Homosexuality and Old Testament v. New Testament Law?

gone_fishing

New Member
Okay, I'm having a problem with something.

It is often said that we are under the "new testament law" and that the laws in the Old Testament no longer apply.

For instance in Old Testament law...I was not allowed to eat shrimp :nono: or wear clothes made of mixed fabrics, etc.

There are a lot of laws in leviticus that the Israelites were called to follows.

Today if a christian wants to eat a pork chop they'll remind people that although the old testament prohibited it, we are no longer under the old testament law.

I've heard:

The key to understanding this issue is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to make the Israelites know how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments for example), some of them were to show them how to worship God (the sacrificial system), some of them were to simply make the Israelites different from other nations (the food and clothing rules). So my understsanding is that none of the Old Testament law applies to us today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15).

In place of the Old Testament law, we are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) which is to, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.

And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.

All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:37-40).

If we do these two things, we will be fulfilling all that Christ wants for us to do, “This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3).

Now technically, the Ten Commandments are not even applicable to Christians since they are under the old testament law. However, 9 of the Ten Commandments are repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day).

Obviously, if we are loving God we won't be worshipping other gods or worshipping idols. That's a given. If we are loving our neighbors, we won't be murdering them, lying to them, committing adultery against them, or coveting what belongs to them. So, we are not under any of the requirements of the Old Testament law. We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we do those two things faithfully, everything else will fall into place.

NOW here is my dilemma.

If you believe that we are not under old testament law and that old testament law was abolished:

How do I explain to homosexuals WHY being homosexual is STILL wrong since the command to refrain from it was discusssed in Leviticus which is an old testament book and we are under new testament law?

I need a direct answer as direct as possible, please.
 
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divya

Well-Known Member
I believe that the belief that the Old Testament is invalid is actually false doctrine.That is what many, if not the majority of Christians believe. I understand that the believe is usually sincere. However, only sacrificial and ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross. That's why the Ten Commandments - the moral law - are valid, and can be found repeated in the New Testament. The same goes for instruction against homosexuality etc.
 
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gone_fishing

New Member
I believe that the Old Testament is invalid is actually false doctrine.That is what many, if not the majority of Christians believe. I understand that the believe is usually sincere. However, only sacrificial and ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross. That's why the Ten Commandments - the moral law - are valid, and can be found repeated in the New Testament. The same goes for instruction against homosexuality etc.

Thank you! That's what I needed to know. But where explicitly does it say that?
 

divya

Well-Known Member
Thank you! That's what I needed to know. But where explicitly does it say that?

All of the Ten Commandments are repeated/shown in the New Testament and Jesus followed them and taught them. That's the explicit instruction in the New Testament. However, because Jesus is our sacrificial Lamb, we now need no other.

Matthew 5:17-19 (King James Version) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

See what Jesus told this man about his own salvation:

Matthew 19:16-21
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
 
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gone_fishing

New Member
All of the Ten Commandments are repeated/shown in the New Testament and Jesus followed them and taught them. That's the explicit instruction in the New Testament. However, because Jesus is our sacrificial Lamb, we now need no other.

Matthew 5:17-19 (King James Version) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Just reminding you that one of them (re: the sabbath) was not repeated.

Thank you for this scripture! You are right on!
 

DonnaDi31Proverbi

New Member
Thank you! That's what I needed to know. But where explicitly does it say that?

Reading Romans helped me to gain some understanding about how we are no longer under the law presented in the OT, but now are justified through Jesus Christ.


Romans 2:17-29
17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."[b]

25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[c] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. 28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.


Romans 3:21-31
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Roman 6:15-23
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 7:7-25
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[b] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

So basically, sin is still sin (including homosexuality), whether OT or NT, its just that we don't need to use the law to justify our sins, instead we are justified through Jesus Christ and we avoid sin by allowing God to give us a "renewed mind" and revived spirit!!

HTH
 

divya

Well-Known Member
Just reminding you that one of them (re: the sabbath) was not repeated.

