Abortion Question

Excellent thoughts! Especially the bolded part. But it's sad when some women do not feel any remorse for getting an abortion...

I do have a question... does our tax dollars really go toward paying for abortions? :confused: How do you all know? I thought the women who get the abortions are the ones paying for it.
Hi Poohbear :kiss: Happy Thanksgiving to you and your loved ones...:heart3:

As for our tax dollars, we pay for abortions in several ways...

* There are many women on medical assistance and the abortion rate is very high among this population of women. Our tax money pays for medical assistance.

* We pay the salaries for those who legislate abortion rights. Our tax dollars pay their salaries.

* The government pays for many of the abortion clinics and supplies. Our tax dollars go towards these expenses.

* A lot of scientific research is done with aborted fetuses (this makes me cry; it just scares me). Our government uses our tax dollars for these experiments as well.

Did you know that the collagen from aborted fetuses was (and may still be) used in many cosmetics? I have to research what I use more carefully that whatever collagen products I use has either vegetable or animal collagen. It's a challenge for it's not often noted on all products.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collagen

"Recently an alternative to animal-derived collagen has become available. Although expensive, this human collagen, derived from donor cadavers, placentas and aborted fetuses,[5] may minimize the possibility of immune reactions."

Warning, this site below is very hard to read...Yet we pay for this with our tax dollars... :nono::nono::nono:.

http://www.ourchurch.com/view/?pageID=214839

There are other resources that confirm this use of aborted fetuses, but I don't want post them. It's just too sad to read these reports. While we need to be informed, it's not easy to read emotionally and I don't want to upset anyone any further with saddness. :nono:

This was never my intent in this thread to shed guilt, judgement, or condemnation towards anyone. And I am so sorry for those who are offended and/or hurt. It's just that Abortion goes further than we realize and this is just why I feel so strongly against 'legalized' abortion.

We just can't pass this off as 'free choice' or 'pro choice', for it says, we are looking the 'other way'. It's not about legislating morality; morality is non-existant with this. It's heinous, a legalized heinous crime. :nono::nono::nono:

God bless you everyone...I really mean it with all of my heart. I really do.
 
I did a quick Google search....

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/public_funding.html

Medicaid Spending
Medicaid is the largest form of aid to the states from the federal government, comprising 43% of all federal grants.5 As the national economy has worsened, state tax revenue has lessened and health care costs have continued to rise. This resulted in more people eligible for Medicaid.6 This has placed pressure on states to control Medicaid costs, typically the second-largest budget expenditure.7 The federal government is also looking at scaling back Medicaid funding, and the Bush administration has proposed to reduce Medicaid spending by $35 billion over the next ten years. These cuts will especially impact women.

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The Hyde Amendment
After Roe v. Wade decriminalized abortion in 1973, Medicaid covered abortion care without restriction. In 1976, Representative Henry Hyde (R-IL) introduced an amendment that later passed to limit federal funding for abortion care. Effective in 1977, this provision, known as the Hyde Amendment, specifies what abortion services are covered under Medicaid.
Over the past two decades, Congress has debated the limited circumstances under which federal funding for abortion should be allowed. For a brief period of time, coverage included cases of rape, incest, life endangerment, and physical health damage to the woman. However, beginning in 1979, the physical health exception was excluded, and in 1981 rape and incest exceptions were also excluded.
In September 1993, Congress rewrote the provision to include Medicaid funding for abortions in cases where the pregnancy resulted from rape or incest. The present version of the Hyde Amendment requires coverage of abortion in cases of rape, incest, and life endangerment.

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Challenges to Hyde
The first challenges to the Hyde Amendment came shortly after its implementation. The Supreme Court has held that the Hyde Amendment restrictions are constitutional8 and that states participating in Medicaid are only required to cover abortion services for which they receive federal funding rather than all medically necessary abortions.9 Challenges under state constitutions have been more successful. Several lawsuits have been brought in individual states arguing that state constitutions afford greater protection for privacy and equal protection than the federal Constitution.10

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Implementation of the Hyde Amendment
The Hyde Amendment affects only federal spending. States are free to use their own funds to cover additional abortion services. For example, Hawaii, New York, and Washington have enacted laws funding abortions for health reasons. Other states, such as Maryland, cover abortions for women whose pregnancies are affected by fetal abnormalities or present serious health risks. These expansions are important steps toward ensuring equal access to health care for all women.
Prior to the 1993 expansion of the Hyde Amendment, thirty states chose not to use their own Medicaid funds to cover abortions for pregnancies resulting from rape or incest.11 Initially, a number of states expressed resistance to comply with the expanded Hyde Amendment, and presently thirteen states are under court orders to comply and cover rape and incest in addition to life endangerment.12 Every court that has considered the Hyde Amendment's application to a state's Medicaid program since 1993 has held that states continuing to participate in the Medicaid program must cover abortions resulting from rape or incest in order to be compliant with the Hyde Amendment, regardless of state laws that may be more restrictive.


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State Funding for Abortion under Medicaid​

Funding under Hyde Amendment Only: Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, District of Columbia, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Vermont, and Wyoming.

Hyde Amendment and Additional Health Circumstances: Indiana (physical health), Iowa (fetal abnormality), Mississippi (fetal abnormality), Utah (physical health and fetal abnormality), Virginia (fetal abnormality), and Wisconsin (physical health).
All or Most Health Circumstances: Alaska, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Montana, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Vermont, Washington, and West Virginia.

Noncompliant with the Hyde Amendment: South Dakota (life endangerment only).


I'd like to say here that the abortion issue is so complex, sensitive. I believe that (most) women who decide to have an abortion are going through serious turmoil about it. I think that when a woman is desperate enough to abort, that they will go to any means to do so, even risking her life. Public funding abortions would seem to be a way for women to reduce her risk because it is done as a formal medical procedure versus a horrible back-alley clothes hanger situation. I don't want to see a woman risk her life (or the baby's life) like that.

