GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I
New Member
Ha!! Something opened through my eyes like scales falling off...literally...He is the Sabbath...we rest in Him. I never ever saw it this way before.
Historical Proof for Sabbath Day Change
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dicapr
Well-Known Member
Jesus kept the Sabbath. He worshipped on Sabbath. I am a follower of Christ, so that is what I am convicted to do. Can we worship and be blessed on Sunday? Of course. Can we keep the Sabbath on any other day except Saturday-NO! Sabbath keeping will not save you, but it is a blessing that I feel too many Christians are missing out on.
Historically, the early Chrisitans worshiped on Saturday not Sunday. Sunday worship was first embraced as a way for Gentile christians to distance themselves from the Jews. Gentiles used to worship the Sun God and it was cultural for them to worship on Sunday. When they converted, they continued to have there big service on Sunday. The early church split over this issue and Sunday became the day of worship for Christianity.
It is still engrained in our culture and regarded by most of Chrisitianity as a day of rest. However, it is difficult for me to hold on to the 10 commandments-all of which are repeated in the New Testement- and pretend that Jesus only nailed one to the cross. And the one that he nailed to the cross is recorded that he kept. And why would he nail the commandment that acknowledges him as creator and gives us a day of rest to the cross?
Historically, the early Chrisitans worshiped on Saturday not Sunday. Sunday worship was first embraced as a way for Gentile christians to distance themselves from the Jews. Gentiles used to worship the Sun God and it was cultural for them to worship on Sunday. When they converted, they continued to have there big service on Sunday. The early church split over this issue and Sunday became the day of worship for Christianity.
It is still engrained in our culture and regarded by most of Chrisitianity as a day of rest. However, it is difficult for me to hold on to the 10 commandments-all of which are repeated in the New Testement- and pretend that Jesus only nailed one to the cross. And the one that he nailed to the cross is recorded that he kept. And why would he nail the commandment that acknowledges him as creator and gives us a day of rest to the cross?
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aribell
formerly nicola.kirwan
GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I
New Member
Hebrews 3-4
And to the "HEBREWS" ahahaha. I must say, this has been one of the most interesting discussions we've had!
God is awesome and He leaves no Stone unturned. He has us as "all' as Christians , covering the entire week's end and the week's beginning.
It' is an overflow of worship, which He brings it to a close with those who worship on Saturday, and brings it into a new beginning with those who worship on Sunday. Everything in between, is surrounded by those of us who stand on the 'wall' and maintain the standard of worship, on both Saturday and Sunday.
God said that He searched and could find no one who would stand on the wall and we who gather, answered His call. The high praises of Saturday overflow into Sunday and carry us into mid-week with Bible Study. The seal cannot be broken. We each are giving honor to the Lord of Lords, and the King of Kings, each in a way which God honors and He always will.
He's not mad, neither is he absent. He's honored and shows up to be worshiped when unto Him, His children call, no matter the day or the hour. For it's the heart that He's attuned to; the heart which honors Him, Not the day, but the heart and in such worship, He is well pleased.
Sunday through Saturday, the days are His and in each moment, He is indeed present in each Sabbath for us all. For there is only 'one' Sabbath, and the Sabbath is Jesus Christ.
He is the Son we worship who created the sun which we worship not.
Yes...
He is. :Rose:
So like Jesus, both Saturday and Sunday, the 'Alpha and the Omega', the beginning and the end, we each have it covered, giving honor to Him, our Lord, Our Father, Our God. :Rose:
It' is an overflow of worship, which He brings it to a close with those who worship on Saturday, and brings it into a new beginning with those who worship on Sunday. Everything in between, is surrounded by those of us who stand on the 'wall' and maintain the standard of worship, on both Saturday and Sunday.
God said that He searched and could find no one who would stand on the wall and we who gather, answered His call. The high praises of Saturday overflow into Sunday and carry us into mid-week with Bible Study. The seal cannot be broken. We each are giving honor to the Lord of Lords, and the King of Kings, each in a way which God honors and He always will.
He's not mad, neither is he absent. He's honored and shows up to be worshiped when unto Him, His children call, no matter the day or the hour. For it's the heart that He's attuned to; the heart which honors Him, Not the day, but the heart and in such worship, He is well pleased.
