afrochique
Well-Known Member
Thank you, but I'm not from southern Africa! It's only my screen name, from Shona.I'm American.
mwedzi Oops! I apologize.
can girls from southern africa grow long hair? i know west/central/east africans
- Thread starter miss cosmic
- Start date
hairedity
Well-Known Member
Miss Cosmic asked a valid question and tried her best not to offend anybody reading her thread. Of course some peeps are offended, and she has been advised a few times how she could have better stated her question.
So why not move on and answer her question, and stop bullying her own personal observation of the hair she sees on a daily basis. She is in fact IN South Africa. I'm sure most of the offended peeps are not in South Africa right now.
It has also been stated that it probably comes down to bad hair care practices and it seems like the original poster agrees.
So anyway, great question Miss Cosmic! I hope you get the inspiration and information that you are looking for.
So why not move on and answer her question, and stop bullying her own personal observation of the hair she sees on a daily basis. She is in fact IN South Africa. I'm sure most of the offended peeps are not in South Africa right now.
It has also been stated that it probably comes down to bad hair care practices and it seems like the original poster agrees.
So anyway, great question Miss Cosmic! I hope you get the inspiration and information that you are looking for.
Neith
New Member
I'm not offended at all. Like I said in my first post...
I think that the OP is free to ask this question... if you don't know something, sure ask the question. I don't have a beef with anyone.
But Neith, there is a logical fallacy in this post. If someone said the average height of a human being is 5'7", does that mean human populations that are shorter are less human because they are shorter than average? Are human populations that exceed the average more human? I really don't see how allowing the possibility of variation between groups makes one group more or less human just because you look at a global average. Think about what "average" means. If someone measured the world's population skin tone and said the average was, say, some shade of tan, what conclusion can you draw from that? Can you conclude that since that is the average for humans, people lighter than that are deficient and therefore less human? Would western and northern Europeans be less human because they as a group are lighter than the average human when the average is taken across the entire world?
Actually, there are few studies that study the different growth rates between groups of people (races, for lack of a better term), but the ones I know of that do (I've read 2) actually do report a difference in growth rates between groups. So I guess I'm just not sure from what data your conclusion is being drawn when the only studies that have actually done research on that particular topic point to the opposite. The best you can reasonably assume is "we don't know" if you assume their studies are flawed, but there is no data that I know of that allows you to conclude what you are concluding.
Sorry for the diversion, OP. That is my last post about that topic in this thread, promise.
Neith
New Member
Saying that many black people can't achieve long hair (or only are capable of growing a few inches of hair) is like saying:
an extremely large percentage of Asians are dwarves - not just shorter than average
or
western and northern Europeans has an extremely large percentage of albinos - not just more fair than average
If you want to use skin color and height to compare.
Is the growth rate or terminal overall a little less than people of other races? That's a possibility. but it's not as if most black people can't have a good length of hair. Our hair growth isn't stunted at SL and shorter or anything like that.
You really believe that it's a possibility that most/many black people or people with 4b hair can't achieve long hair?
Not saying that there are absolutely no differences between groups. Nope, I don't know if "they" grow faster or not for sure.
However, I don't think that our hair growth rate or hair length potential is so low that many people can never achieve long hair. That would be a HUGE discrepancy.
What's your definition of long hair?
Neith
New Member
LunadeMiel
Well-Known Member
The thing no one said black women can't grow long hair or that our growth is stunted at SL.
Neith
New Member
If someone has a significantly shorter than average terminal length and/or a significantly slower than average growth rate... you can't expect them to have very long hair.
niqu92
New Member
i dont think hair growth has anything to do with where you live (south africa,east africa,whatever)...it might to a certain extent but healthy hair practices play a major part in hair growth.
im not african,im haitian and in haiti you see women with short relaxed hair,short natural hair, long relaxed hair,or long natural hair.the fact that they live in haiti has nothing to do with their hair growth. i have family with very long (im talking MBL&beyond) hair and at the same time i have family members with short ear/necklength hair.the ones with long hair have long hair because they have healthy hair practices.the ones with short hair have short hair because they dont take care of their hair like they should-being haitian has nothing to do with it. the same concept applies to africa,being south african doesn't mean your hair is going to be short..and being east african doesnt mean your hair is going to be long&silky.it all depends on how you take care of it.
