Lord Help us All

[LucieLoo12]

I took this from out the ET thread because I did not want to deal with that over there, but would like to discuss it here


Pope: 'Who am I to judge' gay people?

By Anne Thompson and Henry Austin, NBC News


Pope Francis on Monday said “who am I to judge?” gay people as he discussed one of the most divisive issues affecting the Catholic Church.

“I have yet to find anyone who has a business card that says he is gay,” the pontiff said at a press conference in which he addressed the reports of a "gay lobby" within the Vatican.

“They say they exist. If someone is gay, who searches for the Lord and has goodwill, who am I to judge?” he added. "The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this very well. It says they should not be marginalized because of this (orientation) but that they must be integrated into society."

"The problem is not having this orientation. We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation, or lobbies of greedy people, political lobbies, Masonic lobbies, so many lobbies. This is the worse problem," he said.

The press conference, which lasted for an hour and 20 minutes, was held during the flight back from his week-long trip to Brazil.

Father Thomas J. Reece, a senior analyst at the National Catholic Reporter, said he thought Francis meant that "if a person is a homosexual and that person is trying to live a good life, it’s not our place to judge them."

"This is very significant I think,” he said. “I think that recently under Pope Benedict there was a move to say that homosexuals could not be priests, that if they were seminarians they should be thrown out," he said.

“I think that Pope Francis is saying something quite different here.

Whether you’re a homosexual or a heterosexual the question is whether they can live a celibate life. Other things coming out of Rome were quite different, just a few years ago," he added.

 

[sweetvi]

Yeah.... I saw that and ......


erplexed

 

[LucieLoo12]

Here is my 2 cents


I am really tired of people using this "dont judge me" stuff. And I really disgusted at this comment by the Pope. Who are you to judge? The question he should have asked is "Who am I to inform the people about the laws and standard of God? Um, isn't that your job?



I will be back to post more

 

[sweetvi]

The thing that gets me is how people pick and choose what they think makes them feel comfortable from the bible, but fails to finish reading the entire scripture and/or book.

There are several scriptures that indicates judge righteously, to test the spirits, to use discernment, and to not be led astray! However, IMO, I am always labeled judgmental and right winged?! I usually answer with take it up to GOD when you die why homosexuality is a sin and they will not enter heaven if they haven't repented. I did not write the bible....

 

[Galadriel]

Be careful ladies, the MSM has run away with Pope Francis's statement and distorted its true context.

The Catechism teaches that you haven't sinned by having a homosexual orientation, but you DO sin when you act on it (gay sex). This is what Pope Francis was referring to when he spoke of them being integrated into society and being welcomed in the Church. We all have sins and weaknesses we are dealing with, yet we are all called to overcome sin through Christ.

“They say they exist. If someone is gay, who searches for the Lord and has goodwill, who am I to judge?”

There are many Catholics struggling w/ homosexuality who strive to follow Church teaching and do not engage in homosexual sex, do not advocate it, and regularly go to Church and confession. THESE are the ones Francis is referring to--because they are clearly seeking God and striving to do His will. In fact, a Catholic ministry called "Courage" has recently held an event where they helped ministered to Catholics struggling with homosexuality and encourage them to live by Church teaching and remain chaste.

I would have liked to see where CNN was when Pope Francis said about gay marriage:

"At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts. Let us not be naive: This is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy God’s plan. It [pro-gay marriage bill] is not just a bill (a mere instrument) but a ‘move’ of the father of lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

Sounds like he has some judgment going on there.

Whenever MSM says "Pope Francis Said X" I always go and research first to read his actual words and not just what CNN or the New York Times said he did. It's the same thing with the "Pope Francis Says Everyone Is Saved"--he didn't say that, yet once again, they distorted his words to fit their own agenda.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

Ill go read before I comment...

 

[LucieLoo12]

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/wo.../2013/07/29/ns-pope-gay-not-a-crime-women.cnn

 

[Galadriel]

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/wo.../2013/07/29/ns-pope-gay-not-a-crime-women.cnn

And the problem with that was...?

Being gay (i.e., having same sex attraction) isn't committing a sin. And if a gay person is striving to live a Christian life and not engage in gay sex, then that's a good thing, right?

Same sex attraction (or homosexual orientation) is a disordered desire, but is not a sin. Engaging in homosexual sex is a sin.

Being tempted to drink alcohol when one knows he has a weakness for alcohol abuse isn't a sin, but engaging in alcohol abuse is sinful.

 

[JudithO]

Be careful ladies, the MSM has run away with Pope Francis's statement and distorted its true context.