I hope a Solomon-type solution emerges quickly....
This is excellent RR, :up: You are sharing facts while although I'm sharing facts, mine are mixed with emotion. I'm so glad you're here to bring in the much needed balance.

I hope you understand what I mean by this. What I'm trying to say is that I appreciate your level headed take on this. I'm coming from a 'mommie' perspective. You've coming in with ways for others to judge for themselves. Excellent format... :yep:

((( hugs )))
 
you didn't even address my other examples of SIN not being punishable by MAN's LAW. Not suprised. Because you cannot reconcile Man's Law with God's law.

And No, YOU disagree with God. You disagree with God's gift of free choice. God never intended for us to live in a sinful world. But yet we are here. Why? Because he gave Adam and Eve and you and I FREE CHOICE. There will be consequences for sin on this earth and at judgement. You cannot exact God's punishment. All you and this government can give is what you deem is a acceptable punishment. What is it? Two years, 5 years in jail, the death penalty? Whatever it is, it is not God's judgement. It is only Man's. This is not equal to God's judgement.

And once again you a wrong! I do believe that it is a baby. I also believe a sin is abomonation to God but I refuse to let a SECULAR government take the place of GOD. The United States is not biblical ISRAEL. This country cannot be trusted to enforce GOD's laws. The best a secular government can do is regulate laws between man NOT between man and GOD. And even that it is not doing well.

You give government the right to enforce your beliefs, don't be surprised when one day THEIR beliefs will be forced on you
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Amen sistah, Amen!!!
 
I agree with your post and I want to tell you that it is also beautifully written. :giveheart:

Hear me when I say, that people do have a right to choose. And we are to live by example.

Yet the laws are still wrong for they legalize murder. We have a generation who could care less about how we as Christians live by example. The laws of this land have been changed in total opposition to what God commands.

There's no such thing as the beautiful intent of sexual love between a man and a woman. Homosexuality has the law behind them; daring us and threatening us as Christians to even dare to speak against them, least we receive the penality.

Hear me, I know what you are sharing regarding free choice; yet it's over riding OUR free choice as God's chosen. And we cannot allow these laws to be; we simply cannot.

Legalized abortion was only the stargate and the open path to what we see occuring with gay marriages, gay rights, and the like. How so? If they dare to get by with that law, they dare to move on with another which opposes God's order and the path will continue which leads us to destruction.

People do not want to feel 'bad' or responsible for what they do wrong. So now laws are being 'imposed' (yes imposed) upon us to make it easier and easier for one to feel right about committing illegal offenses and other sins.

There has to be a standard. Do you even realize how many Christians who are taking full liberties with legalized abortion? The right to be gay? Churches who have compromised and have given in only to be the 'quote' 'loving example'.

It's not about free choice here. Neither is it forcing our beliefs upon anyone. This mess is affecting our children who live with us and whom we take to Church with us and live with our example and yet the law tells them it's okay to disobey and to totally disregard what they're being taught by us. Our children are being taught more by the world's example than ours. The world's influence is having their rule.

Having abortion laws restored to its original law of being a penalty is not taking away one's free choice. It's teaching this world that you cannot come against the natural order of things. It's teaches that you cannot be careless and committ a murder to justify it. One can still choose, but there is a penality for it. You cannot kill an innocent baby. Sin doesn't win.

What is it about abortion that it needs to be legalized? Sometimes I think Christians use the 'freedom of Choice' catch phrase as a 'Trump card', meaning that they may need this abortion law to remain 'free' in case they may need it. It's the same out for them as it is for the world.

Why not just legalize all crime and be done with all the courts, legal system, and the jails. Afterall, it's all about freedom of choice; so let everyone have their freedom and enjoy it. Bottomline, this can't happen and neither should it be that way with abortion. It's as wrong as these other offenses, if not worse.

Abortion needs to go back to being illegal.

Again divya, your post is beautifully shared. It really is. :yep: I hope that I'm not offending you for it is not my intent at all. You take care angel. I wish you and your family a wonderful and happy Thanksgiving. :love3:

I agree with much about what you have said and understand your points. So of course, you are not offending me. I respect your conviction.

The freedom of choice issue is the main point at which we differ. I believe everything has to do with freedom of choice - that it always has and always will. From the fall of Lucifer from heaven, choosing to attempt to exalt himself as high as Christ - where God allowed him to make the choice - to our opportunity to choose to live for Christ or not. As Christians, we do have a standard by which we should live. However, we cannot impose that upon others or even those of us who choose to carry the title “Christian” but do otherwise. It’s true that people do not want to be responsible for their actions these days and it is both disgusting as sad. But it is not God’s intention for His creations to be forced to follow him. Again, He wants us to choose to live right because we love Him.

The law allow the right to choose is not overriding our free choice, because we are not forced to have abortions. When it comes to our children, the Bible instructs us to train our children in the way that they should live. It is our responsibility to make sure that our children are equipped with the spiritual knowledge and understanding so that they make the right decisions in their lives, regardless of what the rest of the world may believe. We must remember that the Holy Spirit will give them discernment.

Further, this issue and others involve extremely important issue of religious freedom. If abortion is restricted because a number of people believe that the woman should not have the choice based on their own religious beliefs, regardless of the fact that many others disagree (including certain Christian denominations), then the government has crossed the line and is upholding the religious beliefs of some over others. How far can this go? Then the government may then believe it has the authority to determine whether homosexual relationships are wrong or not and rule on that, another largely religious issue. What’s next? Telling us what other religious doctrines we should or shouldn’t teach or preach? We may believe that abortion is wrong however, we simply should not allow the law to determine what is right or wrong for us. Allowing the government to make these choices for people - abortion, homosexuality etc - blurs the line between church and state. The Bible itself maintains that this separation should stand.