im not african,im haitian and in haiti you see women with short relaxed hair,short natural hair, long relaxed hair,or long natural hair.the fact that they live in haiti has nothing to do with their hair growth. i have family with very long (im talking MBL&beyond) hair and at the same time i have family members with short ear/necklength hair.the ones with long hair have long hair because they have healthy hair practices.the ones with short hair have short hair because they dont take care of their hair like they should-being haitian has nothing to do with it. the same concept applies to africa,being south african doesn't mean your hair is going to be short..and being east african doesnt mean your hair is going to be long&silky.it all depends on how you take care of it.
Guitarhero
New Member
You should definitely join LongHairCommunity...it will dispel the many myths of whiteness.
Nonie
Well-Known Member
I am on my phone so it's killing me not to be able to address every post I want to address but I do see what Neith is trying to say.
Here is the thing, when our people had no outside influence, before colonies or around the times they came to existence and brought their influence and before we were brought as slaves, our hair grew pretty long. There was a thread where we touched on the history of our hair and long hair seemed to be the norm.
Somehow we lost the knack of haircare somewhere and started using products that never used to exist back in the day and in time, we seemed to want to do so much and change our hairdos on a regular basis the way others with different hair might and to distance ourselves from what was once "normal" till we no longer remember how to work with our hair.
It is true that long hair isn't common in a lot of African countries today but as has been mentioned, besides folks not having the right skills for haircare (coz we lost the knack somewhere), there is also the fact that a lot of schools do not allow long hair. Some schools demand that students shave their hair off. And others demand the hair be combed out daily and we all know daily manipulation is a recipe for low retention and more so if the handling of the hair isn't gentle.
My hair isn't as long as Mwedzi's but it might be as long as the time she made a video showing what a pain it was to deal with her hair and how conditioner didn't make combing easier. But I am yet to get frustrated with my hair because I have found ways to work with it. I do not pamper my hair as I could and if I did, it might do better in the "length department" but that I am at a length I have never been when I am not jumping hoops surely says something about the capability of 4B hair.
I think it is unfair to make the assumption that because only x number of people keep being mentioned on forums, that it speaks to a truth that to get 4B hair long it takes a lot of work. Saying that ignores the history of how 4B hair has been worn in the West since slavery days so that in its natural state its now alien to many of us. It was only 7 years ago when 4B naturals were so few on this forum you might've missed them if you blinked. So of course, natural 4B hair's growth to great lengths is like a new invention that will take a while to become the norm while we perfect the model.
And it's not just slavery that is to blame for this ignorance. Even in Africa where school kids might spend 11-13 years being told to shave it off or comb it daily so that that's all they know by the time they are adults, as soon as they are free to finally grow it long, they instead find out what current trend in the developed world they look up to is and here come the perms and whatever celebs are doing "these days" just so they can be hip. So you end up with generation after generation of clueless folks trying to be cool and keep up with what's in fashion. Then when we decide to transition, it's like learning Greek. And that isn't even considering the negativity associated with 4B hair which at some subconscious level might be making the whole journey feel like a daunting feat.
As crazy as this may sound, I bet my bottom dollar that if someone who is healthy (no disease and not under-nourished) and who has never had long hair adopted the Nimba people's hair regimen, s/he would have the same results they have. And looking at their hair, that is some 4B hair if I ever saw some, yet every woman appears to have no problem growing long hair. Perhaps it is because they have never forgotten the way our hair is supposed to be handled. I doubt they use Denmans, or even my beloved S Curl or Megatek or Blessed Grease. But they most certainly are doing something right.
Oh one more thing before I go nurse my thumbs, someone said that she went to school with girls who had hair that needed cutting every half month while others hair didn't need cutting until after a few mths and then deduced from that th latter people will have short hair (or that's how I read it). But I wanted to say that a slow growth rate doesn't determine you will have short hair. Some of the people who claim growth rates above the norm have been on the forum for a while and don't show lengths that match that. And some who have below average rates have the longest hair on the forum. So rate doesn't really determine end results.
