Lord Help us All

[Galadriel]

I think part of the problem is that homosexuality is one of the few sins where we don't seperate the person from the sin. For most people, we do not consider the sins that we commit to be intrinsic to our being. It is something we did...engaged in...and then put back down, not a part of our make up. Even heterosexual fornicators are considered to be engaging in a sin rather than "being" that sin.

So for many, when they see a homosexual they see someone who has "absorbed" a sin...it's them and they're it...no seperating the two. The only other things that I can think of to compare this to is pedophilia or beastiatlity.

I understand the Catholic doctrine concerning this. A disorder. But when that "disorder" can ONLY lead to sin...? I'm thinking as I type so it might be hard to follow. I have definately spoken to folks and acknowledged that God heals/delivers us as he sees fit. Meaning, I do think there are some sins that we will no longer struggle with and others we will have to battle all of our lives. I believe Paul was talking about this when he described the thorn in his flesh that he asked God to remove but God DID NOT, but instead said, My Grace is sufficient. Basically, Ima let you struggle with this so that you will rely more on my grace than your own efforts...this will keep you close to me as I perform in your life.

So that leads me to believe that a person who has same-sex attraction can be completely delivered with no more desire, AND that there can be a person who will have to be vigilant in casting down those desires.

I cannot agree that the desire/attraction is not a sin, simply a disorder (and by disorder I have assumed that you meant not a sin). The same way I would say the desire to have sex with children or animals is a sin. The fact that it is a disorder (and I think of this as some characteristic that a person has through no design of their own) doesn't make it less of a sin. But this doesn't mean that a person cannot be saved. Im not sure if I was clear or not lol but I'm trying to wade through some thoughts.

Overall I really dislike that what the Pope said will be used by pro-gay folks to encourage gay lifestyles.

CoilyFields, I think you stated your point well and brought up some interesting insights.

A heterosexual's opposite sex attraction inclines her to be attracted to men. And this is rightly ordered. Now, keep in mind that an inclination is not the same thing as lust or lustful thoughts. While her inclination is rightly ordered, if she were to fornicate, lust after someone, commit adultery, etc. she would sin. A homosexual's SSA is not rightly ordered, but it is the person's choice whether to engage in lust, sexual acts, or a "gay lifestyle," which would be sin. I think that's the distinction I'm trying to make.

I think it was interesting that you brought up how homosexuals as persons and homosexual attraction have been intertwined and not separated, do you think it's because many who advocate homosexual lifestyles have made it this way? They have created their sexual preference/attraction as a complete identity (even to the point of getting it recognized as equivalent to race or gender).

But for those who experience SSA and do not advocate homosexual lifestyles and actually agree with Biblical morality, while they suffer an internal distortion of true and proper sexuality, I agree with you that through Christ's grace they can overcome it and be saved.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

CoilyFields you brought out some great points. I believe the desire/attraction for the same sex is sin and it needs to be dealt with in a real way; prayer, deliverance, determination to stay away from those things. See, church is a dangerous place for homosexuals who want to be free many times. Why? Because homosexuals are everywhere in churches hiding behind religion and never coming out of the sin. Its spiritual and unless they cut covenant with it altogether and get away from that spirit they will remain bound to same sex desires. I really believe this is why there isn't real deliverance in churches. A "Christian" with "homosexual orientation" is an oxymoron. Everything about homosexuality is against the nature of Jesus Christ. You're either a saint or a sinner, there is no in between. If you're born again, its impossible to be a homosexual. Yes the enemy is going to tempt them and they will have to fight like a mad dog for their salvation but there should be a change in desire that took place when they got born again. No saint loves sin and desires it. Heterosexual sex is natural, its a sin when done outside of the parameters set by God. Homosexuality/pedophilia/beastiality are warped and perverted in nature no matter what and I believe that's one reason its not separated from the person. Marriage will not make homosexual sex OK with God. I've read this before, people into Satanism and witchcraft use anal sex to infest a person with demons. There is actually research out there stating this. All sexual sin is sinning against your own body but anal sex is especially dangerous. Homosexuals (men especially) can't afford to be falling back into that because they are bound by homosexual desires. They need deliverance. Falling into sexual sin is dangerous because you join your soul to that person and what's in them is transferred to you. That's a huge deal. That's why Paul constantly reminded the saints to stay away from fornication.

 

[sweetvi]

@CoilyFields, I think you stated your point well and brought up some interesting insights.

