Prosperity Gospel

[Guitarhero]

I'm not stuck on prosperity being about money. Material wealth was previously mentioned. Someone else brought up the fact that ministries require money to function and of course and I'm not disagreeing with that. I likewise don't disagree that God wants and can bless us financially, physically, etc. But the realities are that the majority of the world is poor, not monetarily rich. Many of the world's population suffers from physical illnesses. Are those people any less spiritual or knowledgeable about God? No. But then God can and does bless us all, according to His will. Sometimes where there is lack, it's not been prayed about or not prayed about enough.

All of what you said is true. God does bless according to his will, but sometimes he uses people to carry out those blessing. God's not going to ride down on a white horse and deliver everyone from poverty. That's why it is so important for believers to be prosperous, so they can have the abundance to help other people in bad situations . Part of being is a Christian is about serving and loving the people on earth. Properity does not nesecarily mean wealthy, it means not operating in a lack or living check to check, having an abundance of resources to help others.

As far as health is concern, the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, so exercising and eating well can prevent some illnesses. Why is so bad to make daily confessions about your health. Especially, if you get yearly check-up, eat right, exercise, and avoid premartial sex. Not saying you won't become sick, but you have already planned the seeds of faith over that area in your life. So now you can stand on his promises, rest in his abiding love, and knowing that everything is going to be all right, whether you live or die. The point is you are being active about faith and knowing the depths of God's love.

Confessions of health. Professions toward health? Living or dying, kinda my point. If one obtains wealth and all manner of prosperity such as health, many children etc., but then becomes ill at some point or loses the prosperity, that doesn't mean one lost faith or never had it in the beginning to believe that God would bring it. Jesus loved the poor. He told us the poor would be with us. And I can say that the most humble, loving, caring and godly people I've ever met have been poor, not just in this country. But truly poor according to world standards, not U.S. They love God and are yet poor. Yes, whether for good or bad, it's about receiving God's love and having daily faith. But one may never, may lose, or may even obtain wealth and all manners of prosperity. The movement differs in this belief. And I have to say I've learned a lot in this thread.

 

[maxineshaw]

I don't like prosperity gospel/preaching. I don't think there is anything wrong with preaching about living a good life, but that good life is usually mentioned in material wealth and absent of the Lord-more specifically, His word/commandments. The good life is lived for God and not for the self. I'm not saying people can't enjoy/aren't deserving of material wealth, but "for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" (Matthew 6:21).

Verse 19 and 20 of Matthew 6 are also worth mentioning:
19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal".



Prosperity gospel tends to ignore scriptures such as these.


Another reason I don't like prosperity gospel is because I'm leery of people who always tell me what I want to hear. This is almost always the case with prosperity preachers. It's like their words are all about the self, and they sprinkle a little of God in there to make their preaching seem authentic.

 

[huxtable]

@ the first bolded:

Habakkuk 3 from verse 17:

17Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls:

18Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation.

19The LORD God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments

I'm very much broke for all intensive purposes, but I still effectively spread God's word. Through my life, my words, my actions, they see more and more of God in me each day. I think that goes far beyond what money can do.

Also, I'm not worried at all about having no money. I have faith that God will pull me through, and I know that even if I'm broke forever, He's still God, and He's done more than enough for me, so I don't spend time worrying about it.

**I'm not trying to start a debate or argument, I just want you to see things in a new light. I'm listening too, to everyone's responses, as I have a lot to learn. Discussion amongst believers is very helpful when it's productive**

 

[Crown]

I like this :
http://www.layhands.com/HearGodsVoice.htm
Another example concerns Peter. In Galatians 2:11-14, Paul said that Peter had wrongly separated himself from Gentile Christians because he was swayed by the opinions of other people, and in turn Peter swayed other Jewish Christians to do the same. In this case, an apostle was led astray by the voice of other Christians, and this apostle led other Christians astray! It's easy for us to be deceived, which is why we need to know how to discern what we're hearing from the "voice" of other people (more on this later). All of us have preconceived biases which act as "filters" when we read the Bible, and therefore even your pastor or my pastor can be deceived and teach us things that are incorrect. If an apostle can be deceived then certainly a pastor can too! This is why it's important for each one of us to study the Bible for ourselves and ask God for discernment so that we can recognize the Truth when we see it.
--
Or the lie when we see it.

