Do you take the Bible literally?

[Crown]

I looked at the verse in the original, it does not change how I interpret this verse. Some of those Hell scriptures may mean the grave but I do not believe that they all do.

What about Elijah and Enoch, surely the Word tells us they are not in the grave, not unless I'm just missing something.

When the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. 2 Kings 2:1

Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away. Genesis 5:24

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Hebrews 11:5

Others please chime in as well,

Thanks

There is no contradiction in the Word.

From the Messiah:
Jn 3:11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

From the apostles:
Actc 2:29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

Acts 13:34 God raised him from the dead so that he will never be subject to decay. As God has said, “‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.’
35 So it is also stated elsewhere:
“‘You will not let your holy one see decay.’
36 “Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed. 37 But the one(Christ) whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.


Health&hair28, if you want to study, these articles can help you. If not, they can help someone else anyway.

http://www.truthontheweb.org/heaven.htm

http://www.truthontheweb.org/elijah.htm

 

[Laela]

I believe there is the argument of whether the spirit and the soul are the same. I don't believe they are. We are triunal beings comprised of spirit, body and soul. Only God has the Breath of Life. When He breathed into man, his soul then became a LIVING soul. That means man's soul (his mind and part of his flesh) was dead. Do you believe the soul of man was formed with his body, before God breathed into it by adding His Spirit? I do. That is why we rely on the Holy Spirit to conform our minds to the mind of Christ. Our soul is corrupted or dead, without the Holy Spirit.

The Word of God is clear that we have three parts as humans, when Paul says:

1Thess 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Only God can destroy the spirit, therefore, I asked where does the spirit of an unrepentant sinner goes. Yes, all of our spirits go back to God, as He is the one who gave it and can destroy it (dying in sin); but do you believe the spirits of those who belong to Him are going to the same place as the spirits of those who rejected Him?

In Psalms 146:3, "they return to the ground" is the body returning to dust (the grave), after the spirit leaves it. .. so, where does the spirit go?

I am not blazingthru and I am not SDA, but :
By saying spirit are you saying his emotions/personality..., what make him a living soul?

There is the body from the dust and the breath from God, all between are animated because of the breath of God. No breath, no living soul.

Gen. 2 : 7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Eccl. 12: 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Job 7: 7 Remember, O God, that my life is but a breath; my eyes will never see happiness again.
8 The eye that now sees me will see me no longer; you will look for me, but I will be no more.
9 As a cloud vanishes and is gone, so one who goes down to the grave does not return.
10 He will never come to his house again; his place will know him no more.

Job 32: 8 But it is the spirit in a person, the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding.

Job 33: 4 The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
5 Answer me then, if you can; stand up and argue your case before me.
6 I am the same as you in God’s sight; I too am a piece of clay.

Ps. 146: 3 Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.
4 When their spirit departs(returns to God - see Eccl. 12.7), they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing. 5 Blessed are those whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD their God.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

Luke 16 tells me that that the souls or spirits of the righteous and the ungodly are not in the same place...what I means is, their souls are not in the same place after death.

@Laela made a great point on the body, soul, and spirit. Body goes to the grave or back to the ground/dust but here in Luke 16, Jesus is letting us know that there are two different places after death.



22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


Mark 9:43-44 Christ is not talking about the grave. Clearly this verse means hell, where there is fire and torment.


43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Revelation tells us that hell and death are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. So hell and the lake of fire are not the same.

 

[Crown]

I am sure it is for someone.

 

[blazingthru]

@blazingthru,

I have to ask... Where do you believe the spirit of an unrepentant sinner goes after he dies?

Laela The bible refers to the spirit as the breath of life.

its is not a being inside of you that comes out at death it is the very air in your nostrils. It has no thoughts, no feelings nothing it is the air.

The sinner dies just like the saved person and remains in the grave. The saved person will arise when Jesus comes. The unrepentant will remain in the grave until the end of the 1000 years. I will edit this with the scripture.

Oh Crown has already provided the scriptures, As for my personal beliefs I base my beliefs on the scripture not what I feel internally, because it means nothing. As of yet as long as I been posting I post scriptures because scriptures is what I base my faith on. There are no unique teachings in SDA at all. If there are I been a member for four years and have not heard it yet.
Those Who Died in Christ

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [k]in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [n]and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

How can we ignore that scripture. The bible is design for studying. We are to break difficult passages down. it helps to already be confident in what you have already learned about the character of God and that is he is a loving and kind God. He will not have no one suffer in HELL forever and ever for offense that do not equal the punishment. It doesn't make any sense and insults our God. Eternal life is a gift. Why, would God give a sinner eternal life. HE wouldn't. He says in John 3:1616 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. it is a gift eternal life. Those who do not believe and believe doesn't mean to just beleive but to follow and obey, but those who do not believe will PERISH.

Okay so we know these two things, we can begin to break the difficult passages or passages that seem to contridict down.

 

[blazingthru]

Luke 16 tells me that that the souls or spirits of the righteous and the ungodly are not in the same place...what I means is, their souls are not in the same place after death.

@Laela made a great point on the body, soul, and spirit. Body goes to the grave or back to the ground/dust but here in Luke 16, Jesus is letting us know that there are two different places after death.