Thank you for this scripture! You are right on!

It actually was, because Jesus kept it. We are to follow His example. He said to keep His Commandments. Does that mean keep all minus one? Believe it or not Christians kept the Sabbath unless paganism entered the church via Catholicism. That is why people keep Sunday today.

Mark 2:27 states: And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.

The Bible also says that the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. We have no right to change it.
 
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divya

Well-Known Member
Reading Romans helped me to gain some understanding about how we are no longer under the law presented in the OT, but now are justified through Jesus Christ.


Romans 2:17-29
17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."[b]

25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[c] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. 28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.


Romans 3:21-31
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Roman 6:15-23
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 7:7-25
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[b] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

So basically, sin is still sin (including homosexuality), whether OT or NT, its just that we don't need to use the law to justify our sins, instead we are justified through Jesus Christ and we avoid sin by allowing God to give us a "renewed mind" and revived spirit!!

HTH

Romans shows that the law cannot save, only Jesus can. However, we are still to love God and keep his Commandments.
 
I believe that the Old Testament is invalid is actually false doctrine.That is what many, if not the majority of Christians believe. I understand that the believe is usually sincere. However, only sacrificial and ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross. That's why the Ten Commandments - the moral law - are valid, and can be found repeated in the New Testament. The same goes for instruction against homosexuality etc.


That was right on! :yep:
 

dicapr

Well-Known Member
Just reminding you that one of them (re: the sabbath) was not repeated.

Thank you for this scripture! You are right on!


He also did not repeate the 1-3 commandment, I do not think we can ignore those, so why do christians feel the need to ignore the 4th?
 

gone_fishing

New Member
It actually was, because Jesus kept it. We are to follow His example. He said to keep His Commandments. Does that mean keep all minus one? Believe it or not Christians kept the Sabbath unless paganism entered the church via Catholicism. That is why people keep Sunday today.

Mark 2:27 states: And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.

The Bible also says that the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. We have no right to change it.

You are right. It just was not all listed in the same place:


Commandment 1 "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Mat 4:10). "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and the great commandment" (Mat 22:37). "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment" (Mk 12:30). "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8).

Commandment 2 "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Mat 4:10). "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8). "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:24). "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam...to eat things sacrificed to idols" (Rev 2:14). "Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, because you allow...My servants to...eat things sacrificed to idols" (Rev 2:20).

Commandment 3 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men" (Mat 12:31). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts,...blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20).

Commandment 4 "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" (Mat 12:11-12). "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath" (Mat 24:20); there would be no reason to pray this if the Sabbath was not going to be in existence. "And He said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath'" (Mk 2:27); this verse tells all who will see which day is the Lord's Day. "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue" (Mk 6:2). "And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read" (Luke 4:16). "Then He went down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and was teaching them on the Sabbaths" (Luke 4:31). "The Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath...Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?" (Luke 6:5,9). "But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath...The Lord then answered him and said, 'Hypocrite...So ought not this woman...be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?'" (Luke (13:14-16). "'Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?'...And they could not answer Him regarding these things" (Luke 14:3,6). "are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?" (John 7:23).

Commandment 5 "For God commanded saying, 'Honor your father and your mother' and 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death'" (Mat 15:4). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mat 19:19). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mk 7:10). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Honor your father and your mother" (Luke 18:20).

Commandment 6 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder', and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment" (Mat 5:21-22). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not murder" (Mat 19:18). "...murders...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:21,23). "Do not murder" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Do not murder" (Luke 18:20).

Commandment 7 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery'. But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Mat 5:27-28). "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Mat 5:32). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...adulteries, fornications...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery, and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery" (Mat 19:9). "You shall not commit adultery" (Mat 19:18). "...adulteries, fornications...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:21,23). "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery" (Mk 10:11-12). "Do not commit adultery" (Mk 10:19). "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery" (Luke 16:18). "You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery" (Luke 18:20). "'Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery'...And Jesus said to her...'sin no more'" (John 8:4,11). "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation" (Rev 2:22).