A heterosexual's opposite sex attraction inclines her to be attracted to men. And this is rightly ordered. Now, keep in mind that an inclination is not the same thing as lust or lustful thoughts. While her inclination is rightly ordered, if she were to fornicate, lust after someone, commit adultery, etc. she would sin. A homosexual's SSA is not rightly ordered, but it is the person's choice whether to engage in lust, sexual acts, or a "gay lifestyle," which would be sin. I think that's the distinction I'm trying to make.

I think it was interesting that you brought up how homosexuals as persons and homosexual attraction have been intertwined and not separated, do you think it's because many who advocate homosexual lifestyles have made it this way? They have created their sexual preference/attraction as a complete identity (even to the point of getting it recognized as equivalent to race or gender).

But for those who experience SSA and do not advocate homosexual lifestyles and actually agree with Biblical morality, while they suffer an internal distortion of true and proper sexuality, I agree with you that through Christ's grace they can overcome it and be saved.

^^^^^^THIS

 

[JaneBond007]

...homosexuality is one of the few sins where we don't separate the person from the sin. For most people, we do not consider the sins that we commit to be intrinsic to our being. It is something we did...engaged in...and then put back down, not a part of our make up. ...
[AGREED!!]

...
I understand the Catholic doctrine concerning this. A disorder. But when that "disorder" can ONLY lead to sin...? ...

that God heals/delivers us as he sees fit. Meaning, I do think there are some sins that we will no longer struggle with and others we will have to battle all of our lives. I believe Paul was talking about this when he described the thorn in his flesh that he asked God to remove but God DID NOT, ..

So that leads me to believe that a person who has same-sex attraction can be completely delivered with no more desire, AND that there can be a person who will have to be vigilant in casting down those desires.

I cannot agree that the desire/attraction is not a sin, simply a disorder (and by disorder I have assumed that you meant not a sin). ...

.

Let's say that Paul was homosexual and that the thorn in his side was not miraculously removed...??? The desires are there. Paul's not saved cuz the desires aren't miraculously removed? But the doctrine actually is that it is an intrinsically disordered condition and something they either do not choose or have no ability to change/help. The difference is that sin requires action. There could be the sin of the mind as well, lusting. But unless one pulls out the gun at the bank, it's not a robbery yet and it could be a passing thought. The orientation doesn't mean it will lead to sin, it's likely that, according to human nature, the person will sin and consummate his desires. And as far as desires, according to Paul, they aren't cast down but still there because it's intrinsically ingrained...birth & genetics (brain and psychology) or tragic circumstances like abuse or whichever was the switch and in any combination.

Our position is not to cast the finger and call the person who is gay a sinner. And isn't all sin intrinsic, though? All people born of man are sinners. Pope Francis is reminding us that we must not harm anyone and marginalize them, loving them and accepting them as they are. Don't people say that you don't have to "clean up" first to find Jesus? I think so. Falling into the acts of sin (consummation) have a remedy and that is repentance and reconciliation and one can return to the sacraments as they are under sanctifying grace.

It's like this...you have this orientation and you see someone of the same sex who attracts you...the tinge has been felt already. That's not the sin. If you lust after that person and at some point, take that person to bed, that's the sin. That's all we are saying because human dignity is so very important to Christ and He mandates that we likewise respect it. It's not always been this way in the church but at least, through the H-ly Spirit, we continually come into more of His truth.

Lastly, and this is my opinion, I believe that beastiality, masturbation and homosexual or heterosexual sodomy fall under grave sins because they don't follow the natural order created to bring in new life - not because they are "nasty." Obviously, when people rape or leave a girl pregnant and unmarried without care, it's an assault on their human dignity. Perhaps the intrinsic disorder is intrinsically disordered because it will never bring in new life naturally?

 

[MrsHaseeb]

Lastly, and this is my opinion, I believe that beastiality, masturbation and homosexual or heterosexual sodomy fall under grave sins because they don't follow the natural order created to bring in new life - not because they are "nasty." Obviously, when people rape or leave a girl pregnant and unmarried without care, it's an assault on their human dignity. Perhaps the intrinsic disorder is intrinsically disordered because it will never bring in new life naturally?

