Real Talk: Rape, Behavior and the Christian

[Guitarhero]

I'd like true christian talk of this issue. What is the christian viewpoint of drinking, getting impaired, getting into precarious sexually connotative situations? What is christian responsibility regarding dating behavior and where should christian women draw the line? Where should the line be drawn among men?

To make it clear, I'm not asking anyone to blame victims of rape, male nor female. I'm simply asking what are the appropriate lines we need to draw around us as believers in the dating situation? It's understood that anyone can be raped because it is a crime. But is it permissible for christians to be so intimate with another that they are placing themselves in a situation for sex to occur? Is it wise to avoid certain behaviors like drugs and drinking to keep yourself out of situations where you could be abused? Is it for moral reasons, health reasons or both? If you have any scripture as the basis, please provide.

 

[Poohbear]

1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil."

 

[Guitarhero]

Is that just for the sake of morality or is it also for our safety benefit - not that it would prevent all harm in any situation? What say you?

 

[Poohbear]

I would say for the sake of both morality and safety.

 

[makeupgirl]

Well, as a rape survivor, the experience taught me to be careful and not wear my heart on my sleeve. I still have a sensitivity to some men and I have sense enough to stay away because my radar has gone up or the Holy Spirit has let me know to run away as fast as I can. I didn't drink when I was attacked. I was at home, getting ready for bed and a neighbor that was a friend was so horny (in his own words) that he couldn't help himself and I became the target that took his edge off. I'll never forget the attack and even though I have forgave him and gotten help for it, it's not something that goes away. The attack is always fresh and I got buck wild after that experience and just didn't care who I slept with (luckily it was only 3 men since then and yes one of them was my attacker consensually) I was scared, still in denial, but I learned that I couldn't allow myself to be that vulnerable anymore, even in my own house. If I drink in public it's maybe 1-2 glasses and I'm making sure I'm not going to get drunk (plenty of water and food) but also I'm more aware when I'm out and about.


The bible does say to avoid being drunk, according to Ephesians 5:18 and Proverbs 23: 29 - 35

Eph 5:18 "Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit."

Prov 23:29-35 "
29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaints?
Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?
30 Those who linger over wine,
who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.
31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup,
when it goes down smoothly! ...
32 In the end it bites like a snake

and poisons like a viper.
33 Your eyes will see strange sights
and your mind imagine confusing things.
34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,
lying on top of the rigging.
35 “They hit me,” you will say, “but I’m not hurt!
They beat me, but I don’t feel it!
When will I wake up
so I can find another drink?”

1 Cor 6:19-20 says that I'm not my own, my body has been brought with a price and my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. (paraphrasing)

So, all those times I was getting drunk, sleeping around as a believer, I was not glorifying God in any way. I was a very bad gal.

As far as dating goes, I rarely date to be honest. The last one I had was ok (if you like walking in the park and driving around the city) but it wasn't any kissing or anything sexual (nope I made that mistake on the 2nd and final date ... not very smart, I know) but like Jesus said, "the flesh is weak but the spirit is willing" so I can easily give into current desires and face some consequences or I can obey God and wait for hubby. We have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as believers to lead and guide is into all truths and every aspect of our lives if we just let him.

It is definitely wise to not put ourselves in situations where we can be taking abused or taken advantage of.

2 Peter 19 says this

19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.

1 Cor 6:12


12 “Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything.



It's also both moral and health reasons to not put ourselves in the situations where drugs or alcohol is in the mist.

(I hope I answered your question right....I've been off my rocker today (sinuses, allergies, and hypoglycemic attack)

 

[SND411]

Well, in the Old Testament, rape was bad because it was considered damaging someone's property. Never mind how the woman/girl felt.

Thank God the New Testament teaches us something different. Jesus called men to be in control of their OWN sexuality. He never blamed the evils that men did on women. I will forever love Christ for that.

 

[Guitarhero]

Although a tad off-topic, I find it strange and confusing the number of biblical figures that were either rapists and/or raped, Kind David being considered one of them.


But I'm leaving this thread open to wide interpretationand discussion of anything pertaining to personal safety issues regarding women, the drink, company and even friends and relatives. Wanting a biblical perspective on how best we can protect ourselves to the best of our abilities. That's no guarantee no one is going to be abused. Again, I'm reiterating that no one is blaming victims at all for being abused. This is about empowerment, how to achieve it, the biblical references and any other thing one might introduce.