I agree with you that sin doesn't win but that is the truth regardless of the laws. People still have choice to commit a crime, just as though a woman still should have a choice of whether or not to commit an abortion. But "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord." People get away with all kinds of things here on earth, but God is the final judge. Personally, I rest assured that God is in control.

Happy Thanksgiving!
 
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This baby is a separate life and separate body and separate rights from hers and she has no right to take these rights away from this life growing inside of her. This foolishness about Pro Choice is just that, foolishness.

Christians are not the only persons who believe this. Jews, Muslims, Indians, Asians, actually all cultures believe that abortion is murder and do not support it, neither do they cover it up with 'free or pro choice' foolishness. They call it what is, a crime. But in every culture and/or faith, there will always be those who falter and go astray. Why? To keep from taking responsibilty for what they know to be wrong.

I've just had it with this foolishness in our government and this country's weak mindset, that's all.

Anyhoo.........

((( Hugs ))) back to you "RR" from your previous post.

Happy Loving and joyful Thanksgiving to you and your loved ones. :love3:

____________

I logged in the other day ONLY to answer a PM; low and behold this thread pulled me in. I'm supposed to be cleaning my house for this holiday weekend. Oh well...:rolleyes:

I wish EVERYONE a very loving and happy Thankgiving holiday. Be safe, be loved and be happy. :love3:

I have to address certain statements in your post. There are Christians who are pro-choice and who are pro-life. Please do not speak for all of Christianity. The same goes for Judaism. Which Indians are you referring to? Not all Indians are part of the same religion. Asians are a broad group, that is made up of many cultures and religious persuasions. Your statement is not true in regards to either of these groups.

You may believe that those who are pro-choice are those who have gone astray but I contend that those who are anti-choice are missing the bigger picture. It is judgmental and false to assume that people who are pro-choice are such to keep from taking responsibility for what is wrong This is an issue of letting people choose right or wrong for themselves.

Let me ask you, what exactly does someone like me need to take responsibility for? I've never had an abortion and am against getting one. Has everyone who is pro-choice had an abortion? Absolutely not. There are many of us who are pro-life personally but support choice for others. Why is it that many of those who are against choice refuse to acknowledge this fact and continue to pass judgment on others and make sweeping assumptions regarding those who believe differently on this issue of choice?

I believe in this verse in its entirety:
And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. Joshua 24:15
 
I have to address certain statements in your post. There are Christians who are pro-choice and who are pro-life. Please do not speak for all of Christianity. The same goes for Judaism. Which Indians are you referring to? Not all Indians are part of the same religion. Asians are a broad group, that is made up of many cultures and religious persuasions. Your statement is not true in regards to either of these groups.

You may believe that those who are pro-choice are those who have gone astray but I contend that those who are anti-choice are missing the bigger picture. It is judgmental and false to assume that people who are pro-choice are such to keep from taking responsibility for what is wrong This is an issue of letting people choose right or wrong for themselves.

Let me ask you, what exactly does someone like me need to take responsibility for? I've never had an abortion and am against getting one. Has everyone who is pro-choice had an abortion? Absolutely not. There are many of us who are pro-life personally but support choice for others. Why is it that many of those who are against choice refuse to acknowledge this fact and continue to pass judgment on others and make sweeping assumptions regarding those who believe differently on this issue of choice?

I believe in this verse in its entirety:
And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. Joshua 24:15

You said: "There are many of us who are pro-life personally but support choice for others".... I had to roll this sentence around my brain....

Would you agree that that sentence can apply to ANYTHING in life... from gun control to schooling to smoking to using chemicals on your hair to plastic surgery to so on and so on and so on?

Example: I don't smoke, but does "pro-choice" mean that you "don't mind" if somebody else smokes?

I don't relax my hair anymore, but doesn "pro-choice" mean that you "don't mind" if somebody else relaxes their hair?

I prefer not to have guns in my house, but does "pro-choice" mean that you "don't mind" if your next door neighbor is a gun owner and lifetime member of the NRA?

Here's my point: the issue of abortion, broadly defined as the INTENDED termination of a pregnancy, goes against everything that the Bible says about the protection, sanctity, and value of HUMAN LIFE. This might be harsh and extreme, but would you be pro-choice for the shedding of innocent blood OUTSIDE of the WOMB versus INSIDE of the WOMB?

The other piece to the pro-choice conversation for Bible-believing Christians (and I make this clarification based on your statement here: "Please do not speak for all of Christianity." The Bible is THE FOUNDATIONAL, FUNDAMENTAL GUIDEBOOK for ALL Christians, I thought.) Christians may not completely align with how some scriptures are interpreted, but hopefully we agree that the Bible is the first and final answer on what the Lord would say on a particular topic.

...the other piece to the pro-choice conversations for Bible-believing Christians is our scriptural mandate to HELP one another, gently guide one another as you see a fellow Christian heading toward a FAULT:

Proverbs 27:17 "17 You use steel to sharpen steel, and one friend sharpens another. (The Message)

I know there are other scriptures that speak to how fellow Christians are to help one another when we see one heading down a wrong path...or at least that Christian...that BIBLE-BELIEVING Christian should be able to point DIRECTLY to scripture that supports the pro-choice concept...and that absolves the Christian from being accountable to one another....

I am not advocating force or mind control, either. So as the Christian admonishes another in a sober, scripturally accurate conversation and that person CHOOSES to continue in their particular way of thinking and action, well at least that believer will be able to stand before the Lord and say "Lord, I did everything I could to persuade this person of what the scriptures say on this topic...."
 
The problem with the abortion debate is not about whether a woman should choose or not (if it were we wouldn't be debating it), it is about the gravity of the decision.

