Michael Jackson...and Heaven

That is the media adding salt to the truth again. This is the latest entry on Andre Crouch's Facebook page:

Andrae' Crouch FROM SANDRA'S FB PAGE: "It has been brought to my attention that several media outlets have been erroneously reporting that my brother, Andrae Crouch and me met our dear friend Michael Jackson several weeks prior to his death so he could accept Christ. This is incorrect and absolutely not true. We loved and respected Michael enormously and we've been friends with him for many, many years, and are deeply saddened"
 
But I would not be surprised if Michael is in heaven. As I shared on the ET forum, Michael was very loving, very giving, very humble...reaching out to the poor, and the sick, etc. And if we look to the Word, this is what Jesus said:

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Matthew 25:31-46

Jesus also said:
1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:
3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matthew 5:1-12

May he find the peace, trust, safety, love, comfort, rest...etc that proved so elusive to him while he was living.
 
I'm applaud at some of the statements I've read on other "Christian" boards saying they were glad Michael is burning in hell and that he deserved this?:nono: I went off on everyone on that board.... Isn't is our job as followers of Christ to intercede and reach out in LOVE, it doesn't matter if you are famous or not. Let's not forget the thief on the cross. Michael could be chilling in heaven now we do not know. It just rubbed me the wrong way how so called "Christians" were praising his death. Every since then I no longer call myself a "Christian" because that word is now synomous(sp?) with hypocrites. I like to call myself someone who follows what Christ taught and how he lived.
 
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Thanks for posting the FB link... it's still all a bit confusing: Here's the latest from the Dave guy who posts for Andrae's fan page:

Andrae' Crouch Sorry for the confusing previous THREE POSTS from Sandra's FB page... I will try again to put her comments in ONE POST for clarity. It should be noted that their stories do not contradict each other, in my opinion. Andrae' simply gives alot MORE DETAIL of what happened. than Sandra'. (Dave)

At issue is WHY they went to see Michael, not that they didn't go see him. From reading the Crouches' posts, it was a visit to create music together. Still, they ministered to him while they were there..praying and singing and talking about the annointing of the Holy Spirit. They insist that there was no "sinners prayer" per se, which then make reports that they went to see him to get him saved erroneous.

Nonetheless, I do sincerely hope he is in Heaven, which is why I posted this. :yep:


That is the media adding salt to the truth again. This is the latest entry on Andre Crouch's Facebook page:
 
If we could go to heaven simply for "doing good" we'd all make it to heaven.


Jesus is the only way to heaven.... one becomes righteous by accepting Jesus. To do good but not believe in Jesus or God is in vain. This Scripture is referrencing where God separates the sheep from the goat. The righteous are at his right hand. This is also proof that not everyone who says Lord Lord will make it to Heaven, for they will cast out demons, pray to heal others, etc, but have no Love in their hearts, i.e., not caring for the poor or doing good IN ADDITION to being righteous.

Reading in context is vital to the quest in understanding God's Word.
Sometimes I read out of context, asw well...

God Bless you.

But I would not be surprised if Michael is in heaven. As I shared on the ET forum, Michael was very loving, very giving, very humble...reaching out to the poor, and the sick, etc. And if we look to the Word, this is what Jesus said:

Matthew 25:31-46

Jesus also said:
Matthew 5:1-12

May he find the peace, trust, safety, love, comfort, rest...etc that proved so elusive to him while he was living.
 
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I'm truly sad to hear you feel that way... CHRIST is the first part of Christian; I won't let anyone's actions/inactions determine how I feel about who I am and whose I am.

God Bless you.


I'm applaud at some of the statements I've read on other "Christian" boards saying they were glad Michael is burning in hell and that he deserved this?:nono: I went off on everyone on that board.... Isn't is our job as followers of Christ to intercede and reach out in LOVE, it doesn't matter if you are famous or not. Let's not forget the thief on the cross. Michael could be chilling in heaven now we do not know. It just rubbed me the wrong way how so called "Christians" were praising his death. Every since then I no longer call myself a "Christian" because that word is now synomous(sp?) with hypocrites. I like to call myself someone who follows what Christ taught and how he lived.
 
I'm truly sad to hear you feel that way... CHRIST is the first part of Christian; I won't let anyone's actions/inactions determine how I feel about who I am and whose I am.

God Bless you.

No, I love Christ. When I minister to people I want them to know there is a difference between labeling yourself as something versus living it.
 