Huh??? So having unnatural sex with body parts that excrete wastes are only nasty because they don't bring life? Are you kidding? Some man being bent over and sodomized like a dog in a place that excretes fecal matter isn't nasty?! Its only wrong because it doesn't bring new life? That's insane. Do you know the anus has no filter like the vagina so whatever enters that hole goes directly to your blood stream? Semen getting into a mans blood stream makes their immune system out of wack. Romans 1 says they receive in their body the penalty for their error which was meet. That's God's sovereign judgement for the error of unnatural sex. There are also studies that tell us that most homosexual men usually only live out half their life. I have my.own person beliefs as to why the penalty is so much more sever for men, but that's neither here nor there. How warped have we become when something God calls detestable isn't detestable to professing Christians. I really apologize for being graphic but the truth is the truth.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

Let's say that Paul was homosexual and that the thorn in his side was not miraculously removed...??? The desires are there. Paul's not saved cuz the desires aren't miraculously removed? But the doctrine actually is that it is an intrinsically disordered condition and something they either do not choose or have no ability to change/help. The difference is that sin requires action. There could be the sin of the mind as well, lusting. But unless one pulls out the gun at the bank, it's not a robbery yet and it could be a passing thought. The orientation doesn't mean it will lead to sin, it's likely that, according to human nature, the person will sin and consummate his desires. And as far as desires, according to Paul, they aren't cast down but still there because it's intrinsically ingrained...birth & genetics (brain and psychology) or tragic circumstances like abuse or whichever was the switch and in any combination.

Our position is not to cast the finger and call the person who is gay a sinner. And isn't all sin intrinsic, though? All people born of man are sinners. Pope Francis is reminding us that we must not harm anyone and marginalize them, loving them and accepting them as they are. Don't people say that you don't have to "clean up" first to find Jesus? I think so. Falling into the acts of sin (consummation) have a remedy and that is repentance and reconciliation and one can return to the sacraments as they are under sanctifying grace.

It's like this...you have this orientation and you see someone of the same sex who attracts you...the tinge has been felt already. That's not the sin. If you lust after that person and at some point, take that person to bed, that's the sin. That's all we are saying because human dignity is so very important to Christ and He mandates that we likewise respect it. It's not always been this way in the church but at least, through the H-ly Spirit, we continually come into more of His truth.

Lastly, and this is my opinion, I believe that beastiality, masturbation and homosexual or heterosexual sodomy fall under grave sins because they don't follow the natural order created to bring in new life - not because they are "nasty." Obviously, when people rape or leave a girl pregnant and unmarried without care, it's an assault on their human dignity. Perhaps the intrinsic disorder is intrinsically disordered because it will never bring in new life naturally?

Paul's thorn in the side was persecution, a messenger of Satan to buffet him to keep him humble. How dare anybody even imply something like that! The world has been trying to make Paul a sodomite for years now the "Christians" come up with this stuff too. I've heard it all... I'm not accepting a homosexual as they are and neither is God. Sacraments don't sanctify anybody! Somebody who wants sanctification better separate themselves from sin and get to Jesus Christ through prayer, fasting, reading/listening to/mediation in the word and being around like minded people. This is why churches are still full of homosexuals. They are getting a false Gospel fed to them and they never change. The result? They learn to be hypocrites and act like Christian but never become one. They end up coming out years later never delivered and we end up hearing about all kinds of sexual filth they've done and people they've sodomized. Lord help the homosexuals. Both the world and the so called church is working against their salvation.

 

[JaneBond007]

Huh??? So having unnatural sex with body parts that excrete wastes are only nasty because they don't bring life? Are you kidding? Some man being bent over and sodomized like a dog in a place that excretes fecal matter isn't nasty?! Its only wrong because it doesn't bring new life? That's insane. Do you know the anus has no filter like the vagina so whatever enters that hole goes directly to your blood stream? Semen getting into a mans blood stream makes their immune system out of wack. Romans 1 says they receive in their body the penalty for their error which was meet. That's God's sovereign judgement for the error of unnatural sex. There are also studies that tell us that most homosexual men usually only live out half their life. I have my.own person beliefs as to why the penalty is so much more sever for men, but that's neither here nor there. How warped have we become when something God calls detestable isn't detestable to professing Christians. I really apologize for being graphic but the truth is the truth.

And unchaste women get HPV, heterosexual couples get throat cancer for fellatio...and the list goes on and on. Shrugs. There's something for everybody.

What I'm getting at is that sex is sex...but that there's an ordained way that is holy. G-d may not see "nasty" as we do. He may not go "ewww" either. To cross the line towards sin might be a billionth of a hair's width. And the level of destestableness (is that a word?? lol) might not be contained in those graphics...but in the very simple fact that new life was not promoted in the act. Afterall, G-d gave a command to the world to "be fertile and increase" Gen. 1:28 and to go against His will for the earth carries grave consequences. Why does G-d want a world filled with people? To give Him company? He doesn't need us...but we need Him and perhaps He wants to show us His unending mercy? I dunno cuz He's complex beyond any of our understanding.