If you classify abortion as murder, then you will view abortion as = murder and it is impossible to reconcile its legality with the freedom to choose. For those who believe abortion is murder it is tantamount to telling them that since some people believe that is okay to kill people you don't like but you don't, we can't force legislation upon them on this issue. It doesn't reconcile!

That's what makes abortion such a complicated debate. Some see it as murder and some don't. Some see it as a mere moral issue like infidelity while others see it as a criminal matter. Those who do see it as murder could never allow it on the grounds that it is letting the government fund and allow murder.

I do think churches should have support groups for pregnant, divorced and women who've had abortions. They suffer such a stigma regardless of the nature if their heart and relationship with God. They are in so much pain and many don't know where to take these emotions.
 
I am addressing this since Jews were mentioned as having a particular viewpoint on the status of the fetus. I am correcting something that was said which is wrong.

It is not true that Judaism, in general, considers a fetus a separate life with a separate body and separate rights. The ancient rabbis who wrote about it and based their conclusions on Torah, refute that.

In general, Judaism does not make a blanket statement about abortion, but considers many things particular to the case, in order to come up with the right course of action. As for being "pro-choice", the majority of Jews are against governmental regulation of abortion. Some branches of Judaism (in fact, most of them) have gone on record about this matter. They view it as a woman's private matter and encourage consultation with certain people in her life, which may include her husband, doctor and rabbi.

If anyone is interested in reading information on what Judaism thinks about the status of the fetus and the varied opinions of abortion, please send me a private message.

If the mods feel this post should be removed, I understand.

Gd bless.
 
You said: "There are many of us who are pro-life personally but support choice for others".... I had to roll this sentence around my brain....

Would you agree that that sentence can apply to ANYTHING in life... from gun control to schooling to smoking to using chemicals on your hair to plastic surgery to so on and so on and so on?

Example: I don't smoke, but does "pro-choice" mean that you "don't mind" if somebody else smokes?

I don't relax my hair anymore, but doesn "pro-choice" mean that you "don't mind" if somebody else relaxes their hair?

I prefer not to have guns in my house, but does "pro-choice" mean that you "don't mind" if your next door neighbor is a gun owner and lifetime member of the NRA?

Here's my point: the issue of abortion, broadly defined as the INTENDED termination of a pregnancy, goes against everything that the Bible says about the protection, sanctity, and value of HUMAN LIFE. This might be harsh and extreme, but would you be pro-choice for the shedding of innocent blood OUTSIDE of the WOMB versus INSIDE of the WOMB?

The other piece to the pro-choice conversation for Bible-believing Christians (and I make this clarification based on your statement here: "Please do not speak for all of Christianity." The Bible is THE FOUNDATIONAL, FUNDAMENTAL GUIDEBOOK for ALL Christians, I thought.) Christians may not completely align with how some scriptures are interpreted, but hopefully we agree that the Bible is the first and final answer on what the Lord would say on a particular topic.

...the other piece to the pro-choice conversations for Bible-believing Christians is our scriptural mandate to HELP one another, gently guide one another as you see a fellow Christian heading toward a FAULT:

Proverbs 27:17 "17 You use steel to sharpen steel, and one friend sharpens another. (The Message)

I know there are other scriptures that speak to how fellow Christians are to help one another when we see one heading down a wrong path...or at least that Christian...that BIBLE-BELIEVING Christian should be able to point DIRECTLY to scripture that supports the pro-choice concept...and that absolves the Christian from being accountable to one another....

I am not advocating force or mind control, either. So as the Christian admonishes another in a sober, scripturally accurate conversation and that person CHOOSES to continue in their particular way of thinking and action, well at least that believer will be able to stand before the Lord and say "Lord, I did everything I could to persuade this person of what the scriptures say on this topic...."

Yes, it applies to anything in life - including abortion. I have already pointed to the scripture than supports pro-choice. If nothing else, Jesus life on earth exemplifies this. Please also do read my previous posts where I have stated that as Christians we ought to tell people that abortion is wrong, and encourage them to do right. However, the Bible says that choice belongs to the individual.

For example, it's just like when so many Christians claim that the Bible allows people to eat whatever they want, when it certainly does not. Many Christians are literally KILLING themselves and their children. We ought to encourage them to take a right path, but in the end, the choice is theirs.
 
The problem with the abortion debate is not about whether a woman should choose or not (if it were we wouldn't be debating it), it is about the gravity of the decision.

If you classify abortion as murder, then you will view abortion as = murder and it is impossible to reconcile its legality with the freedom to choose. For those who believe abortion is murder it is tantamount to telling them that since some people believe that is okay to kill people you don't like but you don't, we can't force legislation upon them on this issue. It doesn't reconcile!

That's what makes abortion such a complicated debate. Some see it as murder and some don't. Some see it as a mere moral issue like infidelity while others see it as a criminal matter. Those who do see it as murder could never allow it on the grounds that it is letting the government fund and allow murder.

I do think churches should have support groups for pregnant, divorced and women who've had abortions. They suffer such a stigma regardless of the nature if their heart and relationship with God. They are in so much pain and many don't know where to take these emotions.

That's not true either. There are those of us who see it as taking the life of a child. However, at that particular point, the mother has autonomy over child so still the choice belongs to her. Is it wrong to have an abortion? Yes. However, it is still her choice.

The government already does fund and allow murder, outside of abortion. I do not agree with it and speak about it, but the ultimate choice belongs to those individuals who lead this nation and those who choice to take part in murderous activities. I do wonder how many anti-choice people are also anti-war...
 
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I am addressing this since Jews were mentioned as having a particular viewpoint on the status of the fetus. I am correcting something that was said which is wrong.