22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


Mark 9:43-44 Christ is not talking about the grave. Clearly this verse means hell, where there is fire and torment.


43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Revelation tells us that hell and death are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. So hell and the lake of fire are not the same.

Health&hair28, you can't based this belief on a parable. I understand these passages very well. It has more then face value meaning.

Forever and Eternal do not always mean the same in the bible. It means an end of something. in some passages when it says Eternal Fire its a fire that cannot be put out until it completes its task. In Hell which will be the earth by the way. THe fire cannot be put out until it completes the mission. It will burn until the object is no more then just ash, and the saints will walk on it.

Hell in this text is the Grave, Hell means the grave. It and death will be thrown in the lake of fire. Which just means it shall never rise again. there will never come a time where death will have a foothold and there will never ever be a fear of the grave. it will no longer exist.

Okay each passage about a subject must be compared to every other passage on the subject in the Bible. So I will try to do this as carefully as I can because I know that this is important.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

@Health&hair28, you can't based this belief on a parable. I understand these passages very well. It has more then face value meaning.

Forever and Eternal do not always mean the same in the bible. It means an end of something. in some passages when it says Eternal Fire its a fire that cannot be put out until it completes its task. In Hell which will be the earth by the way. THe fire cannot be put out until it completes the mission. It will burn until the object is no more then just ash, and the saints will walk on it.

Hell in this text is the Grave, Hell means the grave. It and death will be thrown in the lake of fire. Which just means it shall never rise again. there will never come a time where death will have a foothold and there will never ever be a fear of the grave. it will no longer exist.

Okay each passage about a subject must be compared to every other passage on the subject in the Bible. So I will try to do this as carefully as I can because I know that this is important.

Why was He tormented in the grave? The rich man was tormented and the begger was comforted.

Could the scriptures you posted mean that the bodies are raised and that they are changed? Paul said, "we shall all be changed." Meaning bodies changed from corruption to incorruption. He did say it was a mystery.

Anyway, I appreciate this discussion, so thanks for your time.

 

[blazingthru]

The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor any who go down into silence” (Psalm 115:17).

This tells us that death brings silence, and not praise, for God. Wouldn’t you praise God if you were in His presence in heaven?

“[A man’s] spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish” (Psalm 146:4).

Our plans do not continue beyond the grave because death means the cessation of life. Life stops at death.

“For in death there is no remembrance of [God]; In the grave who will give You thanks?” (Psalm 6:5).

How can we not remember God if we are with Him each day?

“For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth” (Isaiah 38:18).

Death holds no thanks, praise, or hope for God.

“Yet he shall be brought to the grave, And a vigil kept over the tomb” (Job 21:32).

The dead go to the grave and stay there.

“For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6).

This speaks for itself, doesn’t it?

“Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” (Ecclesiastes 9:10).

The Bible is overwhelmingly clear that death means death. When we die, we return to the same state of consciousness we had before we were born: none.

Job 14:10–12 (KJV 1900)
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away:
Yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea,
And the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not:
Till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, ..

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also” (John 14:1–3).

So Christ tells us that when He returns to Earth, He will raise the dead and bring them to heaven with Him, so everyone can be together in a land with no more death. The Bible describes Christ’s return by saying, “The stars of heaven fell to the earth, and the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up” (Revelation 6:13, 14). The heavens, as we know them, will be no more, and life will never be the same again.

Death might be a sleep of unconsciousness, but it is only temporary. For those who trust in God to keep His promises, eternal life without death awaits.

John 5:28 (KJV 1900)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, WHen Jesus comes the second time he will call the saved out of their graves. Those who are alive will see Jesus and be transformed but not before those in the graves.
verse 17, saying, “Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV 1900)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

 

[blazingthru]

Why was He tormented in the grave? The rich man was tormented and the begger was comforted.

Could the scriptures you posted mean that the bodies are raised and that they are changed? Paul said, "we shall all be changed." Meaning bodies changed from corruption to incorruption. He did say it was a mystery.

Anyway, I appreciate this discussion, so thanks for your time.

It is a parable, here is the explanation

Christ is speaking to the Pharisees. The Pharisees believed and taught many things that were not according to the Scriptures. Among them was that the Jews, upon their death, would go to Abraham’s bosom to live in paradise. This version of the belief in an immortal soul had its roots in the kingdom of Babylon, not in the Scriptures, and was not universally accepted by the Jewish people. (The Sadducees, another leading religious group, disbelieved in any resurrection at all.) Therefore, because Christ was speaking specifically to the Pharisees, He used their own language to emphasize His point.

The Pharisees also viewed earthly wealth as a sign of God’s favor. Thus, when Christ told the story about the rich man going to hell while the beggar found comfort in heaven, He was directly attacking this idea. In combination with the language of Abraham’s bosom, the Pharisees knew exactly what Christ meant: that the Pharisees were incorrect in their traditions, understandings, and teachings.