Here is the thing, when our people had no outside influence, before colonies or around the times they came to existence and brought their influence and before we were brought as slaves, our hair grew pretty long. There was a thread where we touched on the history of our hair and long hair seemed to be the norm.
Somehow we lost the knack of haircare somewhere and started using products that never used to exist back in the day and in time, we seemed to want to do so much and change our hairdos on a regular basis the way others with different hair might and to distance ourselves from what was once "normal" till we no longer remember how to work with our hair.
It is true that long hair isn't common in a lot of African countries today but as has been mentioned, besides folks not having the right skills for haircare (coz we lost the knack somewhere), there is also the fact that a lot of schools do not allow long hair. Some schools demand that students shave their hair off. And others demand the hair be combed out daily and we all know daily manipulation is a recipe for low retention and more so if the handling of the hair isn't gentle.
My hair isn't as long as Mwedzi's but it might be as long as the time she made a video showing what a pain it was to deal with her hair and how conditioner didn't make combing easier. But I am yet to get frustrated with my hair because I have found ways to work with it. I do not pamper my hair as I could and if I did, it might do better in the "length department" but that I am at a length I have never been when I am not jumping hoops surely says something about the capability of 4B hair.
I think it is unfair to make the assumption that because only x number of people keep being mentioned on forums, that it speaks to a truth that to get 4B hair long it takes a lot of work. Saying that ignores the history of how 4B hair has been worn in the West since slavery days so that in its natural state its now alien to many of us. It was only 7 years ago when 4B naturals were so few on this forum you might've missed them if you blinked. So of course, natural 4B hair's growth to great lengths is like a new invention that will take a while to become the norm while we perfect the model.
And it's not just slavery that is to blame for this ignorance. Even in Africa where school kids might spend 11-13 years being told to shave it off or comb it daily so that that's all they know by the time they are adults, as soon as they are free to finally grow it long, they instead find out what current trend in the developed world they look up to is and here come the perms and whatever celebs are doing "these days" just so they can be hip. So you end up with generation after generation of clueless folks trying to be cool and keep up with what's in fashion. Then when we decide to transition, it's like learning Greek. And that isn't even considering the negativity associated with 4B hair which at some subconscious level might be making the whole journey feel like a daunting feat.
As crazy as this may sound, I bet my bottom dollar that if someone who is healthy (no disease and not under-nourished) and who has never had long hair adopted the Nimba people's hair regimen, s/he would have the same results they have. And looking at their hair, that is some 4B hair if I ever saw some, yet every woman appears to have no problem growing long hair. Perhaps it is because they have never forgotten the way our hair is supposed to be handled. I doubt they use Denmans, or even my beloved S Curl or Megatek or Blessed Grease. But they most certainly are doing something right.
Oh one more thing before I go nurse my thumbs, someone said that she went to school with girls who had hair that needed cutting every half month while others hair didn't need cutting until after a few mths and then deduced from that th latter people will have short hair (or that's how I read it). But I wanted to say that a slow growth rate doesn't determine you will have short hair. Some of the people who claim growth rates above the norm have been on the forum for a while and don't show lengths that match that. And some who have below average rates have the longest hair on the forum. So rate doesn't really determine end results.
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charmtreese
Well-Known Member
Im a member over there. And what I have notice is on average they have longer lengths then the average member over here. Just saying!!!
miss cosmic
Well-Known Member
like nonie I am on my phone and it sucks not being able to respond to every post.
thank you all for responding, thank you especially for the pics and links.
as was said, I could have phrased my query better, and would thus have avoided causing some of you 'sadness'.
I do not now nor have I ever believed that different means less...just to clarify that my original question was not intended to imply that 4b hair and southern african 4b hair in particular is in some way 'less' than other hair types. that some of you got that implication is testimony to the need for rephrasing, right?
thank you all for responding, thank you especially for the pics and links.
as was said, I could have phrased my query better, and would thus have avoided causing some of you 'sadness'.