It is not true that Judaism, in general, considers a fetus a separate life with a separate body and separate rights. The ancient rabbis who wrote about it and based their conclusions on Torah, refute that.

In general, Judaism does not make a blanket statement about abortion, but considers many things particular to the case, in order to come up with the right course of action. As for being "pro-choice", the majority of Jews are against governmental regulation of abortion. Some branches of Judaism (in fact, most of them) have gone on record about this matter. They view it as a woman's private matter and encourage consultation with certain people in her life, which may include her husband, doctor and rabbi.

If anyone is interested in reading information on what Judaism thinks about the status of the fetus and the varied opinions of abortion, please send me a private message.

If the mods feel this post should be removed, I understand.

Gd bless.


Thank you. The same is true for the majority of Seventh-Day Adventists.

I am here reading up on http://www.jewsonfirst.org/. There is an area here about separation of church and state and there are numerous articles on abortion as well.
 
You said: "There are many of us who are pro-life personally but support choice for others".... I had to roll this sentence around my brain....

Would you agree that that sentence can apply to ANYTHING in life... from gun control to schooling to smoking to using chemicals on your hair to plastic surgery to so on and so on and so on?

Example: I don't smoke, but does "pro-choice" mean that you "don't mind" if somebody else smokes?

I don't relax my hair anymore, but doesn "pro-choice" mean that you "don't mind" if somebody else relaxes their hair?

I prefer not to have guns in my house, but does "pro-choice" mean that you "don't mind" if your next door neighbor is a gun owner and lifetime member of the NRA?

Here's my point: the issue of abortion, broadly defined as the INTENDED termination of a pregnancy, goes against everything that the Bible says about the protection, sanctity, and value of HUMAN LIFE. This might be harsh and extreme, but would you be pro-choice for the shedding of innocent blood OUTSIDE of the WOMB versus INSIDE of the WOMB?

The other piece to the pro-choice conversation for Bible-believing Christians (and I make this clarification based on your statement here: "Please do not speak for all of Christianity." The Bible is THE FOUNDATIONAL, FUNDAMENTAL GUIDEBOOK for ALL Christians, I thought.) Christians may not completely align with how some scriptures are interpreted, but hopefully we agree that the Bible is the first and final answer on what the Lord would say on a particular topic.

...the other piece to the pro-choice conversations for Bible-believing Christians is our scriptural mandate to HELP one another, gently guide one another as you see a fellow Christian heading toward a FAULT:

Proverbs 27:17 "17 You use steel to sharpen steel, and one friend sharpens another. (The Message)

I know there are other scriptures that speak to how fellow Christians are to help one another when we see one heading down a wrong path...or at least that Christian...that BIBLE-BELIEVING Christian should be able to point DIRECTLY to scripture that supports the pro-choice concept...and that absolves the Christian from being accountable to one another....

I am not advocating force or mind control, either. So as the Christian admonishes another in a sober, scripturally accurate conversation and that person CHOOSES to continue in their particular way of thinking and action, well at least that believer will be able to stand before the Lord and say "Lord, I did everything I could to persuade this person of what the scriptures say on this topic...."

Yes, we should help one another. That doesn't mean I forcibly stop you from commiting sin. As Christians, we should call out sin. Abortion is sin. Therefore we should counsel everyone who is the valley on indecision, to not murder. The question is should we empower government to prevent sin and to punish sin.

The ultimate life or death decision is chosing or not choosing Christ. Without Him, there is death. Christ could have used Ceasar to usher in His kingdom. He had the power to make Cesar change laws that would have forced people to convert to Christianity. But He didn't.

That why is so important for us to follow the great commission. Matthew 28: 16-20. The best way to prevent abortion is not enacting laws. The best way is to have a missionary zeal and "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you". Christ did not say forcing them to obey. We are to teach.

Christ is our ultimate example.
 
Yes, it applies to anything in life - including abortion. I have already pointed to the scripture than supports pro-choice. If nothing else, Jesus life on earth exemplifies this. Please also do read my previous posts where I have stated that as Christians we ought to tell people that abortion is wrong, and encourage them to do right. However, the Bible says that choice belongs to the individual.

For example, it's just like when so many Christians claim that the Bible allows people to eat whatever they want, when it certainly does not. Many Christians are literally KILLING themselves and their children. We ought to encourage them to take a right path, but in the end, the choice is theirs.

Yes, I have located and read the scripture you posted (Joshua 24:15). It seems like an "out" to justify pro-choice in that we can "cherry-pick" those principles that align with our earthly beliefs. I submit to you that the Lord seeks biblical consistency among us even in our support for various social causes. This scripture came to mind:

1 Corinthians 5:1-7:
1 It is actually reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even among the Gentiles, that one of you hath his father's wife.


2 And ye are puffed up, and did not rather mourn, that he that had done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing,

4 in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,

5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened. For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ:
8 wherefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
 
Yes, we should help one another. That doesn't mean I forcibly stop you from commiting sin. As Christians, we should call out sin. Abortion is sin. Therefore we should counsel everyone who is the valley on indecision, to not murder. The question is should we empower government to prevent sin and to punish sin.

The ultimate life or death decision is chosing or not choosing Christ. Without Him, there is death. Christ could have used Ceasar to usher in His kingdom. He had the power to make Cesar change laws that would have forced people to convert to Christianity. But He didn't.

That why is so important for us to follow the great commission. Matthew 28: 16-20. The best way to prevent abortion is not enacting laws. The best way is to have a missionary zeal and "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you". Christ did not say forcing them to obey. We are to teach.

Christ is our ultimate example.

Well, how far are we willing to go to help our fellow brother from committing a harm/offense against myself or someone else?

I recall a situation where I was about to BEAT DOWN this sister at this church for talking about my cousin. And I was prepared to BEAT HER DOWN IN THE CHURCH....

