, they are referred to as carnal Christians in scripture. They are out of fellowship with God so prayers may be hindered and they may face discipline until they repent. (Tho even after you repent there may still be serious consequences/discipline) but my understanding is that any discipline you receive once you have repented serves to glorify God and is more of a positive than a negative. (Its hard to explain is sorta involved and thats another topic. )There are backsliders and there are also "wolves in sheeps clothing"... folx who claim they are Christian but are not, folx who attend chuch just to cause chaos and confusion. Going to church every Sunday doesnt mean you know Jesus. The bible gives clear scripture for those types of situations. "You know them by their fruit".

This is true, which is why I prefaced my questions with these people are saved, and then back slid. I just didn't think you can be saved, truly saved and then back slide and still go to heaven if you died without repentance in that sin. What is the point of being required to live a Holy life if you can do this.
BUT, God is merciful, and he decides who to grant mercy to.

I also diagree with the predestination thing. What is the point of evangelism. Why does God want us to spread his word. I think it takes away the hope and faith in God. If it is predetermined who will get into Heaven, how do you know if it is you? I think it also takes away from living HOly too. If I know I'm going to be saved, then I can do what I want up to a few seconds before dying and squeeze right on in.
Plus God did give us free will.

Oh, I'm not trying to insult anyone, I just don't get it. Some I'm going to step away and do some studying about it.

 

[Koffie]

As I mentioned in the original post, loss of salvation is up for debate, even among church leaders. My understanding is that our salvation couldnt be assured if it could be lost and someone will escape hell if they have ever believed in Christ as savior. Its another reason why we shouldnt the hearts of people. We dont know what could have happened to cause someone to backslide. For every person in a hard spot that draws closer to God, there will be two that run from Him. We never know what has happened in someones life to make them they way they are. Works do count tho, just not for salvation. There are scriptures that refer to rewards for good works. I may have some links at home that would explain and give scripture in reference to it, but as I said, its up for debate so for every page I find stating you can't lose it, I can find a page that will state you can. As far as believers who have backslidden, they are referred to as carnal Christians in scripture. They are out of fellowship with God so prayers may be hindered and they may face discipline until they repent. (Tho even after you repent there may still be serious consequences/discipline) but my understanding is that any discipline you receive once you have repented serves to glorify God and is more of a positive than a negative. (Its hard to explain is sorta involved and thats another topic. )There are backsliders and there are also "wolves in sheeps clothing"... folx who claim they are Christian but are not, folx who attend chuch just to cause chaos and confusion. Going to church every Sunday doesnt mean you know Jesus. The bible gives clear scripture for those types of situations. "You know them by their fruit".

This is what I am trying to say. How are you gonna bear good fruit if you are sleeping around with half the congregation and Lord knows who else, then turn around and swindle money from your job, produce a child from an extramarital affair, and spread STD's?

I have witnessed the "church folk" commence to such actions.

 

[Poohbear]

I can't judge that action and say that ANYONE is going to hell, BUT I will say that you doing this, and you KNOW what you are doing is wrong and you are CHOOSING to REPETITIVELY commence to this action leads me to believe that God's judgement is underway. (I could be wrong)

To me, that is like saying "FUDGE what God thinks, I want to do this regardless and he'll forgive me" I have been in that mind frame, and I got what was due to me!

I have seen His mercy enough to say I don't want to live in sin as I used to.

I believe that many "church folks" are going straight to Hell, even ones in the pulpit. I am not saying this to judge anybody because the word already has, but in the word it is said that many folks will come to Jesus saying that they prophesized, cast out demons, among other "Christian-like things" and you know what Jesus is gonna say?:

"Your works were not authorized" "Depart from me, I never KNEW you."

As much corruption it is in the church, I believe this whole heartedly

If you need, I will go dig up Exactly where its at in the Bible.

See, you have a high level conviction of sin, where you know what you are doing is wrong and you feel very bad about doing the sin and you tunr away from it.

The people you are talking about who are hypocrites, their level of conviction may be very low.

Christians are at different levels in their walk with Christ. It may take anywhere from a split second to years for someone to turn away from a sin.

But those who REMAIN and continue in a sin, their salvation is questioned.

 

[Poohbear]

I also diagree with the predestination thing. What is the point of evangelism. Why does God want us to spread his word. I think it takes away the hope and faith in God. If it is predetermined who will get into Heaven, how do you know if it is you? I think it also takes away from living HOly too. If I know I'm going to be saved, then I can do what I want up to a few seconds before dying and squeeze right on in.
Plus God did give us free will.

This is a very good question which I have asked several times before grasping predestination.

Evangelizing is a command for all Christians to do. To me, evangelizing means spreading the good news about Jesus so others would come to know him and 'accept' him. This in fact is not totally true. Christians (including myself) have grown up in the church to believe that we can choose to 'accept' Jesus as our Lord and Savior. God decides when that happens in our lives. Evangelizing actually lets God's chosen ones (who are lost in sin, not saved yet) know about Jesus. Another purpose of evangelism is to give glory to God.

And please explain how "God gave us free will"???

 

[Koffie]

And please explain how "God gave us free will"???

I will say this. I have made some decisions that I wish God hadn't have let me make. Others have told me that God gave me free will to do what I did. I say that I wish the moment I was tempted to make that decision is when I wished God would have snatched my black behind out of the situation and taken away my free will.

