Do YOU think there will ever be a totally non-damaging "hair" relaxer???
- Thread starter thinkpinkprincess
- Start date
Neith
New Member
I don't know.
It would have to be unlike anything currently on the market.
BKT looks promising, but lethal to me
Humankind has created tons of things that people wouldn't have thought possible even 50 years ago. So, I can't say never. There is a slight chance that something non damaging will be discovered somewhere down the line.
It would have to be unlike anything currently on the market.
BKT looks promising, but lethal to me
Humankind has created tons of things that people wouldn't have thought possible even 50 years ago. So, I can't say never. There is a slight chance that something non damaging will be discovered somewhere down the line.
Ok...so everyone discusses how a relaxer is damaging because "bonds are broken." Yes, it is true that bonds are broken....however, what I would like to see is the following:
1) a picture or description of the bonds of naturally straight type 1 hair,
2) a picture or description of the bonds in naturally curly/ kinky type 3 or 4 hair,
AND
3) a picture or description of the bonds of relaxed type 3 or 4 hair with the bonds "broken."
Because, however "weakened" the hair is supposed to be, 70% of black women are walking around with relaxed hair and we still have hair on our heads. Yes, the bonds are broken, but the strands are obviously not falling apart or anything - unless the relaxer has been applied improperly or heat has been an issue. I want to see or understand the difference between naturally straight hair and chemically straightened hair.
Naturals seem to suffer from the EXACT same problems as ladies with relaxed hair.
I don't understand why we have to think or relaxed hair as damaged, rather than just chemically altered?, especially when few people seem to be able to even define what damaged actually means.
1) a picture or description of the bonds of naturally straight type 1 hair,
2) a picture or description of the bonds in naturally curly/ kinky type 3 or 4 hair,
AND
3) a picture or description of the bonds of relaxed type 3 or 4 hair with the bonds "broken."
Because, however "weakened" the hair is supposed to be, 70% of black women are walking around with relaxed hair and we still have hair on our heads. Yes, the bonds are broken, but the strands are obviously not falling apart or anything - unless the relaxer has been applied improperly or heat has been an issue. I want to see or understand the difference between naturally straight hair and chemically straightened hair.
Naturals seem to suffer from the EXACT same problems as ladies with relaxed hair.
I don't understand why we have to think or relaxed hair as damaged, rather than just chemically altered?, especially when few people seem to be able to even define what damaged actually means.
Neith
New Member
I get what you're saying. It's TECHNICALLY damaged, but it was damaged purposely. I doubt that people actually refer to healthy relaxed hair as being damaged in day to day conversation... just when you get technical about it.
It's absolutely a fact... relaxed hair is a result of putting a caustic, alkaline chemical in to the hair that breaks down keratin the the cortex of the hair. On purpose, but that doesn't change what happens to the hair. It also doesn't mean that the hair can't be very healthy even after the relaxer.
Everyone with healthy hair has some "damage" to an extent. No matter who you are or what type of hair you have.
I don't find it to be insulting, it's just a fact that sometimes comes up.
You're absolutely right. Something else you said in another thread really stuck with me- basically it was something like not being natural is not a bad thing.
I guess the "relaxer is damaging" thing is something that I have to learn not to defensive about and just deal with it.
Nope. Like it's been mentioned before--it breaks down bonds in the hair. So I think relaxers will always be somewhat damaging. Even if it's not necessarily seen. That doesn't mean that healthy relaxed hair doesn't exist--it does. But I don't believe relaxed hair can ever be as strong as it would be without the relaxer....
TaurusAngel
New Member
Hmmm...... maybe. Some type of synthetics can come into play. Lol, i don't know. I'm stretching, but anything is possible.
Is kinky hair strong in it's natural state if you can't safely run comb through type 4 natural hair?
- That's literally a question, not trying to smart about it
msa
New Member
That is a really good question.
The way that I think about it for myself is that combs aren't meant to be used on my type 4 natural hair. I look at it this way, this morning I rinsed my hair and let it dry without doing anything to it. It doesn't dry into a nest of tangles or anything like that, it just dries into a regular fro.
So, my hair doesn't need to be combed in order for it to be tamed or maintained. Water and my fingers are enough to get any tangles out without breaking my hair. Running a comb through it wouldn't accomplish anything and it would still dry the same way. I can use a comb on wet hair though, I just don't need to most of the time.
Combs aren't even a part of the equation for me if I let my hair act according to its natural characteristics. IMO, combs/brushes only become necessary when I am trying to manipulate my hair in some way. Whether or not a comb can go through my hair is not a measure of it's strength.
ebonylocs
New Member
I've been thinking of this lately as well. Mostly spurred, as some have said, by the various keratin straightening treatments out there now. One I find interesting is Pravana Keratin Fusion. It's different from BKT etc in that it uses a chemical, cysteamine, to "rearrange" (that's what their technical guy told me) the disulphide bonds, but then according to their product description, they add real human hair keratin back to the hair.