SND411...that makes sense.

 

[SND411]

@Guitarhero

I am trying to look for verses that advise women on how to deal with the dangers of rape/male power among other things. I think we all agree that as women in this world, unfortunately, we must be proactive in protecting ourselves because there are a lot of people, both men and women, that take pleasure in causing our gender pain.

But I find it peculiar that I keep seeing verses, instead, advising men how to avoid women/certain situations involving women. Ironic....

 

[Poohbear]

I know I've given some short responses in this thread, but I actually started thinking more about this topic in my spare time.

I started thinking about the different stories I've heard of women getting raped. Come to think of it, there really isn't anything that can prevent us from being raped. Women aren't just raped if they are walking outside in the dark alone. Women aren't just raped after getting drunk from a party. There are women who are raped in their own homes by family members. A stranger may break in and may kill or injure the husband and then rape the wife. There are women who get raped in so many situations where they may not have been sinning or doing anything that appeared to be wrong.

But I also wanted to say this which will put a little twist to all that I've said... I've put myself in situations where I could've possibly gotten raped and never did... for example, walking alone in the dark at night, or going to the store late at night by myself... I've done this several times and I've never gotten raped. Thank God!

I think all we can do is do what we know is best to avoid situations of rape which are common like not going places alone at night (and if you have to, don't draw attention to yourself and be aware of your surroundings), not getting filthy drunk around alot of men or away from your girlfriends, dressing modestly, staying away from common places where women are raped like alleys and abandoned buildings, and keeping the doors locked in your home and maybe having a weapon at your bedside or in your nightstand for protection.

That's all I can think of. I know it doesn't have anything to do with the Bible, but we are living in an evil world and have to face the reality of life. The Bible just doesn't have the answers to everything.

 

[awhyley]

I don't usually like to quote the Old Testament too often, but this (Cor. 6/18) came to mind, "flee immorality, as every other sin man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body". Woman can be raped and attacked anywhere, in any situation, but your job as a woman, including non-Christian women, to protect yourself as best you can; scripture or no scripture.

Thank God the New Testament teaches us something different. Jesus called men to be in control of their OWN sexuality. He never blamed the evils that men did on women. I will forever love Christ for that.

Can I get some verses pls?

Although a tad off-topic, I find it strange and confusing the number of biblical figures that were either rapists and/or raped, Kind David being considered one of them.

Er, did King David rape Bathsheba? erplexed

 

[Guitarhero]

I don't usually like to quote the Old Testament too often, but this (Cor. 6/18) came to mind, "flee immorality, as every other sin man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body". Woman can be raped and attacked anywhere, in any situation, but your job as a woman, including non-Christian women, to protect yourself as best you can; scripture or no scripture.


Er, did King David rape Bathsheba? erplexed

There is commentary discussing it. She had a husband and she was just supposed to fall in love with David? I don't know for sure but...???? Hmmm.

 

[aribell]

The Old Testament is clear that women were to cry out if they were being raped. David didn't rape Bathsheba. Unlike the later situation in which Amnon raped Tamar, there's not even a mention that she resisted him. The fact that he called for her does not mean that she couldn't have resisted or pled with him. Remember that he was the king and we can't assume that she was above willingly committing adultery with the king. She later schemed with Nathan to get Solomon on the throne, so I don't think that from the biblical perspective she was ever really held up as being victimized. And Scripture does recognize the victimization of women, even the Old Testament.

Rape is condemned throughout the Old Testament, seen in Deuteronomy, Sodom and Gomorah, the rape of Tamar and so on.

 

[SND411]

The Old Testament is clear that women were to cry out if they were being raped. David didn't rape Bathsheba. Unlike the later situation in which Amnon raped Tamar, there's not even a mention that she resisted him. The fact that he called for her does not mean that she couldn't have resisted or pled with him. Remember that he was the king and we can't assume that she was above willingly committing adultery with the king. She later schemed with Nathan to get Solomon on the throne, so I don't think that from the biblical perspective she was ever really held up as being victimized. And Scripture does recognize the victimization of women, even the Old Testament.

Rape is condemned throughout the Old Testament, seen in Deuteronomy, Sodom and Gomorah, the rape of Tamar and so on.

Rape is condemned because women were considered property and an honor-liability to the family. Rape was bad when the woman in question was either a virgin or a betrothed/married woman. Good luck being a gentile woman that was raped in those times, there were no laws ensuring their protection.