I understand what you are saying Laela but I don't think Saved is denying her saviour by dropping the word Christian. I have spoken to so many people that don't want anything to do with the church or Christianity because of some of the holier-than-thou Christians that they have encountered. As she stated the word Christian has become synonymous with hypocrite and its really sad. Nothing in her post leads me to believe that she is denying Christ at all. :nono:

I'm truly sad to hear you feel that way... CHRIST is the first part of Christian; I won't let anyone's actions/inactions determine how I feel about who I am and whose I am.

God Bless you.
 
Saved, my response was from a personal perspective. I'm familiar with your posts and I dare not say you are not saved.. LOL.. Misunderstanding. I'm just defending my right to call myself a CHRISTian, despite the labelling or negative connotations attached. We all have to stand accounted one day, no matter what we call ourselves... that's is all I am saying.

Stay Blessed! :heart:

No, I love Christ. When I minister to people I want them to know there is a difference between labeling yourself as something versus living it.
 
Saved, my response was from a personal perspective. I'm familiar with your posts and I dare not say you are not saved.. LOL.. Misunderstanding. I'm just defending my right to call myself a CHRISTian, despite the labelling or negative connotations attached. We all have to stand accounted one day, no matter what we call ourselves... that's is all I am saying.

Stay Blessed! :heart:
Thanks I see what you are saying. Matthew Chapter 7 :grin:
 
If we could go to heaven simply for "doing good" we'd all make it to heaven.


Jesus is the only way to heaven.... one becomes righteous by accepting Jesus. To do good but not believe in Jesus or God is in vain. This Scripture is referrencing where God separates the sheep from the goat. The righteous are at his right hand. This is also proof that not everyone who says Lord Lord will make it to Heaven, for they will cast out demons, pray to heal others, etc, but have no Love in their hearts, i.e., not caring for the poor or doing good IN ADDITION to being righteous.

Reading in context is vital to the quest in understanding God's Word.
Sometimes I read out of context, as well...

God Bless you.

I actually read it in context, which is why I very rarely just quote a verse, but rather quote as much of the chapter as will reveal the context in which the message was used. The point Jesus was making was his sheep, those that will not be cast in hell, will be those who echoed his life on earth. He was as clear as can be, and I don't think there's any way to misunderstand what he meant. He was saying one way he will purge his church of the hypocrites will be by looking at the fruits of those who claim to belong and only those who followed in His footsteps will make it to heaven.

Our definition of "accepting Jesus" may not be God's definition. I am sure there are people that died during Jesus time here on earth, who learned from Him what they needed to go to Heaven. They "sold all they had and followed him" and never got to hear the message about being saved that was written about later on in Romans (“If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved” Romans 10:9), nor would it make sense to them if they'd heard it because Jesus hadn't died at the time they were living and hearing him. Also, it seems like the modern church has come up with this "model prayer" that one must say to be "saved", when all it takes is to confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus and believe that God raised Him from the dead. And what does it mean to confess? One definition of "confess" is "to declare faith in or adherence to". And you are to do this with your mouth. Does there have to be an audience? I don't know. I don't see where it says that.

I have seen "saved" people break the law of God and continue do so. I have seen people who don't mention being saved but they appear to bear fruit that makes one give glory to God just because. Jesus warned us:
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
(Matthew 7:15-23)
So while I understand the New Testament's post-Jesus teachings about not setting foot in heaven unless one is saved, I think we cannot ignore Jesus' teachings on the matter. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit and a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, "thus by their fruit you will recognize them," Jesus said.


I find it interesting how many times Jesus touched on entering his kingdom:


13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them. (Mark 10:13-16)

And how would little children receive the kingdom of God? How do children receive anything new you give them. With awe, and wonder, and humility, and excitement, and hunger, and innocence, without suspicion, but rather with faith and trust....

I guess we'll never know whether Michael got saved. But if we are to pay attention to anything Jesus taught, it was that by their fruits we will know those that belong to His flock. That's different from doing good deeds to get a reward or doing good deeds to earn a license to heaven. It is doing good deeds because you cannot help yourself. It just is what comes naturally to you, coz you're that good tree that bears nothing else but good fruit. When people say, "If I could go to heaven by doing good" w/r/t that verse, they totally miss the point Jesus was trying to make. Using cause and effect: The cause in Jesus example is not a desire to go to heaven so you do good (the effect)--which is what that remark is saying. The cause in Jesus example is our good hearts that cannot help but bear good fruit (effect).

So *shrug* while I may never know what Michael confessed with his mouth or whether he believed God raised Jesus from the dead, I saw him bear a lot of good fruit.
 
