Things NOT in the Bible

[Poohbear]

Anyway in answer to your question, why not give it all? Well, God is not asking for it all, only the 10% of our Gross increase. That's all.

God is not asking us for any of our money. God is a spirit. He cannot receive our physical money. The church does. It goes straight to their bank account, and the church leaders decide what to use the funds for. Not God.

You can say all that extra stuff about "Oh, church leaders are led by God" or "Oh, we are to trust God that the church leaders will do what's best with our money"... NO! Excuses to feed into man's religion.

The Bible teaches us to give cheerfully and freely... not some standard amount. It can be 1%, 5%, 10%, 50%, 75%, or more! It's giving according to what you are able to give....not grudgingly and without force.

 

[Nonie]

I am with Pooh on tithing: you are to give generously according to what you're able.

I think sometimes common sense is expected from us, which is why we got a reasoning brain. Remember when onlookers were shocked to see Jesus and his disciples "working" on the Sabbath when "it is written" that we must rest? Jesus posed a question to them to show how sometimes you really need to be rational. He asked, "If one of you has a son or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull him out?" Luke 14:5

I decided to look up the words "Firstfruits" and the definition I found was ""Firstfruits refers to the first portion of the harvest that is given to God." So let's think about that. You plant 100 seeds. Out of those 100 seeds only 80 produce fruit; the others rot/wither or are half eaten by birds. So your harvest is short of what you were supposed to get. Methinks that would be more like your net harvest. Gross would be you collecting all the fruits, including the rotten ones and then taking ten percent of that entire collection in order to make 1/10 of "gross". But who harvests bad fruit? Instead, you harvest the good (net) and from that you give your gifts.

Also, here's an interesting passage (bold is mine):

And now, brothers, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches. Out of the most severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity. For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own, they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the saints. And they did not do as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then to us in keeping with God’s will. So we urged Titus, since he had earlier made a beginning, to bring also to completion this act of grace on your part. But just as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us—see that you also excel in this grace of giving.

I am not commanding you, but I want to test the sincerity of your love by comparing it with the earnestness of others. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

And here is my advice about what is best for you in this matter: Last year you were the first not only to give but also to have the desire to do so. Now finish the work, so that your eager willingness to do it may be matched by your completion of it, according to your means. For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have.

Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality, 15as it is written: “He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little.”

2 Corinthians 8:1-15

There's also another thing I would like to mention. Everyone thinks of tithing as putting a percentage (mostly 10%) of their money in the plate that goes around during church service. Methinks "giving to God" is more than that.

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Matthew 25:31-46

So when you are taking that 10% or 1% or 90% and considering it your tithing, do not forget to split it between that plate and those in need (eg charities), because you do not want to leave "the King hungry, naked, sick, in prison, out in the cold" while helping that Pastor get his luxury car and mansions.

I am not saying not to give to the church, but that it is not the only way to give to God and unless you're in denial, I'm sure you know there are some preachers living it up while their congregation is suffering in debt and never do they give back to those who gave them as described in 2 Corinthians 8:13-14:

Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality[...]

 

[Laela]

How is God's Law appropriated today, Pooh?

Shimmie and Laela,

Why not give ALL THAT WE HAVE like the widow woman in Mark 12!!!!!

 

[Shimmie]

God is not asking us for any of our money. God is a spirit. He cannot receive our physical money. The church does. It goes straight to their bank account, and the church leaders decide what to use the funds for. Not God.

You can say all that extra stuff about "Oh, church leaders are led by God" or "Oh, we are to trust God that the church leaders will do what's best with our money"... NO! Excuses to feed into man's religion.

The Bible teaches us to give cheerfully and freely... not some standard amount. It can be 1%, 5%, 10%, 50%, 75%, or more! It's giving according to what you are able to give....not grudgingly and without force.

You totally disregarded my testimony.

Anyway....

Jesus collected money. Ummmm Yeah... He did.

The 'Church' speaks of collecting money; read the book of Acts.

There is no way around this. We are not farmers, so our seed is our 'green' dollars.

NOW if one does not wish to tithe 10% they don't have to. But don't try to err with scripture to clause oneself out of it. Just don't give and speak the truth that it's YOUR decision, not God's but yours. It's just that simple. Really.

And I pray that folks don't use the cheerful giver as their exemption.