Commandment 8 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...thefts...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not steal" (Mat 19:18). "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer', but you have made it a den of thieves" (Mat 21:13). "...thefts...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:22-23). "Do not steal" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:... Do not steal" (Luke 18:20).

Commandment 9 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord. But I say to you, do not swear at all" (Mat 5:33-34). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...false witness...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not bear false witness" (Mat 19:18). "Do not bear false witness" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Do not bear false witness" (Luke 18:20). "And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars" (Rev 2:2).

Commandment 10 "Do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on" (Mat 6:25). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "...covetousness...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:22-23).
"I have kept My Father's commandments" (John 15:10).

So it is clear that Jesus taught everyone of the ten commandments and that he also kept them.
 

Aviah

Well-Known Member
Okay, I'm having a problem with something.

It is often said that we are under the "new testament law" and that the laws in the Old Testament no longer apply.

For instance in Old Testament law...I was not allowed to eat shrimp :nono: or wear clothes made of mixed fabrics, etc.

There are a lot of laws in leviticus that the Israelites were called to follows.

Today if a christian wants to eat a pork chop they'll remind people that although the old testament prohibited it, we are no longer under the old testament law.

I've heard:



NOW here is my dilemma.

If you believe that we are not under old testament law and that old testament law was abolished:

How do I explain to homosexuals WHY being homosexual is STILL wrong since the command to refrain from it was discusssed in Leviticus which is an old testament book and we are under new testament law?

I need a direct answer as direct as possible, please.

Hey Adequate,
Funny I just got an email today for GotQuestions.org on this matter (well somewhat anyway) I'll just copy and paste the relative parts:

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). There is a tendency to declare homosexuality as the worst of all sins. While it is undeniable, biblically speaking, that homosexuality is immoral and unnatural (Romans 1:26-27), in no sense does the Bible describe homosexuality as an unforgivable sin. Nor does the Bible teach that homosexuality is a sin Christians will never struggle against.

Just another thing to take into consideration, only some versions say homosexuals, I think some use the term "abusers of themselves"
HTH! :bighug:
 

Crackers Phinn

Either A Blessing Or A Lesson.
I believe that the Old Testament is invalid is actually false doctrine.That is what many, if not the majority of Christians believe. I understand that the believe is usually sincere. However, only sacrificial and ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross. That's why the Ten Commandments - the moral law - are valid, and can be found repeated in the New Testament. The same goes for instruction against homosexuality etc.

Honest question:

So you reject the stories of the Creation, original sin, Job, Noahs Ark, etc. or is it just the laws of the OT that are rejected?
 

divya

Well-Known Member
Honest question:

So you reject the stories of the Creation, original sin, Job, Noahs Ark, etc. or is it just the laws of the OT that are rejected?

Sorry I typed that wrong...LOL! I just corrected it. It should read....

I believe that the BELIEF THAT Old Testament is invalid is actually false doctrine.That is what many, if not the majority of Christians believe. I understand that the believe is usually sincere. However, only sacrificial and ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross. That's why the Ten Commandments - the moral law - are valid, and can be found repeated in the New Testament. The same goes for instruction against homosexuality etc.
 

divya

Well-Known Member
You are right. It just was not all listed in the same place:


Commandment 1 "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Mat 4:10). "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and the great commandment" (Mat 22:37). "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment" (Mk 12:30). "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8).

Commandment 2 "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Mat 4:10). "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve" (Luke 4:8). "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:24). "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam...to eat things sacrificed to idols" (Rev 2:14). "Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, because you allow...My servants to...eat things sacrificed to idols" (Rev 2:20).

Commandment 3 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men" (Mat 12:31). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts,...blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20).