The Catechism teaches that you haven't sinned by having a homosexual orientation, but you DO sin when you act on it (gay sex). This is what Pope Francis was referring to when he spoke of them being integrated into society and being welcomed in the Church. We all have sins and weaknesses we are dealing with, yet we are all called to overcome sin through Christ.

There are many Catholics struggling w/ homosexuality who strive to follow Church teaching and do not engage in homosexual sex, do not advocate it, and regularly go to Church and confession. THESE are the ones Francis is referring to--because they are clearly seeking God and striving to do His will. In fact, a Catholic ministry called "Courage" has recently held an event where they helped ministered to Catholics struggling with homosexuality and encourage them to live by Church teaching and remain chaste.

I would have liked to see where CNN was when Pope Francis said about gay marriage:

"At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts. Let us not be naive: This is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy God’s plan. It [pro-gay marriage bill] is not just a bill (a mere instrument) but a ‘move’ of the father of lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

Sounds like he has some judgment going on there.

Whenever MSM says "Pope Francis Said X" I always go and research first to read his actual words and not just what CNN or the New York Times said he did. It's the same thing with the "Pope Francis Says Everyone Is Saved"--he didn't say that, yet once again, they distorted his words to fit their own agenda.

THIS!!!!

I agree with the Pope completely.... Christ engaged with prostitutes and never judged them, doesn't mean he condones prostitution. As Christians we can condemn the act of engaging in homosexual sex, like we condemn all other sins.... But we MUST be careful to not judge those who are attracted to people of the same sex... That goes against what Christ teaches us to do.

 

[aribell]

THIS!!!!

I agree with the Pope completely.... Christ engaged with prostitutes and never judged them, doesn't mean he condones prostitution. As Christians we can condemn the act of engaging in homosexual sex, like we condemn all other sins.... But we MUST be careful to not judge those who are attracted to people of the same sex... That goes against what Christ teaches us to do.

I don't think that all Christians have embraced this, which is where much of the rub is. There is the idea that anyone who truly repents and seeks help will be healed of those disordered desires. While there is healing available, like with anything else, how and when it will come (and whether it will be in this life or the next) depends on what the Lord does in that individual's heart.

I think that the world may have been receiving the wrong message from a lot of believers--that simply having those attractions means you're bad, damned, etc...well, no more so than anyone else, or rather, just like everyone else born after the Fall. The question is whether we will commit ourselves to righteousness by God's grace.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

I read it... I'm sorry, but what he said is still wrong. This might sound ugly but its in love because I can't agree with what he said and we have to speak the truth in love. This is not an attack on anyone who is Catholic, although I know how it will be received. Now... We can sit here and say all the cute things we want about how the sexual sin is in the homosexual act itself. The Bible disagrees with such a theory. Romans 1 refers to homosexual orientation as a vile affection. Jesus also says in Matthew that lust in the heart means you pretty much have committed the act. That's something people need to be delivered from, and sitting them in a church doing religious stuff will not cleanse their heart of the vile desire for the same sex! That has to be a real cause of suffering for homosexuals to be forced to deal with that type of torment.

There were former homosexuals amongst the first believers and Paul says they were washed, cleansed, sanctified, justified by the blood of Jesus. That's why Jesus died, to completely purge a person of inordinate and vile affections, not for them to stay in it and have a "homosexual orientation" while staying away from the act. That's not deliverance, it's bondage. Why amongst the early believers was there Holy Ghost power for people to be delivered but in this dried up junk called church people are forced to be bound to backwards desires and told to do religious stuff and that will cleanse them? Thats foolishness. But accommodation has to be made because of the fact that so much sodomy is going on, not just in the Catholic church but others as well. You can't be in covenant with sin and get people delivered. You can't be in covenant with sin and take a real stand against it. Homosexuality is demonic and Satan can't cast out Satan. If the so called church world was purged of homosexuals most of them would cease to function. This is why people in "church" are disempowered to stand up and come against this in the power and authority if the Holy Spirit. There was no need to twist his words... What he said was still wrong. I really feel for homosexuals... It breaks my heart for them to be told they have to be bound to a the desires for the same sex and not act on them. Some of these people want real deliverance and they will never find it in most churches. I don't care how much emphasis is put on so called chastity and holiness, if these people aren't delivered from the demonic stronghold you will have a church fool of ravening homosexuals and all kinds of sexual sin and filth and this is exactly what we're seeing.

 

[aribell]

Regarding vile affections, let's say there is a man, a straight man, who is often tempted to lust after women. Even if he sins and repents, or just continues to have the temptation, no one will say that he is damned because of it. Scripture does say that we are tempted because of what is in our heart, and yet temptation is not sin.