Sunday through Saturday, the days are His and in each moment, He is indeed present in each Sabbath for us all. For there is only 'one' Sabbath, and the Sabbath is Jesus Christ.
He is the Son we worship who created the sun which we worship not.
Yes...
He is. :Rose:So like Jesus, both Saturday and Sunday, the 'Alpha and the Omega', the beginning and the end, we each have it covered, giving honor to Him, our Lord, Our Father, Our God. :Rose:
divya
Well-Known Member
It is very interesting that Hebrews 4 can be purported to mean that rest is in Jesus, so that Sabbath-keeping may be abandoned. Those verses confirm the necessity to keep the Sabbath.
Especially verses 8-10:
8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
It couldn't be more clear and straightforward. It clearly states that Jesus did not give rest, and that there remains a rest for God's people. Those of us who enter that rest stop our own work, just like God did.
What did God do? He worked 6 days and rested on the 7th day. Verse 11 then states:
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Especially verses 8-10:
8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
It couldn't be more clear and straightforward. It clearly states that Jesus did not give rest, and that there remains a rest for God's people. Those of us who enter that rest stop our own work, just like God did.
What did God do? He worked 6 days and rested on the 7th day. Verse 11 then states:
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
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divya
Well-Known Member
Interesting discussion thus far. I believe that there are different types of laws in the Scriptures, and that the verses that deal with esteeming days, meats etc. deal with the ceremonial law. It is a recurring theme in numerous New Testament books and tend to be spoken of together. The 7th day Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments, not the ceremonial law.
Now dealing with what Sabbath keeping is really all about...
The Scriptures give guidelines to help us keep the Sabbath holy. In order to fully experience the Sabbath and dedicate the time to honor our Creator, we are instructed to put away our worldly cares. Therefore, in that way, that generally does involve not cooking beforehand and not working etc. That is why the Ten Commandments specifically instructs us not to work. If you are consumed with worldly cares, your mind cannot truly be on the Creator. God gives us 6 days to do everything else we need to do. How much is it to ask of us to dedicate the 7th day to Him alone? He is our Maker, our Provider and King.
Jesus taught us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, and that legalism is unnecessary. So if you pick grapes for a starving person lying in the streets, that's in accordance with the Sabbath. That is different from just being too lazy to prepare a meal for yourself and family in preparation for the Sabbath. One is not legalistic by simply keeping the law, because we are suppose to keep the law out of our love of God.
John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Legalism largely deals with the idea that keeping the law is what constitutes salvation. The Jews became so obsessed with the law, thinking that with all the rules - many of which are not Scriptural - would earn them the salvation.
Also, if Jesus was not concerned with both inward understanding of the Sabbath and outward expression of the inner condition, then why did Jesus always keep the Sabbath? He showed us how to keep the Sabbath both inwardly and outwardly. Why is it acceptable to throw away part of His example as unnecessary for us today?
This quote at the end of the earlier article sums it up very nicely:
Let us make it plain that law keeping, even Sabbath-keeping, does not "justify" you, or make your past evil actions right with the Almighty. We are freely justified by grace, unmerited pardon, for our past sins. Being justified, we are commanded by the Eternal to obey Him in Spirit and in Truth. You cannot "keep" the Sabbath spiritually without also keeping it physically. To fail to answer specific questions about the Sabbath places us on the other side, the liberal side which tells the lie that all you have to do is keep the Sabbath in a right attitude and forget about the details. Let us be balanced.
Now dealing with what Sabbath keeping is really all about...
The Scriptures give guidelines to help us keep the Sabbath holy. In order to fully experience the Sabbath and dedicate the time to honor our Creator, we are instructed to put away our worldly cares. Therefore, in that way, that generally does involve not cooking beforehand and not working etc. That is why the Ten Commandments specifically instructs us not to work. If you are consumed with worldly cares, your mind cannot truly be on the Creator. God gives us 6 days to do everything else we need to do. How much is it to ask of us to dedicate the 7th day to Him alone? He is our Maker, our Provider and King.
Jesus taught us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, and that legalism is unnecessary. So if you pick grapes for a starving person lying in the streets, that's in accordance with the Sabbath. That is different from just being too lazy to prepare a meal for yourself and family in preparation for the Sabbath. One is not legalistic by simply keeping the law, because we are suppose to keep the law out of our love of God.