I do not now nor have I ever believed that different means less...just to clarify that my original question was not intended to imply that 4b hair and southern african 4b hair in particular is in some way 'less' than other hair types. that some of you got that implication is testimony to the need for rephrasing, right?
Girl, you paid your $6.50, you're completely entitled to ask!! As someone mentioned here, considering that you actually live in SA and see the state of people's hair there ... it's only logical that you would ask the questions you have.
I don't know why some get so up in arms at the mere suggestion that maybe 4b does grow/ retain length as easily as looser textures. Maybe that's just how it's made, it's just different.
Firstly, I wanted to address the idea of an 'average'. True statisticians rarely ever depend on just an average, the reason being that usually when you look deeper into your data, you can often find differences amongst groups that are usually concealed by amalgamating everyone onto an average. The other interesting thing is about the 'average' is that it's completely possible to come up with average for a group and have NO-ONE in the group actually achieving that exact average. for example take 2 + 8 + 28 + 12 --> the average is 12.5. Note that none of the numbers are actually 12.5, and also note the variation within the group. So while the 'average' is a good measure the central tendency of your data, it really doesn't give the detailed scoop of what's going on within the group.
Now, if you want to get a good overall picture of how your data varies about your average, you can look at a bell curve. Generally, it will look like this when you just lump everyone together (assuming that your data is normal):
But if you decide to look at specific groups within your dataset, you may very well come up with something like this (eta: ignore all labels):
Note that although there is an average, the vertical line on the red bell curve, for everyone (as there is the 0.5" of growth per month):
1) the averages (outtermost vertical lines) for each distinct group are quite different.
2) if this was a bell curve for hair growth, no group would actually be at an average of 0.5" per month although the 'average' for "everyone" or the whole population is 0.5" per month.
So just because there is an average for everyone:
1) it doesn't mean that that's what anyone actually experiences
2) it doesn't mean that different groups aren't in reality experiencing quite different averages.
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lesedi
All is well with me
No-one mentioned anything about terminal length. I believe that Southern Africans CAN grow long hair (I'm testimony to that), but I think it will take longer and require more effort.
sithembile
Well-Known Member
Another point to note, is that many southern african women of a certain generation keep their heads covered at all times (for cultural / religious reasons). My grandmother's hair is always under a wrap, I've only seen it once, when she was switching wraps to go to sleep. She has tightly coiled, 4b hair that was very shrunken, but I'm sure that if I straightened it would be APL because she has never cut it, and her regimen is ultra low manipulation and protective styling. Granted, she hardly washes it and Vaseline is her mainstay, but she still has a lot of hair, you just can't see it.
BTW OP, I was not offended at all by your question.
BTW OP, I was not offended at all by your question.
I think it's also problematic that we judge ourselves according to a standard that does not apply to us. I wonder if a white person with 1a hair, relaxed or "permed" their hair every 4-6 weeks and flat ironed it multiple times a week while slathering it with oil based products would work for them? Oh and deep conditioning with heavy products and not washing for a week or two. Their hair wouldn't thrive because they are doing things that don't work FOR THEIR hair type. Have ya'll seen what people with type 1 hair look like when they don't wash their hair daily or at least 3 times a week?. I say all this to say, our hair has different needs and we try to care for it in ways that are not meant for OUR hair type, then get frustrated and say "our hair doesn't grow, because we are GENETICALLY "different".
Does not make sense.
Yup this makes too much sense!
~Sparklingflame~
New Member
I absolutely REFUSE to believe that blacks that are born in SA are genetically predestined to eternally have short hair and long hair is not in the cards for them.
Dont believe it, wont believe it.
Dont believe it, wont believe it.