Throughout the Old Testament, women are constantly victims. No, the Old Testament does not come out and explicitly supports this (well, sometimes), but it does not harshly condemn it either.

 

[SND411]

Can I get some verses pls?

Matthew 5:27-28

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

He tells them directly that THEY must control their heart, mind, and body. Notice how he never even mentions what a woman may be wearing.

 

[miss cosmic]

i think the admonishing against drunkeness is clear - do not get drunk. if you can drink and not get drunk, fine. my former pastor used to define 'getting drunk' as starting at the point when you feel 'the buzz', what some people call 'slightly tipsy'. he said that was just a degree of being drunk and therefore unchristian, and that if you could not stick to just the one or two glasses or one beer, then don't drink at all. if you're not drunk then there is no danger of getting yourself into situations where you might be taken advantage of because of your impaired judgement and lack of control.
as others have said however, women are raped in all sorts of situations, so not drinking does not mean you will never get raped, just as drinking to the point of falling down drunk does not mean you WILL get raped.

as for dating - there are so many dos and don'ts for dating in a christian context, some of them contradictory. there is no magic formula.
i think within the confines of the bible (maintain sexual and moral purity), each woman should pray for guidance in this on what is the best path for her. some women actively seek men, going out to be seen, joining dating sites etc, while others do nothing but pray for god to bring their man to them. you can find support for both methods, married people who will tell you what they did and how it worked for them, but at the end of the day, its YOUR life and YOU must work out your method with God.
that's just my take on things.

 

[Do_Si_Dos]

This actually happened to a friend. The friend was drinking at someone's home, and a forced himself on her. It took her years to realize that what happened was not my her fault , whether she was drinking or not. Not that is is anyone's business, but no, she was not falling over drunk. Drinking does not give someone else the right to take advantage of another person, PERIOD.

However, her experience tought me to be careful about drinking with others, and to also very mindful about going to a guy's home alone. I watched my friend deal with the aftermath of being sexually assaulted, and it was not pretty at all. She struggled with feeling like it was her fault, because alcohol was involved.

I think as Christians, we should not be so concerned with the responsiblity of the woman, but concerned with helping her recover from what happened. It is a very traumatic and life changing experience. Until one has been violated on that level, is very easy to pass judgement and say what one should or shouldn't do.

The point is EVRYONE has be careful in every situation. Always set clear boundaries about what is and isn't acceptable for you. Most importantly, watch and pray at all times.

 

[LoveisYou]

When a woman is raped, does she form an ungodly spiritual soul tie with her rapist? I want to know because the consequences of rape seem far more than physical/emotional (although it is incredibly damaging on these levels), there seem to be some affect on the spiritual level (women becoming promiscuous or withdrawn etc.). Do you have to pray to break a soul tie with a rapist/molester?

 

[Do_Si_Dos]

When a woman is raped, does she form an ungodly spiritual soul tie with her rapist? I want to know because the consequences of rape seem far more than physical/emotional (although it is incredibly damaging on these levels), there seem to be some affect on the spiritual level (women becoming promiscuous or withdrawn etc.). Do you have to pray to break a soul tie with a rapist/molester?

Yes and no..... The victim is not is tied the rapist in the same sense as with two consenting people, but it robs the victim of a sense of self. For some, it leaves them feeling very empty. It can be compared to mourning the lost of a very close friend or family member, but you are mourning the lost of self. To be violated like that robs you of self esteem, joy, peace, love, trust, sense of self, view of the world and lots of other things. I believe the victim is in bondage, and the prayer should be for freedom.

Pray that God will help the young lady with strength, and remind her of his unconditionally love.

 

[Shimmie]

The Old Testament is clear that women were to cry out if they were being raped. David didn't rape Bathsheba. Unlike the later situation in which Amnon raped Tamar, there's not even a mention that she resisted him. The fact that he called for her does not mean that she couldn't have resisted or pled with him. Remember that he was the king and we can't assume that she was above willingly committing adultery with the king. She later schemed with Nathan to get Solomon on the throne, so I don't think that from the biblical perspective she was ever really held up as being victimized.

And Scripture does recognize the victimization of women, even the Old Testament.

Rape is condemned throughout the Old Testament, seen in Deuteronomy, Sodom and Gomorah, the rape of Tamar and so on.

Thank you Nicola for your entire post. It's so important for the truth to be shared and not the mis-interpretations.