Someone who is gay has a temptation they have to deal with--a form of lust, whether it be in the heart or the act. A lustful heart is wrong regardless of one's gender or the gender of the person toward whom its directed. If one does not give into the temptation to lust or to fornicate, there is no sin.

 

[LucieLoo12]

And the problem with that was...?

Being gay (i.e., having same sex attraction) isn't committing a sin. And if a gay person is striving to live a Christian life and not engage in gay sex, then that's a good thing, right?

Same sex attraction (or homosexual orientation) is a disordered desire, but is not a sin. Engaging in homosexual sex is a sin.

Being tempted to drink alcohol when one knows he has a weakness for alcohol abuse isn't a sin, but engaging in alcohol abuse is sinful.

If you are homosexual and you are striving to live for Christ, He will purify your heart to where you no longer desire it. I'm not saying homosexual can't come to God, but when they come , God is going to change them. Do you think Christ would leave something in your heart that can eventually lead you to sin? He came to not just cleanse us from the act of sin, but the desire from it as well


I just don't know where these statements originate from because they are not biblical..,

 

[LucieLoo12]

Regarding vile affections, let's say there is a man, a straight man, who is often tempted to lust after women. Even if he sins and repents, or just continues to have the temptation, no one will say that he is damned because of it. Scripture does say that we are tempted because of what is in our heart, and yet temptation is not sin.

Someone who is gay has a temptation they have to deal with--a form of lust, whether it be in the heart or the act. A lustful heart is wrong regardless of one's gender or the gender of the person toward whom its directed. If one does not give into the temptation to lust or to fornicate, there is no sin.

This is the scripture you are referring to, but you must expound on the WHOLE scripture.

James 1:14-15

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

If there is a lust there it will be fulfilled. People think they have control over their urges and desires, but they dont. You have to have the power of the holy ghost to control that inner man. And the Holy Ghost will purge things out of your heart, not leave them there. The holy ghost reproves sin and leads you into TRUTH.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

I don't think that all Christians have embraced this, which is where much of the rub is. There is the idea that anyone who truly repents and seeks help will be healed of those disordered desires. While there is healing available, like with anything else, how and when it will come (and whether it will be in this life or the next) depends on what the Lord does in that individual's heart.

I think that the world may have been receiving the wrong message from a lot of believers--that simply having those attractions means you're bad, damned, etc...well, no more so than anyone else, or rather, just like everyone else born after the Fall. The question is whether we will commit ourselves to righteousness by God's grace.

Hi NK. I do think there has to balance but there also has to be truth. It seems that most people don't really believer in the power of God to deliver people. I do... Because I have been delivered from a lot. There is the Fred Phelps extreme which says homosexuals are damned because they are reprobates and can't be saved, which is wicked. Then there is the extreme which leaves people bound and gives them a false deliverance by telling them to stop the act and do religious stuff which is also wicked... The truth is that we have to be born again and Jesus then has to take a person through a process of reformatting their mind, sanctifying them from the old life. Saying that there are Christians with homosexual orientation means only one thing, that person is not born again. I have a *very* close family member who is a lesbian. And I love her. But I don't cut corners with her. I tell her the truth. And while she hasn't repented, she loves and respects me. There is a way to deal with such people in love and let them know they don't have to be bound.

I must be the odd man out because I believe in the power of God to deliver from us from sin. That's why Jesus came. Homosexuals are not harder to be delivered than those living in other sexual sin. All sexual sin (and sin period) is hard to be free from but the anointing of the Holy Ghost will loose the bands of wickedness for a person who wants to be free. Seems like people don't have faith in Christ for real deliverance. That's where my issue comes in with most professing Christians and the excuse being made for why there are so many homosexual is churches.

 

[LucieLoo12]

THIS!!!!

I agree with the Pope completely.... Christ engaged with prostitutes and never judged them, doesn't mean he condones prostitution. As Christians we can condemn the act of engaging in homosexual sex, like we condemn all other sins.... But we MUST be careful to not judge those who are attracted to people of the same sex... That goes against what Christ teaches us to do.

I dont judge them at all nor do I look down on them. I may have never been gay, but I have been very low before and entangled in all types of sin. But I don't make them feel they have to be stuck in that condition and I make them aware that Christ does not approve it. I have never approached a homosexual and said " You going to burn in hell you wicked evil person" NOR is that my mind towards them. But I come to them in the spirit of love, letting them know they can be set free. That God can give them power over that.