Maybe we are too involved in the "ewww" factor and looking at the wrong direction for why G-d calls it detestable? Of course, I'm partly focusing on the level of disgust that people have towards gays. It's truly no different from racists looking down at minorities in church. Yet, because of the nature of the sin, the plank despises the splinter.

 

[JaneBond007]

Paul's thorn in the side was persecution, a messenger of Satan to buffet him to keep him humble. How dare anybody even imply something like that! .

It was used exemplify the point and none of us know what it was, at all. What if her were? Why dare? If Jesus ate with prostitutes, I'm sure there were also some gays in the bunch. Afterall, look at the Roman culture of that time. But that is the "ewww" factor right there. I guess I dared.

 

[Galadriel]

Afterall, look at the Roman culture of that time. But that is the "ewww" factor right there. I guess I dared.

PLEASE don't get us started on the Romans . They had some horrible, crazy stuff going on.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

It was used exemplify the point and none of us know what it was, at all. What if her were? Why dare? If Jesus ate with prostitutes, I'm sure there were also some gays in the bunch. Afterall, look at the Roman culture of that time. But that is the "ewww" factor right there. I guess I dared.

2 Corinthians 12:7-9 KJV
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. [8] For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. [9] And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


The Word of God states very plainly what the thorn was. Only a warped and perverted mind would try to make Paul into a homosexual. Seriously... Yes, Jesus ate with prostitutes. One things certain, if they really wanted to remain in fellowship with Jesus they certainly didn't stay that way. I'm beginning to see a pattern.. most people who call themselves Christians are not Christians at all. They've gone to a church and learned a bunch of filthy religion and never been regenerated on the inside. So what happens? They are the same person inside while wrapped in a bunch of religious jargon and false spirituality on the outside. "Christianity" has been overtaken by another jesus and another gospel. This false Christianity is exactly why the world blasphemes Christ. Christianity has become a bunch of unregenerate sinners play acting like Christians, lowering the standard of Jesus Christ to accommodate their own ungodliness. Apostasy at its best... You have a great night.

 

[LucieLoo12]

There reason why there is alot of confusion and disagreement concerning this topic is because people go off of philosophy and man's wisdom to understand or justify it. We have to let the word be the word.

 

[CoilyFields]

@CoilyFields, I think you stated your point well and brought up some interesting insights.

A heterosexual's opposite sex attraction inclines her to be attracted to men. And this is rightly ordered. Now, keep in mind that an inclination is not the same thing as lust or lustful thoughts. While her inclination is rightly ordered, if she were to fornicate, lust after someone, commit adultery, etc. she would sin. A homosexual's SSA is not rightly ordered, but it is the person's choice whether to engage in lust, sexual acts, or a "gay lifestyle," which would be sin. I think that's the distinction I'm trying to make.

I think it was interesting that you brought up how homosexuals as persons and homosexual attraction have been intertwined and not separated, do you think it's because many who advocate homosexual lifestyles have made it this way? They have created their sexual preference/attraction as a complete identity (even to the point of getting it recognized as equivalent to race or gender).

But for those who experience SSA and do not advocate homosexual lifestyles and actually agree with Biblical morality, while they suffer an internal distortion of true and proper sexuality, I agree with you that through Christ's grace they can overcome it and be saved.

Galadriel

To the first bolded: That is where the hair is split. You have noted three things, inclination, lust, and action. The inclination is disordered but not a sin in and of itself? I'm going to be honest and say Im not sure if I can agree with that categorization (though Im trying to sort it out Biblically rather than the knee-jerk reaction of how "the world" could take that and run with it). So if a homosexual man enters into an emotional love affair with another man...isn't that sin? or just disordered? Or would you say that as long as he doesnt lust or fornicate (and lets pretend that could happen) then its ok? Im more leaning towards the entire inclination being a sin...the same way I would think a pathological liars inclination to lie is wrong. I guess I consider any "natural" inclination that goes against God's perfect law and order to be sin. Hmmm...I'm liking this discussion because it is challenging me to really dissect this topic.

