Non-Mainstream Christianity

[momi]

Ok ladies. I pray the Lord is keeping you and yours surrounded with love and faith. I really do appreciate the growth and knowledge I have gained from studying the word of God.

I would like to revisit not going straight to heaven when we die again.

On the cross during His crucifixion Jesus tells the criminal that TODAY he would be with him in paradise.

Luke 43: Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

This scripture, to me, is proving that there is no wait.

Paul also says "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2Corinthians 5:8, KJV).

So if I am absent in my body (died) then am I not with the Lord?

Exactly - once we leave this earth through death we as believers will immediately be present with The Lord.

Stephen the first Christian martyr opened his eyes as he was dying - heaven opened, and he saw The Lord.

The thief on the cross was promised that he would be with The Lord "this day"...

Phil 1:23 - I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

Our spirits immediately go to be with The Lord - then at the resurrection of believers our physical bodies are reiunted with our souls...

 

[dicapr]

Ok ladies. I pray the Lord is keeping you and yours surrounded with love and faith. I really do appreciate the growth and knowledge I have gained from studying the word of God.

I would like to revisit not going straight to heaven when we die again.

On the cross during His crucifixion Jesus tells the criminal that TODAY he would be with him in paradise.

Luke 43: Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

This scripture, to me, is proving that there is no wait.

Paul also says "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2Corinthians 5:8, KJV).

So if I am absent in my body (died) then am I not with the Lord?

Luke 43 does state that the theif would be with Jesus in paradise. However, Jesus is not raised until Sunday and states that he had not yet seen his Father. If he went to heaven after his death he would have already seen the Father. My understanding is that in Luke 43 Jesus was letting the theif know that he had Salvation that day and he had a place in heaven that day. I don't think that verse is a case for going to heaven after death just because it doesn't mesh with Reserrection Sunday.

 

[MrJohnsonsRib]

Mamita, I agree that God is able to change the outside. However, the outside doesn't always reflect the inside. Think of Samuel when God sent him to annoint David. Samuel was guilty of judging who would be the next king based solely on the appearence of Jessie's sons. David did not look like king material, but he had a heart for the Lord. Look at Rahab the harlot. You can best believe that she was dressed according to her profession. However, she knew that Isreal was God's chosen people and had the heart to help. The bible is full of examples of those who were rightous even though the did not fit the current definition of what a rightous person should look like. The inside matters more than the outside ever will. The Pharasees (sp?) looked rightous in every way but their heart was far from the Lord. We do not always know where someone used to be, we cannot always judge if there has been a change or an improvement. It's kind of like someone being 100 lbs over weight. You may think that individual needs someone to talk to them about health living and exercise. What you may not know it that they just lost 50 lbs. That is why we need to ask the Lord to help us see the inner person while he is changing the outside.

I am actually a very modest individual by nature. I have always been that way. I believe that God wants us to be modest according to the standards of the day we live in. People make snap judgements about who someone is depending on their appearance. However there are many who use the outside to promote false advertising.

I'm careful about saying that I 100% agree with someone but I'm gonna put my "Amen stamp" on there with what you said. I feel the same way about the whole Christian "APPEARANCE", the work of the Lord is never gonna go void whether we think we foolin folks by playin or if we are still growing up in Christ with some hangups. The Lord still loves a backslider anyway so nobody can boast themselves up above anybody, including in their appearance. I am just so glad that even though we have so many different Christian views that the Lord sees our heart and our true desire to serve Him at our best because of His grace and mercy. Talk about unconditional love...so glad I get to be his bride when he comes back.:reddancer:

 

[mz tracy 25]

In regards to that, my father always taught (he's a scholar, and a minister), that the comma was placed in the wrong place during translation and it was supposed to say, " I tell you the truth today, you shall be with me in paradise." And if that's the truth, it makes sense. If not, it seems like the bible is contradicting itself. Man makes errors, and sometimes this causes people to say the bible is erroneous, but this is not so. Whenever in doubt look up the original Hebrew meaning of words, like the word fornication doesn't mean having sex and not being married. Married persons can commit fornication as well, and single persons who have sex aren't necessarily committing fornication. Do your research. Here's a starting point:http://jesus-messiah.com/html/fornication.html