 

[Enchantmt]

Here is a couple of links on predestination. This is rather involved. LOL..have fun... ... The first link is probably the most userfriendly and straight forward. Just do a search on predestination and you will find tons of stuff.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/predestination.html

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-Q-11.htm

http://www.psalms119.org/fwvel.html

 

[Poohbear]

Here is a couple of links on predestination. This is rather involved. LOL..have fun... ... The first link is probably the most userfriendly and straight forward. Just do a search on predestination and you will find tons of stuff.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/predestination.html

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-Q-11.htm

http://www.psalms119.org/fwvel.html

Thanks for the links. Now I see that God did give us free will from the scriptures pointed out! I just wanted someone here to show me where it was in the Bible which in fact did not happen, so that's why I was left to believe we didn't have free will.

 

[Enchantmt]

This is true, which is why I prefaced my questions with these people are saved, and then back slid. I just didn't think you can be saved, truly saved and then back slide and still go to heaven if you died without repentance in that sin. What is the point of being required to live a Holy life if you can do this.
BUT, God is merciful, and he decides who to grant mercy to.

I also diagree with the predestination thing. What is the point of evangelism. Why does God want us to spread his word. I think it takes away the hope and faith in God. If it is predetermined who will get into Heaven, how do you know if it is you? I think it also takes away from living HOly too. If I know I'm going to be saved, then I can do what I want up to a few seconds before dying and squeeze right on in.
Plus God did give us free will.

Oh, I'm not trying to insult anyone, I just don't get it. Some I'm going to step away and do some studying about it.

One of the links I posted may clarify some of this for you. God is all powerful but there are rules He has set in place, things he has given his word on, things He will not violate. So even though He has the power and ability to do all things, He limits Himself to His word. He has decided certain things will come to pass and for those events you cannot get around His will. They will happen. He has also decided we have free will as to whether or not we choose to follow His will. For example, we know because the bible tells us that it is His will that none shall perish, that all come to everlasting life, so if just one person goes to hell, His will is not performed. Since we can assume that at least one person is going to hell, we know his will is not coming to pass. The rules are set so that our free will is what determines if we are saved. People always want to ask why God allows evil to happen, but we allow evil to happen. We have free will to commit an act of evil. I can walk into any restaurant and shoot it up, my choice, my will. That is not to say we do not have any protection against evil, or consequences for committing it, (but thats another topic and I'm tireddd ) but there are rules as to what God will and will not do, not because of His power or ability, but because of what He has ordained as the operating rules for the human existence. I'm going to lunch I will bbl. Where is JuJu when you need her?? lol

 

[Honeyhips]

Thanks for the links. Now I see that God did give us free will from the scriptures pointed out! I just wanted someone here to show me where it was in the Bible which in fact did not happen, so that's why I was left to believe we didn't have free will.

I didn't that you asked for it until now,but in the mean time you couldn't search for it yourself? That is what I doing with predestination.

By the way, thanks for the links Enchtmt.

 

[Poohbear]

I didn't that you asked for it until now,but in the mean time you couldn't search for it yourself? That is what I doing with predestination.

By the way, thanks for the links Enchtmt.

it wasnt directed toward you when i said no one ever showed me scripture about God giving us free will. ive asked in several threads before about this and no one showed me. I'm not putting anything on you or anyone by saying no one showed me the scripture. And yes I've tried searching myself and never found it in the Bible. The Bible is very complex and contains lots of scriptures, right?

 

[Koffie]

it wasnt directed toward you when i said no one ever showed me scripture about God giving us free will. ive asked in several threads before about this and no one showed me. I'm not putting anything on you or anyone by saying no one showed me the scripture. And yes I've tried searching myself and never found it in the Bible. The Bible is very complex and contains lots of scriptures, right?

yes it is,

 

[Honeyhips]

Yes it is. But weren't you just saying that people should do their own studying? So why complain when someone hasn't given you the information that you need. You are responsible for your own education and salvation.

it wasnt directed toward you when i said no one ever showed me scripture about God giving us free will. ive asked in several threads before about this and no one showed me. I'm not putting anything on you or anyone by saying no one showed me the scripture. And yes I've tried searching myself and never found it in the Bible. The Bible is very complex and contains lots of scriptures, right?

 

[Poohbear]

Yes it is. But weren't you just saying that people should do their own studying? So why complain when someone hasn't given you the information that you need. You are responsible for your own education and salvation.

I just told you I wasnt putting anything on you or anyone else, so I'm not complaining at all! And I never said "people should do their own studying" the way YOU said it. When I said people should study for themselves meaning just that. We all need guidance and teaching. And I never said and never felt like anyone else is responsible for my education or salvation. Please calm down, no offense to anything I've said.

 

[Honeyhips]

I just told you I wasnt putting anything on you or anyone else, so I'm not complaining at all! And I never said "people should do their own studying" the way YOU said it. When I said people should study for themselves meaning just that. We all need guidance and teaching. And I never said and never felt like anyone else is responsible for my education or salvation. Please calm down, no offense to anything I've said.

Girl please, you have not upset me.

how is the way I said it different?

You know what, nevermind. This isn't important.

 

[Poohbear]

Girl please, you have not upset me.

how is the way I said it different?

You know what, nevermind. This isn't important.

I must have read your post the wrong way again. I thought I upset you. Thanks for clarifying.