But my cousins FORCIBLY grabbed me and walked me out of the church and threw me in the car and sat on me until I calmed down....

Now in the eyes of the earthly law, maybe I could have made a case of assault against my cousins. But spiritually, they stepped up according to Matthew 18:15-17:

"If a fellow believer hurts you, go and tell him—work it out between the two of you. If he listens, you've made a friend. If he won't listen, take one or two others along so that the presence of witnesses will keep things honest, and try again. If he still won't listen, tell the church. If he won't listen to the church, you'll have to start over from scratch, confront him with the need for repentance, and offer again God's forgiving love.

So in this passage, there are THREE interventions to help the fellow believer avoid/prevent sin from occurring (or continuing to occur). And it might be said that the scripture says "if a fellow believer HURTS YOU". I submit to you that when one of us sins, it hurts the entire BODY. The believers come together as ONE BODY IN CHRIST.

Somebody please help me with the scripture that says then when one of us hurts, we all hurt and when one of us is victorious, we are all victorious.
 
Yes, I have located and read the scripture you posted (Joshua 24:15). It seems like an "out" to justify pro-choice in that we can "cherry-pick" those principles that align with our earthly beliefs. I submit to you that the Lord seeks biblical consistency among us even in our support for various social causes. This scripture came to mind:

1 Corinthians 5:1-7:
1 It is actually reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even among the Gentiles, that one of you hath his father's wife.


2 And ye are puffed up, and did not rather mourn, that he that had done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing,

4 in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,

5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened. For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ:
8 wherefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

I'm sorry but I really do not see your point...

The Lord gives all people the choice to live for Him or choose a sinful lifestyle. How is it a "cherry pick" when it refers to life in general? Just because we may have certain stance on a particular issue, does not give us the right to force our beliefs on anyone else. That is against God's character. The entire reason why Jesus died for our sins was because He would not force us to follow Him. We are called to live a life that is holy and acceptable to the Lord. In the verses that you have posted, the Bible here is instructing us in the way we ought to live yet the choice belongs to each individual. God will deal with those who choose otherwise.
 
Well, how far are we willing to go to help our fellow brother from committing a harm/offense against myself or someone else?

I recall a situation where I was about to BEAT DOWN this sister at this church for talking about my cousin. And I was prepared to BEAT HER DOWN IN THE CHURCH....

But my cousins FORCIBLY grabbed me and walked me out of the church and threw me in the car and sat on me until I calmed down....

Now in the eyes of the earthly law, maybe I could have made a case of assault against my cousins. But spiritually, they stepped up according to Matthew 18:15-17:

"If a fellow believer hurts you, go and tell him—work it out between the two of you. If he listens, you've made a friend. If he won't listen, take one or two others along so that the presence of witnesses will keep things honest, and try again. If he still won't listen, tell the church. If he won't listen to the church, you'll have to start over from scratch, confront him with the need for repentance, and offer again God's forgiving love.

So in this passage, there are THREE interventions to help the fellow believer avoid/prevent sin from occurring (or continuing to occur). And it might be said that the scripture says "if a fellow believer HURTS YOU". I submit to you that when one of us sins, it hurts the entire BODY. The believers come together as ONE BODY IN CHRIST.

Somebody please help me with the scripture that says then when one of us hurts, we all hurt and when one of us is victorious, we are all victorious.

Nothing in those verses condones forcing others do conform to our religious beliefs.
 
Nothing in those verses condones forcing others do conform to our religious beliefs.

It does amongst BELIEVERS.... One Lord, one faith, one baptism. (Ephesians 4:5). My previous posts clarify that I am speaking of BELIEVERS who claim and declare their salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
It does amongst BELIEVERS.... One Lord, one faith, one baptism. (Ephesians 4:5). My previous posts clarify that I am speaking of BELIEVERS who claim and declare their salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I disagree. The Bible does not state that believers should force each other to adhere to their personal convictions. If that was the case, then Catholics in the past would not have been wrong in their massacre of Protestants who diverged from Catholicism. Did Jesus Christ forces fellow Jews to believe on Him? The Bible gives a proper way to deal with difficulties among members in the church, nothing more. Further, the abortion issue is one that encompasses more than Christians.

It is important to understand Ephesians 4:5 in the context of the verses around it.

Ephesians 4:1-6
I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you[a] all.

The Bible uses the word beseech here. Beseech means to "to beg for urgently or anxiously; to request earnestly; to implore." That means that we are being counseled to walk upright, not forced.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/beseech
 
Well, how far are we willing to go to help our fellow brother from committing a harm/offense against myself or someone else?

I recall a situation where I was about to BEAT DOWN this sister at this church for talking about my cousin. And I was prepared to BEAT HER DOWN IN THE CHURCH....

But my cousins FORCIBLY grabbed me and walked me out of the church and threw me in the car and sat on me until I calmed down....

Now in the eyes of the earthly law, maybe I could have made a case of assault against my cousins. But spiritually, they stepped up according to Matthew 18:15-17:

"If a fellow believer hurts you, go and tell him—work it out between the two of you. If he listens, you've made a friend. If he won't listen, take one or two others along so that the presence of witnesses will keep things honest, and try again. If he still won't listen, tell the church. If he won't listen to the church, you'll have to start over from scratch, confront him with the need for repentance, and offer again God's forgiving love.

So in this passage, there are THREE interventions to help the fellow believer avoid/prevent sin from occurring (or continuing to occur). And it might be said that the scripture says "if a fellow believer HURTS YOU". I submit to you that when one of us sins, it hurts the entire BODY. The believers come together as ONE BODY IN CHRIST.

Somebody please help me with the scripture that says then when one of us hurts, we all hurt and when one of us is victorious, we are all victorious.