John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Legalism largely deals with the idea that keeping the law is what constitutes salvation. The Jews became so obsessed with the law, thinking that with all the rules - many of which are not Scriptural - would earn them the salvation.
Also, if Jesus was not concerned with both inward understanding of the Sabbath and outward expression of the inner condition, then why did Jesus always keep the Sabbath? He showed us how to keep the Sabbath both inwardly and outwardly. Why is it acceptable to throw away part of His example as unnecessary for us today?
This quote at the end of the earlier article sums it up very nicely:
Let us make it plain that law keeping, even Sabbath-keeping, does not "justify" you, or make your past evil actions right with the Almighty. We are freely justified by grace, unmerited pardon, for our past sins. Being justified, we are commanded by the Eternal to obey Him in Spirit and in Truth. You cannot "keep" the Sabbath spiritually without also keeping it physically. To fail to answer specific questions about the Sabbath places us on the other side, the liberal side which tells the lie that all you have to do is keep the Sabbath in a right attitude and forget about the details. Let us be balanced.
divya
Well-Known Member
I believe that we all agree that early Christians worshiped on Sunday. They also worshiped during the week. People are definitely free to worship God any day - and should worship every day.
The Sabbath, however, is not only about worship. The Scriptures states that you can only the 7th day is to be kept holy.
There is a difference between keeping a day holy and simply worshiping.
JinaRicci
New Member
I think when we have these discussions, some people feel that their worship on Sunday is being disregarded or considered less than worthy. Those who worship on Sabbath may feel discounted when there is talk of any day being the same.
These feelings get us hurt and defensive but we need to try and understand each other and come from a place of respect and humility. I need to work on this and I am sorry for causing any hurt.
I think all of us on this forum are living with the purpose of serving God and getting closer to Him. The fellowship here helps me to do that just like fellowshipping with my church family. Thank you so much for that.
We won't always agree because we have different beliefs. Let's still try to make an effort to not argue the Word. None of us can convict each other of anything anyway- we're not the Holy Spirit.
In this thread, a bit of historical info was presented for those who never heard. It seems that maybe everyone here already knew this... In any event, it is an interesting account.
Is it worth looking into? That's something only you can decide. Of course, those of us who keep the Sabbath will hope you do.
My prayer this morning is that we will just let the Holy Spirit continue to guide us as we serve Him.
These feelings get us hurt and defensive but we need to try and understand each other and come from a place of respect and humility. I need to work on this and I am sorry for causing any hurt.
I think all of us on this forum are living with the purpose of serving God and getting closer to Him. The fellowship here helps me to do that just like fellowshipping with my church family. Thank you so much for that.
We won't always agree because we have different beliefs. Let's still try to make an effort to not argue the Word. None of us can convict each other of anything anyway- we're not the Holy Spirit.
In this thread, a bit of historical info was presented for those who never heard. It seems that maybe everyone here already knew this... In any event, it is an interesting account.
Is it worth looking into? That's something only you can decide. Of course, those of us who keep the Sabbath will hope you do.
My prayer this morning is that we will just let the Holy Spirit continue to guide us as we serve Him.
GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I
New Member
That's not what I am saying. I'm studying into it right now with someone who can give me an hebraic understanding of that passage. Of course, that's part of it...but there's more to it. I'm more interested in the spirit of the Sabbath, not in the actual day of it. Like I mentioned before, non-Jews are not held to observe Saturday observance. That is for Jews. But man is called to honor Sabbath rest in G-d period....we're all clamoring to ascertain which day lol.
GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I
New Member
I believe that we all agree that early Christians worshiped on Sunday. They also worshiped during the week. People are definitely free to worship God any day - and should worship every day.
The Sabbath, however, is not only about worship. The Scriptures states that you can only the 7th day is to be kept holy.
There is a difference between keeping a day holy and simply worshiping.
Evidently, some of us here have not gotten the memo. I still encourage us to read all the scriptures that have been sent in by several posts. BTW, worship of G-d also means sitting down and doing nothing...it's the intent. I'm remembering my Shabbat-keeping days.
divya
Well-Known Member
Oh no, I didn't mean you, but it's a general teaching among many clergy as is that idea that the Sabbath is for the Jews. We can agree to disagree on that one.
divya
Well-Known Member
Maybe not. It can be easy to believe that it is an issue of worship - even T.D. Jakes had that one confused. Sure that's part of it, but definitely not all. Keeping Sabbath holy is something that is completely "set apart" from anything else, which I know you have experienced...
GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I
New Member
But that's just it...Jesus is L-rd of the Sabbath. He made it for man, not man for the Sabbath. The decalogue is G-d's revelation to man through the Hebrews....directly talking to THEM and all generations of THEM throughout the ages. Christians have been grafted into the vine...the curtain in the Temple torn...no longer separation. That doesn't mean Jews are invalid and that christians have to uphold Jewish law. Salvation is offered to all. Jesus provided the example. If we can argue that that revelation and prescribed mitzvot were all leading up to the Messiah and the spiritual meaning, the crux, the jist being returning to G-d in one's heart...how can we not see the spirit of the Sabbath spiritually? It's as though we want to subjugate Christ, the Redeemer of the world, under Saturday worship.
I don't have a problem with Shabbat for a variety of reasons. I kept it Jewishly. But I do have a problem when scripture is manipulated to say that those who do not worship on Saturday are somehow transgressing G-d. Jesus tells you you are not.
Interesting note: Sunday Sabbath in the RCC was absolutely mandated. People have grown away from the practice...but you weren't supposed to actually work on Sunday to be in good standing (not sure if considered a mortal sin or not) with church teaching. No one's saying that we shouldn't devote a day...but Christ is the head. Some prefer Saturday, some prefer the L-rd's Day.
Jews don't go by "scripture" concerning mitzvot and ritual laws...that's a protestant invention.... Oral law, tradition, scripture....can't divide it.
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Sharpened
A fleck on His Sword
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Being deceived as a believer is a terrifying prospect; that they were not good enough to be a part of the "elect." I come before you as someone who has been deceived many times. Does that mean I am unworthy? No, it means that I refuse to remain in the deception God has revealed to me. As long as we are in this yucky flesh, we are subject to being tricked at all times. Dealing with deception is only a part of the "pruning" we receive to grow in the manner he wants us to.
He made a commandment to set aside a certain day to be still and pull away from the world. The Apostles obeyed it. Why shouldn't we?
Being deceived as a believer is a terrifying prospect; that they were not good enough to be a part of the "elect." I come before you as someone who has been deceived many times. Does that mean I am unworthy? No, it means that I refuse to remain in the deception God has revealed to me. As long as we are in this yucky flesh, we are subject to being tricked at all times. Dealing with deception is only a part of the "pruning" we receive to grow in the manner he wants us to.
He made a commandment to set aside a certain day to be still and pull away from the world. The Apostles obeyed it. Why shouldn't we?
And it's today, dear Nymphe. Chapters 3 and 4 of Hebrews are great to study. Not one or two isolated verses, but the whole chapters with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Heb. 4.7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
With Jesus-Christ, a day has nothing in common with the priesthood.
1Cor. 3.16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 3.17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Cor. 6.17 6.17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 6.19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 6.20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1Pet. 2.5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
2.9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Heb. 13.15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Eph. 2.21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 2.22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
divya
Well-Known Member
This is so true. For every commandment or principle that God has given to us, Satan has created counterfeits or forms of deception.
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
The devil has created false gods, not just religions but things in our lives that can consume us to the point that they become gods.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Graven images abound in many religions, even in certain branches of Christianity.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
The devil has created havoc here, as God's name is taken in vain, and there are even terms stem from taking God's name in vain that are made to seem not as bad. Deception.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
The devil has created a counterfeit day -the first day - that God did not set apart by resting, blessing and hallowing it.
5.Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
The devil has consistently attacked the family structure, turning children against parents and vice versa.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
Murder is everywhere. People even make heroes out of warmongers because the devil has made murder look acceptable.
7.Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Satan has destroyed so many marriages, making some feel adultery is justified in certain cases. Some even believe that humans are not made to be monogamous.
8.Thou shalt not steal.
Stealing is everywhere. Some feel is it justified to steal from the poor...or the rich. Deception.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Lying is rampant. The Devil has created the idea of the "little white lie." Many believe that some lies are permissible.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Many cultures promote coveting what others have. Many people are always attempting to "Keep up with the Joneses."
It is all part of a great deception. We have to be careful and keep our eyes on the Lord and His principles.
