I really feel as though you can negate your salvation. YOU can cause it to be untrue. It is not something that God does to us, but what we do to ourselves.
Can You Lose Your Salvation?
- Thread starter cocoberry10
- Start date
I really feel as though you can negate your salvation. YOU can cause it to be untrue. It is not something that God does to us, but what we do to ourselves.
loolalooh
Well-Known Member
No. In the example of Matthews 12, "blasphemy the HS" appears to be knowingly attributing the works of the Spirit to the enemy. It is this sin that is unforgiveable, according to Jesus...
"14 Then the Pharisees went out and plotted against Him, how they might destroy Him.
A House Divided Cannot Stand
22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and[e] mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”
24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub,[f] the ruler of the demons.”
25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.
The Unpardonable Sin
31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. "
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loolalooh
Well-Known Member
I had to think about this ...
I looked at two translations of Hebrews 6:
in NKJV - "5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. "
in NLT - "5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame."
I'm inclined to believe that "falling/turning away" is an actual "rejection/crucifying of Jesus". Continual sinning can lead to "falling away" but one hasn't fallen away until one rejects Jesus. For example, a child can continue disobeying the parent, but not "fall away" until the moment he/she rejects the parent. How does one "reject" a parent? Denounce any ties to them (e.g., divorce them in court). I think "falling/turning away" is essentially cutting ties to God (e.g., converting from Christianity to atheism).
Hebrews 6:9 implies that one who is truly saved couldn't possibly do this. It leads me to think that people who do convert were probably not really saved in the first place. However, I'm not the one to make that call; it's just a thought.
I'm unable to answer the other questions at the moment.
LovingLady
Well-Known Member
I think that blasphemy against the spirit is something that Christians can not be forgiven for, but if your are a "Christian" then it would be forgiven. At the spiritual level and maturity that we are at, where we are "eating of the meat", we know the seriousness of what is going on around us and how important it is to have a strong relationship in Christ. When you have people that are, at best, "drinking of the milk" this means that they would not be at the level where they would know the information that we know. If they are still babies or even counterfeit Christians how can you blame them, they don't know better.
Think about the relationship between God and satan. Correct me if I am wrong but at one point they were very close. Once satan tried to over throw God, blasphemy, he was thrown out of heaven. Satan and the demons were in a position where they should have known better. This is going back to what I underlined above. God can not forgive them because He wants people around (in His kingdom/family/team) that are going to be His tried and true followers. A house divided against itself can not stand.
Going off of this I think it is possible for a Christian to lose their salvation if they commit blasphemy. It is a very slim chance of this happening and I can't imagine why any Christian would do this but it is possible. If 1/3 of heaven turned their back on God, sinfully humans can.
I have a question for you ladies, below is the setting for the question.
Location: battle field
North: Jesus and Christians (Group 1)
South: satan and followers (Group 2)
East: "Christians" (Group 3)
West: Everyone else (Group 4)
*Group 3 and 4 are the spectators cheering for their team.
If you go from group 3 to 4 to 2, can you still get into group 1?
Poohbear
Fearfully Wonderfully Made
Not trying to be rude but this sentence makes no sense whatsoever.
erplexed
SweetTea
New Member
These are all great points, Poohbear. I wonder about these things a lot myself. I've always been a believer, but there have been times when my relationship with God was lukewarm at best. Not for any particular reason...it's just something that happens. But I've come to the conclusion that if you have salvation, it can't be taken away, but you may give it back. I think giving it back would mean purposely sinning because "God will forgive you" or deciding you don't believe in God anymore. Everyone sins. To sin is to be human. If we didn't sin, or had the ability not to sin, Jesus would not have had to pay for our sins. At the end of the day, we are only human. Some people struggle with certain things more than others. God knows our struggles and I don't believe He would punish us for them, only ask that we seek His help and forgiveness. If the only way to Heaven was for us to live a perfectly sin-free life, no one would be going.
erplexed
loolalooh
Well-Known Member
This is a really good question, and I hope others chime in.
My understanding is that perpetually doing a particular sin is a form of spiritual bondage. That's a whole other topic that I want to read about eventually; I don't know too much about it except what I've heard from others. I believe that when in spiritual bondage, one may be remorseful at first but in time the sin is so much a "habit" that it becomes natural. Superficial believers can come under this, particularly if they don't know about renewing their mind, killing the flesh, and absorbing the Word constantly.
"Our Father, give us this day our daily bread" ...
I don't think that "mature" believers can come under sinful spiritual bondage.
-------
I do believe "God forgives sin over and over again". It reminds me of this verse:
Matthew 18
21 Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”
22 “No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven!" (NLT)
However, He does not intend for us to use salvation as an excuse to live in sin.
loolalooh
Well-Known Member
Hmm. I have to think more on this one.
LovingLady
Well-Known Member
Not trying to be rude but this sentence makes no sense whatsoever.
Are you talking about the fact that I quoted the word Christian? If that is the case, the reason why I quoted it is because I was referring to people who call themselves Christians but their actions are not aligned with the Word of God.