Commandment 4 "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" (Mat 12:11-12). "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath" (Mat 24:20); there would be no reason to pray this if the Sabbath was not going to be in existence. "And He said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath'" (Mk 2:27); this verse tells all who will see which day is the Lord's Day. "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue" (Mk 6:2). "And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read" (Luke 4:16). "Then He went down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and was teaching them on the Sabbaths" (Luke 4:31). "The Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath...Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?" (Luke 6:5,9). "But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath...The Lord then answered him and said, 'Hypocrite...So ought not this woman...be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?'" (Luke (13:14-16). "'Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?'...And they could not answer Him regarding these things" (Luke 14:3,6). "are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?" (John 7:23).

Commandment 5 "For God commanded saying, 'Honor your father and your mother' and 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death'" (Mat 15:4). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mat 19:19). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mk 7:10). "Honor your father and your mother" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Honor your father and your mother" (Luke 18:20).

Commandment 6 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder', and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment" (Mat 5:21-22). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not murder" (Mat 19:18). "...murders...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:21,23). "Do not murder" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Do not murder" (Luke 18:20).

Commandment 7 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery'. But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Mat 5:27-28). "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery" (Mat 5:32). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...adulteries, fornications...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery, and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery" (Mat 19:9). "You shall not commit adultery" (Mat 19:18). "...adulteries, fornications...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:21,23). "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery" (Mk 10:11-12). "Do not commit adultery" (Mk 10:19). "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery" (Luke 16:18). "You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery" (Luke 18:20). "'Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery'...And Jesus said to her...'sin no more'" (John 8:4,11). "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation" (Rev 2:22).

Commandment 8 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...thefts...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not steal" (Mat 19:18). "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer', but you have made it a den of thieves" (Mat 21:13). "...thefts...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:22-23). "Do not steal" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:... Do not steal" (Luke 18:20).

Commandment 9 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord. But I say to you, do not swear at all" (Mat 5:33-34). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...false witness...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "You shall not bear false witness" (Mat 19:18). "Do not bear false witness" (Mk 10:19). "You know the commandments:...Do not bear false witness" (Luke 18:20). "And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars" (Rev 2:2).

Commandment 10 "Do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on" (Mat 6:25). "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts...These are the things which defile a man" (Mat 15:19-20). "...covetousness...All these evil things come from within and defile a man" (Mk 7:22-23).
"I have kept My Father's commandments" (John 15:10).

So it is clear that Jesus taught everyone of the ten commandments and that he also kept them.


Yes! It's all there!

I need to get into deeper study of these things though. I should know those verses offhand! Thank you!
 

Ms.Honey

New Member
It actually was, because Jesus kept it. We are to follow His example. He said to keep His Commandments. Does that mean keep all minus one? Believe it or not Christians kept the Sabbath unless paganism entered the church via Catholicism. That is why people keep Sunday today.

Mark 2:27 states: And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.

The Bible also says that the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. We have no right to change it.

The N.T. begins with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. He was an O.T. saint. He lived the law and fulfilled it. The N.T. which is an actually testament not a bible separation begins at the end of the gospel stories at that point and at the book of Acts.
We hold worship services on Sundays because He rose on the first day of the week Sunday morning. In the O.T. they were instructed to keep the sabbath holy. We as N.T. saints have been instructed to keep everyday Holy and choose not our own work because He is the Lord of the Sabbath every day. He's fulfilled it.
 

divya

Well-Known Member
The N.T. begins with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. He was an O.T. saint. He lived the law and fulfilled it. The N.T. which is an actually testament not a bible separation begins at the end of the gospel stories at that point and at the book of Acts.
We hold worship services on Sundays because He rose on the first day of the week Sunday morning. In the O.T. they were instructed to keep the sabbath holy. We as N.T. saints have been instructed to keep everyday Holy and choose not our own work because He is the Lord of the Sabbath every day. He's fulfilled it.

Sorry, but I'll have to disagree with that. His fulfillment of the law is not its destruction - Christ stated that himself.