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The elephant in the room in these type of threads is the dreadlocks issue (or prettylocks, fancylocks, sislocks, whatever if you don't care for the word "dread"). Anyone can grow hair to their knees and beyond if they braid or twist it up and leave it alone for 10-20 years. But I gather the question is can black women with tightly coiled afro textured hair grow long hair is not dreadlocked in 20 months or preferably less (coz most people come to hair boards looking for quick fixes and no one wants to hear that they have to leave their hair alone for 10 years if they want it to grow). With that said there is genetic variation and this "improper hair care" thing that gets thrown around all the time is kind of smug. This board may be a fun hangout but no one reinvented the wheel here. Sure some people have short hair that can easily grow longer if they stop doing little things like using super strength relaxer when their hair is 3b and pulling the relaxer through to the ends at each touch up - and not neutralizing when they're done - or flat ironing on max temp everyday or using old fashioned stove top hot combs multiple times in a week without even bothering to do the paper towel test - if they stop doing those things they'll have immediate turn around. But not everyone with short hair is doing those things. Maybe this is assumed because people who e.g., flat iron daily have a clue that it's breaking down their hair are most likely to type "long aa hair" into google and end up here and so they put away the heat tools and voila next thing you know they are at mbl. So then there is a tendency to assume that any other woman they see with short hair must be doing the same things they used to do. Not necessarily so. Some people just have shorter hair than other people - period. They're not dummies who don't know how to use conditioner (whether it's store bought or homemade) they just don't have long hair. This is like saying every short woman is that way because they received improper nutrition during their childhood years. Granted this is true for some people but other people are short. I don't see what's so hard about accepting that.
ConstantlyDynamic
Well-Known Member
People are still conflating the issues of growth and retention?! This is not directed to the OP. I'm just confused as to why people are still claiming that black people take a longer time to grow. When I look at naturals with locs, I don't see that. And generally, when black women that I know wear braids for 2-3 months, they get the inches that were expected. It really is about retention mainly because growth rate differs from individual to individual. White women don't grow hair faster-they just retain it easier and therefore are able to achieve certain length faster. I'm willing to bet that if they did a study that controlled for the retention variable by using women of various races that were protective styling (i think braids are the best way to tell but I could be wrong), we would find that there is no vast difference based on race though there maybe individual differences. We have yet to have a study that controls for that factor but based on what I've seen with loc'ed women and women in certain protective styles (including my own experience with braids- I grew 1.5-2 inches in a little over 2 months whenever I wore braids but would lose length due to breakage and cuts by stylists whenever I went in to straighten my hair. i have NEVER been able to achieve the same thing without braids. I'm sure my hair is growing but it's breaking off as well), our growth rate is no different on average
Kurlee
Well-Known Member
HappilyLiberal
Well-Known Member
Plus, many of the white women posting over there are having problems with their hair because they abused their hair at some point (e.g. bleached blonds) and are having to grow out that damage.
Nonie
Well-Known Member
Tiye, if it isn't improper hair care, then how do you explain the fact that there are so many people on this forum and others who can attest to the fact that they never had long hair until they either joined this forum or followed a certain regimen they found online or in a book? In other words, it wasn't until they tweaked something in how they cared for their hair that it changed and reached lengths they never dreamed of.
And on the point of whether 4B hair can grow long w/o being kept braided or locked...why is that the deciding factor of whether our hair can grow long? Who made that rule? What if this hair we are blessed with was never meant to be brushed or raked through but was instead supposed to be handled like silk and worn in braided styles? It seems we've all been so brainwashed for centuries that what might've once been beautiful to our people now looks like "punishment" or a "curse" to most of us. So that if our hair--which is weaker than others perhaps due to the groove that runs down the length of the strands and fewer cuticles--asks to be treated and worn a certain way in order for its glory to shine, we feel a sort of condemnation and want to join in chorus "woe is us".
Come on now! Kurlee sums it well when she says that our biggest problem is not working with our hair the way NATURE intended for us to work with it. Isn't it ironic how people with types 1, 2, 3 hair seem to need no direction on how to care for their hair? You have Indians sticking to their Ayurveda regimens passed on down the years, Caucasians still doing what their ascendants used to do (like, brushing their hair is it a 100 times)... and here come tightly curled girls looking outside of themselves to find answers on how to deal with their hair. It's like we're the only orphaned people without any inherited regimens.