And here's a few other things I believe:

1. The Sabbath is Saturday, not Sunday
2. Christmas and Easter are totally pagan holidays and celebrating them is actually worshipping God in vain. You can't put Christ back in something he was never in. Farrakhan isn't even a Christian and he knows. Wake up people! lol. Here's some vids on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQwSBWN8K40&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qnOLzxVyC0

 

[aribell]

In regards to that, my father always taught (he's a scholar, and a minister), that the comma was placed in the wrong place during translation and it was supposed to say, " I tell you the truth today, you shall be with me in paradise." And if that's the truth, it makes sense. If not, it seems like the bible is contradicting itself. Man makes errors, and sometimes this causes people to say the bible is erroneous, but this is not so. Whenever in doubt look up the original Hebrew meaning of words, like the word fornication doesn't mean having sex and not being married. Married persons can commit fornication as well, and single persons who have sex aren't necessarily committing fornication. Do your research. Here's a starting point:http://jesus-messiah.com/html/fornication.html

That is a very interesting point abou the comma. That makes so much more sense. Sometimes I think we want the the Bible to be pure, unadulterated truth. And God's word is definitely true without error, but our task is to continually translate and interpret it correctly, which is a continual process.

 

[aribell]

I'm late, but I don't believe in the penal substitutionary theory of the atonement. The Cross is definitey necessary, central, and the means by which we are saved. But still, I don't think that the purpose of Jesus dying on the Cross was so that God could pour out His wrath on Him instead of us.

I don't believe that the Protestant Reformation was a good thing.

I also don't believe that "sola Scriptura" as generally applied is a biblical principle.

And this may or may not be non-mainstream depending on where you are, but I don't believe that the charismatic gifts ceased with the NT church. The fact that we don't experience them more fully and more often in this country is reflective of a lagging spiritual state.

 

[blazingthru]

Ok ladies. I pray the Lord is keeping you and yours surrounded with love and faith. I really do appreciate the growth and knowledge I have gained from studying the word of God.

I would like to revisit not going straight to heaven when we die again.

On the cross during His crucifixion Jesus tells the criminal that TODAY he would be with him in paradise.

Luke 43: Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

This scripture, to me, is proving that there is no wait.

Paul also says "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2Corinthians 5:8, KJV).

So if I am absent in my body (died) then am I not with the Lord?

I rather be with God then here on this earth in this body with its many afflictions. Is What Paul was saying, he was saying if he wasn’t here he rather be with the Lord. If he had died upon his first awaken he would be with the lord. As we all who died in Christ, We know that he isn’t saying when you die you go to be with the Lord because in 1 Thess 4:16 – 17 Jesus is coming to get those who love him and have obeyed his commandments. He is coming to bring up those from the grave. He is coming with a lot of noise. When you die, you sleep in your grave. Your breath of life returns to God, its just air nothing more than that. Just air. Your spirit/body remains asleep. The passage above is a clerical error it is missing a comma or rather the comma is in the wrong place as Dicapr has stated.
Those Who Died in Christ
13But (AD)we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who (AE)are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do (AF)the rest who have (AG)no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, (AH)even so God will bring with Him (AI)those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you (AJ)by the word of the Lord, that (AK)we who are alive and remain until (AL)the coming of the Lord, will not precede (AM)those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of (AQ)the archangel and with the (AR)trumpet of God, and (AS)the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then (AT)we who are alive and remain will be (AU)caught up together with them (AV)in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always (AW)be with the Lord.
18Therefore comfort one another with these words.
So if I am absent in my body (died) then am I not with the Lord? what makes you you will be with the body until the return of Jesus and then your breath will return to you body and you will recieved a new body and go with Jesus to heaven.