Matthew 5:17-19 (King James Version) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Worship services are held on Sunday because of the agreement between Constantine and the Catholic church that ended up permeated the majority of Christianity. Higher ups in the Catholic church have acknowledged their responsibility for the change. There were other Christians who were not affected that continued to keep the Sabbath holy, and many others who have come to the understanding as well. God is the same yesterday, today and always. Many people sincerely worship on Sunday and God will acknowledge that. But those of us who know what we ought to do must do it...
 

divya

Well-Known Member
Statements out the Catholic church...

“The abandonment of the Sabbath and the adoption of Sunday as the Lord’s Day, are the result of an interplay of Christian, Jewish and pagan religious factor’s”. Vincenzo Monachino, S.J., Chairman of the Church History Department, Pontifical Gregorian University, 29th June, 1977.


"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we [Catholics] never sanctify."-JAMES CARDINAL GIBBONS, "The Faith of Our Fathers," page 111.


"There is but one church on the face of the earth which has the power, or claims power, to make laws binding on the con�*science, binding before God, binding under penalty of hell-fire. For instance, the institution of Sunday. What right has any other church to keep this day? You answer by virtue of the third commandment [the Papacy changed the fourth commandment and called it the third], which says, 'Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.' But Sunday is not the Sabbath. Any school�*boy knows that Sunday is the first day of the week. I have re�*peatedly offered one thousand dollars to anyone who will prove by the Bible alone that Sunday is the day we are bound to keep, and no one has called for the money. It was the holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest from Saturday, the seventh day, to Sunday, the first day of the week."-T. ENRIGHT, C.S.S.R., in a lecture delivered in 1893.


"I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.' The Catholic Church says: 'No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' And lo! the entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.' - T. ENRIGHT, C.S.S.R., in a lecture at Hartford, Kan�*sas, Feb. 18, 1884.


"Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Com�*promise is impossible' "-JAMES CARDINAL GIBBONS, Catholic Mirror, Dec. 23, 1983.


"Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days." John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies (1 936), vol. 1, P. 51.



"For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible. Catholic Virginian Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. "To Tell You the Truth."



I personally would like to read all the sources for myself but for now, as there are so many in addition to other evidence, I do believe them.
 

Ms.Honey

New Member
Sorry, but I'll have to disagree with that. His fulfillment of the law is not its destruction - Christ stated that himself.



Worship services are held on Sunday because of the agreement between Constantine and the Catholic church that ended up permeated the majority of Christianity. Higher ups in the Catholic church have acknowledged their responsibility for the change. There were other Christians who were not affected that continued to keep the Sabbath holy, and many others who have come to the understanding as well. God is the same yesterday, today and always. Many people sincerely worship on Sunday and God will acknowledge that. But those of us who know what we ought to do must do it...
Who said anything about destruction? He sealed the N.T. in His blood. We have a NEW testament. I don't just worship Him on Sunday's. I worship Him everyday. And if you read in Acts I believe they said that they broke bread daily and went from house to house. No one is gonna get brownie points for worshipping on Saturday, Sunday or any other day.
Christianity didn't start with Constantine or the Catholic church. I don't know why we always want to point out what the catholics did. The reason they did it is irrelevant. In most Protestant churches we hold worship services on Sunday's because Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday morning. Why the Catholics do it is their business.
 

divya

Well-Known Member
Who said anything about destruction? He sealed the N.T. in His blood. We have a NEW testament. I don't just worship Him on Sunday's. I worship Him everyday. And if you read in Acts I believe they said that they broke bread daily and went from house to house. No one is gonna get brownie points for worshipping on Saturday, Sunday or any other day.
Christianity didn't start with Constantine or the Catholic church. I don't know why we always want to point out what the catholics did. The reason they did it is irrelevant. In most Protestant churches we hold worship services on Sunday's because Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday morning. Why the Catholics do it is their business.

The Bible says it. Christ said in the Bible that His law is not to be destroyed. We should worship every day! But we cannot keep every day holy as Lord did bless, sanctify and hollow the Sabbath day. The Sabbath was made for us. It's not about brownie points. It's about loving God and keeping His commandments. Christ is instructed us to do so, live it and thus, so should we. In fact, even when Christ died, He RESTED on the Sabbath and arose on Sunday. When you think about it, that in itself is a testament to the importance of the Sabbath. It's wonderful that we have an entire God-given day to commune with the Lord.

