Help Answering Poohbear's Question about Sin and Grace

[FrazzledFraggle]

Poohbear posted this question in a thread in Off Topic.

I'm wondering if you could possibly clarify something with me about being "saved by grace" and "being good"... this is where my confusion lies, please try to hear me out without coming to any premature conclusions...

I see where you have mentioned that we can never be good enough to get to heaven. I've also heard preachers say, "goodness does not get you into heaven, but salvation in Jesus gets you into heaven." I'm just wondering where are you and other ministers getting this from? There are scriptures after scriptures in the bible that tell us that we must be holy and to be cleaned of all unrighteousness and to avoid so many different sins.

If being good or not sinning doesn't help in saving us from the lake of fire, and if we can never be good enough for heaven, then wouldn't everyone be going to heaven? Really, think about it. You are saying that even a bad Christian can be saved by God's grace. What about an unbelieving Christian? Unbelief is a sin. Can't they have the same grace of God as believing Christians?

To me, being saved by God's grace does not mean you can just live any kind of way and as long as you believe, you're good. That's makes it seem like everyone is going to heaven no matter what. Can you see where I'm coming from in that respect?

I just want to hear it from you. No need to post any scriptures about Jesus dying on the cross for our sins and being that perfect sacrifice, he took the punishment for our sin, and that the wages of sin is death and that all have sin and fall short of His glory...I know about all that. I just wonder why sin (or some sins for that matter) are okay in your eyes and the eyes of some other Christians who believe they are saved by God's grace...

Hope that makes sense.

This was Poohbear's question. I never told Poohbear that sin was okay but I think the fact that I said we are saved by grace and not by works translated to her that I thought we had a license to sin. I know there is already a thread on "license to sin" but her question is a bit different than what is presented on that thread (IMO) so I'm posting it as a separate thread. I am having a difficult time explaining salvation, grace and sin....and wanted to know if you all would help.

In that thread, someone (I think it was Poohbear but I'm not sure) had been told by a Christian that Christians do not sin anymore. I disagree with that belief. I believe Christians do sin. I think she wants to know how Christians get to heaven if we still sin and the Bible commands us to be holy and keep God's commandments and if Christians still sin how that makes us any better than "sinners". There is a lot to cover and I am prayerful that you will be able to assist her.

If I am relaying any of this incorrectly, perhaps she can help me clarify.

I believe Poohbear also stated that she was a bit confused by Romans 6 and Romans 7 because they seemed to contradict one another.

Romans 6-7
New King James Version (NKJV)
Dead to Sin, Alive to God

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Freed from the Law

7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Sin’s Advantage in the Law

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Poohbear]

Thanks letskeepntouch. I guess I shouldn't have said, "I just wonder why sin (or some sins for that matter) are okay in your eyes..." I have a hard time expressing the right thing to say sometimes. I didn't mean your eyes personally. I guess I meant based on what you said it makes it seem like it's okay for Christians to sin. I don't know how to explain it but it certainly wasn't a personal attack on you. Hope that makes sense.

It's just that when I hear Christians preach against sin, but then in the next sentence say "we don't have to be good to get to heaven" or that "we are sinners saved by grace" it makes me think "I guess everyone is going to heaven" or that "what's the use of trying to be good (not sin) even though I desire not to do wrong?"

And what's interesting is that I actually found Christians who do believe everyone is going to heaven. They are called Universalist. They even have scriptures from the bible to support their views.

 

[FrazzledFraggle]

Thanks letskeepntouch. I guess I shouldn't have said, "I just wonder why sin (or some sins for that matter) are okay in your eyes..." I have a hard time expressing the right thing to say sometimes. I didn't mean your eyes personally. I guess I meant based on what you said it makes it seem like it's okay for Christians to sin. I don't know how to explain it but it certainly wasn't a personal attack on you. Hope that makes sense.

It's just that when I hear Christians preach against sin, but then in the next sentence say "we don't have to be good to get to heaven" or that "we are sinners saved by grace" it makes me think "I guess everyone is going to heaven" or that "what's the use of trying to be good (not sin) even though I desire not to do wrong?"

And what's interesting is that I actually found Christians who do believe everyone is going to heaven. They are called Universalist. They even have scriptures from the bible to support their views.

I didn't take it that way at all! I just didn't want anyone reading it to take it that way. Things are so easily misconstrued on off topic! I am working on a response to your question but I wanted others in this forum to have the opportunity to respond as well!

 

[Poohbear]

I believe Poohbear also stated that she was a bit confused by Romans 6 and Romans 7 because they seemed to contradict one another.