I'm applaud at some of the statements I've read on other "Christian" boards saying they were glad Michael is burning in hell and that he deserved this?:nono: I went off on everyone on that board.... Isn't is our job as followers of Christ to intercede and reach out in LOVE, it doesn't matter if you are famous or not. Let's not forget the thief on the cross. Michael could be chilling in heaven now we do not know. It just rubbed me the wrong way how so called "Christians" were praising his death. Every since then I no longer call myself a "Christian" because that word is now synomous(sp?) with hypocrites. I like to call myself someone who follows what Christ taught and how he lived.

According to some reports, they don't truly know if he did those appauling things or not. Who are they to judge anyway? Thanks for your posts, you and Nonie!!! G-d is the ultimate Judge and who knows if He presents Himself personally to each and every person? We don't know. What I do know? People who aren't christian do go to heaven. It's how you live. Let Jesus work out the final details...,let's us live righteously without judgments.
 
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IDK but when I initially heard the reports that MJ had crossed over I wondered and hope that he had gotten himself right with his Savior. They say that in his youth he was raise JW. I hope that he at some point accepted Jesus in his heart and Lord and Savior of his life.
 
Let us not pass judgement on the dearly departed it is not our place. Pray for his family. That is the right thing to do.
 
Only God knows the heart. My hope is that He was right with the Lord. Honestly, something about him and his story really was heartbreaking to me. But thankfully, God is just. Whatever his fate, it will be fair.
 
Our definition of "accepting Jesus" may not be God's definition.

Well, let me quote Jesus on this one:

John 14:16
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

It doesn't matter how "good" a person is, if Jesus isn't Lord of their life, they CAN'T go to Heaven to meet his Father. I didn't say Michael Jackson. You quoted a Scripture and I expounded on it.


I have seen "saved" people break the law of God and continue do so. I have seen people who don't mention being saved but they appear to bear fruit that makes one give glory to God just because. Jesus warned us:
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
(Matthew 7:15-23)

I knew that was coming.. but guess what? Saved people CAN make mistakes and CAN sin but what separates them from sinners is they know to quickly repent because they have a personal relationship with God and will be admonished by the Spirit. A sinner wouldn't repent but keep sinning. He who is without sin has already given his life for us, so we don't HAVE to sin; but we still are flesh. It's a lifetime commitment to live for God.

A saved person who prays and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance, or listens to God, will develop a discerning spirit.



So *shrug* while I may never know what Michael confessed with his mouth or whether he believed God raised Jesus from the dead...

That's what I intimated in my initial post... this is why I was careful to say we'll never know except for ourselves.. i.e., in the afterlife.

How this is passing judgment is beyond me, becuase you are now saying the same thing. :rolleyes: I don't know if Michael is saved or not, either.

You posted Scripture and I expounded on it. :yep:
 
Michael Jackson aside: There are times where Believers must stand for Truth (the Word), which may offend others. God is Black and White, no gray. He despises friends of the World, for they are hostile toward him. We are either for him or for Satan. It's that simple.

I will continue to stand for the truth, for Jesus..and I know he will see it.

James 4:4
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

Matthew 13:57
And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor."

Revelation 3:16
So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
 
Laela and Nonie - good discussion.

I agree with so much of what both of you have written. Suppose one day we will find whether or not MJ was saved. It's true that Jesus is the only way. :yep: But I do believe that the exposure that people have differs and because God is just, He will take our whole lives into account. We have to live up to the Light that we have. If the exposure to the Light (Jesus) we have is a little, then we will be required to have accepted that. If that Light is plenty, then plenty will be required of us.

Romans seems to touch on this issue...
______________________

Romans 2:11-15 - For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

_______________________________________

So from these verses, it does appear that even some who may not have the same exposure to gospel truth will make it to heaven because they live up to the little Light they have. Their actions show that God's Word is in their hearts as God speaks to us through our conscience. Their willingness to heed Him will be accepted.

Where does Michael fall? Only the Lord Himself knows. I hope that did live up to whatever Light he had.
 
Good points...

Everything we do in our lives, we will have to answer to God, not man:
2 Corinth 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what He has done, whether good or bad.


and everyone will be rewarded for their works on Earth,
1 Corinth 3:8-9
The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

and receive their crowns and rewards. :yep:


I'm trying my best to live so I don't have to tell God... "See, what had happened was... " lol



I agree with so much of what both of you have written. Suppose one day we will find whether or not MJ was saved. It's true that Jesus is the only way. :yep: But I do believe that the exposure that people have differs and because God is just, He will take our whole lives into account. We have to live up to the Light that we have. If the exposure to the Light (Jesus) we have is a little, then we will be required to have accepted that. If that Light is plenty, then plenty will be required of us.