Christ repeatedly drew His listeners’ attention back to the Old Testament Scriptures (John 5:39, Matthew 22:29, Luke 24:27). Therefore, we should look at the abundance of Scriptural evidence that supports the sleep of death while awaiting the resurrection to draw our conclusions about death, rather than a single story that is illogical unless understood as a parable. Additionally, Christ Himself taught that the dead sleep in their graves until they hear His voice (John 5:25).

It is clear, then, that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus does not support the idea of immediate life in heaven or hell after death.

 

[Crown]

I believe there is the argument of whether the spirit and the soul are the same. I don't believe they are. We are triunal beings comprised of spirit, body and soul. Only God has the Breath of Life. When He breathed into man, his soul then became a LIVING soul. That means man's soul (his mind and part of his flesh) was dead. Do you believe the soul of man was formed with his body, before God breathed into it by adding His Spirit? I do. That is why we rely on the Holy Spirit to conform our minds to the mind of Christ. Our soul is corrupted or dead, without the Holy Spirit.

The Word of God is clear that we have three parts as humans, when Paul says:

1Thess 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Only God can destroy the spirit, therefore, I asked where does the spirit of an unrepentant sinner goes. Yes, all of our spirits go back to God, as He is the one who gave it and can destroy it (dying in sin); but do you believe the spirits of those who belong to Him are going to the same place as the spirits of those who rejected Him?

In Psalms 146:3, "they return to the ground" is the body returning to dust (the grave), after the spirit leaves it. .. so, where does the spirit go?

Let's return to the original :

http://biblos.com/1_thessalonians/5-23.htm

Spirit is the word pneuma, the breath of life.
Soul is the word psyché, what you are, you personality, emotions...
Body is the word soma (we agree with that).

No pneuma, no psyché (well... sleeping).

An animal is also a living soul, nephesh.

Let me post this again. Please take the time to read this article.

The pagan immortal soul and double doctrine:
[FONT=&quot]http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d060101.htm[/FONT]

 

[blazingthru]

Why was He tormented in the grave? The rich man was tormented and the begger was comforted.

Could the scriptures you posted mean that the bodies are raised and that they are changed? Paul said, "we shall all be changed." Meaning bodies changed from corruption to incorruption. He did say it was a mystery.

Anyway, I appreciate this discussion, so thanks for your time.

Well, we know that we really do not feel up to talking to anyone if we are in torment, here they are having a dialogue really? Also he asked for a drop of water, what is that? It does nothing to quench anyone's thirst. This one of the reasons why we know this is not a true story. In any case, the rich man is the Jew, and the beggar is the gentile it means that the begger will finally get the knowledge of God, he so desperately needs and the rich man will no longer have that title of Gods chosen people.

When Jesus comes those who are saved will put on incorruptable. not those who are lost. Those who are lost will remain in the grave and its a sad day for those who are alive and are lost, for they will all die and lie where they are for 1000 years. but I will get to that later.

Matt 13:40 tell us that the lost will be reserved until the end of the world.
Matthew 13:36-43

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Tares Explained

36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the [a]tares of the field.” 37 And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the [b]end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40 So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the [c]end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom [d]all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, [e]let him hear.

John 12:48
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
The wages of sin is death;" (not everlasting life in hell-fire) "but the gift of God is eternal life." And so the wages of sin is death. It is not everlasting life in fire. It is not everlasting life in heaven. It is not everlasting life in purgatory. It is not everlasting life in hell. It is not everlasting life at all. It is not life of any kind, any fashion, any where, any time, any place. It is the opposite of life-death. And that's the punishment that the wicked receive-death.

 

[Crown]

Why was He tormented in the grave? The rich man was tormented and the begger was comforted.

Could the scriptures you posted mean that the bodies are raised and that they are changed? Paul said, "we shall all be changed." Meaning bodies changed from corruption to incorruption. He did say it was a mystery.

Anyway, I appreciate this discussion, so thanks for your time.

You can not take a parable and ignore what the scriptures say.

The Messiah himself said : no one.

Dan. 12:1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


1 Thes. 4: 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


No one meets the Lord before another one.

 

[Rainbow Dash]

You can not take a parable and ignore what the scriptures say.

The Messiah himself said : no one.

Dan. 12:1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


1 Thes. 4: 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


No one meets the Lord before another one.

Crown,

I'm not ignoring, I trying to reconcile them all...

Making sure I understand you....

Are saying no one is in heaven or hell at this time?

All the dead are in the grave awaiting judgement (hell, lake of fire) or resurrection unto life (heaven)?

If so I understand...

 

[Crown]

Crown,

I'm not ignoring, I trying to reconcile them all...

Making sure I understand you....

Are saying no one is in heaven or hell at this time?

All the dead are in the grave awaiting judgement (hell, lake of fire) or resurrection unto life (heaven)?

If so I understand...

Halleluyah!
Praise the Lord!

 

[Rainbow Dash]

Halleluyah!
Praise the Lord!

 

[blazingthru]

I believe there is the argument of whether the spirit and the soul are the same. I don't believe they are. We are triunal beings comprised of spirit, body and soul. Only God has the Breath of Life. When He breathed into man, his soul then became a LIVING soul. That means man's soul (his mind and part of his flesh) was dead. Do you believe the soul of man was formed with his body, before God breathed into it by adding His Spirit? I do. That is why we rely on the Holy Spirit to conform our minds to the mind of Christ. Our soul is corrupted or dead, without the Holy Spirit.