 

[Crown]

Married persons can commit fornication as well, and single persons who have sex aren't necessarily committing fornication. Do your research. Here's a starting point:http://jesus-messiah.com/html/fornication.html

I don't agree with the bold and I don't think I saw this in the article. But, I want to thank you for this link.
It's a very interesting article about fornication :
Does the word fornication mean sexual relations only between single persons? No!
Fornication can also be between unmarried persons. It does not take a rocket scientist to see that if two people are single and not married to each other they can commit fornication...
Does the Greek allow for fornication to be sex only by single persons? NO!
Here are the persons who can commit fornication: Those who commit adultery, Those who commit incest, Idolatry is fornication, Unlawful lust, A harlot or a whore, A male prostitute, A female prostitute, Whoremongers.

And, there are more articles here :
http://jesus-messiah.com/studies.html

 

[aribell]

Married persons can commit fornication as well, and single persons who have sex aren't necessarily committing fornication. Do your research. Here's a starting point:http://jesus-messiah.com/html/fornication.html

While the definition of fornication may be broader than acts between single persons, it is definitely all inclusive of sexual acts between unmarried persons. The article cited puts it this way: "Fornication is all sexual conduct except that between a man and wife. If a married person has relations with anyone to whom they are not married this is fornication."

So, single persons who have sex would definitely be committing fornication, as the only legitimate context in which one can have sex is marriage (with one's own spouse). I just don't want people to take the black bolded and run away with it.

 

[Crown]

Ok ladies. I pray the Lord is keeping you and yours surrounded with love and faith. I really do appreciate the growth and knowledge I have gained from studying the word of God.

I would like to revisit not going straight to heaven when we die again.

On the cross during His crucifixion Jesus tells the criminal that TODAY he would be with him in paradise.

Luke 43: Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

This scripture, to me, is proving that there is no wait.

Paul also says "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2Corinthians 5:8, KJV).

So if I am absent in my body (died) then am I not with the Lord?

There is no wait only through Christ, not the little you(general), but by adoption. When the breath of life returns to God, if you have received the salvation, it is sealed with the Holy Spirit of God. It's not you because you are dust and hoping for the redemption of your body and the eternal life of God in this new body. It is the identification of the Holy Spirit of God. If you(general) are not saved, there is no identification.

Mat. 7.21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 7.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7.23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 8.10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 8.11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
[FONT=&quot]8.14[FONT=&quot] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 8.15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 8.16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: [/FONT]
[/FONT] 8.23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 8.24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 8.25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
8.35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
8.37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 8.38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 8.39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[FONT=&quot]1Cor. [/FONT]15.20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 15.21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 15.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 15.23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 15.24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 15.25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 15.26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Thes. 4.13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 4.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 4.15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 4.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4.17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 4.18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Dan. 12.2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 12.3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
12.13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

2Cor. 5.10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Dead or living, believers are living through Jesus-Christ. One does not receive immortality before the others. It will be at the second coming of Jesus-Christ.

 

[mz tracy 25]

Married persons can commit fornication as well, and single persons who have sex aren't necessarily committing fornication. Do your research. Here's a starting point:http://jesus-messiah.com/html/fornication.html

I meant to say "single persons who have sex aren't necessarily the only ones committing fornication.

 

[Sharpened]

I do not give to organizations who are strict adherents to 501-c3 tax code. I give to give, never for tax deductions. Why?

Matthew 6:3-4 But when you do alms, let not your left hand know what your right hand does. That your alms may be in secret and your Father which sees in secret himself shall reward you openly.

I made the mistake of bragging about the fact that the organization I gave to was not under the government's influence through that tax code. Three days later, I got their envelope in the mail and learned they relented to file under non-profit status, hoping to keep their doors open. Sad as I was, I repented and He provided two different places not under 501-c3 I could help.

I now this does not make sense to most, but I am encouraged by those who lean on Him regardless of whatever happens.