I'm not really confused by Romans 6 and Romans 7. It's just that when the sinning Christian argument comes up, people use Romans 7 as an excuse to commit sin, and they use this scripture as a reason for Christians to keep on sinning. People make Romans 7 contradict Romans 6. In Romans 6, God clearly tells us that we should not use His grace to just continually sin.

 

[LucieLoo12]

Ok, Well I am one to believe that sin is by choice and it's not something we have to do...but I will be back in a few minutes with my answer to this

 

[FrazzledFraggle]

I would really like Shimmie to respond to this question as well.

 

[LucieLoo12]

First let's look at grace, what the BIBLE says grace is.....

Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Grace comes to teach us to refrain from ungodliness, not to indulge in it more. The scripture above says that it has appeared on to all of us that we may live right in THIS life. That's why we are saved by grace because it changes who we are, so that we would not live the same old way. It does not make us indulge into sin.

Thats why Roman 6 said Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? So it's saying shall we continue to do wrong because we know that God will give us another chance? No. Why? Because God gives grace and mercy so we may learn what is the right thing to do and turn from our evil ways.


In that very same chapter, few verses down it says this:

Romans 6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


So through grace appearing unto us, we are made new. The power of sin has been destroyed, not enhanced...

2 Cor 6:1

We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Vain means to be profitless or of no use.So if Paul is saying to not take it in vain, that means grace profits us something. Going back to the first scripture, GRACE TEACHES.. So Paul is saying to learn from grace! Grow from grace! Don't stay the same way when God is giving you grace to change.
Grace is the oppurtunity to get things right, not an oppurtunity to do more wrong.


Now on Romans 7 people always take this is out of context because they are not studying the bible, but just reading it..They just stop where they want to and do not continue reading. When Paul wrote the Epistle Romans, he did not write out Romans Ch. 7 verse 1. But the bible scholars broke down the bible into chapters and verses so that we may understand and follow it easier. So when Paul wrote it, it was written out in a letter form. So just because a chapter ends at verse 25, that does not mean the Paul's thought ended there.

So lets take a look at the end of Romans 7:

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.



Now let's CONTINUE the thought in Chapter 8


Now Chapter 8 begins with therefore, so it is a CONTINUATION of chapter 7.....People love to stop here, but Paul is not finished with his thought.....


Romans 8:1

1.There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit

So back in Romans 7:22-24 Paul was feeling condemned because he seen things working in his members. But He said that the INNER man delighted after God. But his flesh was saying something different. So he comes to encourage us that the believer should not be discouraged because they may "feel" a certain way but must remember if we live our lives according to the spirit of God we are not condemned.

So Paul was saying that YES he felt a battle in his flesh sometimes to do things that was contrary to God, but that's why he said with his MIND he serves God. His flesh had no dominion over what he did. But he walked in the spirit. He no longer walked after fleshly desires but he was totally ruled by the spirit of God. So that's why he said there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus. People like to quote this scripture but they always stop there, but the scripture says, there is no condemation to them in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but the spirit. You must walk in the Spirit of God to be not be condemned.

 

[Poohbear]

LucieLoo12 - Thank you so much for your explanation of Romans 7 and 8! I just wish more Christians could realize that it doesn't stop at Romans 7...you got to read on to Romans 8. Just because Paul says what he says in Romans 7 doesn't mean Christians will/should forever continue in sin. It just makes it like everyone is going to heaven and that God's grace is for everyone who claims to be saved when that's not the case.

 

[LucieLoo12]

@LucieLoo12 - Thank you so much for your explanation of Romans 7 and 8! I just wish more Christians could realize that it doesn't stop at Romans 7...you got to read on to Romans 8. Just because Paul says what he says in Romans 7 doesn't mean Christians will/should forever continue in sin. It just makes it like everyone is going to heaven and that God's grace is for everyone who claims to be saved when that's not the case.

. Glory to God!



People must STUDY the bible and not just read it. Paul was only describing a portion of his walk, that was not the conclusion of it.

I do believe there is a certain time in a believer's walk there may be a struggle with sin, especially during the beginning stages. But I do not believe a mature believer should live in a CONTINOUS life of sin and just blame it on grace. God is a God of change and redemption.God can deliever from sin. That was the whole point of Jesus coming, so that we may be free from sin. Not just the consquence of it, but the POWER it has over our lives. We are to be conformed to the image of Christ. This is something that we have to grow into..but it can be done.

But the bible says "So a man thinketh, so he is". If a person believes that can't be free from it, they won't be. But if you get into your mind and BELIEVE that you do not have to be bound by sin, it will change your whole way of thinking. Because believing will produce actions....but that's another thread .......

 

[FrazzledFraggle]

First let's look at grace, what the BIBLE says grace is.....

Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Grace comes to teach us to refrain from ungodliness, not to indulge in it more. The scripture above says that it has appeared on to all of us that we may live right in THIS life. That's why we are saved by grace because it changes who we are, so that we would not live the same old way. It does not make us indulge into sin.

Thats why Roman 6 said Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? So it's saying shall we continue to do wrong because we know that God will give us another chance? No. Why? Because God gives grace and mercy so we may learn what is the right thing to do and turn from our evil ways.


In that very same chapter, few verses down it says this:

Romans 6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


So through grace appearing unto us, we are made new. The power of sin has been destroyed, not enhanced...

2 Cor 6:1

We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Vain means to be profitless or of no use.So if Paul is saying to not take it in vain, that means grace profits us something. Going back to the first scripture, GRACE TEACHES.. So Paul is saying to learn from grace! Grow from grace! Don't stay the same way when God is giving you grace to change.
Grace is the oppurtunity to get things right, not an oppurtunity to do more wrong.


Now on Romans 7 people always take this is out of context because they are not studying the bible, but just reading it..They just stop where they want to and do not continue reading. When Paul wrote the Epistle Romans, he did not write out Romans Ch. 7 verse 1. But the bible scholars broke down the bible into chapters and verses so that we may understand and follow it easier. So when Paul wrote it, it was written out in a letter form. So just because a chapter ends at verse 25, that does not mean the Paul's thought ended there.

So lets take a look at the end of Romans 7:

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.



Now let's CONTINUE the thought in Chapter 8


Now Chapter 8 begins with therefore, so it is a CONTINUATION of chapter 7.....People love to stop here, but Paul is not finished with his thought.....


Romans 8:1

1.There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit

So back in Romans 7:22-24 Paul was feeling condemned because he seen things working in his members. But He said that the INNER man delighted after God. But his flesh was saying something different. So he comes to encourage us that the believer should not be discouraged because they may "feel" a certain way but must remember if we live our lives according to the spirit of God we are not condemned.

So Paul was saying that YES he felt a battle in his flesh sometimes to do things that was contrary to God, but that's why he said with his MIND he serves God. His flesh had no dominion over what he did. But he walked in the spirit. He no longer walked after fleshly desires but he was totally ruled by the spirit of God. So that's why he said there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus. People like to quote this scripture but they always stop there, but the scripture says, there is no condemation to them in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but the spirit. You must walk in the Spirit of God to be not be condemned.

Wonderful explanation! I am at work today and I didn't want to delay getting her a response. I'm trying to multitask.

Did that clear up confusion for you Poohbear?

 

[Poohbear]

Wonderful explanation! I am at work today and I didn't want to delay getting her a response. I'm trying to multitask.

Did that clear up confusion for you Poohbear?

Yes it does clear up the confusion, but what she said is different than what you said in the other thread about goodness. You were saying that we can't be good enough to get to heaven and that Christians still sin and that we are saved by grace....

 

[FrazzledFraggle]

Yes it does clear up the confusion, but what she said is different than what you said in the other thread about goodness. You were saying that we can't be good enough to get to heaven and that Christians still sin and that we are saved by grace....

You cannot be good enough to get to heaven on your own. That's why you need a savior. Christians do still fall short and sin...but we are not to continue in that sin. I don't really see it as different but perhaps I'm explaining it incorrectly.

 

[Poohbear]

You cannot be good enough to get to heaven on your own. That's why you need a savior. Christians do still fall short and sin...but we are not to continue in that sin. I don't really see it as different but perhaps I'm explaining it incorrectly.

Okay, just reread what I just bolded from your quote. This is what I'm talking about that most Christians say. "Christians do still fall short and sin" is a contradiction to "but we are not to continue in that sin." The first part of the sentence makes it like it's okay for Christians to sin while the last part is saying it is not okay for Christians to sin. It can't be both.

Of course we can't be good enough on our own. I'm saying can't we be good enough with Jesus? Christians say they have Jesus, then why aren't they being good (not sinning) if they truly truly believe in Him and have Him in their heart and minds?

That is what the lady was pointing out to me who said she no longer sins since being saved. She's like how can you believe in Jesus who came to take us away FROM our sins, but continue to live in sin? That doesn't show faith if you sin and still claim to believe Jesus died to take you away from your sins.

 

[LucieLoo12]

I know I will be stoned for this......but I do believe a Christian can come to a point where they do not sin and it's a requirement we will all have to come to . In my previous post I said that a continous sin is not what a mature believer should have in their in life...

But let me bring scripture into this..


1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


So Paul is saying that we should not sin. But this is the part I love ...Paul says IF we sin. He did not say when but he said IF we did. So it may happen but it does not have to happen!