Bathsheba with King David, was a willing vessel.

As for women as 'property' in the Old Testament... for the sake of time, to name a few.

Sarah was indeed loved and regarded as Abraham's wife, not his property. She was neither bought or sold, she was actually sacred, for God threatened the lives of two kings for their aspirations to sleep with her.

Ruth was not the property of Boaz. He loved her enough to clear the ties that bound her to another covenant so that he could marry her.

Queen Esther, was just that, "Queen", the King did not regard her as property.

Reading the Word, one will see that women were honoured and that any reproach upon them, any act of violence was not acceptable.

 

[SND411]

Thank you Nicola for your entire post. It's so important for the truth to be shared and not the mis-interpretations.

Bathsheba with King David, was a willing vessel.

As for women as 'property' in the Old Testament... for the sake of time, to name a few.

Sarah was indeed loved and regarded as Abraham's wife, not his property. She was neither bought or sold, she was actually sacred, for God threatened the lives of two kings for their aspirations to sleep with her.

Ruth was not the property of Boaz. He loved her enough to clear the ties that bound her to another covenant so that he could marry her.

Queen Esther, was just that, "Queen", the King did not regard her as property.

Reading the Word, one will see that women were honoured and that any reproach upon them, any act of violence was not acceptable.

So a few examples override the rest of the Scripture? It's convenient that you ignore thousands of other women treated the EXACT opposite.

The price for raping a virgin was in shekels to HER FATHER if he refused to marry her. How in the world can money compensate the physical and emotional pain from sexual assault?

And of course the King regarded Queen Esther as property. Look what happened to Vashti. He could kill her at any time at his own will. That is why it was so dangerous for her to speak with the King unannounced.

 

[Shimmie]

So a few examples override the rest of the Scripture? It's convenient that you ignore thousands of other women treated the EXACT opposite.

The price for raping a virgin was in shekels to HER FATHER if he refused to marry her. How in the world can money compensate the physical and emotional pain from sexual assault?

And of course the King regarded Queen Esther as property. Look what happened to Vashti. He could kill her at any time at his own will. That is why it was so dangerous for her to speak with the King unannounced.

SND, why does it appear that you have a pain in your hurt towards men? I ask only because it shows in so many of your posts, not just in this thread but in many others.

Whatever may have happened to you to cause this, I am deeply sorry. No woman speaks so harshly about men or sees women as being so victimized or unjustly treated in life, unless they too have been treated as such. I'm going by the many comments I've read of yours regarding such.

As for Esther, the king yielded to her from the very moment he saw her. And when she approached him....

When he saw Queen Esther standing in the court, he was pleased with her and held out to her the gold scepter that was in his hand. So Esther approached and touched the tip of the scepter.

Then the king said to her, "What is troubling you, Queen Esther? And what is your request? Even to half of the kingdom it shall be given to you."

"If it pleases the king," replied Esther, "let the king, together with Haman, come today to a banquet I have prepared for him."

"Bring Haman at once," the king said, "so that we may do what Esther asks." So the king and Haman went to the banquet Esther had prepared.

As they were drinking wine, the king again asked Esther, "Now what is your petition? It will be given you. And what is your request? Even up to half the kingdom, it will be granted."

Esther was his Wife...his Queen and he did as she asked.

As for 'other' women who were victimized in the Bible, it was never God's will for such. If nothing more, men reaped more judgment and punishment for what they did or did not do. The accounts are all there. The list of them continues without end.

You're seeing this as a one-sided attack against all women when this is simply not true.

 

[SND411]

SND, why does it appear that you have a pain in your hurt towards men? I ask only because it shows in so many of your posts, not just in this thread but in many others.

Whatever may have happened to you to cause this, I am deeply sorry. No woman speaks so harshly about men or sees women as being so victimized or unjustly treated in life, unless they too have been treated as such. I'm going by the many comments I've read of yours regarding such.

As for Esther, the king yielded to her from the very moment he saw her. And when she approached him....

When he saw Queen Esther standing in the court, he was pleased with her and held out to her the gold scepter that was in his hand. So Esther approached and touched the tip of the scepter.

Then the king said to her, "What is troubling you, Queen Esther? And what is your request? Even to half of the kingdom it shall be given to you."

"If it pleases the king," replied Esther, "let the king, together with Haman, come today to a banquet I have prepared for him."

"Bring Haman at once," the king said, "so that we may do what Esther asks." So the king and Haman went to the banquet Esther had prepared.