Here's their website:
http://pravana.com/v2/vis/products/keratin_fusion_texture_control.php
As you can see from videos 2 and 3, they say that if heat is not used in the process, the hair doesn't become completely straight, and "reverts" back to unstraightened after around 3 months. So maybe they are telling the truth about not breaking the disulphide bonds, just rearranging them. Actually their techical guy told me that the hair will revert after a few months*if* its treated with protein and moisture. That seems like the bonds can be made to "spring back" by filling them in with missing atoms and molecules.
I have no clue how well this works, but I'm intrigued...
I don't know about that - many of the us with relaxed hair are walking around with visibly broken off and eaten up hair. Some of my strands are definitely falling apart (partially, as you say, from overprocessing by a stylist, but the thing is, it's not something most stylists get right).
I've been on both sides of the fence and I will say that my natural hair and my relaxed hair have different problems. My natural hair's problems were tangling and shrinkage (which caused more tangling) and my relaxed hair's main problem is fragility, which causes breakage. Sure my natural hair had some split ends etc, but not as much. The reason I couldn't run a comb through my natural hair was it's *kinkiness* or *nappyness* or *coilyness* or whatever you want to call it, because the comb gets caught up in the tangles and coils and snaps my hair off. I've been really thinking lately ( I have a lot of new growth), that if only I could keep the strength of my natural strands, yet somehow just smooth them out so that they are easy to comb through - that would be the best of both worlds...
hopeful
Well-Known Member
Excellent post!
Southernbella.
Well-Known Member
I can safely tear through my natural hair with a Denman brush, and I have shedding, but breakage is not an issue. I don't really comb it because there is no point, and the only time I use my Denman is if I'm detangling or manipulating my hair in some way.
Basically, natural kinky hair really doesn't need to be combed.
I was thinking about this...when I flat iron my hair, and it's straight, are any bonds broken then? My hair reverts every time, so obviously any "damage" suffered is temporary. Maybe someone will come up with a relaxer that similarly "damages" hair so that the bonds aren't completely broken.
Southernbella.
Well-Known Member
I agree. Unfortunately, the majority of relaxed heads I see IRL are chewed up and broken off. I don't think that's a function of the relaxer as much as bad practices, but still. Having hair and having healthy looking hair are two different things.
Southernbella.
Well-Known Member
That's what I get for not finishing the thread before replying.
This is what I was talking about. 
gymfreak336
New Member
Here is my only question with that.
They use Cysteamine which is a molecule whos sole purpose is to cleave aka break disulphide bond that holds cysteine molecules together. The heat serves the same purpose as smoothing and neutralizing shampoo, it locks the new pattern in place. Since they are using a chemical that still breaks cysteine bonds, how is that any different than leaving relaxer on for a couple of minutes, not smoothing and just rinsing it out? If you give hair enough protein within a certain time frame of a any chemical process, you can cause a certain level of reversion. My other question then becomes how much reversion can be expected, it won't be 100% if the hair is chemcially treated. And then how much over time?
I really don't think so!
Disulphide bonds form part of the kerain chain and causes the strength within the hair.
Disulphide bonds are also a protein.
In order to change the structure of the hair, these bonds need to be broken. To break these bonds, you're gonna need something to denature the protein or destroy it and because dilsulphide bonds are so strong, you need a strong denaturaing product.
I work as a Forensic DNA Analyst and out of all the biological mediums, hair is one of the hardest to get a profile from and you need an extra reagent (DTT) to break the tough outer coatings/bonds. That DTT is one strong reagent and stinks like hell.
Relaxers will always need to be harsh chemical base products to achieve the desired results!
Disulphide bonds form part of the kerain chain and causes the strength within the hair.
Disulphide bonds are also a protein.
In order to change the structure of the hair, these bonds need to be broken. To break these bonds, you're gonna need something to denature the protein or destroy it and because dilsulphide bonds are so strong, you need a strong denaturaing product.
I work as a Forensic DNA Analyst and out of all the biological mediums, hair is one of the hardest to get a profile from and you need an extra reagent (DTT) to break the tough outer coatings/bonds. That DTT is one strong reagent and stinks like hell.