Second bolded: Yes, I do. I think they borrowed from civil rights movement the idea of "acceptance based on an unchangeable attribute" and to do so had to decided and emphasize the idea that homosexuality was not a choice, they were created that way. So they absorbed it as their identity. And I also believe that we tend to have a hierarchy of sins and the ones that threaten our security/status quo or we find to be far from our own sinful inclinations...we ostracize and marginalize. I have seen at churches where people will have no problem interacting with the couple that lives together but is not married, but the guy that is homosexual, "flaming" or not, has a reserved place in hell. Part of this I think is also a result of the sin being intertwined with the identity and church folks not knowing how to handle that.

 

[CoilyFields]

CoilyFields you brought out some great points. I believe the desire/attraction for the same sex is sin and it needs to be dealt with in a real way; prayer, deliverance, determination to stay away from those things. See, church is a dangerous place for homosexuals who want to be free many times. Why? Because homosexuals are everywhere in churches hiding behind religion and never coming out of the sin. Its spiritual and unless they cut covenant with it altogether and get away from that spirit they will remain bound to same sex desires. I really believe this is why there isn't real deliverance in churches. A "Christian" with "homosexual orientation" is an oxymoron. Everything about homosexuality is against the nature of Jesus Christ. You're either a saint or a sinner, there is no in between. If you're born again, its impossible to be a homosexual. Yes the enemy is going to tempt them and they will have to fight like a mad dog for their salvation but there should be a change in desire that took place when they got born again. No saint loves sin and desires it. Heterosexual sex is natural, its a sin when done outside of the parameters set by God. Homosexuality/pedophilia/beastiality are warped and perverted in nature no matter what and I believe that's one reason its not separated from the person. Marriage will not make homosexual sex OK with God. I've read this before, people into Satanism and witchcraft use anal sex to infest a person with demons. There is actually research out there stating this. All sexual sin is sinning against your own body but anal sex is especially dangerous. Homosexuals (men especially) can't afford to be falling back into that because they are bound by homosexual desires. They need deliverance. Falling into sexual sin is dangerous because you join your soul to that person and what's in them is transferred to you. That's a huge deal. That's why Paul constantly reminded the saints to stay away from fornication.

MrsHaseeb,
Thanks. The bolded made me think of the scripture about old things passing away and all things becoming new. And just for clarification, in the bolded do you mean that the change in desire is that they will no longer have the physical desire for the same sex or that they will no longer desire to have that desire?

 

[CoilyFields]

Let's say that Paul was homosexual and that the thorn in his side was not miraculously removed...??? The desires are there. Paul's not saved cuz the desires aren't miraculously removed? But the doctrine actually is that it is an intrinsically disordered condition and something they either do not choose or have no ability to change/help. The difference is that sin requires action. There could be the sin of the mind as well, lusting. But unless one pulls out the gun at the bank, it's not a robbery yet and it could be a passing thought. The orientation doesn't mean it will lead to sin, it's likely that, according to human nature, the person will sin and consummate his desires. And as far as desires, according to Paul, they aren't cast down but still there because it's intrinsically ingrained...birth & genetics (brain and psychology) or tragic circumstances like abuse or whichever was the switch and in any combination.

Our position is not to cast the finger and call the person who is gay a sinner. And isn't all sin intrinsic, though? All people born of man are sinners. Pope Francis is reminding us that we must not harm anyone and marginalize them, loving them and accepting them as they are. Don't people say that you don't have to "clean up" first to find Jesus? I think so. Falling into the acts of sin (consummation) have a remedy and that is repentance and reconciliation and one can return to the sacraments as they are under sanctifying grace.

It's like this...you have this orientation and you see someone of the same sex who attracts you...the tinge has been felt already. That's not the sin. If you lust after that person and at some point, take that person to bed, that's the sin. That's all we are saying because human dignity is so very important to Christ and He mandates that we likewise respect it. It's not always been this way in the church but at least, through the H-ly Spirit, we continually come into more of His truth.

Lastly, and this is my opinion, I believe that beastiality, masturbation and homosexual or heterosexual sodomy fall under grave sins because they don't follow the natural order created to bring in new life - not because they are "nasty." Obviously, when people rape or leave a girl pregnant and unmarried without care, it's an assault on their human dignity. Perhaps the intrinsic disorder is intrinsically disordered because it will never bring in new life naturally?

JaneBond007

First Bolded: I don't believe that a true believer can lose their salvation. I believe that the only requirement for salvation is confession and belief. Sanctification come afterwards through our surrender and the work of the Holy Spirit. So no, even if a person remains homosexual for the rest of their lives that does not negate their salvation. (I know this is a hot topic in CF so I wont derail the thread with any more explanation).