 

[FrazzledFraggle]

I know I will be stoned for this......but I do believe a Christian can come to a point where they do not sin and it's a requirement we will all have to come to . In my previous post I said that a continous sin is not what a mature believer should have in their in life...

But let me bring scripture into this..


1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


So Paul is saying that we should not sin. But this is the part I love ...Paul says IF we sin. He did not say when but he said IF we did. So it may happen but it does not have to happen!

Okay, just reread what I just bolded from your quote. This is what I'm talking about that most Christians say. "Christians do still fall short and sin" is a contradiction to "but we are not to continue in that sin." The first part of the sentence makes it like it's okay for Christians to sin while the last part is saying it is not okay for Christians to sin. It can't be both.

Of course we can't be good enough on our own. I'm saying can't we be good enough with Jesus? Christians say they have Jesus, then why aren't they being good (not sinning) if they truly truly believe in Him and have Him in their heart and minds?

That is what the lady was pointing out to me who said she no longer sins since being saved. She's like how can you believe in Jesus who came to take us away FROM our sins, but continue to live in sin? That doesn't show faith if you sin and still claim to believe Jesus died to take you away from your sins.

This is what confuses me then. No stones...I'm using this site because I don't have time at work to type it all out!

http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-daily.html

While there is not a Bible verse that specifically states we commit a sinful act each day, we do have verses that remind us that we have inherited the capacity to sin at any moment. "Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12). "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5). In addition, we have commands that we know we never keep, much less on a daily basis. For instance, who can claim to love God with all his heart, mind and soul every moment of every day? No one. Yet, that is the greatest commandment (Matthew 22:36-38). Failing to love God completely at all times is a daily sin for all Christians.

We also have a verse that warns us of the deceitfulness of our old sinful nature, which in a sense is warning us of the potential, if not the likelihood, of daily sin. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9). Even the apostle Paul was frustrated with his own battle against indwelling sin. "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (Romans 7:22-23). This capacity to sin led him to cry in desperation, “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?” (Romans 7:24).

Solomon knew full well that he and all men not only have the potential for sin, but that we all exercise that capacity routinely. As he stated in his prayer at the dedication of the temple, "If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not)" (1 Kings 8:46). And Solomon spoke of it again in the book of Ecclesiastes: "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not" (Ecclesiastes 7:20). Again, while these verses do not unequivocally indicate daily sin, they certainly warn us against the pride of saying at any moment that we have no sin.

The good news is that we will not have to strive forever against daily sin. One day we will be in heaven with our Savior and will be freed from the presence and power of sin, just as we have already been freed from its penalty.

IMO, in this lifetime, we will never be perfectly victorious over sin, but that should still be our goal. With God’s help, and by following the principles of His Word, we can progressively overcome sin and become more and more like Christ.

Sometimes victory over sin comes quickly. Other times, victory comes more slowly. God has promised that as we make use of His resources (Holy Spirit, Word of God, Prayer, Fellowship with other believers) He will progressively bring about change in our lives. We can persevere in our efforts to overcome sin because we know that He is faithful to His promises.

 

[Poohbear]

letskeepntouch - I know gotquestions.org is commonly used for questions people have about the bible and religion (I have gone there myself to see what answers they have), but sometimes you got to really read what they say to see if it really makes sense with what the bible says.

Let's take this particular commentary that you posted above about sin daily... I have read it so many times over the years, and I'm sorry but everytime I read it, it makes me think they are saying it's okay for a Christian to sin. The commentary does not encourage Christians to stop sinning whatsoever, when the bible speaks against sin so much. It's like once you ask the question "Do we sin daily?" and then gotquestions.org says "Yes," you feel relieved if you are actually sinning daily. You feel like you're still safe all because gotquestions.org says "Yes you sin daily as a Christian."

 

[Poohbear]

IMO, in this lifetime, we will never be perfectly victorious over sin, but that should still be our goal. With God’s help, and by following the principles of His Word, we can progressively overcome sin and become more and more like Christ.

Sometimes victory over sin comes quickly. Other times, victory comes more slowly. God has promised that as we make use of His resources (Holy Spirit, Word of God, Prayer, Fellowship with other believers) He will progressively bring about change in our lives. We can persevere in our efforts to overcome sin because we know that He is faithful to His promises.

But if we will never have victory over sin as a Christian, that means everyone is going to Heaven since no one has victory over sin. If you feel that you will never have victory over sin, how can you make it your goal? These are the points I'm trying to make in other posts I have made. The bible says with Jesus, we do have victory over sin and that we are dead to sin...that's if you truly truly have Jesus I suppose.

I know you mean well in your responses, it's just something to think about.