 

[aribell]

Yes, there is definitely a process of sanctification. Are we prepared to tell someone how long it will take? Will we tell them it will be instantaneous? Will it take 3 months? A year? 5 years before they are completely purified?

What is their "status" in the time between when they seek the Lord and receive their complete purification and healing?

The fact that we cannot answer that question is, I think, a large part of the underlying reasoning for the statements that were made. If the person is seeking God, he said, then they are in His hands and, of course, He is working things out in them. Now, who will determine the timeline and exactly when it will happen? I think the Lord alone has that answer, as it is His Spirit that is working in that person.

This is the scripture you are referring to, but you must expound on the WHOLE scripture.

James 1:14-15

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

If there is a lust there it will be fulfilled. People think they have control over their urges and desires, but they dont. You have to have the power of the holy ghost to control that inner man. And the Holy Ghost will purge things out of your heart, not leave them there. The holy ghost reproves sin and leads you into TRUTH.

Right. I said that all lust is wrong. To have a temptation is not to have lust. As you highlighted, when lust--not temptation--has conceived, it brings forth sin. It seems that you are equating temptation with lust and they are not the same.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

Regarding vile affections, let's say there is a man, a straight man, who is often tempted to lust after women. Even if he sins and repents, or just continues to have the temptation, no one will say that he is damned because of it. Scripture does say that we are tempted because of what is in our heart, and yet temptation is not sin.

Someone who is gay has a temptation they have to deal with--a form of lust, whether it be in the heart or the act. A lustful heart is wrong regardless of one's gender or the gender of the person toward whom its directed. If one does not give into the temptation to lust or to fornicate, there is no sin.

I absolutely agree. The enemy is going to tempt people with what he knows is their weakness. However, its normal for a man to like, or have a natural attraction to a woman and vice versa. But an attraction to the same sex is a vile attraction, demonic at the root and must be dealt with as such. All lust is sin. Natural, God-given attraction is not. I think those are 2 totally different things. Meditating on illicit sex is wrong no matter who does it. The devil may tempt a person with something if they resist him while being fully submitted to God he will flee. When the devil is not fleeing and a person is struggling and being tempted for years with the same thing, somewhere they are not resisting. They are giving in. That's why I don't believe a person truly born again will have to continue to operate with a "homosexual orientation".

 

[Galadriel]

MrsHaseeb

We neither teach nor believe that a homosexual orientation is innocuous. We categorize it as a disordered desire. It's a disordered desire because it deviates from the proper order God has mandated for sex and its place and purpose (marriage & procreation between a man and woman).

Homosexual attraction isn't the only disordered desire among human beings. We have all kinds of disordered desires and predispositions.

Homosexual attraction is disordered, but homosexual sex (or engaging in lustful thoughts) is sinful.

A sin is a thought, behavior, or action that violates God's moral law. An orientation is not a thought or behavior or action. While the feeling or desire itself is disordered, it is not a sin. However, if a homosexual were to engage in lustful thoughts or sexual behavior, it would be a sin.

I'm a heterosexual woman, so I guess my orientation would be heterosexual, but that doesn't automatically make me virtuous. While my heterosexual orientation makes my attraction to men "properly ordered," if I lust after a man other than my husband (thoughts) or engage in adultery (behavior/action), then I am sinning.

I am not making these arguments just to poke a stick in your eye, but I just want to clearly explain my beliefs as well as show concern for Catholics and Christians who struggle with same sex attraction who agree with what the Bible teaches and reject engaging in homosexual sex, and who are fighting to live a Christian life.

Do some people with same sex attraction go through counseling or ministry and move on to get married to someone of the opposite sex? Yes. And bless them for it.

Not all go on to get married, and if they don't marry, then at least let them live chastely. And by living a chaste life, it involves more than simply abstaining from sex, it integrates the full person, and in giving themselves to Christ fully in chastity, there they will find their freedom and deliverance.

I read it... I'm sorry, but what he said is still wrong. This might sound ugly but its in love because I can't agree with what he said and we have to speak the truth in love. This is not an attack on anyone who is Catholic, although I know how it will be received. Now... We can sit here and say all the cute things we want about how the sexual sin is in the homosexual act itself. The Bible disagrees with such a theory. Romans 1 refers to homosexual orientation as a vile affection. Jesus also says in Matthew that lust in the heart means you pretty much have committed the act. That's something people need to be delivered from, and sitting them in a church doing religious stuff will not cleanse their heart of the vile desire for the same sex! That has to be a real cause of suffering for homosexuals to be forced to deal with that type of torment.