Second Bolded: See this is where we differ. I believe that all sin is intrinsic. Even the DESIRE to sin is sin...this is why good works won't get us into heaven. No matter how "perfect" of a life we live...never doing the "actions" of sin...the very fact that our flesh desires to do wrong seperates us from God. Because he is perfect in every way...no wrong desires...so anything less than that is caused by our sinful nature...the desire to sin. Hence the reason we needed a perfect sacrifice who never sinned in mind or body...thats why Jesus could not have been born of a man...he would have inherited a sinful nature...the desire to sin. So a homosexual possibly being born that way in no way negates the fact that it is a sinful desire because all of us are born with a sinful nature...which include particular things that we are inclined to do.

Third bolded: I totally agree. I believe that we should love and accept people in the body of Christ with open arms and no one should be treated unfairly based on their sins. Many of us fall short in this area. But I also must say that most folks want CHristians to say that homosexuality is ok and believe that when you say its wrong that you are rejecting the whole person rather than the sin.

 

[CoilyFields]

There reason why there is alot of confusion and disagreement concerning this topic is because people go off of philosophy and man's wisdom to understand or justify it. We have to let the word be the word.

And unfortunately this is a topic that is rarely expounded on in churches. People aren't taught what the word says...and what it doesn't say. And unfortunately many don't look for themselves either.

Iron sharpens iron and I would hope that everyone reading this would be strengthened in their Christian walk, weather its forcing you to rethink some things or enforcing what you already believe.

 

[Galadriel]

@Galadriel
To the first bolded: That is where the hair is split. You have noted three things, inclination, lust, and action. The inclination is disordered but not a sin in and of itself?

Yes, because an inclination would be a predisposition or proclivity.

A sin is a thought, (spoken) word, or behavior/action that violates God's moral law.
An inclination is not a behavior or action, an inclination is not a spoken word, and an inclination is not a thought.

That's why I noted the difference between inclination and lust because lust would be immoral sexual thoughts that a person indulges in.

Because we live in a broken or fallen world, we have inclinations or proclivities which can be disordered. I believe any disordered inclinations can be conquered through grace, through the process of sanctification . When I talk about Christians with SSA who submit themselves to Christ and live chaste lives, I think some people have misinterpreted this as me saying, "Oh, they just have to live with their problem and that's it." I am not advocating that--I am advocating that they can be made free in Christ and live a grace-filled life.

Human sexuality involves our minds, bodies, and spirits. So I think when a Christian wants to address SSA, he's not only looking at physical attraction issues, but there are some emotional and psychological components that need to be addressed. Up until the 1970s, the American Psychological Association used to list homosexuality as a form of deviancy or sexual abnormality. I think it was a mistake to take it off the books and start telling homosexuals that their inclinations were normal or good. IMHO they should receive both spiritual and psychological help. I think we've discussed before how some w/ SSA were victims of abuse, or had certain abandonment or bonding issues with a parent, etc. So simply saying, "You've got a demon in you and you need deliverance," is not going to cut it.

I remember at my conservative Evangelical Christian college, how students who suffered from depression or even mental illness were treated. "What? You can't be depressed--that means you don't have faith. Just pray."

I believe in faith, in prayer, in the healing work of God and in miracles, but I have seen some depressed Christians crash and burn because instead of receiving dual spiritual and psychological help--they were just told they were bad Christians and didn't have enough faith. Or think about those people whose children died because they refused to take the kids to a doctor or hospital and did the prayer healing--did God fail them? Ignore them? God is very willing to aid us and touch us with His healing hand, whether it be spiritual or otherwise, but we can't lay around and do nothing on our part.

I hope I'm getting my point across without sounding confusing or crazy (please let me know).

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that we must cooperate with the grace God is freely offering us.

I'm going to be honest and say Im not sure if I can agree with that categorization (though Im trying to sort it out Biblically rather than the knee-jerk reaction of how "the world" could take that and run with it). So if a homosexual man enters into an emotional love affair with another man...isn't that sin? or just disordered? Or would you say that as long as he doesnt lust or fornicate (and lets pretend that could happen) then its ok?

I'm not sure what constitutes an "emotional love affair," but if it includes sexual thoughts or overtures, then that would be sinful.

Hmmm...I'm liking this discussion because it is challenging me to really dissect this topic.

Good! Join the club

And I also believe that we tend to have a hierarchy of sins and the ones that threaten our security/status quo or we find to be far from our own sinful inclinations...we ostracize and marginalize. I have seen at churches where people will have no problem interacting with the couple that lives together but is not married, but the guy that is homosexual, "flaming" or not, has a reserved place in hell. Part of this I think is also a result of the sin being intertwined with the identity and church folks not knowing how to handle that.