Sharpened
A fleck on His Sword
Poohbear
Fearfully Wonderfully Made
Thank you for clarifying. Can you (or anyone else in this forum) explain this... I have seen and heard this bolded statement over and over about "people who call themselves Christians but their actions are not aligned with the Word of God"...
What IS being aligned with the Word of God if every Christian, superficial or true, commits sins? Sin is an action not aligned with the Word of God. How do you or any other Christian classify someone's actions as not being aligned with the Word of God? Is it certain actions that are your personal pet peeves?
This is something I've noticed with my dad. He's quick to say a person isn't a Christian if they are not tithing, living together unmarried, a homosexual, or being a woman preacher... but he fails to look at himself when he gossips, talks bad about others, lusts, and is quick-tempered.
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Poohbear
Fearfully Wonderfully Made
I think one can go from group 2 to group 1. Many people do that everyday.
Don't we go back and forth from group 1 to group 2 when we commit sins???
Sharpened
A fleck on His Sword
I do not use the phrase because people do not understand what, or rather Who the Word of God is. Jesus is the Word of God, not the Bible. We are to do as He did and what He said. He ended the contract of the salvation through actions by nailing Himself on the cross. It is really that simple! The adversary and his supporters own this world and want us to desire what we experience with our senses over hating this existence in favor of being purified for the next.
Pray for Him. Pray constantly for a way out with all humility and sincere tears; break your own heart if you have to.
Poohbear
Fearfully Wonderfully Made
Thanks for your response. I agree that the Word of God is Jesus, but wasn't Jesus' actions sinless? If everyone sins, wouldn't that mean no one's actions are aligned with Jesus?
Another question... do you believe the Bible is the word of God? If not, how do you see the Bible? I see the Bible as a book of general life guidance and a book of history to show us how the Christian religion came about.
Sharpened
A fleck on His Sword
Ah, that is when grace comes in--time to get ourselves pure and strengthen our connection to the Father through the Holy Spirit.
God Himself is the Word of God; Jesus is the fleshly version. He had His actions recorded for our benefit, but not everything because we would never have time to ponder it all. The Bible is a tool, an instrument for communication from the Father, and a stepping stone to Him. Even Jesus gave all credit to Our Father, not the Torah, for His knowledge and mission.
Maybe my belief is not popular, but for ME the Bible is not just a book of general life guidance and a book of history to show us how the Christian religion came about. The Bible is the revelation of the plan of God for us.
Yes, the Christ, God revealed in flesh, is the Word of God and the Bible is about the Word of God, from the beginning to the end :
Gen. 1.3 And God said…
Gen. 3.15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Col. 2:15)
Deut. 6.4... 6.6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 6.7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children…
Dan. 2.44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. (Lu. 1:33)
Lu. 24.25 … 24.27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
2Pet. 1.16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty… 1.19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 1.20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 1.21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Rev. 1.1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him… and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 1.2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev. 22.18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 22.19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 22.20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 22.21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
When a president signs a paper, this paper is not just a written sheet of paper : it is the word of Mr. the President, and even more : the word of a country, believing in it or not, agreeing with it or not.
How could we know what we know?…..
So the Scriptures, the Bible, give us the what (we need to know) about the who (is God) : Christ, the Word of God.
Yes, the Christ, God revealed in flesh, is the Word of God and the Bible is about the Word of God, from the beginning to the end :
Gen. 1.3 And God said…
Gen. 3.15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Col. 2:15)
Deut. 6.4... 6.6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 6.7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children…
Dan. 2.44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. (Lu. 1:33)
Lu. 24.25 … 24.27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
2Pet. 1.16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty… 1.19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 1.20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 1.21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Rev. 1.1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him… and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 1.2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev. 22.18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 22.19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 22.20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 22.21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
When a president signs a paper, this paper is not just a written sheet of paper : it is the word of Mr. the President, and even more : the word of a country, believing in it or not, agreeing with it or not.
How could we know what we know?…..
So the Scriptures, the Bible, give us the what (we need to know) about the who (is God) : Christ, the Word of God.
Poohbear
Fearfully Wonderfully Made
@Crown, if the Bible is more than just a book of guidance and history, then why do you and every other Christian still sin? The Bible clearly speaks against sin. Why don't we keep ALL of His commandments? And please do not say "It's because of our sinful fleshly nature". I thought we were suppose to be new creatures in Christ, and take off the old....
It is in process : the work of God.
I can look at my past, and I know there is progress and I am so thankful because I could not do this by myself, but the Spirit of Christ...
Praise the Lord!
Please, watch this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncEhCvrVgQ
Poohbear
Fearfully Wonderfully Made
Thanks Crown.
That youtube video you posted, I've seen and listened to before, along with a few more messages Paul Washer has delivered. I actually like his messages.
I guess I just hate to hear fellow Christians say stuff like "they ain't livin' right" or "they going to hell for what they did" or "they aren't true Christians because of [their particular sin]". They have no room to talk because they in the same boat. They are not sinless themselves.
We are living in a time of confusion, seduction and disappointment.
The truth is in the Bible.
Take what is good, scriptural and can feed you, and leave the not so good to its author.
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