 

[Poohbear]

How do you non-mainstream Christians feel about "church" membership and attendance?

I know the Bible says, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together..." in Hebrews 10:25, but to me, that does NOT mean going to a church building once a week with church members. I feel like this assembling can take place anywhere at anytime.

I also agree with this paragraph below taken from this site http://www.godfire.net/Assembly.html :

Nevertheless, if we used Hebrews 10:25 as a foundation for this study, it would not remain stable. Due of its popularity in the church, and people’s constant misuse of it, is what caused me to cite it in this publication. It is the most often used and abused verse when provoking people to go to ‘church’. It is also used to condemn them for not going. The horrible mind-set for so many is that if a person is a Christian they must attend a ‘church’ of some kind or another. Any ‘church’ will do as long as it carries corporate papers, is sanctioned by mainstream religion, or it is at least a place where people gather on a weekly basis to listen to one person tell his or her view of the Bible. It is in their misguided thinking that everyone has to have a ‘church’ to ‘cover’ them.

Those who do not attend such organized gatherings are suspect in whether they are really Christians or not. They ask, "How could anyone who claims to be a Christian not go to church?" The fact is, they have somewhat of a legitimate question, especially when we consider their perspective. Of course, there is no place in scripture that says the only way a person can be a Christian is to belong to or go to a certain church. Such thoughts are manmade.

 

[Guitarhero]

This is an informational thread for those who may like to voice their beliefs and views, which are not typical of the mainstream. Here are a few and feel free to add more:

1. Salvation is a gift, than can be accepted or rejected at any point in life. Therefore, one is not once saved always saved. John 3:16.

2. Hell translates to the grave in most cases in the Hebrew and Greek. It is not a place that exists in the present, nor where people burn endlessly. The lake of fire will be created in the end and will burn out leaving nothing. Ecclesiastes 9; Revelation 20; Malachi 4:1.

3. The Ten Commandments are for us to follow today - all of them as stated in Exodus. Matthew 5:17-18

4. The Biblical health laws are relevant for us to day and not nailed to the cross as the ordinances (sacrificial and ceremonial law). Leviticus 11; Deuteronomy 14; Colossians 2;

5. Not only those who profess Christianity will be in heaven. Romans 2

I hope this is helpful so that people can gain more exposure to the differing views within Christianity, if necessary, and so that people may ask rather than assume what others believe. Additionally, may all of us be encouraged to keep the faith!

Since this was bumped....some of these opinions are definitely mainstream christianity.

 

[Poohbear]

Since this was bumped....some of these opinions are definitely mainstream christianity.

Really? I was under the impression that #3 would be the only one that divya posted as mainstream. But...

#1 is not mainstream because most Christians believe in the "once saved always saved" doctrine

#2 is not mainstream because most Christians believe Hell is a burning firery place, not a grave

#4 is not mainstream because most Christians eat meat that was considered unclean back in the Old Testament

#5 is not mainstream because alot of Christians believe you do not have to be "necessarily good" to get into Heaven.

 

[Sharpened]

How do you non-mainstream Christians feel about "church" membership and attendance?

I know the Bible says, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together..." in Hebrews 10:25, but to me, that does NOT mean going to a church building once a week with church members. I feel like this assembling can take place anywhere at anytime.

I also agree with this paragraph below taken from this site http://www.godfire.net/Assembly.html :

Nevertheless, if we used Hebrews 10:25 as a foundation for this study, it would not remain stable. Due of its popularity in the church, and people’s constant misuse of it, is what caused me to cite it in this publication. It is the most often used and abused verse when provoking people to go to ‘church’. It is also used to condemn them for not going. The horrible mind-set for so many is that if a person is a Christian they must attend a ‘church’ of some kind or another. Any ‘church’ will do as long as it carries corporate papers, is sanctioned by mainstream religion, or it is at least a place where people gather on a weekly basis to listen to one person tell his or her view of the Bible. It is in their misguided thinking that everyone has to have a ‘church’ to ‘cover’ them.