There were former homosexuals amongst the first believers and Paul says they were washed, cleansed, sanctified, justified by the blood of Jesus. That's why Jesus died, to completely purge a person of inordinate and vile affections, not for them to stay in it and have a "homosexual orientation" while staying away from the act. That's not deliverance, it's bondage. Why amongst the early believers was there Holy Ghost power for people to be delivered but in this dried up junk called church people are forced to be bound to backwards desires and told to do religious stuff and that will cleanse them? Thats foolishness. But accommodation has to be made because of the fact that so much sodomy is going on, not just in the Catholic church but others as well. You can't be in covenant with sin and get people delivered. You can't be in covenant with sin and take a real stand against it. Homosexuality is demonic and Satan can't cast out Satan. If the so called church world was purged of homosexuals most of them would cease to function. This is why people in "church" are disempowered to stand up and come against this in the power and authority if the Holy Spirit. There was no need to twist his words... What he said was still wrong. I really feel for homosexuals... It breaks my heart for them to be told they have to be bound to a the desires for the same sex and not act on them. Some of these people want real deliverance and they will never find it in most churches. I don't care how much emphasis is put on so called chastity and holiness, if these people aren't delivered from the demonic stronghold you will have a church fool of ravening homosexuals and all kinds of sexual sin and filth and this is exactly what we're seeing.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

Yes, there is definitely a process of sanctification. Are we prepared to tell someone how long it will take? Will we tell them it will be instantaneous? Will it take 3 months? A year? 5 years before they are completely purified?

What is their "status" in the time between when they seek the Lord and receive their complete purification and healing?

The fact that we cannot answer that question is, I think, a large part of the underlying reasoning for the statements that were made. If the person is seeking God, he said, then they are in His hands and, of course, He is working things out in them. Now, who will determine the timeline and exactly when it will happen? I think the Lord alone has that answer, as it is His Spirit that is working in that person.

Right. I said that all lust is wrong. To have a temptation is not to have lust. As you highlighted, when lust--not temptation--has conceived, it brings forth sin. It seems that you are equating temptation with lust and they are not the same.

Modern Christianity has become hopeless when we feel we have to leave people bound to these types of things. Does nobody have the power to pray for deliverance for these people and have real faith that it will happen?! Even the so called successor of Peter who was so anointed his shadow healed and cast out demons? The same Peter who raised a dead woman? The God who parted the red sea, raised people from the dead, healed the lame and maimed, opened blind eyes and cleansed lepers has to leave a homosexual bound to inordinate desires? What god is this?? It cant be the one i serve. This breaks my heart. Homosexuality is no different from heterosexual fornication. Its just as hard to stop heterosexual fornication, porn addiction, or masturbation. Are we really saying a homosexual can't have a truly born again experience where they can be instantly free? Most professing Christians have bought into the lie of the gay agenda... That's homosexuality is so hard to be delivered from that it may never happen...No wonder the world doesn't take God seriously. Professing Christians don't even take the power of God seriously.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

MrsHaseeb

We neither teach nor believe that a homosexual orientation is innocuous. We categorize it as a disordered desire. It's a disordered desire because it deviates from the proper order God has mandated for sex and its place and purpose (marriage & procreation between a man and woman).

Homosexual attraction isn't the only disordered desire among human beings. We have all kinds of disordered desires and predispositions.

Homosexual attraction is disordered, but homosexual sex (or engaging in lustful thoughts) is sinful.

A sin is a thought, behavior, or action that violates God's moral law. An orientation is not a thought or behavior or action. While the feeling or desire itself is disordered, it is not a sin. However, if a homosexual were to engage in lustful thoughts or sexual behavior, it would be a sin.

I'm a heterosexual woman, so I guess my orientation would be heterosexual, but that doesn't automatically make me virtuous. While my heterosexual orientation makes my attraction to men "properly ordered," if I lust after a man other than my husband (thoughts) or engage in adultery (behavior/action), then I am sinning.

I am not making these arguments just to poke a stick in your eye, but I just want to clearly explain my beliefs as well as show concern for Catholics and Christians who struggle with same sex attraction who agree with what the Bible teaches and reject engaging in homosexual sex, and who are fighting to live a Christian life.

Do some people with same sex attraction go through counseling or ministry and move on to get married to someone of the opposite sex? Yes. And bless them for it.

Not all go on to get married, and if they don't marry, then at least let them live chastely. And by living a chaste life, it involves more than simply abstaining from sex, it integrates the full person, and in giving themselves to Christ fully in chastity, there they will find their freedom and deliverance.