The Word of God is clear that we have three parts as humans, when Paul says:

1Thess 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Only God can destroy the spirit, therefore, I asked where does the spirit of an unrepentant sinner goes. Yes, all of our spirits go back to God, as He is the one who gave it and can destroy it (dying in sin); but do you believe the spirits of those who belong to Him are going to the same place as the spirits of those who rejected Him?

In Psalms 146:3, "they return to the ground" is the body returning to dust (the grave), after the spirit leaves it. .. so, where does the spirit go?

The spirit is the Breath of life and the soul is the same as the body, it is not separate from the body. it is connected to the body

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



All man not just the saved but all man's spirit or breath returns to God.

Job 27:3 (KJV)
3 All the while my breath is in me,
And the spirit of God is in my nostrils;



the body and soul are the same, just that with the breath in it it becomes a living soul
Genesis 2:7 (KJV 1900)
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.



Ecclesiastes 3:19
19 For the fate of people and the fate of animals is the same. z As one dies, so dies the other; they all have the same breath. People have no advantage over animals since everything is futile.

"spirit," is used 948 times in the Scripture and yet not one time is it ever shown to have life, personality, feeling, wisdom; nor is it ever given any attributes of personality.

BODY + BREATH = SOUL

Now I understand that some believe that the soul never dies, but God said it does. he says the souls that sins will die.

Ezekiel 18:20 (KJV)
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.






Psalm 104:29 (KJV)
29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled:
Thou takest away their breath, they die,
And return to their dust.

 

[blazingthru]

Enoch, Elijah and Moses are in heaven, But they are there for specific reasons. Enoch walked with God. He spent all of his time with God. God took him. We assume he is in heaven. I don't know that text by heart. I will have to look at it again, but for now I believe he is in heaven. Elijah the Prophet is in heaven. He represents those who will never see death. Moses represent the Law, and those who have died and were resurrected. Moses is the great
lawgiver, and Elijah is the greatest of the Old Testament prophets. Again this is from memory, When Jesus died didn't the graves open. I believe that those who were resurrected also ascended to heaven when Jesus returned. It's not determined for us to really know who is in heaven or not, but to know that we have a appointment where we all we go to heaven at the same time.

 

[Crown]

Enoch, Elijah and Moses are in heaven, But they are there for specific reasons. Enoch walked with God. He spent all of his time with God. God took him. We assume he is in heaven. I don't know that text by heart. I will have to look at it again, but for now I believe he is in heaven. Elijah the Prophet is in heaven. He represents those who will never see death. Moses represent the Law, and those who have died and were resurrected. Moses is the great
lawgiver, and Elijah is the greatest of the Old Testament prophets. Again this is from memory, When Jesus died didn't the graves open. I believe that those who were resurrected also ascended to heaven when Jesus returned. It's not determined for us to really know who is in heaven or not, but to know that we have a appointment where we all we go to heaven at the same time.

Are you saying that some people know better than the Word of God made flesh?
The Word of God in heaven did not know about Elijah, Moses and Enoch in heaven. Is it what you are saying?

Do you have another interpretation for this scripture from the Word of God:

Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Please, don't pick up Mat. 18, it's a vision.

 

[Galadriel]

The Latin infernus (inferum, inferi), the Greek Hades, and the Hebrew sheol correspond to the word hell. Infernus is derived from the root in; hence it designates hell as a place within and below the earth. Haides, formed from the root fid, to see, and a privative, denotes an invisible, hidden, and dark place; thus it is similar to the term hell. The derivation of sheol is doubtful.

It is generally supposed to come from the Hebrew root meaning, "to be sunk in, to be hollow"; accordingly it denotes a cave or a place under the earth. In the Old Testament (Septuagint hades; Vulgate infernus) sheol is used quite in general to designate the kingdom of the dead, of the good (Genesis 37:35) as well as of the bad (Numbers 16:30); it means hell in the strict sense of the term, as well as the limbo of the Fathers. But, as the limbo of the Fathers ended at the time of Christ's Ascension, hades (Vulgate infernus) in the New Testament always designates the hell of the damned.

Since Christ's Ascension the just no longer go down to the lower world, but they dwell in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:1). However, in the New Testament the term Gehenna is used more frequently in preference to hades, as a name for the place of punishment of the damned. Gehenna is the Hebrew gê-hinnom (Nehemiah 11:30), or the longer form gê-ben-hinnom (Joshua 15:8), and gê-benê-hinnom (2 Kings 23:10) "valley of the sons of Hinnom". Hinnom seems to be the name of a person not otherwise known. The Valley of Hinnom is south of Jerusalem and is now called Wadi er-rababi. It was notorious as the scene, in earlier days, of the horrible worship of Moloch. For this reason it was defiled by Josias (2 Kings 23:10), cursed by Jeremias (Jeremiah 7:31-33), and held in abomination by the Jews, who, accordingly, used the name of this valley to designate the abode of the damned (Targ. Jon., Gen., iii, 24; Henoch, c. xxvi). And Christ adopted this usage of the term.