 

[FrazzledFraggle]

letskeepntouch - I know gotquestions.org is commonly used for questions people have about the bible and religion (I have gone there myself to see what answers they have), but sometimes you got to really read what they say to see if it really makes sense with what the bible says.

Let's take this particular commentary that you posted above about sin daily... I have read it so many times over the years, and I'm sorry but everytime I read it, it makes me think they are saying it's okay for a Christian to sin. The commentary does not encourage Christians to stop sinning whatsoever, when the bible speaks against sin so much. It's like once you ask the question "Do we sin daily?" and then gotquestions.org says "Yes," you feel relieved if you are actually sinning daily. You feel like you're still safe all because gotquestions.org says "Yes you sin daily as a Christian."

I never said I sin daily. I also never said I feel safe because gotquestions says it's okay to sin daily. However, I don't agree with your interpretation of their statement either. I don't think what they are saying is that it's okay to sin.

 

[FrazzledFraggle]

I'm done posting here for the time being. I have to work. I'll be back though.

 

[LucieLoo12]

My responses are in red/purple throughout your statement....

This is what confuses me then. No stones...I'm using this site because I don't have time at work to type it all out!

http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-daily.html

While there is not a Bible verse that specifically states we commit a sinful act each day, we do have verses that remind us that we have inherited the capacity to sin at any moment. "Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12). "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5). Yes we are born into sin, that's why Jesus commanded that we be born again in John 3. I am not debating the fact that we come from a sinful nature, my point is when the process of salvation comes,it comes to free us from sin, changing our entire nature that we no longer desire to sin.

2nd Cor 5:
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

It's amazing that he uses the word creation, he did not say we are a new person, but he said a new CREATION, meaning we are a completely new BEING...then he continue to say after we have entered into Christ how everything about us is made new and everything about us is of God...

In addition, we have commands that we know we never keep, much less on a daily basis. For instance, who can claim to love God with all his heart, mind and soul every moment of every day? No one. Yet, that is the greatest commandment (Matthew 22:36-38). Failing to love God completely at all times is a daily sin for all Christians. Ok, I am not really getting this point here. Why can't we love God all day everyday? The bible says if we keep his commandments, we do love Him. So is this saying I can not keep the commandments of God all day? If that is what this is saying, then this a merely a man's opinion and not biblical, because God would not command me to do something He would not equip me for.

We also have a verse that warns us of the deceitfulness of our old sinful nature, which in a sense is warning us of the potential, if not the likelihood, of daily sin. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9). But God promised us through the new convenant that he would give us a new heart. Our old heart is wicked, but that's why we need a new heart from God. And God promises us that with this new heart, and spirit, we would be able to fulfill the commandments of God.

Ezekiel 36:

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



Even the apostle Paul was frustrated with his own battle against indwelling sin. "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (Romans 7:22-23). This capacity to sin led him to cry in desperation, “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?” (Romans 7:24). I already explained this in my previous posts above..

Solomon knew full well that he and all men not only have the potential for sin, but that we all exercise that capacity routinely. As he stated in his prayer at the dedication of the temple, "If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not)" (1 Kings 8:46). And Solomon spoke of it again in the book of Ecclesiastes: "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not" (Ecclesiastes 7:20). Again, while these verses do not unequivocally indicate daily sin, they certainly warn us against the pride of saying at any moment that we have no sin. But solomon was speaking of the men in his time. He was not speaking for all the men that will ever exist on earth. The bible actually shows us men who was perfect and righteous with God..BEFORE Christ even came. So how much more should this be so after Christ came.

Examples:

Genesis 6:9
Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

1 Kings 15:14
But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.

Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil

There are more examples, but I am kinda tired of posting

The good news is that we will not have to strive forever against daily sin. One day we will be in heaven with our Savior and will be freed from the presence and power of sin, just as we have already been freed from its penalty.

My whole point of this is to say that being a Christian is not something we should see as, "God is holding me back from doing all things I wanna do". But it's "God has changed my desires and heart, that I NO LONGER want to do these things anymore. I desire those things that are righteous"... Salvation is a supernatural transformation on the heart and soul of a man. So when we have sin in our lives, it just means we need more cleaning and purging in our lives. A Christian should NEVER be satisfied with sin. NEVER. Why? because God hates sin, and we can't love God and loves what He hates. He said "Be ye holy, for I am holy. BE is a commandment, not an option

 

[Poohbear]

I never said I sin daily. I also never said I feel safe because gotquestions says it's okay to sin daily. However, I don't agree with your interpretation of their statement either. I don't think what they are saying is that it's okay to sin.

letskeepntouch

I didn't say that you said you sin daily. And I also didn't say that you said you feel safe from what gotquestions.org says. When I used the word "you" in my post, I was talking in general, not you personally.