Relaxers will always need to be harsh chemical base products to achieve the desired results!
ebonylocs
New Member
Your question underlined is what I really wanted to know, and why I emailed the tech guy listed on their website. I don't think I got a completely satisfactory answer. From my experience with texlaxed hair, I know that some reversion is possible when you add protein to partially processed hair (this can happen even a couple of months later, as I discovered when I left in a protein + moisturising conditioner mixture covered by a plastic bag for several hours and somehow suddenly seemed to have sprouted an afro past the length of my new growth
). But I wanted to know if their so-called "temporary" room temperature process was *really* temporary, i.e. could you do it to the same portion of hair over and over again without damage once it wore off. In his brief emails to me, the tech guy called the room temperature process "demi-permanent", which to me is different from "temporary", and said near complete reversion would take place "if protein and moisture treatments were given", but confirmed that the process could be done to the same portion of hair over and over again. But given the bold, I don't know if I can trust the latter assurance.Re your first question, even in the room temperature process, they actually do smooth the hair (they call it "maintaining tension" in their videos), but it seems that if they stop there, rinse and apply the "bonding" lotion without flatironing, the end result is a "soft wave", not completely straight hair. You can see what the curly haired mixed girl's hair looks like before they flat iron her hair and bond it - it's nearly straight, kind of wavy (video 3). As for how that would be different from other relaxers + protein, i don't know, unless there is something that makes cysteamine in general or their version of it gentler than hydroxide relaxers, and/or the quality of the proteins added - i.e. closer to human hair... I leave those to you and our other resident chemists to answer..
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I understand what you are saying, but...
There are many women with visibly broken off hair, dry hair, and split ends in general, both relaxed & natural, and of various ethnic backgrounds- which is, IMO, why almost every hair care company has products that claim to "reverse damage," and "reduce split ends."
Products for "damaged" hair aren't all marketed to AA relaxed heads specifically. I think that most broken up and eaten up hair is a result of general bad hair care practices (note, I am not arguing that relaxers are not problematic for some, because they can be).
gymfreak336
New Member
Your question underlined is what I really wanted to know, and why I emailed the tech guy listed on their website. I don't think I got a completely satisfactory answer. From my experience with texlaxed hair, I know that some reversion is possible when you add protein to partially processed hair (this can happen even a couple of months later, as I discovered when I left in a protein + moisturising conditioner mixture covered by a plastic bag for several hours and somehow suddenly seemed to have sprouted an afro past the length of my new growth
Re your first question, even in the room temperature process, they actually do smooth the hair (they call it "maintaining tension" in their videos), but it seems that if they stop there, rinse and apply the "bonding" lotion without flatironing, the end result is a "soft wave", not completely straight hair. You can see what the curly haired mixed girl's hair looks like before they flat iron her hair and bond it - it's nearly straight, kind of wavy (video 3). As for how that would be different from other relaxers + protein, i don't know, unless there is something that makes cysteamine in general or their version of it gentler than hydroxide relaxers, and/or the quality of the proteins added - i.e. closer to human hair... I leave those to you and our other resident chemists to answer..
Thanks for investigating. ITA with you. Demi permanent and temporary are not the same things. If you find out anything else, please share.
It would be nice if a company could come out with a solution to be used after relaxing that would be able to reinforce the hair strands much like a cearmide but with the pentration ability of protein without the potential reversion. It would be awesome if the formula could judge the degree of need by the level of positive and negative charge in the hair.
GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I
New Member
I've been doing alot of contemplation lately when it comes to hair and I've been thinking about the possibility of us someday formulating a totally damage - free hair relaxer... this might sound crazy but I really want to do this! I think it's possible, but people have perhaps put more focus on revolutionizing technology in other areas such as electronic gadgets etc. So... and please don't stone me
After all, some of the people on this board are probably more passionate about than the average person ! lol
so I was thinking...
ok the bonds are weakened in the hair, allowing it to "relax"... so maybe if there was a potent human keratin treatment applied to it afterwards that somehow froze the new molecular position permanently and then reinforced/filled in the weak spots , like if the keratin atoms were somehow sensitive enough to be able to detect exactly where damaged had occured using some sort of magnetic system..... idk I just started thinking about this like, yesterday so I'll keep brainstorming and doing research because I really think we can do it! I think we can come up with a damage - free relaxer!
I've always wished for such. I'd like something that cannot further relax new-growth hair once it's been treated with the alterating chemical or that there be some kind of sealant product to prevent damage that is chemical activated. But then you have to worry about getting it on untreated bits near the joint between new-growth and relaxed and overly applying the sealant so that you get an untreated section. Chemical activation to treat new growth and stop after reaching a certain degree of breaking the bonds then neutralizing itself. Oh, how I wish...of course, non cancer-causing!
GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I
New Member
I've been doing alot of contemplation lately when it comes to hair and I've been thinking about the possibility of us someday formulating a totally damage - free hair relaxer... this might sound crazy but I really want to do this! I think it's possible, but people have perhaps put more focus on revolutionizing technology in other areas such as electronic gadgets etc. So... and please don't stone me
After all, some of the people on this board are probably more passionate about than the average person ! lol
so I was thinking...
ok the bonds are weakened in the hair, allowing it to "relax"... so maybe if there was a potent human keratin treatment applied to it afterwards that somehow froze the new molecular position permanently and then reinforced/filled in the weak spots , like if the keratin atoms were somehow sensitive enough to be able to detect exactly where damaged had occured using some sort of magnetic system..... idk I just started thinking about this like, yesterday so I'll keep brainstorming and doing research because I really think we can do it! I think we can come up with a damage - free relaxer!