Besides Hades and Gehenna, we find in the New Testament many other names for the abode of the damned. It is called "lower hell" (Vulgate tartarus) (2 Peter 2:4), "abyss" (Luke 8:31 and elsewhere), "place of torments" (Luke 16:28), "pool of fire" (Revelation 19:20 and elsewhere), "furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:42, 50), "unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12, and elsewhere), "everlasting fire" (Matthew 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7), "exterior darkness" (Matthew 7:12; 22:13; 25:30), "mist" or "storm of darkness" (2 Peter 2:17; Jude 13). The state of the damned is called "destruction" (apoleia, Philippians 3:19 and elsewhere), "perdition" (olethros, 1 Timothy 6:9), "eternal destruction" (olethros aionios, 2 Thessalonians 1:9), "corruption" (phthora, Galatians 6:8), "death" (Romans 6:21), "second death" (Revelation 2:11 and elsewhere).

(Source, Catholic Encyclopedia online)

 

[Galadriel]

Enoch, Elijah and Moses are in heaven, But they are there for specific reasons. Enoch walked with God. He spent all of his time with God. God took him. We assume he is in heaven. I don't know that text by heart. I will have to look at it again, but for now I believe he is in heaven. Elijah the Prophet is in heaven. He represents those who will never see death. Moses represent the Law, and those who have died and were resurrected. Moses is the great
lawgiver, and Elijah is the greatest of the Old Testament prophets. Again this is from memory, When Jesus died didn't the graves open. I believe that those who were resurrected also ascended to heaven when Jesus returned. It's not determined for us to really know who is in heaven or not, but to know that we have a appointment where we all we go to heaven at the same time.

I still don't understand the basis upon which you're saying we die, "sleep" in our graves and don't go to Heaven (or Hell) until the Final Judgment. This is what you're saying, correct? (Sorry if I seem dense, but just wanted to understand your POV better).

 

[Laela]

Blazin', there is NO VOID in God. The earth was without form and void until God breathed life into it. How can anything that has the essence of God in it be "nothing" if it's living??

I agree thoughts/feelings or emotions are physical aspects - controlled by the mind. But the spirit is not just a puff of air, or nothingness, as it came from God.

Maybe you can elaborate more on this... so I get what you're saying? Because I'm not getting it

@Laela The bible refers to the spirit as the breath of life.

its is not a being inside of you that comes out at death it is the very air in your nostrils. It has no thoughts, no feelings nothing it is the air.

And don't discount the importance of the Holy Spirit in understanding Scripture...we cannot study God's Word and get full knowledge/understanding just only our intellect...there is revelation knowledge via the Holy Spirit that we get in our "knower". Jesus says he who has ears to hear, let him hear and that means spiritually. Abiding in the spirit isn't the same as being emotional - where do folks get this? Anyway, I respect your opinion and agree that we are to study the Word to show ourselves approved...by God, not man. He is the one we must please.

How can we ignore that scripture. The bible is design for studying. We are to break difficult passages down. it helps to already be confident in what you have already learned about the character of God and that is he is a loving and kind God. He will not have no one suffer in HELL forever and ever for offense that do not equal the punishment. It doesn't make any sense and insults our God. Eternal life is a gift. Why, would God give a sinner eternal life. HE wouldn't. He says in John 3:1616 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. it is a gift eternal life. Those who do not believe and believe doesn't mean to just beleive but to follow and obey, but those who do not believe will PERISH.

Okay so we know these two things, we can begin to break the difficult passages or passages that seem to contridict down.

 

[blazingthru]

Are you saying that some people know better than the Word of God made flesh?
The Word of God in heaven did not know about Elijah, Moses and Enoch in heaven. Is it what you are saying?

Do you have another interpretation for this scripture from the Word of God:

Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Please, don't pick up Mat. 18, it's a vision.

Crown I don't understand your question. Elijah and Moses are in heaven. Please help me to understand your question.

2 Kings 2:11

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11 As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a [a]whirlwind to heaven.

Jude 1:9

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you
Luke 9:28-37

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Transfiguration

28 Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and [a]gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in [b]glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him. 33 And as [c]these were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three [d]tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not realizing what he was saying. 34 While he was saying this, a cloud [e]formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!” 36 And when the voice [f]had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and reported to no one in those days any of the things which they had seen.

You can't discount the scripture above as just a vision, this is two fold, first Elijah and Moses cannot be in heaven without Jesus going to the cross. So they came to encourage Jesus to complete the task, they wanted to remain where they were, In addition to that, God is confirming with two witnessess, the prophet and the lawgiver, that Jesus is his son etc., Don't confused these two with the witnessess in revelations thats not actual human beings. its the old and new testament or the 1-2 testament.

 

[blazingthru]

I still don't understand the basis upon which you're saying we die, "sleep" in our graves and don't go to Heaven (or Hell) until the Final Judgment. This is what you're saying, correct? (Sorry if I seem dense, but just wanted to understand your POV better).

Yes death is sleep nothing more, its a dreamless sleep. You do not go to heaven or hell that is reserved until the end of the world, well those who are perishing. I posted all of this above.