Let's be vigilant and not say something just to justify our doctrine. King James translated it Jesus, but it's clear that it is not about Jesus : Jesus-Christ, but Jesus : Joshua who entered in the land of Canaan.
Heb. 3.15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 3.16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 3.17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 3.18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 3.19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
New KJV version :
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
divya
Well-Known Member
I agree. The seventh day Sabbath is consistent with the entire Scriptures. Hebrews 4 is consistent with every other Scripture concerning the Sabbath. Amazing that the New King James Version changed verse 8 from Jesus to Joshua! Wow!
Hebrews 4- KJV
1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
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My last :
Heb. 7.12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
9.11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
9.15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 9.16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 9.17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
10.14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 10.15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 10.16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb. 10.19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 10.20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 10.21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 10.22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb. 3.6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Blessing to all!
Heb. 7.12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
9.11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
9.15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 9.16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 9.17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
10.14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 10.15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 10.16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb. 10.19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 10.20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 10.21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 10.22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb. 3.6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Blessing to all!
Sharpened
A fleck on His Sword
When do we do our work, then?
Yes, worship is an ongoing thing; that is not being debated. A part of worship is obedience, is it not? Are we to change the day He made Holy, to free ourselves from fleshly distractions?
GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I
New Member
I'm not understanding about verse 8. Joshua means "G-d will save" whereas Yeshua means "G-d is salvation." They are two different names and meanings.
divya
Well-Known Member
The KJV says Jesus and the NKJV says Joshua. Why did the NKJV feel the need to change it I wonder? Hmmmmm....
They both have the same meaning, Sweetie. Those two sames are one in the same.
:Rose:
GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I
New Member
I checked another version and it's Joshua. Would make sense...they weren't talking about Jesus. What is it in the Greek or Aramaic? Anybody know? But those two names have different meanings.
GV-NA-GI-TLV-GE-I
New Member
They both have the same meaning, Sweetie. Those two sames are one in the same.
Well, in Hebrew...Joshua (Yehoshua) means "G-d will save" and "Yeshua" means "G-d IS salvation." Those are different names and meanings. I'm thinking of the prophecies that His name will mean salvation. But Yehoshua definitely points to Yeshua. Jesus wouldn't be "G-d will save" because He had come so He would be "Salvation." I'm just thinking out loud......
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aribell
formerly nicola.kirwan
In order for that interpretation to be correct, that entire passage would need to be about keeping the Sabbath in traditional Jewish ways. But that goes against what the broader context of the book is saying, particularly given that Paul then goes on to speak of Jesus being the fulfillment of other Jewish laws, meaning that those laws no longer need to be carried out in the same manner as before. The letter to the Hebrews on the whole is about Jesus as the fulfillment of the old testament laws. It is written to Hebrews to help them understand why they no longer need the temple, the sacrifices, the holy days of obligation because Christ has fulfilled all—not done away with it all, but fulfilled it all.
I think that more of it needs to be unpacked.
“And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.” (Heb. 3:18-19)
The disobedience of which the author speaks is specifically related to not having faith in the Gospel, not Sabbath-day observance: "Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest." (4:1-3) Here, he links entering into God’s rest to embracing the Gospel. Further, he says that
For if Joshua had given them rest. Sometimes translated as “Jesus” but better and more accurate translations translate it as Joshua, which actually is less confusing, as the author of Hebrews is not talking about Jesus here, but rather Joshua of the Old Testament. And as it has been mentioned, the names are connected. Joshua is a pre-figure of Christ, as one who was leading God's people into the promised land. (Moreover, it it’s not just one errant interpretation (NKJV) that “changed” it from Jesus to Joshua. It’s the King James that was not correct, which is a point that is fairly well established in biblical scholarship. We need to be careful of creating doctrines around one particular interpretation of Scripture.)
Why would the author of Hebrews mention Joshua giving them rest, saying that Joshua had not actually given them rest? Because Joshua was the leader who led God’s people into the Promised Land. For the Hebrews, Canaan would have been their rest and blessing. The disobedient Israelites who died in the wilderness failed to enter into the Promised Land. But even more than that, those who did enter it still did not receive God’s ultimate rest. By quoting the passage saying that there is yet another day and another rest, the Hebrews author is saying that even after God’s people entered the promised land, they still did not have rest, which led David to write in the Psalms: “If today you hear His voice, harden not your hearts.”