As they were drinking wine, the king again asked Esther, "Now what is your petition? It will be given you. And what is your request? Even up to half the kingdom, it will be granted."

Esther was his Wife...his Queen and he did as she asked.

As for 'other' women who were victimized in the Bible, it was never God's will for such. If nothing more, men reaped more judgment and punishment for what they did or did not do. The accounts are all there. The list of them continues without end.

You're seeing this as a one-sided attack against all women when this is simply not true.

Men through out history have caused women immense pain. Should I, as a woman, ignore this? You are acting like my disgust for the actions of men come out of thin air instead of being based on historical and contemporary FACT.

Perhaps God does not approve of this abuse women in the Bible suffered in the hands of men in the Bible, but He barely makes his disapproval explicit, particularly in the Old Testament. Let's be honest, at least in the Old Testament, men are valued way above women. Why do you think people always begged God for a son instead of a daughter?

 

[aribell]

@SND411 I think a part of the issue is the implicit accusation of unrighteousness in the word of God itself. Your underlying (and sometimes explicit) tone is that either the Lord or the biblical characters fundamentally failed to speak about something which they ought to have. Jesus Himself is the Word of God. The same Man who pardoned the adulteress is Himself the fulfillment and expression of all of Scripture. They cannot be separated. So, this is a bit like doing a simple addition and putting in 3+3 and getting "10" as the result. That is simply not the answer. Any thought, idea, or attitude toward Scripture that suggests implicitly or explicity that the Word of God is lacking in some respect, that the Lord erred, or even that the men whom God called righteous were less than that is the same as accepting "10" as an answer to 3+3. You automtically know that it's wrong.
　
If women were *simply* seen as property, then Dinah's brothers--the original sons who fathered the 12 tribes of Israel, would not have slaughtered all the men of an entire town in revenge. Their wrath had nothing to do with her being "property," and everything to do with her being their sister whom they felt had been violated.

Likewise, Tamar's brother Absalom killed Amnon for raping her. David was angry, and again, that anger had nothing to do with Tamar being a piece of property to him.

These are not isolated examples because they are reflections of the culture overall. The story of Dinah's rape shows how the original men that sired the 12 tribes felt about rape. David's anger shows how the king of Israel felt about it. Like the examples mentioned above naming Esther and Ruth, they cannot be dismissed because these stories did not take place in isolation. They reflect the actions and attitudes of Israel's leaders and those God dealt with directly.

If women were nothing in Scripture, then Proverbs 31 would make no sense. There's no indication whatsoever that that woman described is anything less than immensely valuable to her husband and to the community--and not as chattel. Such that he is known because of the degree to which she is respected. Likewise, it would not have been possible for Deborah to have been judge over Israel were women given no respect.

If you want an example of the Old Testament being "progressive" toward women, read about the judgment that women could inherit and own their own property. How long did that take to happen in the rest of the world?

And more than anything, many women who do show up in Scripture have genuine faith and love of God. The faith of women in Scripture alone should be an indication that at least they didn't feel that the Lord was unjust in His dealings toward them. This includes women you see in the Gospels, because at that time, all their faith was based on was the Old Testament.
I think that you're taking aspects of what you don't like and allowing that to cast a shadow over the entirety of the Old Testament. Ultimately, the point of Scripture is not to overturn and reconstruct the political order. This is why Paul told slaves to remain where they were and to obey even the unjust. If people look to Scripture for political/social liberation, they will be disappointed--which is why many of the Israelites missed the fact that Jesus is God. They thought Messiah was going to free them from the oppression of the Romans, and Jesus did not.

There's absolutely no question that rape is an evil thing from God's perspective and that no godly man would do such a thing. There's no way to credibly construe Scripture to suggest otherwise. Many biblical critics judge Scripture according to what they feel it ought to say and how they think God should have acted. But no one will ever gain any real understanding of the Lord in Scripture while attempting to stand in judgment over it. Asking the Lord to give understanding of His purpose in it, however, is a good place to start.

ETA: I don't think there's anything wrong with struggling with aspects of Scripture or with having questions. But I think the attitude we take when dealing with those struggles will either darken our understanding or enlighten it.

 

[SND411]

"If you want an example of the Old Testament being "progressive" toward women, read about the judgment that women could inherit and own their own property. How long did that take to happen in the rest of the world?:"

What do you mean by the "rest of the world?" Women have been owning their own property within indigenous communities in Africa, Native America, and Asia. And they weren't just allowed to own property when there wasn't any male heir either.