Jesus will return to bring those in Christ to heaven with him. the purpose of this is to review the books. Heaven is not an eternal place, God says he will create a new heaven and a new earth so its just temporary. Actually 1000 years. Then the New City of Jerasaleum will come down from heaven and rest on this what will become flat land. All of the unsaved will arise and plan to war against the city.
The New Heaven and Earth

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. ( this is after judgement) 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will [a]dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them


Revelations 20:11

Judgment at the Throne of God

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose [g]presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and [h]books were opened; and another [i]book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the [j]books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Notice this says the dead. not those in heaven, not those that jesus made alive again and brought to heaven with hin, but the dead.

Revelation 20
Satan Bound

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain [a]in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; (Symbolic) 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of [b]their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Satan Freed, Doomed

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the [c]seashore. 9 And they came up on the [d]broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the [e]saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (hence the earth will actually become a large grave for the lost and satan and his angels this entire earth will be consumed with fire. that is HELL, the city will be in the midst of it.)

The Bible says the wicked suffer "death" (Romans 6:23), will suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30), "shall perish" (Psalms 37:20), will "burn" up (Malachi 4:1), "shall be destroyed together" (Psalms 37:38), will "consume away" (Psalms 37:20), "shall be cut off" (Psalms 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalms 62:3). God will "destroy" them (Psalms 145:20), and "fire shall devour them" (Psalms 21:9). Note that all of these references make it clear that the wicked die and are destroyed. They do not live forever in misery.

The Greek word "Gehenna" is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Ge-Hinnom," which means the "Valley of Hinnom." This valley, which lies immediately south and west of Jerusalem, was a place where dead animals, garbage, and other refuse were dumped. Fire burned constantly, as it does at modern sanitation dump sites. The Bible uses "Gehenna" or the "Valley of Hinnom" as a symbol of the fire that will destroy the lost at the end of time. The fire of Gehenna was not unending. Otherwise it would be still burning southwest of Jerusalem today. Neither will the fire of hell be unending.

 

[blazingthru]

Blazin', there is NO VOID in God. The earth was without form and void until God breathed life into it. How can anything that has the essence of God in it be "nothing" if it's living??.

Well, I don't mean it as deep as that, it's like the air, one moment you feel it the next it's gone. As you place your hand over your mouth and feel the air as you breath you can't hold it, it's not viewable unless you blow in a window in the cold, and it imprints the window but eventually its gone, that is the air in our body only it comes from God so it is not realy the same as the air flowing in the wind, this air gives life giving powers and it allows us to become a living soul. Without it, we are just a body. It does not hold your thoughts, your deeds, your feelings. All of that is part of the soul which is the body. However, without the breath of life, it's just a lifeless body. The breath of life returns to God whom gave it.

[/QUOTE]I agree thoughts/feelings or emotions are physical aspects - controlled by the mind. But the spirit is not just a puff of air, or nothingness, as it came from God.

Maybe you can elaborate more on this... so I get what you're saying? Because I'm not getting it

Spirit and Breath mean the same things. Solomon calls it the spirit, but Genesis calls it the breath, Job calls it the breath and the spirit at the same time in his nostrils. Job 27:3 God gives the spirit to create, but Genesis says He gave the breath to create. It only makes sense when we understand that the two words are used interchangeably and mean the same thing.

The soul does not go in and out of the body; neither does it have an independent existence outside of the body. Because the Greek word “psuche,” meaning “life,” has sometimes been translated as “soul” in our King James Version, some have drawn wrong conclusions; but only because they apply a false definition to the word “soul.” Millions have been taught that the soul possesses a natural immortality, and every time they read or hear the word they assume something that is totally false and unbiblical. Not even one time in the Bible is the soul referred to as being immortal or undying. the soul is the conscious life which resulted when God added the breath or spirit to the body

 

[blazingthru]

text from the book, spirit of the dead, joe crews

Death is a Sleep


In harmony with all the rest of the Bible, Job describes a period of unconscious sleep in the grave before awaking to receive his reward. It agrees with Daniel, who spoke of the coming of Christ in these words, “And at that time thy people shall be delivered ... And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:1, 2). There is a reason that so many inspired writers speak of death as a sleep. It is a perfect description of the state of the dead. When a tired man lies down at night he is immediately wrapped in sleep. As far as he is concerned, the very next moment he is awakened by the rising sun. He is totally unconscious of anything that transpired while he slept. So it is with the sleep of death.

Lazarus had died. Jesus said to His disciples, “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead” (John 11:11-14).


Here is a classic example of the true Bible teaching about death. Christ called death a sleep. Later, He stood by the rock-hewn sepulchre of His friend and cried out, “Lazarus, come forth!” He did not say, “Lazarus, come down.” Lazarus was not up in heaven, nor was he anywhere else, except inside the walls of his tomb. In response to the call of Jesus, he awoke from his sleep of death and walked out into the sunlight.


Many exaggerated tales have circulated about people who came back from the dead but this is the most authentic story on record. There is absolutely no doubt that Lazarus had been dead for four days. His sisters protested when Jesus ordered the stone to be rolled away from the door. Martha said, “... Lord, by this time he stinketh” (John 11:39).