I understand everything you said. But this is not the old covenant. We are under the new covenant where the.power of the Holy Spirit is available to all who repents. There is no excuse for this. Homosexual desire is demonic. The reason that person has disordered desires is not due to some mental disorder, it's due to a demon. I know this is going to cause some offense and thats unfortunate but it needs to be said. The reason the Catholic church, along with many protestant churches say being a homosexual isn't a sin and only the act is is because of the huge amount of homosexuals operating within their churches, many times as leaders. That's just not Biblical. Doesn't matter what someones church doctrine says. Christ didnt die for people to be living as homosexuals for years and years. This is why there is so much sin in churches, everybody is making excuses for it and trying to change people outwardly and not dealing with the desires. This is why we have priests sodomizing children and people like Eddie Long and other protestants doing the same thing right in what professes to be a church. I'm done... This is so disheartening. I must work out my own salvation. Ill leave all the people who want to remain deceived by false doctrine to themselves.

 

[Galadriel]

Homosexuality is no different from heterosexual fornication.

But look at what you just did--you just equated the orientation with the act of fornication. An orientation isn't an action.

Its just as hard to stop heterosexual fornication, porn addiction, or masturbation.

Fornication is engaging in sex outside of marriage between two unmarried persons.

Pornography is engaging in lustful thoughts as well as participating in the exploitation of people and stripping them of their dignity.

Masturbation is the physical stimulation of one's self for sexual pleasure.

All of these are actions or behaviors which are sinful. If one were to have gay sex, it would also be sinful.

Are we really saying a homosexual can't have a truly born again experience where they can be instantly free?

I believe a person can be freed, yes. They can find that freedom through the transforming grace of Jesus Christ. For some, it's instant, for others it's a fight they must fight for a while. If they find a spouse, then good. If they remain chaste, then good.

Most professing Christians have bought into the lie of the gay agenda...

Hey, you're talking to the lady who got jumped on a couple of weeks ago in OT for saying homosexual sex was a perversion of what sex should be .

That's homosexuality is so hard to be delivered from that it may never happen...

I don't think anyone has said or advocated that. At least I haven't.

 

[BEAUTYU2U]

Here is my 2 cents

I am really tired of people using this "dont judge me" stuff. And I really disgusted at this comment by the Pope. Who are you to judge? The question he should have asked is "Who am I to inform the people about the laws and standard of God? Um, isn't that your job?

I will be back to post more

I think those are two separate issues. Informing, yes. Judging, no.

 

[felic1]

LucieLoo12... uh yes the truth of the word of God is the responsibility of any able minister of the new testament. Can he not tell people the truth in love? God hates sin. Not people.

 

[JaneBond007]

There are many Catholics struggling w/ homosexuality who strive to follow Church teaching and do not engage in homosexual sex, do not advocate it, and regularly go to Church and confession. .

I agree...and further....



I should have placed my first response here, just now saw it. Well, that's not totally true either. Yes, they do engage in homosexual sex...just that they repent of it and try, try again to remain chaste. This is something so many christians do not want to believe. But they (heterosexuals) are not weighing their own sins on the same scales. Homosexuals in Christ are no more called into chastity than liars are called to truth-telling and thieves to retribution and charity. Somehow, this is the disgust, fear and veiled hatred I sense against the gay community...or community of gay people, if you can truly call it that. There are support groups for gays in the church (as there are for divorcees, single parents, singles wishing to marry etc.) and I'm not pointing to those who promote the lifestyle of acts. But there is a very palpable hatred and disgust for gay people. I am proud that Pope Francis is our Vicar. We need to stop judging people for their sexual orientations as we do not know why they have them. We don't likewise know why some people have the orientation towards adultery, abuse, criminality etc. either.

As for instant delivery, well, that can have very different outcomes. The most common is a lifetime of mortifications of the flesh, failing and repenting. It is most likely (for the catholic) a life of sadness, longing, desiring of a relationship. If those people should marry heterosexually, I wouldn't advise it at all. Do I believe there are some people who have been instantly delivered? Sure, but I also believe those are few and far between. They are absolute miracles - not the norm of those who answer the call to Jesus. Their cross is going to be intensely difficult for a lifetime. In other words, if Jesus is not healing all the people asking for an instant miracle to walk, to be free of cancer, to regrow lost limbs and have sight restored, then gays are probably joining in the line of those whose cross is extremely painful. Maybe that is the WAY.

 

[Galadriel]

Their cross is going to be intensely difficult for a lifetime.

JaneBond007 and we all have our crosses to bear (which comes in many forms, depending on our weaknesses)--to which Jesus says to take up our cross and follow Him .