In David’s time, the people of God had already gotten to the Promised Land, and yet they had not truly entered into God’s rest because they were still disobedient. Thus, the author says, “There remains a rest for the people of God.” When he says that God designates “a certain day,” he does not say that that day is a particular day of the week, but rather that that “certain” day is “Today.” He is speaking not about calendar observances, but about coming to belief in the gospel today. Today, be obedient to Christ. Today enter into God’s rest.
Some have not entered into the rest because they have not embraced the gospel in faith. Again, the author said “for we who have believed do enter that rest.” We enter that rest when we believe. When the author says, “For there remains a rest for the people of God,” he is reiterating the point that the covenant of old did not ultimately bring rest to the people of God. But that rest is available now, and some have experienced it already, as he says:“For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.”
Now, in all the NT, is the act of “ceasing from works” ever tied to physical labor, jobs, cooking, etc? Not at all. Wherever “works” are mentioned, they refer to the actions associated with the Jewish tradition to obtain righteousness before God. We are to cease striving for acceptance before God through our own efforts; i.e, we are to come to faith in Christ through the preaching of the Gospel.
Rest is not something we do, but something that God gives us, allows us to enter into through faith in Christ. If Jesus did not bring us rest, then there’s no rest to be had at all!
God’s mysteries are wonderful.
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aribell
formerly nicola.kirwan
To be honest, I find the implication that non-Saturday observers have some kind of agenda to get rid of the Sabbath to be rather odd. Biblical translators are not sitting around trying to figure out ways of eliminating the Sabbath from the Bible. In the grand scheme of the Christian life, resting on Saturday would hardly be the challenging part.
I think a lot of people (including the devil!) would sooner change the Bible's meaning to allow for fornication, adultery, and homosexuality before changing it to mean that we don't have to rest on Saturday. Again, we're all seeking to be obedient to God here.
Also, from today's viewpoint, keeping Sabbath on Saturday (or keeping it in traditonal ways at all) looks like a desire to be more faithful to the radical call of the law. But when the Hebrews heard these messages, the idea of traditional observance no longer being in effect was radical to them. The idea that so much of how they observed the law and related themselves to God was radically changed by Jesus Christ was a stumbling block for some. They had difficulty accepting Christ as the fulfillment of the law. So we shouldn't feel a need to bring back Sabbath/Saturday observance as a way of being faithful to the law. If we get stuck on that point, we're doing the same thing that that Hebrews did when the Gospel was first preached to them.
I think a lot of people (including the devil!) would sooner change the Bible's meaning to allow for fornication, adultery, and homosexuality before changing it to mean that we don't have to rest on Saturday. Again, we're all seeking to be obedient to God here.
Also, from today's viewpoint, keeping Sabbath on Saturday (or keeping it in traditonal ways at all) looks like a desire to be more faithful to the radical call of the law. But when the Hebrews heard these messages, the idea of traditional observance no longer being in effect was radical to them. The idea that so much of how they observed the law and related themselves to God was radically changed by Jesus Christ was a stumbling block for some. They had difficulty accepting Christ as the fulfillment of the law. So we shouldn't feel a need to bring back Sabbath/Saturday observance as a way of being faithful to the law. If we get stuck on that point, we're doing the same thing that that Hebrews did when the Gospel was first preached to them.
JinaRicci
New Member
Hey Nicola, that's an interesting viewpoint. To me it's not Christians who are worshipping on Sunday who have this agenda. No... Your desire is to serve God.
This thing was put into place a long time ago. Let's face it- a deception is easier accepted when it's not so obvious and over time it becomes even easier. Adultery etc. those things are moral issues as well that are not acceptable to some people who aren't even Christians. Also- Christian or not, we're trying to keep the law radically as law-abiding citizens (well for the most part
). We don't want to kill, lie or commit adultery...On keeping the Sabbath- it can be challenging and many people use this very reason to avoid even trying to keep it. There are things that you do have to sacrifice. People run into problems with jobs that require them to work on the Sabbath. There are many things that take place on Saturday and you quickly realize just how many things once you start. As a student, you wouldn't study either-even for that exam you know you're not ready for!! But I can tell you stories of things that I have gone through- "sacrifices" that I made- even as a student- and God blessed me in the end. With Him all things truly are possible.
The question is why did they change the day? What's the significance of this move? And did God warns us that this would happen?
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