 

[shinyblackhair]

I like this :
http://www.layhands.com/HearGodsVoice.htm
Another example concerns Peter. In Galatians 2:11-14, Paul said that Peter had wrongly separated himself from Gentile Christians because he was swayed by the opinions of other people, and in turn Peter swayed other Jewish Christians to do the same. In this case, an apostle was led astray by the voice of other Christians, and this apostle led other Christians astray! It's easy for us to be deceived, which is why we need to know how to discern what we're hearing from the "voice" of other people (more on this later). All of us have preconceived biases which act as "filters" when we read the Bible, and therefore even your pastor or my pastor can be deceived and teach us things that are incorrect. If an apostle can be deceived then certainly a pastor can too! This is why it's important for each one of us to study the Bible for ourselves and ask God for discernment so that we can recognize the Truth when we see it.
--
Or the lie when we see it.

Study to show thyself approved. II Tim 2:15

 

[Guitarhero]

It came to me today during the sermon on the gospels where Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him. The sermon was about our faith, our profession and how it is reflected in our lives and if not, then we need to seek out what in fact we truly believe in. The following scriptures came to mind concerning the far-swinging side of prosperity theology. I'm not talking about the concept of God blessing us materially, I'm concerning the discussion with those ministries that put the teaching of personal holiness on the back burner.

Psalms 37:4 Delight yourself in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart.

Psalms 21:2 You have given him his heart's desire, And You have not withheld the request of his lips. Selah.

Psalms 145:19 He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him; He will also hear their cry and will save them.

Isaiah 58:14 Then you will take delight in the LORD, And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."


So, if we delight in Him first, He can and does provide the desires of our hearts that are in alignment with His will. His will is never that we separate ourselves from Him. If we are grounded towards God first, He blesses above and beyond, but we have to look to the reason we're here in the first place.

 

[dr.j]

This is an interesting and stimulating discussion.

Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, whom he believed --- the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

The posperity gospel and Word of Faith preachers use this verse as rationale, however if you look at the full verse, this verse is about God's character. It is not talking about what we are able to do. God calls things that are not as though they were.

 

[Do_Si_Dos]

I'm not stuck on prosperity being about money. Material wealth was previously mentioned. Someone else brought up the fact that ministries require money to function and of course and I'm not disagreeing with that. I likewise don't disagree that God wants and can bless us financially, physically, etc. But the realities are that the majority of the world is poor, not monetarily rich. Many of the world's population suffers from physical illnesses. Are those people any less spiritual or knowledgeable about God? No. But then God can and does bless us all, according to His will. Sometimes where there is lack, it's not been prayed about or not prayed about enough.

Confessions of health. Professions toward health? Living or dying, kinda my point. If one obtains wealth and all manner of prosperity such as health, many children etc., but then becomes ill at some point or loses the prosperity, that doesn't mean one lost faith or never had it in the beginning to believe that God would bring it. Jesus loved the poor. He told us the poor would be with us. And I can say that the most humble, loving, caring and godly people I've ever met have been poor, not just in this country. But truly poor according to world standards, not U.S. They love God and are yet poor. Yes, whether for good or bad, it's about receiving God's love and having daily faith. But one may never, may lose, or may even obtain wealth and all manners of prosperity. The movement differs in this belief. And I have to say I've learned a lot in this thread.

This statement is true, only if you fear death. Why can't dying be seen as God relieving you from your suffering. Isn't eternal life the point, so is dying losing or is dying winning? This person has achieved the ultimate goal. Being rich does not equal sin, it equals a greater level responsiblity.

I make daily statements based on his promises or quote scriptures directly from the bible, in order to help me stay faith and maintain an attitude of peace. When the enemy attacks an area of my life, I want to operate in the spirit, not in the flesh. So I confess to him daily that my flesh is weak and his grace is needed in all of my areas. That's my relationship with God, it helps me to die daily, submit to his will, and remember that whatever happens in life, it will be ok.