Agreed.

 

[Galadriel]

@JaneBond007
See this is where we differ. I believe that all sin is intrinsic. Even the DESIRE to sin is sin...

Are you Calvinist?

 

[LucieLoo12]

@MrsHaseeb,
Thanks. The bolded made me think of the scripture about old things passing away and all things becoming new. And just for clarification, in the bolded do you mean that the change in desire is that they will no longer have the physical desire for the same sex or that they will no longer desire to have that desire?

I know this isn't directed towards me, but I believe it will be both. The bible says that we are transformed by the renewing of our mind. For any change to began in our life our mind must be changed first.In the bible mind and heart means the same alot of times. Your body/feelings only respond to what is in your heart. if you dont like apples, it dont matter how apples are presented to you or dressed up, you wont eat it because it's nothing you like. When I was in the world, I was a heavy drinker, would crave alcohol. But since Ive been born again, not only do I hate it, but my body no longer craves it either. Anything you don't feed will die out. If you dont feed your dog, it will eventually die. It's the same way with desires or lusts, if you dont feed it, it will die. But as we are letting it die out, we are replacing with the word of God, so that new seed can begin to grow. This is what pushes out sin. The bible says the cares of the world and sin chokes out the word of God. Well i believe it works both ways. The word of God chokes out sin. But not just reading the word, but applying to out lives. The doers of the word are justified, not just the hearers. People sometimes think that the word "doesnt work" but thats because they are just hearing it but not doing it. Jesus said His word is spirit and life. When we grab ahold of the word, we will receive life


CoilyFields

 

[LucieLoo12]

Second Bolded: See this is where we differ. I believe that all sin is intrinsic. Even the DESIRE to sin is sin....

Girl you are preaching right here . Like we say when someone preaching "girl you gone make me slap you"

This This This.

Jesus told his disciples "If you even look upon a woman to sin, you have already commited adultery in your heart." Even though the he didnt even touch the woman, he would be judged for it. It's all about the heart and that's what people are missing. He also said if you hate your brother, you are a murder. That's why God told us he would give us a new heart.The new convenant said he will write his laws on our HEARTS. God wants our hearts pure.


matthew 15:19

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:


what is in your heart will come out


CoilyFields

 

[Galadriel]

Girl you are preaching right here . Like we say when someone preaching "girl you gone make me slap you"

This This This.

Jesus told his disciples "If you even look upon a woman to sin, you have already commited adultery in your heart." Even though the he didnt even touch the woman, he would be judged for it. It's all about the heart and that's what people are missing. He also said if you hate your brother, you are a murder. That's why God told us he would give us a new heart.The new convenant said he will write his laws on our HEARTS. God wants our hearts pure.


matthew 15:19

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:


what is in your heart will come out


@CoilyFields

But what you just described was lustful thoughts. To "look upon someone with lust" is to indulge in sexually immoral thoughts regarding that other person (or projecting such thoughts upon that person).

No one here is arguing that sexual immorality has nothing to do with our minds or internal thoughts (heart). In fact, I've been arguing this whole time that Christians (both with SSA and heterosexual) should be submitting to Christ and live in chastity according to their station in life.

As a married woman, I am to be chaste according to my married vocation.

A single woman should be chaste according to hers.

Same goes for the guys too.

Everyone should be chaste and pure .

 

[LucieLoo12]

But what you just described was lustful thoughts. To "look upon someone with lust" is to indulge in sexually immoral thoughts regarding that other person (or projecting such thoughts upon that person).

No one here is arguing that sexual immorality has nothing to do with our minds or internal thoughts (heart). In fact, I've been arguing this whole time that Christians (both with SSA and heterosexual) should be submitting to Christ and live in chastity according to their station in life.

As a married woman, I am to be chaste according to my married vocation.

A single woman should be chaste according to hers.

Same goes for the guys too.

Everyone should be chaste and pure .

The word lust is not just meaning something sexual. It can be a passion or strong desire for anything.

I gave the example of what Jesus said to show that God does look at what's in our heart, even if the act hasnt been committed yet. That we shouldnt be content with not doing the act, but making sure the act is not even in our heart.

 

[Galadriel]

The word lust is not just meaning something sexual. It can be a passion or strong desire for anything.

But the quote you were referring to was speaking of sexual lust (which was why Christ said a man looking upon a woman with lust has committed adultery. Adultery is a sexual sin.)