Those who do not attend such organized gatherings are suspect in whether they are really Christians or not. They ask, "How could anyone who claims to be a Christian not go to church?" The fact is, they have somewhat of a legitimate question, especially when we consider their perspective. Of course, there is no place in scripture that says the only way a person can be a Christian is to belong to or go to a certain church. Such thoughts are manmade.

Here is a different way to look at it: what does the underground church in countries not friendly to this walk do to grow? Answer: they spread themselves out. Once an assembly grows too large, they split up but still fellowship with the old group whenever they get the chance. Isn't that how the early church operated? Shouldn't we do this also? Instead, people in the West have locked themselves into these corporate entities and have become lukewarm by stagnation. Another factor to consider: the larger the institution, the more corrupt it becomes. Corruption and deception has no power until people accept it. The Wall Street Journal posted an article about seeker-friendly churches faltering by their focus on the youth rather than the Body.

There is coming a day when Our Father is going to shake people out of these places so the Gospel can be properly told; that is happening as we speak. I will not apologize for giving encouragement and searching for truth with family, friends, or perfect strangers who crave to talk about Him without any pretext. I have learned more than I have corrected, even from a very wise seven-year-old.

If the Body is forced underground one day, I will be ready for it. Other are not being prepared for this possibility and will fall away as Jesus stated in Matthew 24.

 

[OhmyKimB]

Hmmm...I only eat whatever (and that's not much since I'm more the a little bit picky) is because of Romans 14

Maybe it's the same thing...yo no se.

 

[luthiengirlie]

Wonder

If this is. Like Torah/Messianic vs. Non-Torah Observant. I'm not including Talmud at all. I'm still very much a beginnner in being Torah observant Christian. Observing Shabbat,Dietary Laws and all. But these are inital musings of mine.

 

[Guitarhero]

Really? I was under the impression that #3 would be the only one that divya posted as mainstream. But...

#1 is not mainstream because most Christians believe in the "once saved always saved" doctrine

#2 is not mainstream because most Christians believe Hell is a burning firery place, not a grave

#4 is not mainstream because most Christians eat meat that was considered unclean back in the Old Testament

#5 is not mainstream because alot of Christians believe you do not have to be "necessarily good" to get into Heaven.

My church is mainstream...but then again...it's, well, you know...from which you all derive. But #1...persevere until the end...reason there is confession, #2 (Jewish tradition...there are more than just one meaning/sides to it, many levels of meaning), #4 ...many orthodox/catholic do not eat pork around the world and we don't believe the 10 Commandments are obsolete...linking to confession, #5...definitely mainstream because you can't get to heaven solely by believing you must be good...you actually have to follow the path. That's why we have confession. And of course, nobody says, "are you saved?" Shrugs.

So, it depends upon whom you ask. Most people don't think of catholicism and orthodoxy to be mainstream when they are they largest and original church (yes, I know the first century church...referring to the eucharist and it's true meaning which is what Christ Himself instituted and it's been unchanged eversince).

 

[SND411]

How do you non-mainstream Christians feel about "church" membership and attendance?

I know the Bible says, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together..." in Hebrews 10:25, but to me, that does NOT mean going to a church building once a week with church members. I feel like this assembling can take place anywhere at anytime.

I also agree with this paragraph below taken from this site http://www.godfire.net/Assembly.html :

Nevertheless, if we used Hebrews 10:25 as a foundation for this study, it would not remain stable. Due of its popularity in the church, and people’s constant misuse of it, is what caused me to cite it in this publication. It is the most often used and abused verse when provoking people to go to ‘church’. It is also used to condemn them for not going. The horrible mind-set for so many is that if a person is a Christian they must attend a ‘church’ of some kind or another. Any ‘church’ will do as long as it carries corporate papers, is sanctioned by mainstream religion, or it is at least a place where people gather on a weekly basis to listen to one person tell his or her view of the Bible. It is in their misguided thinking that everyone has to have a ‘church’ to ‘cover’ them.