When I said this, "It's like once you ask the question "Do we sin daily?" and then gotquestions.org says "Yes," you feel relieved if you are actually sinning daily. " I was NOT talking about you personally.

Maybe I should have used third person when I wrote this. This is what I should have said:

"It's like once someone asks the question "Do we sin daily?" and then gotquestions.org says "Yes," that someone feels relieved if that someone is actually sinning daily."

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[FrazzledFraggle]

My responses are in red/purple throughout your statement....





My whole point of this is to say that being a Christian is not something we should see as, "God is holding me back from doing all things I wanna do". But it's "God has changed my desires and heart, that I NO LONGER want to do these things anymore. I desire those things that are righteous"... Salvation is a supernatural transformation on the heart and soul of a man. So when we have sin in our lives, it just means we need more cleaning and purging in our lives. A Christian should NEVER be satisfied with sin. NEVER. Why? because God hates sin, and we can't love God and loves what He hates. He said "Be ye holy, for I am holy. BE is a commandment, not an option

I completely agree and feel the same way! I am also tired of posting but also I have to work and as my fingers are tired, I'll have to come back later. I just wanted to acknowledge your post.

 

[Shimmie]

I would really like Shimmie to respond to this question as well.

I think you and LucieLoo12 have done a great job with this.

Jesus dying upon the Cross gave us 'access' to forgiveness by being able to go to God the Father for forgiveness.

As long as we are in this human body, we are going to sin. The difference is in choosing NOT to sin.

If I see a basket of free samples on the counter and it says: Take One, I'm not sinning by taking one. But there are some people who keep taking handfulls of free samples, not caring how it affects others or the person who is providing the free samples. They keep coming back, taking more than one, Deliberately IGNORING the sign that says, 'Take One'.

Now if the person repents, no longer takes more than one, he has chosen to obey the 'rules'. He / She is forgiven. However, if the one who continues to take more than one, has an unrepentant heart, they do not care about the rules nor others affected by their behaviour. After a while the Manager says, they are no longer allowed to return to the sample displays, simply because they have broken the rules.

The Bible never said that we would never sin. But it does say, that we should not continue in our sin. Accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, means we are making a committment to no longer choose a sinful life. We are making a committment to turn away from our sins and to live giving honour to God. We will always be tempted, however we choose not to yield unto temptation. This is our acceptance of Jesus Christ who knew no sin and we are to be like Him. Jesus was not a liar, a thief, a backbiter, cheater, He did not commit sexual sin; yet as humans, we have all fallen into one or more of these sins, even after accepting Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.

This is God's Word says...

I John 2:1-6

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

:Rose: :Rose: :Rose:

God still expects us to live accordingly... not sin. We cannot take the Cross for granted. Jesus, Himself said that we must take up our Cross and carry it. We have to forsake our sins, and bear the weight of moving forward. We have to bear up against our flesh and commit to being faithful in Christ Jesus.

Over and Over and Over Jesus said: Go and sin no more...

 

[FrazzledFraggle]

I think you and LucieLoo12 have done a great job with this.

Jesus dying upon the Cross gave us 'access' to forgiveness by being able to go to God the Father for forgiveness.

As long as we are in this human body, we are going to sin. The difference is in choosing NOT to sin.

If I see a basket of free samples on the counter and it says: Take One, I'm not sinning by taking one. But there are some people who keep taking handfulls of free samples, not caring how it affects others or the person who is providing the free samples. They keep coming back, taking more than one, Deliberately IGNORING the sign that says, 'Take One'.

Now if the person repents, no longer takes more than one, he has chosen to obey the 'rules'. He / She is forgiven. However, if the one who continues to take more than one, has an unrepentant heart, they do not care about the rules nor others affected by their behaviour. After a while the Manager says, they are no longer allowed to return to the sample displays, simply because they have broken the rules.

The Bible never said that we would never sin. But it does say, that we should not continue in our sin. Accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, means we are making a committment to no longer choose a sinful life. We are making a committment to turn away from our sins and to live giving honour to God. We will always be tempted, however we choose not to yield unto temptation. This is our acceptance of Jesus Christ who knew no sin and we are to be like Him. Jesus was not a liar, a thief, a backbiter, cheater, He did not commit sexual sin; yet as humans, we have all fallen into one or more of these sins, even after accepting Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.

This is God's Word says...

I John 2:1-6

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

:Rose: :Rose: :Rose:

God still expects us to live accordingly... not sin. We cannot take the Cross for granted. Jesus, Himself said that we must take up our Cross and carry it. We have to forsake our sins, and bear the weight of moving forward. We have to bear up against our flesh and commit to being faithful in Christ Jesus.