 

[SND411]

nicola.kirwan

Beautiful post though! You gave me a lot of food for thought. Thanks!

 

[Prudent1]

When a woman is raped, does she form an ungodly spiritual soul tie with her rapist? I want to know because the consequences of rape seem far more than physical/emotional (although it is incredibly damaging on these levels), there seem to be some affect on the spiritual level (women becoming promiscuous or withdrawn etc.). Do you have to pray to break a soul tie with a rapist/molester?

LoveisYou,
Yes, that is also why even though unwilling, victims of molestation often grow up and perpetrate the same horrific acts on others. For example, I know many (yes many) men who were abused as boys who now struggle with homosexuality. From their own mouths they say even though they found the acts against them to be vile, they now have desires to do the same thing to young boys. It is why young girls who are violated are many times more likely to become extremely promiscuous. Once again this is from the mouths of the victims, not hearsay. When a person is intimate with another, even unwillingly, spirits mingle. There is definitely a need for prayer to remove soul ties!

SND, why does it appear that you have a pain in your hurt towards men? I ask only because it shows in so many of your posts, not just in this thread but in many others.

Whatever may have happened to you to cause this, I am deeply sorry. No woman speaks so harshly about men or sees women as being so victimized or unjustly treated in life, unless they too have been treated as such. I'm going by the many comments I've read of yours regarding such.

As for Esther, the king yielded to her from the very moment he saw her. And when she approached him....

Esther was his Wife...his Queen and he did as she asked.

As for 'other' women who were victimized in the Bible, it was never God's will for such. If nothing more, men reaped more judgment and punishment for what they did or did not do. The accounts are all there. The list of them continues without end.

You're seeing this as a one-sided attack against all women when this is simply not true.

Shimmie,
Thanks for the truth shared in your above post.

@SND411 I think a part of the issue is the implicit accusation of unrighteousness in the word of God itself. Your underlying (and sometimes explicit) tone is that either the Lord or the biblical characters fundamentally failed to speak about something which they ought to have. Jesus Himself is the Word of God. The same Man who pardoned the adulteress is Himself the fulfillment and expression of all of Scripture. They cannot be separated. So, this is a bit like doing a simple addition and putting in 3+3 and getting "10" as the result. That is simply not the answer. Any thought, idea, or attitude toward Scripture that suggests implicitly or explicity that the Word of God is lacking in some respect, that the Lord erred, or even that the men whom God called righteous were less than that is the same as accepting "10" as an answer to 3+3. You automtically know that it's wrong.
　
If women were *simply* seen as property, then Dinah's brothers--the original sons who fathered the 12 tribes of Israel, would not have slaughtered all the men of an entire town in revenge. Their wrath had nothing to do with her being "property," and everything to do with her being their sister whom they felt had been violated.

Likewise, Tamar's brother Absalom killed Amnon for raping her. David was angry, and again, that anger had nothing to do with Tamar being a piece of property to him.

These are not isolated examples because they are reflections of the culture overall. The story of Dinah's rape shows how the original men that sired the 12 tribes felt about rape. David's anger shows how the king of Israel felt about it. Like the examples mentioned above naming Esther and Ruth, they cannot be dismissed because these stories did not take place in isolation. They reflect the actions and attitudes of Israel's leaders and those God dealt with directly.

If women were nothing in Scripture, then Proverbs 31 would make no sense. There's no indication whatsoever that that woman described is anything less than immensely valuable to her husband and to the community--and not as chattel. Such that he is known because of the degree to which she is respected. Likewise, it would not have been possible for Deborah to have been judge over Israel were women given no respect.

If you want an example of the Old Testament being "progressive" toward women, read about the judgment that women could inherit and own their own property. How long did that take to happen in the rest of the world?

And more than anything, many women who do show up in Scripture have genuine faith and love of God. The faith of women in Scripture alone should be an indication that at least they didn't feel that the Lord was unjust in His dealings toward them. This includes women you see in the Gospels, because at that time, all their faith was based on was the Old Testament.
I think that you're taking aspects of what you don't like and allowing that to cast a shadow over the entirety of the Old Testament. Ultimately, the point of Scripture is not to overturn and reconstruct the political order. This is why Paul told slaves to remain where they were and to obey even the unjust. If people look to Scripture for political/social liberation, they will be disappointed--which is why many of the Israelites missed the fact that Jesus is God. They thought Messiah was going to free them from the oppression of the Romans, and Jesus did not.