Nah, until we start to listen/pay attention to our hair and not try to emulate others or pay attention to what their hair does, we'll always buy into the lie that our hair isn't capable of being long or that it is a major chore to care for it if we want it long. And we will continue to hate shrinkage and every little thing that our hair does. And in that pit of misery we'll have dug ourselves into, we'll continue to live in darkness and miss out on all the cute little things our hair can do that would've made this journey the most exciting adventure ever.
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ellebelle88
Well-Known Member
I don't believe this, I don't believe this at all. I have seen a former Caucasian roommate who cut her hair in to a bob and 4 months later it was near bra-strap length again. Even after I wore protective styling and stayed weaved up in those 4 months, my growth rate was not nearly as much as hers. Plus, if we all grew hair at the same rate what would be the point of taking vitamins in hopes of increasing it. Let's just admit the facts, genetics DOES play a part. Most other races of hair do grow faster than the majority of Black hair and when I say black I am being subjective because a lot of us are mixed with various forms of ancestry due to slavery so we have some black people whose hair will grow faster than other black people's hair.
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IA with this!
I can understand people's desire to eradicate all stereotypes that black hair can't grow and whatnot. But to say it grows just as fast as other races is just reaching IMO. My non- black friends can grow what I grow in a year, in 6 months. They can dye their hair one day and two weeks later its time to dye their roots again. You can say that you know of some white women who can't grow their hair long, but at the end of the day they are the minority...and for us it's typically the opposite.
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ConstantlyDynamic
Well-Known Member
If she did then she's an anomaly. I've been in predominantly white schools and summer camps, most of my friends are white and I have yet to see a white girl grow her hair from neck length to bra-strap in 4 months especially since the average rate is 0.5 in/month. If she were the majority, I'm sure that in my 22 years of living, I would have seen at least one white person do that. I don't even see that on blogs. One blogger that I follow grew her hair from SL to Bra-strap in about 2 years. But again, rates differ on an individual basis. Your hair grows slowly as you claim but I know many black women who would stay weaved up and gain a lot of growth that way. Whether they are able to keep the growth or not is the issue. I'm not sure what vitamins have to do with this because people in general take multivitamins in order to provide their bodies with the proper nutrients. Currently, I'm taking One-a-Day and I'm taking msm for my skin (puberty sucked! haha). It's not like vitamins directly increase your rate but they keep you healthy so if your body is at maximum health, your body processes (growth etc.) will go more efficiently and you'll be able to grow hair at your maximum rate (everyone's maximum rate is different). I looked at hairfinity ingredients and they are regular multivitamins basically. Black people are not the only ones who take vitamins so I don't get why you mentioned them. But just to add that to that, I didn't take any vitamins when I had braids in and I didn't moisturize my hair lol but my hair grew faster than the average rate (all of my friends even noticed that and commented on it). My cousin who recently loc'ed has SL locs (which means that her hair is actually much longer when stretched) and it hasn't even been a year yet. She doesn't take vitamins. All she does is moisturize and wash. As I stated before, if we look at loc'ed women and women in certain protective styles, on average, they should grow at a normal rate. there will always be individual differences as shown by the fact that our protective styling experiences were different.
And for the other poster who mentioned that her white friend colors her hair every two weeks- so does my mother lol and there are tons of women who perm their hair every month (though they shouldn't) because of new growth so clearly their hair growing. so many black women perm too often and then complain that their hair isn't growing (really it's just breaking from poor hair practices-doesn't help that many of us were taught to trim often as well- I used to trim every 6-8 weeks so the longest part of my layers stayed at APL). I just don't understand this mentality that it takes ages for us to grow but there are so many factors that play into how this myth was created and it'd take even longer to get into.
Vintageglam
New Member
Honestly we need to start facing facts on this board. Whilst healthy hair practices will allow us type 4's to grow healthy 'longer' hair. The ability to grow that hair as easily as other races IS biologically determined. This is no poor reflection on us as women of colour just fact. In any case I will take a wrinkle free face at 50 over and over again. We got it so good yet we hankering over something which doesn't come so easily to us. As women of colour we can grow hair we just need to work harder. By the way west African in the house here with growth rate of about 6 inches a year. 