 

[gn1g]

I think the church has gone waaaaay over board in preaching this message and is grossly out of balance. I've watched this prosperity gospel ramp up starting with Leroy Thompson and catch-on like wild fire spreading all over the world. Now all the pastors have huge mansions fancy cars and all the niceties. We are in the earth for a moment this life is temporary.


GOD IS CONCERNED ABOUT SOULS! and pastors should be.

But as I finished typing this I felt the Lord say "FAITH" and that is "Without faith it is impossible to please Him." so maybe the prosperity message is a type of faith. hmmm. I will listen

 

[Guitarhero]

Someone brought up the point that those denominational churches aren't religious. What does this mean? A set certain dogma (but isn't christianity?) or doctrine and practice? I'm wondering if those churches are considered outside traditional christianity because isn't it a religion? Are they mainstream?? Anyone can respond because I actually need this information for someone.

 

[Laela]

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[Laela]

------------------------

 

[Guitarhero]

This statement is true, only if you fear death. Why can't dying be seen as God relieving you from your suffering. Isn't eternal life the point, so is dying losing or is dying winning? This person has achieved the ultimate goal. Being rich does not equal sin, it equals a greater level responsiblity.

I make daily statements based on his promises or quote scriptures directly from the bible, in order to help me stay faith and maintain an attitude of peace. When the enemy attacks an area of my life, I want to operate in the spirit, not in the flesh. So I confess to him daily that my flesh is weak and his grace is needed in all of my areas. That's my relationship with God, it helps me to die daily, submit to his will, and remember that whatever happens in life, it will be ok.

It absolutely could be. My response means Christ, whether I am granted life or illness leading to death. Faith is central.

 

[Guitarhero]

ANY church.

So going it alone is a better stance? How would one know if his discernment is off? He would seek answers solely between him and God and not exactly as God designed it, a community support system. Not that we don't often go directly to God for answers and not that we shouldn't listen to the voice of God in our hearts, but we generally base answers upon scripture and our community (teachers). What if we don't have His will but an answer not by His inispiration? Imma think about it.

 

[Crown]

The prosperity gospel in the real has nothing in common with the being prosperous teaching (from inside to outside) of the Bible.

Humility and faith : yes.
Manipulation and exploitation by a Pastor : no.

I know some Christians paying tithes, offerings, and giving sometimes their entire pay check, indebted to be able to eat or to take the bus – not being able to pay for child’s school because they gave the money to the rich Pastor, and I could say more…

Maybe I don’t understand, and maybe there is an exception.
But, is it the Gospel?

\Well, you need to hear about money, because you ain't gonna have no love and joy and peace until you get some money!/; (TBN, July 20, 1999)

\I'm telling you, Jesus wasn't poor, and He didn't wear no rags, either; like we march in on these Easter little plays that we do at our church, with those raggedy sheets on. Jesus didn't have no rags on. He wore designer clothes, honey!/
(Creflo Dollar Crusade, February 9, 1999)

\Break out of that old $2.50 offering, you get to get into that savings account and give something that's precious to you." / "Somebody might say, 'Well, I don't believe it.' Well, you probably wouldn't with your broke self." / What's the gospel to the poor? It is prosperity!/ (TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)

\The apostles were business men; they were rich men; had plenty of money. I'm going to show you that Jesus was a wealthy man; had plenty of money. (Ever Increasing Faith/ TBN, November 23, 1990)

\Jesus was not poor...Jesus had a nice house! John 1:38 says that Jesus turned to those that were following him and said, 'Come with me.' And they said, 'Where dwellest thou?' He said, 'Come and see.' And Jesus took that whole crowd home with Him to stay in His House. That meant it was a big house! Jesus wore fine clothes! John 19:23 says, 'He had a seamless robe.' Roman soldiers gambled for it at the foot of the cross. It was a designer original! It was valuable enough for them to want it! And then there are Christians that have a poverty complex that says, 'Well, I feel guilty about having nice things.' Jesus didn't!/ (Praise-A-Thon, TBN, November 5, 2004)