 

[JaneBond007]

Before charging the RCC with false doctrine, it should behoove one to factually know what it teaches. Here is a concise summary on the matter in the form of a blog entry. Thus, it cannot be said that the RCC promotes "demonic" homosexuality:

http://lasalettejourney.blogspot.com/2005/02/homosexuality-and-catholic-doctrine.html


Homosexuality and Catholic doctrine
While it is certainly true that homosexual persons "must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity" and that "every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided" (CCC, 2358), still, the premise that homosexuality is a God-given orientation which must be accepted and affirmed by society is erroneous.

Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons, a Philadelphia area psychiatrist whose specialty is reparative therapy for those who suffer from same-sex attractions, has said that "..homosexuality is an attraction and not an orientation. In some ways homosexuality represents a false identity - a failure to develop that proper masculinity or femininity which God desires. Homosexuality is therefore considered to be an objective disorder."

And this is precisely the teaching of the Catholic Church: "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial." (CCC, 2358).

Homosexuality and lesbianism are both on the increase. This fact is highly significant. Dr. Abram Kardiner, distinguished physician, psychoanalyst and anthropologist, states that homosexuality reaches pestilential and plague proportions in morally rotting societies during the final stages of total collapse.

According to Catholic doctrine, any disorderly tendency, above all to a vice contrary to nature, cannot have a right to citizenship in a person's thoughts. If someone in his mind makes a concession to this tendency, he sins. This is why in the Confiteor one asks forgiveness for thoughts, words and deeds.

As for the act of sodomy, it constitutes a sin that cries out to Heaven and clamors to God for vengeance (See Gn 18:20; Gn 19:12-13; Lv 18:22; Lv 18"24-28; Lv 20:13; 1 Cor 6: 9-10; Rm 1: 24-27; 2 Pt 2:4-9; Jd 7:8).

It is an ominous fact that the "gay" movement is having its way of life (more accurately its way of death) redefined as a simple variant of normal sexuality and woven into the fabric of society. The movement to legitimize homosexuality runs contrary to the constant teaching of the Church. In fact, Saint Thomas Aquinas, writing about sins against nature, explains: "..they are called passions of ignominy because they are not worthy of being named, according to that passage in Ephesians (5:12): 'For the things that are done by them in secret, it is a shame even to speak of.' For if the sins of the flesh are commonly censurable because they lead man to that which is bestial in him, much more so is the sin against nature, by which man debases himself lower than even his animal nature." (St. Thomas Aquinas, Super Epistulas Sancti Pauli Ad Romanum, I, 26, pp. 27f).

Saint Catherine of Sienna, a religious mystic of the 14th century, relays words of Our Lord Jesus Christ about the vice against nature, which contaminated part of the clergy in her time. Referring to sacre ministers, He says: "They not only fail from resisting this frailty (of fallen human nature)...but do even worse as they commit the cursed sin against nature. Like the blind and stupid, having dimmed the light of their understanding, they do not recognize the disease and misery in which they find themselves. For this not only causes Me nausea, but displeases even the demons themselves, whom these miserable creatures have chosen as their lords. For Me, this sin against nature is so abominable that, for it alone, five cities were submersed, by virtue of the judgment of My divine justice, which could no longer bear them...It is disagreeable to the demons, not because evil displeases them and they find pleasure in good, but because their nature is angelic and thus is repulsed upon seeing such an enormous sin being committed. It is true that it is the demon who hits the sinner with the poisoned arrow of lust, but when a man carries out such a sinful act, the demon leaves." (St. Catherine of Sienna, El dialogo, in Obras de Santa Catarina de Siena, Madrid: BAC, 1991, p. 292).

Tertullian, the great apologist of the Church in the second century, writes: 'We condemn all those who give themselves over to the excesses of luxury contrary to natural law...and expel them from the bosom of the Church, for such acts are greater monstrosities than sins." (Tertullian, De pudicitia, IV, in J. McNeill, La Iglesia ante la homosexualidad, p. 134).

Saint Augustine is just as frank in his condemnation of sodomy and similar vices: "Sins against nature, therefore, like the sin of Sodom, are abominable and deserve punishment whenever and wherever they are committed...for our Maker did not prescribe that we should use each other in this way. In fact, the relationship that we ought to have with God is itself violated when our nature, of which He is Author, is desecrated by perverted lust." (St. Augustine, Confessions, New York: Penguin, 1967; Book III. Chap 8, p.65).

If the events of September 11th are a warning, and I believe that they are, then the clergy sex scandal is a judgment. For years, members of the Church's hierarchy have been ignoring the warnings of Our Lady that toleration (and even promotion of) false teaching would lead to a time of crisis.