Over and Over and Over Jesus said: Go and sin no more...

Perfect. This is what I've been trying to say. What I don't want is for a new believer to stumble and then question their salvation because they sometimes fall short. That is not to say that they should intentionally fall short or be content with falling short. I just don't want anyone to read this thread or that one in off topic and think that IF they stumble, their salvation is void or never was.

 

[aribell]

Okay, just reread what I just bolded from your quote. This is what I'm talking about that most Christians say. "Christians do still fall short and sin" is a contradiction to "but we are not to continue in that sin." The first part of the sentence makes it like it's okay for Christians to sin while the last part is saying it is not okay for Christians to sin. It can't be both.

Hmm...why do you think the bolded? I think that the phrase "Christians do still fall short and sin" is a real observation about life. I know that there are many who are too content in sin, but recognizing the *fact* of sin's occurrence does not itself mean that it's OK.
__________________________________________________________

Pretty much across most Christian denominations and Christian tradition historically, sanctification has been considered a process that takes place over time. Christians should be growing in holiness and walking in the Spirit; and the content of our hearts does matter before God. Scripture is pretty clear that the "unrighteous" will not inherit the Kingdom of God and that only the righteous will stand before Him.

There is a corrupted Gospel message that says that righteousness is only about Jesus' life, so our personal righteousness means nothing. That's false. The Lord, throughout both the Old and New Testaments says continually that our works matter, and the purity of our hearts matter (works that come from a pure heart matter to God! It's empty works that he despises.). Sin is not without consequence, and living an upright life is imperative.

The question is how does one live a holy life that enables one to be pleasing to God? And that's God's grace--not in merely overlooking sin, but in filling us with His Spirit so that by Him, we might live for Him.

But it's up to us to walk by the Spirit or by the flesh. We don't have the power within ourselves to overcome the flesh. That's why many believers do not overcome sin--attempting to fight the flesh by the flesh. The only way to overcome sin is to surrender to life in the Spirit and stop following one's own appetites, mind, will and emotions. God's grace to overcome sin is always available to us; it's whether we will allow ourselves to be filled with it or not that is the question.

 

[FrazzledFraggle]

Hmm...why do you think the bolded? I think that the phrase "Christians do still fall short and sin" is a real observation about life. I know that there are many who are too content in sin, but recognizing the *fact* of sin's occurrence does not itself mean that it's OK.
__________________________________________________________

Pretty much across most Christian denominations and Christian tradition historically, sanctification has been considered a process that takes place over time. Christians should be growing in holiness and walking in the Spirit; and the content of our hearts does matter before God. Scripture is pretty clear that the "unrighteous" will not inherit the Kingdom of God and that only the righteous will stand before Him.

There is a corrupted Gospel message that says that righteousness is only about Jesus' life, so our personal righteousness means nothing. That's false. The Lord, throughout both the Old and New Testaments says continually that our works matter, and the purity of our hearts matter (works that come from a pure heart matter to God! It's empty works that he despises.). Sin is not without consequence, and living an upright life is imperative.

The question is how does one live a holy life that enables one to be pleasing to God? And that's God's grace--not in merely overlooking sin, but in filling us with His Spirit so that by Him, we might live for Him.

But it's up to us to walk by the Spirit or by the flesh. We don't have the power within ourselves to overcome the flesh. That's why many believers do not overcome sin--attempting to fight the flesh by the flesh. The only way to overcome sin is to surrender to life in the Spirit and stop following one's own appetites, mind, will and emotions. God's grace to overcome sin is always available to us; it's whether we will allow ourselves to be filled with it or not that is the question.

Yes, I always believed that sanctification was a process.

2 THESSALONIANS 2:13 “…because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.”

TITUS 2:11-14 “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.”

I think sometimes we forget that salvation is not the final destination in our relationship with God, but the beginning of our journey; and to understand that we must surrender our hearts to desire his sanctification for our lives.

Our salvation justifies us, or supernaturally makes us righteous by God.

JUSTIFICATION: JUST AS IF I HAD NEVER SINNED. GOD DECLARES YOU RIGHTEOUS BECAUSE OF YOUR FAITH IN JESUS. IT IS NOTHING YOU DID OR SHOULD HAVE DONE; NO WORKS, AT ALL, HAVE TO DO WITH JUSTIFICATION. IT IS ONLY A CHILD-LIKE FAITH THAT IS NEEDED.

LUKE 9:23 “IF ANYONE DESIRES TO COME AFTER ME, LET HIM DENY HIMSELF, AND TAKE UP HIS CROSS DAILY, AND FOLLOW ME.”

ROMANS 3:24 “BEING JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE THROUGH THE REDEMPTION THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS.”