Romans seems to touch on this issue...
______________________

Romans 2:11-15 - For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

_______________________________________

So from these verses, it does appear that even some who may not have the same exposure to gospel truth will make it to heaven because they live up to the little Light they have. Their actions show that God's Word is in their hearts as God speaks to us through our conscience. Their willingness to heed Him will be accepted.

Where does Michael fall? Only the Lord Himself knows. I hope that did live up to whatever Light he had.
 
I'm applaud at some of the statements I've read on other "Christian" boards saying they were glad Michael is burning in hell and that he deserved this?:nono: I went off on everyone on that board.... Isn't is our job as followers of Christ to intercede and reach out in LOVE, it doesn't matter if you are famous or not. Let's not forget the thief on the cross. Michael could be chilling in heaven now we do not know. It just rubbed me the wrong way how so called "Christians" were praising his death. Every since then I no longer call myself a "Christian" because that word is now synomous(sp?) with hypocrites. I like to call myself someone who follows what Christ taught and how he lived.

What! Are you serious? Please tell me this isn't true. How disheartening to want to see another human being, a soul in hell being toutured for all eternity. I wouldn't wish it on my worst human enemy.

I actually found myself pleading with God for mercy in the name of Jesus Christ on Michael's behalf.

God actually led me to pray for Farrah Fawcet two days before she died. He's actually been telling me to pray for months now but I don't think I did what I could have. I mean real, long travailing pulling at the heart of God prayer. I keep forgetting that God has given me the gift of prophecy and when he tells me to pray for someone, I better do it because it might just be that one prayer that turns things around.

God gave me a dream about my God brother and it happend about a month later and I did not pray. I should've but I didn't cause I didn't know but I will try to do better.:yep:
 
What! Are you serious? Please tell me this isn't true. How disheartening to want to see another human being, a soul in hell being toutured for all eternity. I wouldn't wish it on my worst human enemy.

I actually found myself pleading with God for mercy in the name of Jesus Christ on Michael's behalf.

God actually led me to pray for Farrah Fawcet two days before she died. He's actually been telling me to pray for months now but I don't think I did what I could have. I mean real, long travailing pulling at the heart of God prayer. I keep forgetting that God has given me the gift of prophecy and when he tells me to pray for someone, I better do it because it might just be that one prayer that turns things around.

God gave me a dream about my God brother and it happend about a month later and I did not pray. I should've but I didn't cause I didn't know but I will try to do better.:yep:
So is Michael in heaven?
 
So is Michael in heaven?
Believe it or not, but :

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Michael Jackson is dead. Not in heaven, not in fire, just dead!

In the second coming of the Lord Jesus-Christ, we will know.
 
Crown

I do not believe that Michael Jackson is just in the ground. No heaven or hell, now that is not even scriptural! He is not in some kind of pergatory, he is either with The King or with The Deciever.
 
I would not wanted to have been one of the riches men in the world and one of the most famous. To have to stand before God and answer when he asks what have you done for me in your life?
His fame and fortune means nothing to God. He will not be the most famous man in heaven.
We are put here on earth for a very short amount of time. What we do on earth will dictate how you spend the rest of your eternity. Alot of people forget WHY we are here. To do the will of God. To win souls to the Lord, and everything else is secondary.
 
I'm asking HIM no answers yet, what do you think it'll be?


"Get your own life in order and stop worrying about MY business with My son, MIchael." Sorry to be so harsh...but I fail to see the obsession in some christian circles with speculation on who's done gone to heaven and who ain't. I mean, if one were worried about someone, shouldn't they have prayed for that person in private, just them and G-d, about that person during his/her lifetime? What can be done about it now? After the fact just seems so judgmental and disingenuous (not you per se, but in general with the whole christian community who's bothered by this). I'm just saying...

Pray for the living and pray for the souls in purgatory (cleansing from unconfessed venial sins that do not separate man from G-d eternally) that their time is short there so they can be fully united. G-d knows, we'll all face the Judgment one day. Maybe closer to that time, we won't be so uppity about who we think is "saved" and who is not because we'll be more concerned about what we do and what we do not do.:grin: (again not you...but in general with this discussion happening all over the world). This particular thing is one reason I don't want anything to do with certain sects. They fail to see that bible-beating and misinterpreting scripture isn't helping anybody, esp. them.
 
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