Many so-called "scripture scholars" and "moral theologians" have destroyed the faith and morality of millions. Many priests and religious "educators" in turn, influenced by these "scholars" and "theologians" have sown doubt about the scriptures and morality, thereby destroying the faith and morality of countless lay persons.

Their Destroyer is awake and waiting for them.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

Removed

 

[Galadriel]

Don't know if this has been posted, but I hope this makes things a little clearer. This is the Q&A that occurred with Pope Francis when he answered the question. First, he was specifically talking about a particular cleric who had been under investigation, and was speaking of clergy members who had homosexual tendencies, not gays in general. The "I do not judge gays" is the title that the media gave the story, though that specific statement doesn't appear in the actual interview (taken from WDTPRS Blog):

QUESTION: I would like to ask permission to pose a rather delicate question. Another image that went around the world is that of Monsignor Ricca and the news about his personal life. I would like to know, your Holiness, what will be done about this question. How should one deal with this question and how does your Holiness wish to deal with the whole question of the gay lobby?

FRANCIS: Regarding the matter of Monsignor Ricca, I did what Canon Law required and did the required investigation. And from the investigation, we did not find anything corresponding to the accusations against him. We found none of that. That is the answer. But I would like to add one more thing to this: I see that so many times in the Church, apart from this case and also in this case, one looks for the “sins of youth,” for example, is it not thus?, And then these things are published. These things are not crimes. The crimes are something else: child abuse is a crime.

But sins, if a person, or secular priest or a nun, has committed a sin and then that person experienced conversion, the Lord forgives and when the Lord forgives, the Lord forgets and this is very important for our lives. When we go to confession and we truly say “I have sinned in this matter,” the Lord forgets and we do not have the right to not forget because we run the risk that the Lord will not forget our sins, eh? This is a danger. This is what is important: a theology of sin. So many times I think of St. Peter: he committed one of the worst sins denying Christ. And with this sin they made him Pope. We must think about fact often.

But returning to your question more concretely: in this case [Ricca] I did the required investigation and we found nothing. That is the first question. Then you spoke of the gay lobby. Agh… so much is written about the gay lobby. I have yet to find on a Vatican identity card the word gay. They say there are some gay people here. I think that when we encounter a gay person, we must make the distinction between the fact of a person being gay and the fact of a lobby, because lobbies are not good. They are bad. If a person is gay and seeks the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge that person? The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this point beautifully but says, wait a moment, how does it say, it says, these persons must never be marginalized and “they must be integrated into society.”

The problem is not that one has this tendency; no, we must be brothers, this is the first matter. There is another problem, another one: the problem is to form a lobby of those who have this tendency, a lobby of the greedy people, a lobby of politicians, a lobby of Masons, so many lobbies. This is the most serious problem for me. And thank you so much for doing this question. Thank you very much!

 

[CoilyFields]

I think part of the problem is that homosexuality is one of the few sins where we don't seperate the person from the sin. For most people, we do not consider the sins that we commit to be intrinsic to our being. It is something we did...engaged in...and then put back down, not a part of our make up. Even heterosexual fornicators are considered to be engaging in a sin rather than "being" that sin.

So for many, when they see a homosexual they see someone who has "absorbed" a sin...it's them and they're it...no seperating the two. The only other things that I can think of to compare this to is pedophilia or beastiatlity.

I understand the Catholic doctrine concerning this. A disorder. But when that "disorder" can ONLY lead to sin...? I'm thinking as I type so it might be hard to follow. I have definately spoken to folks and acknowledged that God heals/delivers us as he sees fit. Meaning, I do think there are some sins that we will no longer struggle with and others we will have to battle all of our lives. I believe Paul was talking about this when he described the thorn in his flesh that he asked God to remove but God DID NOT, but instead said, My Grace is sufficient. Basically, Ima let you struggle with this so that you will rely more on my grace than your own efforts...this will keep you close to me as I perform in your life.

So that leads me to believe that a person who has same-sex attraction can be completely delivered with no more desire, AND that there can be a person who will have to be vigilant in casting down those desires.

I cannot agree that the desire/attraction is not a sin, simply a disorder (and by disorder I have assumed that you meant not a sin). The same way I would say the desire to have sex with children or animals is a sin. The fact that it is a disorder (and I think of this as some characteristic that a person has through no design of their own) doesn't make it less of a sin. But this doesn't mean that a person cannot be saved. Im not sure if I was clear or not lol but I'm trying to wade through some thoughts.

Overall I really dislike that what the Pope said will be used by pro-gay folks to encourage gay lifestyles.