ROMANS 4:5 “BUT TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK BUT BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

HOWEVER, ONCE WE ARE JUSTIFIED THROUGH SALVATION, GOD DOES NOT EXPECT US TO REMAIN STUCK IN OUR FLESH-CENTERED LIVES. INSTEAD, GOD EXPECTS US TO REFUSE TO “BE CONFORMED TO THIS WORLD, BUT BE TRANSFORMED BY THE RENEWING OF YOUR MIND, THAT YOU MAY PROVE WHAT IS THAT GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE AND PERFECT WILL OF GOD” ROMANS 12:2.

Sanctification is the ongoing process by which every believer is to daily yield her entire being to God in order to be purified and changed into the image of Christ. It is to be set apart for His purposes. It is to be peculiar. As we develop a lifestyle of saying “yes” to God and “no” to our flesh, we begin to undergo the process of sanctification by God. In short, sanctification is the road that takes us to holiness.

Sanctification is the inward spiritual work which the Lord Jesus Christ works in a man by the Holy Spirit, when he calls him to be a true believer. He not only washes him from his sins in his own blood, but he also separates him from his natural love of sin and the world, puts a new principle in his heart, and makes him practically godly in life. The instrument by which the Spirit effects this work is generally the Word of God.” Sometimes He uses afflictions and other means.

1 PETER 2:5 “You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”

But we must remember that it is our privilege to be purified by God.

1 PETER 2:9 “a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.”

Clearly, therefore, our responsibility is to turn away from the sin He saved us from so that He can take us through this life-changing sanctification process.

ROMANS 8:12-14 “Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation – but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.”

ROMANS 6:11-14 “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you can obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.”

1 THESSALONIANS 5:23 “Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

 

[FrazzledFraggle]

Okay, I'm really off of here until I get home! lol

 

[Poohbear]

Hmm...why do you think the bolded? I think that the phrase "Christians do still fall short and sin" is a real observation about life. I know that there are many who are too content in sin, but recognizing the *fact* of sin's occurrence does not itself mean that it's OK.

nicola.kirwan - I think the bolded because the Bible actually says "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" in Romans 3:23. This verse is NOT saying "All still sin and come short of the glory of God."

I also believe that all have sinned because of the implementation of the law. If there was no law, then sin can not be imputed (Romans 5:12-13).

I also agree that sin's occurrence does not itself mean that sin is okay. I wasn't saying that. I'm saying that's what other Christians think and believe. They believe just because the bible says "All have sinned" they think it's okay to sin, when it reality, it's not okay to sin.

 

[Poohbear]

nicola.kirwan and letskeepntouch

About sanctification....

To sanctify means to make holy; set apart as sacred; consecrate; to purify or free from sin...

To sanctify does not mean that it's a process of trying to get Christians to avoid committing sins that they know are wrong and never being free of those known sins...

For instance, let's say someone has decided to confess and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Let's say this someone did not know that telling a lie was wrong, and one day this person tells a lie to someone. Then that person is made aware through the Bible that bearing false witness and telling a lie is against God. At that point, since this person has accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, this person will ask God for forgiveness and repent of that sin (meaning to NEVER EVER tell a lie again). That to me is sanctification.

To me, this next scenario is NOT sanctification....let's say someone has decided to confess and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Let's say this someone read in the Bible that bearing false witness is against God and now knows that it is wrong. Let's say this person decides to tell a lie to someone anyway. This person knows he did wrong, feels bad about it, asks God for forgiveness of the sin. Then he decides to tell another lie a few weeks later. That is NOT sanctification no matter how sorry or bad he feels about telling a lie.

Sanctification is about turning away from sin completely that you know is wrong after accepting Jesus Christ in your life. Committing a known sin is different than committing a sin that you did not know was wrong as first. You are not being sanctified if you keep committing the same sins that you are very aware that are wrong.

Like the bible says in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, “Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

 

[aribell]

I think that being overly concerned with what a lot of Christians do is unhelpful. At the end of the day everyone stands before God's throne to be judged for what is in their heart and not for what's in someone else's.

I don't think that anyone has suggested that you can just sin and it will be OK. I said sin is not without consequence. Nor does sanctification mean that you do whatever and are still accepted before God. To be sanctified is to become holy.

I think that just looking at Scripture tells you that believers can and do sin. That's not something that people are just saying to get away with sin. It's a fact and so the question becomes how do we move away from sin rather than "How is it possible that a Christian sinned?" or "Do Christians sin?" Scripture already shows you plainly that the answer is yes it does happen, but it is possible for it not to happen.

But if you want the answer to be, "No, genuine Christians don't sin," then Scripture is not going to help at all, because that's not the reality that it shows us.