\Cash is king! The hundred fold works. 'If I give $50 you mean God will give me $5,000?' Yes! If you give $1000 in the offering this morning, will God give you $100,000 by tomorrow? Yes!/ (The Choke Hold", The Church Channel, January 24, 2004)

\The more you give the more protection you will have for tomorrow. God will spare you if you sow today./ (TBN, April 1, 2004)
........
http://www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_019.htm
http://www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_020.htm

 

[Guitarhero]

It is possible to be misguided by this scripture.
A person's faith wavers only if they don't have the level of faith to receive. This is why it's important for us to spend time in the Word, so God's written Word speaks directly to us (Rhema Word)

In John 8:28: "Jesus therefore said, 'When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me"

Again, Jesus says in John 14:10
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

That's Jesus speaking as a human, not as God. Of course man of his own ability cannot speak anything into being, but Jesus came in the flesh so that we can -- through him.

When we accept Jesus, we receive God's DNA (Holy Spirit). We get the ability (through spiritual gifts) to operate the way Jesus did when he was on earth. Jesus came to TEACH us. He taught us to pray, to Our Father, who is in Heaven. He taught us to lay hands so the sick is healed, to recognize demons and to cast them out, etc. It takes great faith to see a sick person well.

Matthew: 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

God has given us each a measure of faith (Romans 12:1-8) and we are also warned that we should not think more highly of ourselves than we ought to in this passage; so humility is important to God.

But to say we have God living in us, and not operate in any level of Faith is to live a life of unbelief. That's not us trying to BE God, but us trying to be more like Him...

I, too, believe that people can be misguided by their reading of scripture.
I see Jesus speaking from His divinity, not humanity with that statement. He was showing them that He was the fulfillment and that "I AM THAT I AM," which is what God's name was throughout Jewish history. He was demonstrating that He is part of the God-head (from a christian perspective). Afterall, Jews were taught in scripture that God is One and has no physical form.


Now, this is where I beg to differ. I've never heard anyone say we receive God's dna upon belief in Jesus. The Holy Spirit is just that, a person of the godhead, but Spirit, not flesh. But I understand you to be saying that He gives us authority through His Name to perform miracles and such. That, I agree with, it's scriptural. But all is according to His will. He sometimes refuses to heal a person because it's not His will because their suffering might be more valuable. There are many people of great faith and they have not been healed or prospered materially. I'm sure they have been prospered spiritually.

Paul's thorn in his flesh? Not healed. He is one of Jesus' beloved apostles, His great friend. Does it mean they lacked the faith necessary to be healed? I don't believe so. My point is not that God cannot heal and prosper us, but that He sometimes has other plans in mind. I believe in His great blessings because I've seen them. Absolute miracles! Buuuttt, there is a lot of difference between tricking desperate innocent and bible-believing people into giving money to get a miracle. These are two distinct types of prosperity "gospel" I meant to address. Not sure about the OP, but it seems she was directing her message towards the extreme end of it.

 

[Laela]

-------------------

 

[Guitarhero]

The prosperity gospel in the real has nothing in common with the being prosperous teaching (from inside to outside) of the Bible.

Humility and faith : yes.
Manipulation and exploitation by a Pastor : no.

I know some Christians paying tithes, offerings, and giving sometimes their entire pay check, indebted to be able to eat or to take the bus – not being able to pay for child’s school because they gave the money to the rich Pastor, and I could say more…

Maybe I don’t understand, and maybe there is an exception.
But, is it the Gospel?