Those who do not attend such organized gatherings are suspect in whether they are really Christians or not. They ask, "How could anyone who claims to be a Christian not go to church?" The fact is, they have somewhat of a legitimate question, especially when we consider their perspective. Of course, there is no place in scripture that says the only way a person can be a Christian is to belong to or go to a certain church. Such thoughts are manmade.

I agree with this post. As long as you gather in some fashion with fellow believers while doing the work God has sent you out to do, I don't see the problem.

 

[SND411]

I'm not sure I believe in the Trinity as held by the mainstream.

 

[Poohbear]

I'm not sure I believe in the Trinity as held by the mainstream.

I try to see the Trinity like this symbol below (one in essence, not the same). How do you feel about it???

 

[SND411]

I try to see the Trinity like this symbol below (one in essence, not the same). How do you feel about it???

It doesn't make sense to me because Jesus Himself never referred to God in this way. He simply said "God IS Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and Truth." He also said a Spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus had flesh and bones, but describe His body as The Temple; a structure that houses the Spirit of God. So what exactly is God the Father if He isn't a Spirit?

I also feel many people view God the Father as strict/meaner, while Jesus as soft and compassionate. How does that not create a polytheistic mindset?

 

[Guitarhero]

I'm not sure I believe in the Trinity as held by the mainstream.

That's interesting. Which aspect of the Trinity? Holy Spirit, Father or Jesus? You don't find them Divine?

Oh, now reading your last post ( I came in prematurely), I see some of what you're saying. But Jesus also referred to His Father and also that He'd send the Ruakh haKodesh...Holy Spirit to the believers on Pentecost (what became that day known now as Pentecost). Remember the one who asked who would be at God's side in Heaven and Jesus told them they didn't know what they were asking about. I think it's because they didn't understand the 3 persons of the Trinity.

In addition, I believe that it's 3 distinct persons (Elohim) but also denotes a relationship between them. So, do you think Jesus was Divine? I'll be back later to read the responses...

 

[Guitarhero]

I try to see the Trinity like this symbol below (one in essence, not the same). How do you feel about it???

That's what I believe and that's a nice diagram. In the Creed, it's:
_________________________________________________________________
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.........

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
....................
______________________________________________
Boy are these questions good for people to look at what they were taught and what they believe. Sometimes, you just take it for granted that everybody believes the same and is taught the same, but it's not true. What better way than to gather up what you believe and examine everything. But anyhoo, the council of Nicea put into stone this belief as universal for the church in 325...but the beliefs are ancient. It was unified on that day. Interesting.

 

[SND411]

I believe Jesus is God. But like He said, "destroy this Temple and in Three Days I will Raise it up," He was talking about His body. What was the purpose of the Temple? The ultimate indwelling of God. His body housed the Holy Spirit of God, so that His actions, words, power, and personality was/is God, just clothed in human flesh. Because remember, no one can truly see God and live.

Jesus did promise the Holy Spirit to His disciples, but remember He also said in John 14:18
I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Jesus practically tells them that He, Himself, will come again.

When Jesus told them to pray in the Name (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in Acts, the Apostles prayed and performed miracles in Jesus' own name.

Plus did not Jesus say to the Samaritan woman, in John 4:22;
You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

As much as I can recollect, I never knew that the Jews of His day or any other time ever conceived of God as a Trinity.

 

[Poohbear]

It doesn't make sense to me because Jesus Himself never referred to God in this way. He simply said "God IS Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and Truth." He also said a Spirit does not have flesh and bones. Jesus had flesh and bones, but describe His body as The Temple; a structure that houses the Spirit of God. So what exactly is God the Father if He isn't a Spirit?

I also feel many people view God the Father as strict/meaner, while Jesus as soft and compassionate. How does that not create a polytheistic mindset?

You're right about Jesus referring to God as a Spirit. This means that He is not a physical being (human) limited to one space. He is present everywhere and He can be worshipped anywhere, anytime.