Sunday worship, not Christianity, started with Constantine and the Catholic church. I understand why most Protestant churches keep Sunday today but that is not based on Biblical instruction.
 

Ms.Honey

New Member
The Bible says it. Christ said in the Bible that His law is not to be destroyed. We should worship every day! But we cannot keep every day holy as Lord did bless, sanctify and hollow the Sabbath day. The Sabbath was made for us. It's not about brownie points. It's about loving God and keeping His commandments. Christ is instructed us to do so, live it and thus, so should we. In fact, even when Christ died, He RESTED on the Sabbath and arose on Sunday. When you think about it, that in itself is a testament to the importance of the Sabbath. It's wonderful that we have an entire God-given day to commune with the Lord.

Sunday worship, not Christianity, started with Constantine and the Catholic church. I understand why most Protestant churches keep Sunday today but that is not based on Biblical instruction.

What makes you believe that NO ONE worshipped on Sunday's until the Catholics and Constantine said it was ok to do so.
Jesus did NOT rest on the sabbath. He took captivity captive and preached the gospel to the saints in Abraham's Bossom/paradise, that's work not rest. He also talked about keeping the Sabbath in the gospels Matthew12:1-14. The Jews were accusing Him of not keeping the sabbath holy. The sabbath of the O.T. was about far more than church services being held on that day. Do you keep the sabbath they way the Lord instructed in the O.T. completely? You may wan to read Acts 15 also. The Lord spoke of gving us another rest in the O.T. and we recieved that with Jesus' sacrifice. He that keepeth the law must abide by the WHOLE law. I thank the Father that I'm saved by His Grace through His Son Jesus not through the law which no man can keep.
 

envybeauty

New Member
Just asking:

Wasn't he a Jew and don't Jews take their sabbath from Friday night to Saturday night? So did he consider Sunday the sabbath? I mean ...if he went to temple (Jewish temple), then wouldn't he have gone Friday/Saturday?

Anyone know?

What makes you believe that NO ONE worshipped on Sunday's until the Catholics and Constantine said it was ok to do so.
Jesus did NOT rest on the sabbath. He took captivity captive and preached the gospel to the saints in Abraham's Bossom/paradise, that's work not rest. He also talked about keeping the Sabbath in the gospels Matthew12:1-14. The Jews were accusing Him of not keeping the sabbath holy. The sabbath of the O.T. was about far more than church services being held on that day. Do you keep the sabbath they way the Lord instructed in the O.T. completely? You may wan to read Acts 15 also. The Lord spoke of gving us another rest in the O.T. and we recieved that with Jesus' sacrifice. He that keepeth the law must abide by the WHOLE law. I thank the Father that I'm saved by His Grace through His Son Jesus not through the law which no man can keep.
 

divya

Well-Known Member
What makes you believe that NO ONE worshipped on Sunday's until the Catholics and Constantine said it was ok to do so.
Jesus did NOT rest on the sabbath. He took captivity captive and preached the gospel to the saints in Abraham's Bossom/paradise, that's work not rest. He also talked about keeping the Sabbath in the gospels Matthew12:1-14. The Jews were accusing Him of not keeping the sabbath holy. The sabbath of the O.T. was about far more than church services being held on that day. Do you keep the sabbath they way the Lord instructed in the O.T. completely? You may wan to read Acts 15 also. The Lord spoke of gving us another rest in the O.T. and we recieved that with Jesus' sacrifice. He that keepeth the law must abide by the WHOLE law. I thank the Father that I'm saved by His Grace through His Son Jesus not through the law which no man can keep.