Most modern accounts of patients who resuscitate from heart failure include dramatic recitals of glorious views of heaven. What did this righteous man have to say about his four days of death? Did he report celestial visions of heavenly reward? Not a word. He had been asleep, just as Jesus had indicated. It had been like a moment of oblivion.


By the way, what kind of unspeakable punishment would it have been to bring Lazarus back into this dark world after being in the presence of God? Surely he would have begged not to return, had he truly been enjoying the rewards of the righteous. A resumption of earthly life would have been worse than the horror of hell in comparison to ninety-six hours in Paradise. Certainly our Lord would never have been guilty of playing such a trick on His friend Lazarus.


Why do we find it difficult to believe the simple terminology that Jesus used in describing death? Certainly we have no problem in understanding the nature of sleep. Suppose a man lies fast asleep on a park bench. So soundly does he sleep that he is totally unaware of the stealthy approach of an attacker. In another moment he lies dead in a pool of blood. Now, according to the popular view of death, this man who knew nothing while he was sleeping, suddenly knows everything as his soul leaves his body. But how could that be true? Jesus said death is a sleep. If the man knew nothing while sleeping, how could he know any more after death? Christ’s words would have no meaning if we twist them to mean whatever we want to believe.


We are not left to wonder about the nature of this death-sleep. Many Bible writers give detailed explanations of what it is like. “Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish” (Psalm 146:3, 4).


Out of all the puzzling aspects of death which could be discussed, the inspired writers most often talked about the unconscious nature of it. Never once do we find any of the exciting descriptions of life after death which mark the modern version of the doctrine. Theology has adopted its teaching directly from the pleasing forms of pagan worship. David said, “He returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” Solomon wrote, “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun... Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10).


If one deliberately tried to produce stronger words and expressions to support a totally dreamless sleep in death, he would be hard put to match these words of the wise man. Just suppose for a moment that the same forceful statements were made to assert consciousness after death. In other words, suppose Solomon had said, “Their love, and their hatred, and their envy will continue.., for there is work and knowledge and wisdom in the grave whither thou goest.” Such an unambiguous statement would rightly be the end of all debate on the subject. Who could argue with it?


But here is the incredible truth! Not only does the Bible contain no such statement, but it repeatedly declares the opposite! Yet people continue to believe only what they want to believe. Passing over the explicit verses given by numerous inspired authors, which tell the truth about death, multitudes blindly follow empty traditions learned from parents or pastor.


Again we read, “For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day” (Isaiah 38:18, 19). Would not the righteous dead praise God if they were ushered into heaven at their death? David repeats the same timeless truth, “The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence” (Psalm 115:17). “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?” (Psalm 6:5).

 

[JinaRicci]

text from the book, spirit of the dead, joe crews

Death is a Sleep

Lazarus had died. Jesus said to His disciples, “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead” (John 11:11-14).

Here is a classic example of the true Bible teaching about death. Christ called death a sleep. Later, He stood by the rock-hewn sepulchre of His friend and cried out, “Lazarus, come forth!” He did not say, “Lazarus, come down.” Lazarus was not up in heaven, nor was he anywhere else, except inside the walls of his tomb. In response to the call of Jesus, he awoke from his sleep of death and walked out into the sunlight.

Most modern accounts of patients who resuscitate from heart failure include dramatic recitals of glorious views of heaven. What did this righteous man have to say about his four days of death? Did he report celestial visions of heavenly reward? Not a word. He had been asleep, just as Jesus had indicated. It had been like a moment of oblivion.

blazingthru You've given us (IMO) very good illustrations. Jesus went to the tomb to resurrect or 'wake up' Lazarus. And after Jesus' own death, his followers went to the tomb expecting to find His body.

Luke 24: 5 In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6 He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7 ‘The Son of Man must be delivered over to the hands of sinners, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ”

Even when the disciples didn't believe the women, they ran to the tomb expecting to find His body. It was not until they had spoken to Him twice, touched Him and seen Him eat, did they start to believe (vs 13-49) that He was alive. He only ascended to heaven after he had appeared to them 3 times.

51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

So going back to the repentant thief on the cross, Jesus could not have been telling him that he was going to be with him in heaven that same day (Luke 23:43). Jesus himself was not in Paradise. He was in the grave. Crown already posted about the comma placement.

He was saying: "Today (present tense) you will be with me in paradise."

I'm really glad to see this discussion (no matter how many times it's been done ) because of the wide attention given to recent accounts by patients of heaven like the 'Heaven is for real' book which are not consistent with scripture.

I've said this before but I understand how people would want to think of their loved ones in heaven in a better place because that gives them comfort. But we've seen so much danger in this deception because it attempts to take away the authority on death and salvation from God and place it on humans. The hope we should have is that we and our loved ones who are faithful will be united with Christ when He returns and receive the gift of eternal life.

 

[Crown]

@Crown I don't understand your question. Elijah and Moses are in heaven. Please help me to understand your question.

2 Kings 2:11

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11 As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a [a]whirlwind to heaven.