I agree. We all hurt but the final decision still lies with the offender. Also, I don't consider the government part of the body of Christ and therefore is not authorized to counsel or dole out punishment on OUR matters. If someone was considering an abortion, I would take it to the pastor and fellow believers NOT the government. Same for adultery, fornication, etc.

In that case, do you feel you, as a Christian, should kidnap a woman who is pregnant and hold her hostage until she is able to deliver to prevent an abortion? Do you think God would condone this?

Abortion is wrong. Yes we can agree its murder. But should we physically prevent someone from having one? Maybe. But for me, it doesn't involve George Bush, Sonny Purdue, Clarence Thomas, or Shirley Franklin. I think there are times we are to intervene and then their are others where we are to pray. That's why we must pray for spiritual discernment.

Laws of this land should only be enacted for the country to function in a proper and orderly manner. Anything else, it needs to stay out of OUR business.
 
Does the Bible say that human life begins at conception?

My jury is still kinda out on the pro-life/choice stance. I'm pro-choice in that a woman should have the right to choose, even if abortion is considered a sin. I have the right to choose to fornicate, lie, steal, and a whole slew of other sins. But I'm also pro-life in that a human should have the right to not be killed by another human. My difficulty is where human life actually begins. Do two cells, an egg and a sperm, conjoined make a human? does an embryo 1 month post fertilization that cannot life outside of the womb make a human? does a fetus at 6 months post fertilization that could survive out of the womb a human? or does human life begin after delivery?

what's the biblical stance?

Lys
 
I disagree. The Bible does not state that believers should force each other to adhere to their personal convictions. If that was the case, then Catholics in the past would not have been wrong in their massacre of Protestants who diverged from Catholicism. Did Jesus Christ forces fellow Jews to believe on Him? The Bible gives a proper way to deal with difficulties among members in the church, nothing more. Further, the abortion issue is one that encompasses more than Christians.

It is important to understand Ephesians 4:5 in the context of the verses around it.

Ephesians 4:1-6


The Bible uses the word beseech here. Beseech means to "to beg for urgently or anxiously; to request earnestly; to implore." That means that we are being counseled to walk upright, not forced.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/beseech

The sanctity of life (in or out of the womb) is not a personal conviction for the Bible-believing Christian. It is a biblical mandate. Exodus 20:13: Thou shalt not kill. Kill being defined as the shedding of INNOCENT BLOOD.
 
I agree. We all hurt but the final decision still lies with the offender. Also, I don't consider the government part of the body of Christ and therefore is not authorized to counsel or dole out punishment on OUR matters. If someone was considering an abortion, I would take it to the pastor and fellow believers NOT the government. Same for adultery, fornication, etc.

In that case, do you feel you, as a Christian, should kidnap a woman who is pregnant and hold her hostage until she is able to deliver to prevent an abortion? Do you think God would condone this?

Abortion is wrong. Yes we can agree its murder. But should we physically prevent someone from having one? Maybe. But for me, it doesn't involve George Bush, Sonny Purdue, Clarence Thomas, or Shirley Franklin. I think there are times we are to intervene and then their are others where we are to pray. That's why we must pray for spiritual discernment.

Laws of this land should only be enacted for the country to function in a proper and orderly manner. Anything else, it needs to stay out of OUR business.

Not just "a" woman, but possibly a woman who I knew personally and knew that was a believer and who was sincerely struggling with the matter, I would try to talk to the person IN LOVE as much as I could and hopefully persuade her to keep the baby.

I see that the governmental piece keeps coming up in your posts and I did speak to that in an earlier post. I suppose the crux of my posts deal with the seeming CONTRADICTION of a person who declares oneself as a believer but also supports the women's right to choose, which is a "loose" link to supporting abortion, both in principle, deed, and possibly tax dollars.

As ONE BODY of CHRIST, there should be some fundamental things that ALL BELIEVERS should agree upon, and that is the sanctity of life, both in and out of the womb.

Maybe I'm being unrealistic that agreement is achievable amongst the entire Body of Christ.
 
Does the Bible say that human life begins at conception?

My jury is still kinda out on the pro-life/choice stance. I'm pro-choice in that a woman should have the right to choose, even if abortion is considered a sin. I have the right to choose to fornicate, lie, steal, and a whole slew of other sins. But I'm also pro-life in that a human should have the right to not be killed by another human. My difficulty is where human life actually begins. Do two cells, an egg and a sperm, conjoined make a human? does an embryo 1 month post fertilization that cannot life outside of the womb make a human? does a fetus at 6 months post fertilization that could survive out of the womb a human? or does human life begin after delivery?

what's the biblical stance?

Lys
I did a Google search "bible+life+begins" and got a number of hits.... In addition to the following links, there were other (opposing) perspectives as well.

Here's one response to your question:

http://www.gotquestions.org/life-begin-conception.html

Does the Bible teach that life begins at conception?


Question: "Does the Bible teach that life begins at conception?"

Answer:
Every culture's view of when human life begins changes as society's values, moral standards, and knowledge about the process of embryonic development change. Prior to the 1973 court decision that allowed abortion on demand, developing embryos were considered unborn persons. Now, even a fetus that could survive on its own outside its mother's womb could be aborted, under certain medical circumstances. This demonstrates that we do not consider an unborn child to be a true human being.

Science tell us that human life begins at the time of conception. From the moment fertilization takes place, the child's genetic makeup is already complete. Its gender has already been determined, along with its height and hair, eye and skin color. The only thing the embryo needs to become a fully-functioning being is the time to grow and develop.

More importantly, God reveals to us in His Word that not only does life begin at conception, but He knows who we are even before then (Jeremiah 1:5). King David said this about God's role in our conception: "For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb....Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them" (Psalm 139:13, 16).