Doing good for the furtherance of the gospel constitutes keeping the Sabbath day holy or rather "resting" on the Sabbath day, according the Jesus. I believe the verses have been previously posted. Christ surely did keep the Sabbath day holy and that anyone would argue otherwise is saddening. Yes, I do my best to keep the Sabbath as the Bible teaches we should. Of course, we are saved by grace of Christ, and Christ says in the Bible that if you love Him, then keep His commandments. That is evidence of our love for Him.

It never says that because Christ is the way to salvation, that is now it is fine to lie, cheat, steal, break the Sabbath, covet or murder. The sacrificial and ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross, but the moral law of God and His counsel remains. Why is it that so many understand all the other commandments and encourage each other to keep it, save one? That simply isn't what they Bible has taught us to do.

Oh yes, as for when Sunday worship began, it's been recorded. Of course, one can choose not to believe it, but that still does not make Sunday worship Biblical.
 

divya

Well-Known Member
Just asking:

Wasn't he a Jew and don't Jews take their sabbath from Friday night to Saturday night? So did he consider Sunday the sabbath? I mean ...if he went to temple (Jewish temple), then wouldn't he have gone Friday/Saturday?

Anyone know?

Yes, that is the Sabbath - from Friday night to Saturday night. So Sunday was not and is not the Sabbath. Christ kept the Sabbath (Friday/Saturday), in life and "in death."
 
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Ms.Honey

New Member
Doing good for the furtherance of the gospel constitutes keeping the Sabbath day holy or rather "resting" on the Sabbath day, according the Jesus. How is picking corn and eating it on the sabbath an act of good and the furtherance of the gospel. He is the LORD(ruler) of the sabbath. Isn't worshipping God even on a Sunday doing good and furthering the gospel?
I believe the verses have been previously posted. Christ surely did keep the Sabbath day holy and that anyone would argue otherwise is saddening. Yes, I do my best to keep the Sabbath as the Bible teaches we should. Of course, we are saved by grace of Christ, and Christ says in the Bible that if you love Him, then keep His commandments. That is evidence of our love for Him.

It never says that because Christ is the way to salvation, that is now it is fine to lie, cheat, steal, break the Sabbath, covet or murder. The sacrificial and ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross, but the moral law of God and His counsel remains. Why is it that so many understand all the other commandments and encourage each other to keep it, save one? That simply isn't what they Bible has taught us to do.
God said he would give us ANOTHER rest (sabbath) and that rest is the salvation of Christ.

Oh yes, as for when Sunday worship began, it's been recorded. Of course, one can choose not to believe it, but that still does not make Sunday worship Biblical.
So it has to be recorded to be possible? And because it hasn't been FOUND to have been recorded before that it's impossible that folks worshipped on Sundays before the Catholics did? That doesn't even make sense.
 

divya

Well-Known Member

How is picking corn and eating it on the sabbath an act of good and the furtherance of the gospel. He is the LORD(ruler) of the sabbath. Isn't worshipping God even on a Sunday doing good and furthering the gospel?

God said he would give us ANOTHER rest (sabbath) and that rest is the salvation of Christ.

So it has to be recorded to be possible? And because it hasn't been FOUND to have been recorded before that it's impossible that folks worshipped on Sundays before the Catholics did? That doesn't even make sense.

Again, the issue is not worshiping God on Sunday or any other day. We should! However, we cannot keep every day Holy because the Lord blessed, sanctified and hollowed the Sabbath day.

He did not do that for Sunday or any other day, and did not change the Sabbath (the 7th day).

Even if some people did digress from the truth and worship on Sunday previous to the occasion between Catholics and Constantine, it does not not may Sunday keeping as opposed to Sabbath keeping Biblical. It simply is not.
 

Ms.Honey

New Member
Just asking:

Wasn't he a Jew and don't Jews take their sabbath from Friday night to Saturday night? So did he consider Sunday the sabbath? I mean ...if he went to temple (Jewish temple), then wouldn't he have gone Friday/Saturday?

Anyone know?
Yes, Jesus was an O.T. saint and lived by the law He fulfilled it.
Sunday is not the sabbath Saturday is. I don't recall the law saying that you had to attend worship service on the sabbath.
 
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