There's absolutely no question that rape is an evil thing from God's perspective and that no godly man would do such a thing. There's no way to credibly construe Scripture to suggest otherwise. Many biblical critics judge Scripture according to what they feel it ought to say and how they think God should have acted. But no one will ever gain any real understanding of the Lord in Scripture while attempting to stand in judgment over it. Asking the Lord to give understanding of His purpose in it, however, is a good place to start.

ETA: I don't think there's anything wrong with struggling with aspects of Scripture or with having questions. But I think the attitude we take when dealing with those struggles will either darken our understanding or enlighten it.

nicola.kirwan,
Thanks for what you have shared here as well. One thanks was not enough. Jesus said he and the Father were/ are one. You cannot love Jesus and decide GOD you don't care as much for. Rape is and always has been evil and against GOD's will. We are and always will be many members of one body. No part of the body is superior to the other and anyone who says otherwise is not basing that claim on anything biblical. Just b/c the bible does not specifically state this that and the other in regards to rape (and many other topics for that matter) ppl must be able to look at all of the examples of scripture to decipher the character of GOD. That character is consistent and does not waver from Genesis 'till Revelation. It would be inconsistent to condone the notion of women as property then turn around and contradict that by singling out a few special women here and there. God is love. It is not something he has.It is not a fuzzy feeling. He is LOVE. There is nothing loving about not showing someone of a different gender respect. Ppl have free will. The men who raped etc will pay for and be held accountable for their heinous actions. Just b/c chapter 3 verse 8 doesn't say and so and so caused a curse to be on the next 12 generations of his family and all male children died before the age of 12 doesn't mean that they raped, GOD winked, and they lived happily ever after. Who are we that GOD must explain and fill in every detail to? Even if he did, we can't handle the truth. It is a pitiful parent that goes over board attempting to explain everything to a child. We've all seen them. They look like fools and often get a serious side eye from those of us who know better. Who is leading who? The men were primarily addressed b/c they were put in charge of things. Not so they could lord it over the women but b/c in any organization where progress and productivity is taking place, there is decency and order. There is also usually a CEO who the buck stops with. That person is accountable even/especially when things are going badly. Anything with two heads is an anomaly. It is fine to ask God questions but the tone behind the questions should still be respectful.

 

[Prudent1]

Guitarhero,
RT, we all need to be aware of our environment at all times. One more reason why we literally need to be praying for others and ourselves at all times. Think Psa 91. As others have shared sometimes you can be minding your own business and evil comes to you but excessive drinking, getting high, wild parties, porn, and other things you feel the need to do in the dark or keep hidden from those you look up to, often place us in situations that increase the likelyhood of harm befalling us. God's desire is to see us safe and happy- whole if you will. If a person chooses to put themselves in potentially dangerous situations there should be no need to feign surprise and outrage even though the perpetrator is dead wrong. There is no need to start finger pointing at the victim either but I should not turn a blind eye to my curvaceous daughter leaving the house dressed like a mixture of say Rhianna and Bey then trip when she is thought to be a female of loose morals. If that's how you want to exercise free will do it but don't try to act like you don't know why the men are salivating and treating you like an inhumane piece of meat. What you are willing to show, you are willing to share. Even if you are a highly intelligent, feminized bronze, diva-fied whatever. If she leaves the house bra-less with a provocative saying displayed on her low cut breast revealing t-shirt then some troll asks her to perform that same act on him why be shocked and offended? If you leave the house with a shirt on that says you sell Avon then someone asks for lipstick samples do you go off on them? Poohbear said it best, abstain from all appearance of evil. It doesn't mean that nothing will ever happen to you. Life is not fair. Rain falls into everyone's life but you can decrease the chances of being involved in such events. In the meantime, God sees all and all will be held accountable for their actions whether you see them pay or not.

 

[lili411]

LoveisYou I think the fact that some rape survivors can become promiscuous or have other strange desires that can be connected to the rape has more to do with regaining control. I think when someone is raped, they feel helpless/powerless and nobody wants to feel that way. I think having "consensual" sex afterwards gives back a sense of power and control. In any case, I don't believe in "spiritual soul ties" with any other human being. Evil is evil and we just need to pray not to be tempted.