Jude 1:9

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you
Luke 9:28-37

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Transfiguration

28 Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and [a]gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in [b]glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him. 33 And as [c]these were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three [d]tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not realizing what he was saying. 34 While he was saying this, a cloud [e]formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!” 36 And when the voice [f]had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and reported to no one in those days any of the things which they had seen.

You can't discount the scripture above as just a vision, this is two fold, first Elijah and Moses cannot be in heaven without Jesus going to the cross. So they came to encourage Jesus to complete the task, they wanted to remain where they were, In addition to that, God is confirming with two witnessess, the prophet and the lawgiver, that Jesus is his son etc., Don't confused these two with the witnessess in revelations thats not actual human beings. its the old and new testament or the 1-2 testament.

I was referring to Mat. 17, not 18.
You pick up Mat. 17 anyway, I told you not, it's a vision. You agree about parable, right?

My question:
How do you explain that the Word of God made flesh did not know that 3 men, Enoch, Elijah and Moses, were in heaven?

Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Jn. 1: 18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[3762 /oudeís ("not one, none") categorically excludes, declaring as a fact that no valid example exists.] http://concordances.org/greek/3762.htm


My second question:
Did these 3 men obtain their immortality before the Son of man, Christ?

1 Tim. 6: 11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.


My third question:
If these 3 men were in heaven before the Word of God was made flesh, was death destroyed before the perfect sacrifice?

2 Tim. 1: 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.


Please, don't put a long text trying to explain, usually I don't read them. Let's stay with the scriptures. Give me a link if you want.

 

[Crown]

@blazingthru You've given us (IMO) very good illustrations. Jesus went to the tomb to resurrect or 'wake up' Lazarus. And after Jesus' own death, his followers went to the tomb expecting to find His body.

Luke 24: 5 In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6 He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7 ‘The Son of Man must be delivered over to the hands of sinners, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ”

Even when the disciples didn't believe the women, they ran to the tomb expecting to find His body. It was not until they had spoken to Him twice, touched Him and seen Him eat, did they start to believe (vs 13-49) that He was alive. He only ascended to heaven after he had appeared to them 3 times.

51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

So going back to the repentant thief on the cross, Jesus could not have been telling him that he was going to be with him in heaven that same day (Luke 23:43). Jesus himself was not in Paradise. He was in the grave. Crown already posted about the comma placement.

He was saying: "Today (present tense) you will be with me in paradise."

I'm really glad to see this discussion (no matter how many times it's been done ) because of the wide attention given to recent accounts by patients of heaven like the 'Heaven is for real' book which are not consistent with scripture.

I've said this before but I understand how people would want to think of their loved ones in heaven in a better place because that gives them comfort. But we've seen so much danger in this deception because it attempts to take away the authority on death and salvation from God and place it on humans. The hope we should have is that we and our loved ones who are faithful will be united with Christ when He returns and receive the gift of eternal life.

Not for you, JinaRicci, but for the viewers. It was the third time before His visible ascension.

Jn 20: 1The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Reminds this:
Lev. 23: 10Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.

 

[JinaRicci]

Crown Thank you for the clarification!

 

[blazingthru]

I was referring to Mat. 17, not 18.
You pick up Mat. 17 anyway, I told you not, it's a vision. You agree about parable, right?

My question:
How do you explain that the Word of God made flesh did not know that 3 men, Enoch, Elijah and Moses, were in heaven?

Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Jn. 1: 18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[3762 /oudeís ("not one, none") categorically excludes, declaring as a fact that no valid example exists.] http://concordances.org/greek/3762.htm

This is an eyewitness testimony not a vision. These men were not sleeping, or in a trance Matthew, Mark, and Luke all record the experience of the transfiguration of Jesus on the Mountain.

Well, if we believe the bible, then we believe what it says. The bible tells us that Elijah and Moses are in heaven. We can take the text below to mean that no one can go to heaven on his or her own. Either God calls us or Jesus resurrect us, but Elijah and Moses are examples that we can go to heaven without seeing death and Moses represents the fact that even after death, we can go to heaven, but we can’t do either on our own. Only Jesus has this power. HE is the Archangel, and he has the power to draw us from the grave or retrieve us from the earth as he has promised in his word. Now the disciples knew of Moses, knew about his character what he wore, what he looked liked same as Elijah, no one said their names. They just knew from the stories of old who these two men were. But they were gone for 1000 of years. But as soon as they saw these men they knew who they were and what happen to them, they knew that Elijah was a great prophet, and they knew that Moses was the lawgiver and they knew one of these men did not see death and the other did.
According to 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it is the "voice of the archangel" which opens the graves of the righteous dead when Jesus comes at the end of the world. in Romans 5:14. He said "nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses ...," proving that the power of death was broken for the first time in the resurrection of Moses.
Mark 9:9 it says, "tell no man what things they had seen." And Luke 9:32 specifically states that they were awake, not asleep or in a trance, when they "saw His glory and the two men that stood with Him."
2 Peter 1:16-18. "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount." The transfiguration was a miniature of the Second Coming, and Moses was there to represent those who died and would be resurrected when Jesus comes, and Elijah was there to represent those who would be alive when Jesus returned and would never taste even the first death.