Actually, what you're describing is BKT, Brazilian Keratin Treatment or the other Keratin infusion treatments...but they are semi-permanent. I think their science is that a lot of keratin straightens curly hair and the flat-iron infuses it into the cortex of the hair shaft. I remember reading that Japanese hair is the straightest because of the high level of keratin present.
There's a program I was considering getting into for the expressed purposes of working with companies developing cosmetics for AA hair...or making my own. I wish, WISH, I had studied chemistry in undergrad. Just think of it...if we all could brainstorm and find a chemist who could make something to OUR specifications.....and we got a cut!
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Associate in Specialized Technology[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Chemical Laboratory Technician [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This intensive, one-year program prepares you for an entry-level job in the chemical industry and related fields such as the chemical/petrochemical, biotechnology, environmental, cosmetic, food processing, manufacturing, metallurgy and pharmaceutical industries. You'll develop and advance your mathematical and science skills, as well as learn the safe and proper use of lab equipment and how to be part of a professional lab team. Your studies will include an eight-week externship at a local company, where you will apply what you've learned in class lectures and the laboratory to on-the-job situations. You'll graduate in 12 months with an occupational associate degree in specialized technology-half the time required by most colleges.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Training:1,500 clock hours including an eight-week externship, 8:30 AM-2:30 PM, Monday through Friday, hours will change during the externship phase of training[/FONT]
GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I
New Member
People mentioning Joico. I bought their silk for flat-iron at Marshalls because I was too cheap to buy Chi and that stuff puts a SHINE on the hair like nothing else!~!! A little off-tangent...just wanted to agree that Joico has good products.
PinkSkates
New Member
That's what I was thinking...It is physiologically impossible. One would have to re-invent science to make OP's question come true.
gymfreak336
New Member
Actually, what you're describing is BKT, Brazilian Keratin Treatment or the other Keratin infusion treatments...but they are semi-permanent. I think their science is that a lot of keratin straightens curly hair and the flat-iron infuses it into the cortex of the hair shaft. I remember reading that Japanese hair is the straightest because of the high level of keratin present.
Heat and chemicals. The chemicals are still affecting the bonds in the hair. Keratin is a hard protein. You can't just force it in the amounts need to try to restucture bonds into the hair without the help of a chemical to affect the bonds. Plus the degree of curl to the hair naturally is largely due the shape of the hair follicles. Asian people tend to have a very large round follicle. African follicles are shaped more like kidney beans and White people are in between.
ebonylocs
New Member
Of course. Just because relaxers are one potential cause of damage doesn't mean they are the only possible cause of damage.
I guess most of us go by personal experience. The relaxed portions of my strands feel more porous, compromised and fragile than the non-relaxed portions.
I do agree with you that it would be very useful to compare and contrast the composition of naturally straight (1A) hair, natural type 4 hair, and relaxed type 4 hair. From my personal experience sharing a house with East Asian girls (and llike a good LHCFer, giving our shed hairs that tug test) - the difference would appear to be the thickness and integrity of the cuticles and the strand in general. I can differentiate their hairs from mine because of
1) the extreme smoothness of the strand (caused, I assume, partly by flat interlocking cuticles, rather than the more raised ones on my relaxed hair, and also by their round crossection), and
2) how much more force it takes to break one of their strands.
Of course, those differences would still be there to a large extent between their hair and my natural hair as well, but not to the same degree, because the relaxing process by definition raises the cuticles (and they may or may not be completely reflattened by the neutralising step).*
Would you be able to choose where you do your externship - i.e. could you choose a cosmetic company focusing on African-XXXX hair? If so, that would be great.
thinkpinkprincess
New Member
Still brainstorming ladies... 
BTW I found some salons in my area that do the Pravana Treatment! I'll see how much it costs
BTW I found some salons in my area that do the Pravana Treatment! I'll see how much it costs
ebonylocs
New Member
Still brainstorming ladies...
BTW I found some salons in my area that do the Pravana Treatment! I'll see how much it costs
I'm sure it's probably hella expensive.
They say it's safer because it doesn't contain lye, thio or formaldehyde. But what's not clear is why cysteamine - which also affects disulphide bonds, is safer than those three.
ebonylocs
New Member
Still brainstorming ladies...
BTW I found some salons in my area that do the Pravana Treatment! I'll see how much it costs
I'm sure it's probably hella expensive.
They say it's safer because it doesn't contain lye, thio or formaldehyde. But what's not clear is why cysteamine - which also affects disulphide bonds, would be safer than those three.
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