I would say that "God the Father" is a spirit... according the the symbol, "God the Father" is not the "Holy Spirit" when it comes to function. God the Father's function is being our heavenly father and Creator and giving us His Son Jesus Christ. God the Holy Spirit's function is being our Comforter and guiding us in our Christian walk.

So yeah, the symbol does seem to be a bit faulty.

I guess the trinity can be seen like this analogy by Sweet C from years ago:

Originally Posted by Sweet C
I think this discussion is quite interesting to say the least. The best way I can think of to really describe the concept of the trinity is using someone as an example. For example, I will use JenJen2721. She is a wife, daughter, and mother. She is not 3 different people, but she is one person functioning in three different ways. How she interacts as a wife is very different than how she interacts as a mother or daughter, but they are all related, b/c they are all apart of who she is. The same thing with God. He operates as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but he is one and the same.

 

[Guitarhero]

As much as I can recollect, I never knew that the Jews of His day or any other time ever conceived of God as a Trinity.

They didn't and it was developed amongst the early believers as they continued to come into the truth. Jesus was the one who introduced to the world the reality of the third person (distinct) of the Trinity. If the HOly Spirit is God, if the Father is God and if Jesus is also God, I humbly ask, what's the problem with the doctrine of the Tri-Une God? Can you further explain??? Incidentally, the nature of Christ was argued over and over again and finally led to heresies. Eutyches was one...not believing that the nature of Jesus was totally Divine but that his human side was dissolved into the Divine, giving Him one nature, in essence, which is not true. His nature remain distinct and separate. But anyhoo....He is a mystery and one which our brains and spirits cannot fully discern. Can anybody truly comprehend all the nature of God? No. And we realize this.

Very interesting discussion!!!

 

[SND411]

But anyhoo....He is a mystery and one which our brains and spirits cannot fully discern. Can anybody truly comprehend all the nature of God? No. And we realize this.

I always get this response from people when I discuss the Trinity. The thing is, I want to know WHO I am worshiping and praying to. Some people tell me not to pray to Jesus but to God the Father. If they are both God, what difference does it make. Even Stephen prayed to Jesus. I do not want to view God as a being with a split personality. I understand that we are human beings with finite minds that cannot possibly comprehend all there is to know about God, but I feel like knowing whether God is triune or singular is pretty important and something we must understand. I mean, even the Bible stated Jesus came so that we can know God. We are the Bride of Christ after all, and who else knows a husband better than his own wife?

 

[SND411]

They didn't and it was developed amongst the early believers as they continued to come into the truth. Jesus was the one who introduced to the world the reality of the third person (distinct) of the Trinity. If the HOly Spirit is God, if the Father is God and if Jesus is also God, I humbly ask, what's the problem with the doctrine of the Tri-Une God? Can you further explain??? Incidentally, the nature of Christ was argued over and over again and finally led to heresies. Eutyches was one...not believing that the nature of Jesus was totally Divine but that his human side was dissolved into the Divine, giving Him one nature, in essence, which is not true. His nature remain distinct and separate. But anyhoo....He is a mystery and one which our brains and spirits cannot fully discern. Can anybody truly comprehend all the nature of God? No. And we realize this.

Very interesting discussion!!!

It is said they didn't know about the Trinity, but it was Jesus Himself who claimed that the Jews of His day knew who they worshiped. How can they not know something so integral? Who other people knew God more than the ones God chose to reveal Himself to?

I believe in Phillipians 2:6. I think that because Jesus came down to Earth as a human being and left His glory, becoming a servant, He purposely addressed God frequently as a seperate entity. Calling Him "My/your Father"" when in reality the whole time He was speaking about Himself. Why do you think He kept on asking His disciples "who did people say He was?"

Jesus said He would not leave us fatherless because He will come to us. Jesus said He personally would raise His Temple, and yet another verse has Jesus indicating that the Father would raise His Temple.