\Well, you need to hear about money, because you ain't gonna have no love and joy and peace until you get some money!/; (TBN, July 20, 1999)

\I'm telling you, Jesus wasn't poor, and He didn't wear no rags, either; like we march in on these Easter little plays that we do at our church, with those raggedy sheets on. Jesus didn't have no rags on. He wore designer clothes, honey!/
(Creflo Dollar Crusade, February 9, 1999)

\Break out of that old $2.50 offering, you get to get into that savings account and give something that's precious to you." / "Somebody might say, 'Well, I don't believe it.' Well, you probably wouldn't with your broke self." / What's the gospel to the poor? It is prosperity!/ (TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)

\The apostles were business men; they were rich men; had plenty of money. I'm going to show you that Jesus was a wealthy man; had plenty of money. (Ever Increasing Faith/ TBN, November 23, 1990)

\Jesus was not poor...Jesus had a nice house! John 1:38 says that Jesus turned to those that were following him and said, 'Come with me.' And they said, 'Where dwellest thou?' He said, 'Come and see.' And Jesus took that whole crowd home with Him to stay in His House. That meant it was a big house! Jesus wore fine clothes! John 19:23 says, 'He had a seamless robe.' Roman soldiers gambled for it at the foot of the cross. It was a designer original! It was valuable enough for them to want it! And then there are Christians that have a poverty complex that says, 'Well, I feel guilty about having nice things.' Jesus didn't!/ (Praise-A-Thon, TBN, November 5, 2004)

\Cash is king! The hundred fold works. 'If I give $50 you mean God will give me $5,000?' Yes! If you give $1000 in the offering this morning, will God give you $100,000 by tomorrow? Yes!/ (The Choke Hold", The Church Channel, January 24, 2004)

\The more you give the more protection you will have for tomorrow. God will spare you if you sow today./ (TBN, April 1, 2004)
........
http://www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_019.htm
http://www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_020.htm

Thank you for those links. I'll pass them on. I hate to say it but Juanita Bynum and Benny Hinn come to mind. We all can have horrid ends to relationships we thought were from the hand of God and I'm not downing any people who've had divorces, but just look at their lives. But??????

 

[Laela]

There are a gazillion sites like this... what's your point?

What do YOU believe?

The prosperity gospel in the real has nothing in common with the being prosperous teaching (from inside to outside) of the Bible.

Humility and faith : yes.
Manipulation and exploitation by a Pastor : no.

I know some Christians paying tithes, offerings, and giving sometimes their entire pay check, indebted to be able to eat or to take the bus – not being able to pay for child’s school because they gave the money to the rich Pastor, and I could say more…

Maybe I don’t understand, and maybe there is an exception.
But, is it the Gospel?

\Well, you need to hear about money, because you ain't gonna have no love and joy and peace until you get some money!/; (TBN, July 20, 1999)

\I'm telling you, Jesus wasn't poor, and He didn't wear no rags, either; like we march in on these Easter little plays that we do at our church, with those raggedy sheets on. Jesus didn't have no rags on. He wore designer clothes, honey!/
(Creflo Dollar Crusade, February 9, 1999)

\Break out of that old $2.50 offering, you get to get into that savings account and give something that's precious to you." / "Somebody might say, 'Well, I don't believe it.' Well, you probably wouldn't with your broke self." / What's the gospel to the poor? It is prosperity!/ (TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)

\The apostles were business men; they were rich men; had plenty of money. I'm going to show you that Jesus was a wealthy man; had plenty of money. (Ever Increasing Faith/ TBN, November 23, 1990)

\Jesus was not poor...Jesus had a nice house! John 1:38 says that Jesus turned to those that were following him and said, 'Come with me.' And they said, 'Where dwellest thou?' He said, 'Come and see.' And Jesus took that whole crowd home with Him to stay in His House. That meant it was a big house! Jesus wore fine clothes! John 19:23 says, 'He had a seamless robe.' Roman soldiers gambled for it at the foot of the cross. It was a designer original! It was valuable enough for them to want it! And then there are Christians that have a poverty complex that says, 'Well, I feel guilty about having nice things.' Jesus didn't!/ (Praise-A-Thon, TBN, November 5, 2004)

\Cash is king! The hundred fold works. 'If I give $50 you mean God will give me $5,000?' Yes! If you give $1000 in the offering this morning, will God give you $100,000 by tomorrow? Yes!/ (The Choke Hold", The Church Channel, January 24, 2004)

\The more you give the more protection you will have for tomorrow. God will spare you if you sow today./ (TBN, April 1, 2004)
........
http://www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_019.htm
http://www.victorstephens.com/victorstephenswebsite_020.htm

 

[Guitarhero]

Did you read my response today on Religion vs. Relationship?