I gave the example of what Jesus said to show that God does look at what's in our heart, even if the act hasnt been committed yet. That we shouldnt be content with not doing the act, but making sure the act is not even in our heart.

I agree we should have pure thoughts and pure minds, which is why I would also categorize things like pornography as immoral and sinful. We need to have custody of the eyes, as well as custody of the heart.

 

[JaneBond007]

Well, one thing is certain, the Pope surely is catholic and he was speaking to the millions of catholics out there. As for others that disagree with catholic doctrine and his statements, that's all good and fine. It just seems pointless for one to offer non-catholic explanation of what the Vicar of Christ in the body of the RCC is saying to...those in the body of the RCC and that is what some of the media has tried to do. The catholic stance and teachings via the Magisterium, in the long tradition from Judaism, is always going to be. Through careful study and council, you arrive at the decision or truth with the guidance of the H-ly Spirit.

 

[LucieLoo12]

But the quote you were referring to was speaking of sexual lust (which was why Christ said a man looking upon a woman with lust has committed adultery. Adultery is a sexual sin.)


I agree we should have pure thoughts and pure minds, which is why I would also categorize things like pornography as immoral and sinful. We need to have custody of the eyes, as well as custody of the heart.

Ok your missing my point . All I am saying is God looks at the heart. Sin is sin to God. Whether its adultery, lying, lust, stealing. No difference to Him




Very true. David said he set no evil thing before his eyes

 

[Galadriel]

Ok your missing my point . All I am saying is God looks at the heart. Sin is sin to God. Whether its adultery, lying, lust, stealing. No difference to Him

I think we might be working with slight different definitions or certain understandings of things, but I do agree that a person's immoral actions originate in his heart, and that internally we need to submit to Christ and be cleansed (sanctification).

Very true. David said he set no evil thing before his eyes

Indeed, and how hard is it to do that in our culture today? So many people will engage in this stuff as easy as drinking a glass of water. Too many are desensitized to impurity and scoff at any attempt to guard one's eyes and heart.

 

[LucieLoo12]

Indeed, and how hard is it to do that in our culture today? So many people will engage in this stuff as easy as drinking a glass of water. Too many are desensitized to impurity and scoff at any attempt to guard one's eyes and heart.

Yep this is very true. But thats because people are not taught santification.

 

[CoilyFields]

Are you Calvinist?

Nope. I'm a Christian.
Thats what I usually tell people who ask about my denomination etc. Don't mind me...I'm being Facetious.

Though I do agree with some Calvinist ideas I prefer not to operate under the heading of a particular school of thought. I'd have to make up a new one and I think we have enough denominations lol.

 

[CoilyFields]

I am in full agreement with you ladies about guarding your heart/mind, eyes, and ears! Its hard out here for a saint!

I think the biggest difference between what Galadriel & JaneBond007 and I am saying is that in Catholicism, the predisposition/inclination toward a specific activity that is wrong is only wrong if one engages in the actual activity/sin. (Are their any other things categorized as disorders besides sexual sins in Catholicism?).

My belief is that the predisposition to do any sin is a sign of our fallen and sinful nature...hence the desire in itself is a sin as well as carrying it out.

 

[MrsHaseeb]

MrsHaseeb,
Thanks. The bolded made me think of the scripture about old things passing away and all things becoming new. And just for clarification, in the bolded do you mean that the change in desire is that they will no longer have the physical desire for the same sex or that they will no longer desire to have that desire?

Hi Coily. I meant that while the enemy may tempt them with that sin, their desire will begin to transform and they will hate what God hates. They will desire to do that which pleases Jesus Christ. They will not desire to participate in what God has delivered them from though the enemy will present them with temptation to. For example, I heard about a man who had been delivered from homosexuality and he didn't desire to participate in homosexual activity. So he had to separate himself from friends, TV, almost everything in the world that he could to guard himself from the temptation. He wanted to obey God. I do believe God transforms the desire if they get really born again. They must then choose to resist the temptation of the enemy. Hope that made it clear.

 

[Galadriel]

Nope. I'm a Christian.
Thats what I usually tell people who ask about my denomination etc. Don't mind me...I'm being Facetious.

Though I do agree with some Calvinist ideas I prefer not to operate under the heading of a particular school of thought. I'd have to make up a new one and I think we have enough denominations lol.

My two best friends in college were non-denominational, and we're still friends today. I used to joke with them all the time about non-denominational being a denomination.