Society continually seeks to devalue the lives of the unborn, creating its own definitions of humanity based on distorted views of morality. But the undeniable fact is that life begins at creation, and a human is created as soon as it is conceived. God is present at our creation; He is, in fact, our Creator. Our value as human beings created in His image are conceived even before we are.

Recommended Resource: The Cost of Choice: Women Evaluate the Impact of Abortion by Erika Bachiochi, Editor.


Here are some other scriptures:


References

  1. "Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb? (Job 31:15)​
  2. Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (Psalms 22:9-10)​
  3. For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Thy works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (Psalms 139:13-16)​
  4. Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, `Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen. (Isaiah 44:2) Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone, (Isaiah 44:24)​
 
Interesting thread...I thought OP's original inquiry was sweet and kind hearted.

However, I'd like to point out that such a ministry would probably be most helpful to women who had an abortion while believing it was wrong, no matter why they thought it was wrong. These are the women that will report feeling guilty and bad afterward...IMO. I would expect that many church going Christians would be less likely to get the abortion in the first place, but those are the ones that would hear about the services.

I guess what I am saying is do you think you will have any people to participate?
 
Not just "a" woman, but possibly a woman who I knew personally and knew that was a believer and who was sincerely struggling with the matter, I would try to talk to the person IN LOVE as much as I could and hopefully persuade her to keep the baby.

I see that the governmental piece keeps coming up in your posts and I did speak to that in an earlier post. I suppose the crux of my posts deal with the seeming CONTRADICTION of a person who declares oneself as a believer but also supports the women's right to choose, which is a "loose" link to supporting abortion, both in principle, deed, and possibly tax dollars.

As ONE BODY of CHRIST, there should be some fundamental things that ALL BELIEVERS should agree upon, and that is the sanctity of life, both in and out of the womb.

Maybe I'm being unrealistic that agreement is achievable amongst the entire Body of Christ.

I support the right for people to choose to reject Christ. I believe in religious freedom. Does this mean I support rejecting Christ?

ETA: No, I don't support the use of tax dollars for anything that is anti-Christian. I have my kids in private school for this very purpose, I don't like the "agenda" that is pushed in public schools. I don't want my kids learning what is acceptable morally from the government. I think the government pushes their version of morality to much. This is why I'm staunchly against them even enforcing laws that support my Christian beliefs. And no, I don't see where you address government enforcement of Christian beliefs.
 
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I support the right for people to choose to reject Christ. I believe in religious freedom. Does this mean I support rejecting Christ?

Religious freedom is a governmental term and I have stated that my boundaries for this discussion are beyond governmental and more toward the religious/spiritual components. But I'll indulge....

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/irf/
U.S. Department of State
Given the U.S. commitment to religious freedom, and to the international covenants that guarantee it as the inalienable right of every human being, the United States seeks to:
  • Promote freedom of religion and conscience throughout the world as a fundamental human right and as a source of stability for all countries;
  • Assist newly formed democracies in implementing freedom of religion and conscience;
  • Assist religious and human rights NGOs in promoting religious freedom;
  • Identify and denounce regimes that are severe persecutors of their citizens or others on the basis of religious belief.
Actually, it's kind of humorous.... the foundation of the U.S. government was that of Judeo-Christian values.... So, at least historically, it could be argued that any religion (and subsequent values) other than Christianity were rejectionable....

I certainly advocate the FREEDOM OF RELIGION because governmentally, that allows many religious faiths to practice...and hopefully, the one you practice aligns with those in power. Maybe I'm digressing on that tangent....

So back to your question, are you INDIRECTLY rejecting Christ through your support of religious freedom? Under the wording of your question? Yes. If you had said that you support the freedom of religion (as outlined in the Bill of Rights(?), I believe) and paused there, I may have been able to answer with a stronger affirmative.
 
Religious freedom is a governmental term and I have stated that my boundaries for this discussion are beyond governmental and more toward the religious/spiritual components. But I'll indulge....

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/irf/
U.S. Department of State
Given the U.S. commitment to religious freedom, and to the international covenants that guarantee it as the inalienable right of every human being, the United States seeks to:
  • Promote freedom of religion and conscience throughout the world as a fundamental human right and as a source of stability for all countries;
  • Assist newly formed democracies in implementing freedom of religion and conscience;
  • Assist religious and human rights NGOs in promoting religious freedom;
  • Identify and denounce regimes that are severe persecutors of their citizens or others on the basis of religious belief.
Actually, it's kind of humorous.... the foundation of the U.S. government was that of Judeo-Christian values.... So, at least historically, it could be argued that any religion (and subsequent values) other than Christianity were rejectionable....

I certainly advocate the FREEDOM OF RELIGION because governmentally, that allows many religious faiths to practice...and hopefully, the one you practice aligns with those in power. Maybe I'm digressing on that tangent....

So back to your question, are you INDIRECTLY rejecting Christ through your support of religious freedom? Under the wording of your question? Yes. If you had said that you support the freedom of religion (as outlined in the Bill of Rights(?), I believe) and paused there, I may have been able to answer with a stronger affirmative.

I was clear. I said I support people's right to reject Christ. This is my context for religious freedom. I would never force someone to accept Christ. They must come willingly. Christians have tried to do this in the past. It doesn't work.
 
I'm sorry but I really do not see your point...

The Lord gives all people the choice to live for Him or choose a sinful lifestyle. How is it a "cherry pick" when it refers to life in general? Just because we may have certain stance on a particular issue, does not give us the right to force our beliefs on anyone else. That is against God's character. The entire reason why Jesus died for our sins was because He would not force us to follow Him. We are called to live a life that is holy and acceptable to the Lord. In the verses that you have posted, the Bible here is instructing us in the way we ought to live yet the choice belongs to each individual. God will deal with those who choose otherwise.

I kindly refer you to my "thinking out loud" post (Post #56).
 
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