Ultimately your salvation is in YOUR hands...it's not the responsibility of your church, or your pastor. We're connected to a 'church' to be connected to a vision and to serve the community, to live out what God calls us to do and to be fed the Word. But in the end, what we do with the Word (seed) we're fed is our individual responsibility. The attitude shouldn't be what the church can do for us, but what we can do for the church.


That's not going at it alone... God does says that we must not "forsake the assembly" ... it's a dictate that I honor.

On Judgment Day, I stand before God alone.

We can point fingers all day at different churches, teachers and ministers -- and even lump all the bad with the good and accuse Men and Women of God of being false teachers. But I tell you what, there has never been a time God was never God.

Not yet, I'll read it shortly. Thank you for clarification. Pointing fingers is one thing, but holding them accountable is another. We're not judging them, we're holding them to accountability as supposed teachers of the truth. Once someone starts changing scripture to reflect an unorthodox theology, the sirens need to come on. That's my point.

 

[Crown]

There are a gazillion sites like this... what's your point?

What do YOU believe?

Sorry, I don't understand your questions.

I believe in the Bible, this is one Bible, and one Spirit. But being humans, we have many interpretations.

Don't take it as personal, I am talking about the subject of this thread : the prosperity gospel, not about gazillion sites. And I said : The prosperity gospel in the real has nothing in common with the being prosperous teaching (from inside to outside) of the Bible. This is what I believe. And I gave examples.

Blessing.

 

[Laela]

---------------

 

[Laela]

---------------------

 

[aymone]

Dear Laela, I can really tell that you love the Word but I think what the other sisters are saying here is that many preachers abuse it not only monetarily but also sexually. However, to the others such CreoleNat, you do have a point but I think that we need to pray for these people and everyone is responsible for reading their Bibles and asking God for understanding.

I do believe the Lord wants us to be prosper and I do believe in reaping what you sow. For example in 2008 I got a job such so that I could pay my tithes and give offerings everywhere I felt touched so I could put this "prosperity gospel" at work if you will. Well, I did not just give to my church but I gave every where I could. I did not give because someone made me but I wanted to see His Glory. I did it with the heart of a child, it was fun and even days when I did not have money I was sad. Well a year later and even this year, I'm still reaping and something Laela can agree with I hope from the Bible is that I am reaping were I didn't sow.

My point is Christians have to be generous beings whether you give in the church, a non for profit, you share your christmas gifts, you buy groceries for a needy family. Because by taking care of the kingdom of God, not just the church, but like Jesus said, the children and the widows, you are sowing in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Prosperity Gospel is sometimes fun to listen to but you should ask God: How o you want me to so into you kingdom and not care so much about the pastors, etc. But you want to make sure that when you die you not only have eternal life but that Jesus can say "well done my faithful daughter or son".

We are all call to grow in the Lord and also pray for others to grow and stay strong. I can say that one reason why David was so loved by God is that he had respect for those appointed by God even when they were flawed. He could have killed Saul in self defense, but he knew that God said do not touch my anointed.

We should all be careful in pronouncing judgements against any servant of God, I used to do that but they are consequences. Just pray for them and anyone else you know who needs it.

God bless all of you guys.

 

[Guitarhero]

Ahhhh.... well, this is really why we must be careful with the traditions of men...Jesus was very clear on measuring anything by what is orthodox ...

I see where this argument is going and I'll stop here... we're starting to debate God's Word and it seems you're measuring all churches by the standard of the Catholic Church. I don't do religion, NatCreole.

Be blessed.

Excuse me? Did I once say this? I'm not mad, I just never mentioned any denomination, I mentioned orthodoxy in christianity meaning, the gospel as worded in scripture. Just to clarify, belief in the Messiah, the resurrection of the dead, the death and resurrection of Jesus, etc. and tenets of the faith that make it christianity are orthodox beliefs of the religion. It is a religion. Just believing in him, yes, that can be a relationhip. But if He says to get baptised, to help the poor, to do anything He prescribed in scripture, that's where you do what He says to do.

What we're discussing here is not any attack on anyone else's hopes for healing and prosperity. I pray daily for these myself. Sigh. Seems I've hit a sensitive spot that has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. I mean, I don't get it. No one here, as far as I can see, if against God richly blessing His flock.

 

[Guitarhero]

Dear Laela, I can really tell that you love the Word but I think what the other sisters are saying here is that many preachers abuse it not only monetarily but also sexually. However, to the others such CreoleNat, you do have a point but I think that we need to pray for these people and everyone is responsible for reading their Bibles and asking God for understanding.

We should all be careful in pronouncing judgements against any servant of God, I used to do that but they are consequences. Just pray for them and anyone else you know who needs it.

God bless all of you guys.

I never said any different. Seriously though, when does discussion of a subject become an attack when people have applied scripture and are attempting to figure out how this aberration of mainstream and accepted traditional theology for all christendom has come into being AND, in light of these pastors' behavior, they are suspect of distorting the holy word of God? Who are they serving? God doesn't call us to just pray for people in danger, He calls us to hold fast to His word and remove ourselves from it. I do not ever believe in sitting back and becoming the victim of a pastor just because he/she is a pastor. I have known of people who would condemn the flock for leaving the ministry, telling them they are wrong to differ and that they will reap death. Abusive? Oh, yes. I know of such.

Matt. 18:6 -- “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.”

Mark 9:42 -- "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.”

 

[aymone]

I am not saying that pastors, deacons, followers, etc do not abuse the word sometimes but when this occurs I think they should be prayed for, that's all I'm saying because no one is perfect.

 

[Laela]

Aymone,

Thanks for your posts.

We all should pray for one another and be careful, for we are ALL members of the Body. Since this is a thread about "prosperity" teachers, it's been established and very clear that this alleged "abuse" is being directed toward them. And I have yet to see anyone substantiate their claim that these are false teachers. We all interpret Scriptures differently, does that truly make one a wolf in sheep clothing?

I looked back at the links that Crown posted.... and what bothers me about all this is this author (Victor Stephens) has taken snippets of what these preachers have said in various sermons, spoken in their own voices -- some with humor -- and taken what they say way out of context. This author pretty much has done the very thing he is accusing those preachers of doing with God's Word.


Listen to the entire sermon

I am not saying that pastors, deacons, followers, etc do not abuse the word sometimes but when this occurs I think they should be prayed for, that's all I'm saying because no one is perfect.

 

[Ladybelle]

I'm very much broke for all intensive purposes, but I still effectively spread God's word. Through my life, my words, my actions, they see more and more of God in me each day. I think that goes far beyond what money can do.

Also, I'm not worried at all about having no money. I have faith that God will pull me through, and I know that even if I'm broke forever, He's still God, and He's done more than enough for me, so I don't spend time worrying about it.

**I'm not trying to start a debate or argument, I just want you to see things in a new light. I'm listening too, to everyone's responses, as I have a lot to learn. Discussion amongst believers is very helpful when it's productive**

I think there were some very interesting & insightful comments in this thread and it further illustrates why we are instructed to "Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge" (Romans 3:4)

There are plenty of false doctrines out there, hence the extreme importance that we as believers seek the truth (God's word) for ourselves and know how to apply it to our lives.

I personally, don't believe that being broke until God calls me home is God's plan for me because I believe that he came to give me life & life more abundantly. And, that he became poor so that I might be rich & of course, riches supersede material things.

 

[Guitarhero]

"So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge" (Romans 3:4)

THIS! Some of us have not only listened to some of this false doctrine, but we've been involved in their churches and thus have the experience. I am very thankful I turned away from it.







Whether someone attempts to call me a hypocrite or not by highlighting Mark 7 scripture, well it just might double back.