Blessings and I mean this sincerely.

 

[Shimmie]

I am with Pooh on tithing: you are to give generously according to what you're able.

I think sometimes common sense is expected from us, which is why we got a reasoning brain. Remember when onlookers were shocked to see Jesus and his disciples "working" on the Sabbath when "it is written" that we must rest? Jesus posed a question to them to show how sometimes you really need to be rational. He asked, "If one of you has a son or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull him out?" Luke 14:5

I decided to look up the words "Firstfruits" and the definition I found was ""Firstfruits refers to the first portion of the harvest that is given to God." So let's think about that. You plant 100 seeds. Out of those 100 seeds only 80 produce fruit; the others rot/wither or are half eaten by birds. So your harvest is short of what you were supposed to get. Methinks that would be more like your net harvest. Gross would be you collecting all the fruits, including the rotten ones and then taking ten percent of that entire collection in order to make 1/10 of "gross". But who harvests bad fruit? Instead, you harvest the good (net) and from that you give your gifts.

Also, here's an interesting passage (bold is mine):

2 Corinthians 8:1-15

There's also another thing I would like to mention. Everyone thinks of tithing as putting a percentage (mostly 10%) of their money in the plate that goes around during church service. Methinks "giving to God" is more than that.

Matthew 25:31-46

So when you are taking that 10% or 1% or 90% and considering it your tithing, do not forget to split it between that plate and those in need (eg charities), because you do not want to leave "the King hungry, naked, sick, in prison, out in the cold" while helping that Pastor get his luxury car and mansions.

I am not saying not to give to the church, but that it is not the only way to give to God and unless you're in denial,

I'm sure you know there are some preachers living it up while their congregation is suffering in debt and never do they give back to those who gave them as described in 2 Corinthians 8:13-14:

This does not apply to 'ALL' nor the majority of preachers. This is your view, but it's out of proportion to the Truth. There are far too many Churches and Ministries who do not mis-appropriate the money given to them to support God's work.

As for firstfruits, if you were receiving grain as your paycheck then of course this applies, however, you receive money as your increase which takes the place of grain, and 10% off of the top of that belongs to God.

There's no way around this. Increase is payment for our labour; none of us here are farmers ... Actually, farmers DO receive money for their grain and in turn those who tithe, tithe the money to God's work. Grain won't pay the light bill or the mortgage, not in this day and time.

Love and Blessings :Rose:

 

[Laela]

Nonie,

Here's the thing with tithes that I'm afraid is being missed here.

Covenant is serious business with God.

Ecclesiastes 5:4 says:
When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for [he hath] no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.

He is also a God of His Word.
When Peter answered the tax collectors, saying that they (the disciples) pay tribute (taxes), Jesus wasn't pleased. Nonetheless, Jesus went ahead and paid the taxes, not because they were owed, but because Peter's answer put them in obligation to. God takes obligations/commitments seriously, which is why I believe He honors those who honor Him. Tithing is a form of commitment. If a person chooses not to tithe, that's between them and God. Some see tithing as archaic because it's in the Old Testament (Old Covenant). God's Commandments are also in the Old Testament [apply reasoning here] We are living under the New Covenant, through Jesus, the bridge that binds.

Of course God doesn't need my money, but the physical churches do, so they can function as His Body on Earth to meet the needs of others. Isn't' that what it's all about?

I am with Pooh on tithing: you are to give generously according to what you're able.

I think sometimes common sense is expected from us, which is why we got a reasoning brain. Remember when onlookers were shocked to see Jesus and his disciples "working" on the Sabbath when "it is written" that we must rest? Jesus posed a question to them to show how sometimes you really need to be rational. He asked, "If one of you has a son or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull him out?" Luke 14:5

I decided to look up the words "Firstfruits" and the definition I found was ""Firstfruits refers to the first portion of the harvest that is given to God." So let's think about that. You plant 100 seeds. Out of those 100 seeds only 80 produce fruit; the others rot/wither or are half eaten by birds. So your harvest is short of what you were supposed to get. Methinks that would be more like your net harvest. Gross would be you collecting all the fruits, including the rotten ones and then taking ten percent of that entire collection in order to make 1/10 of "gross". But who harvests bad fruit? Instead, you harvest the good (net) and from that you give your gifts.

Also, here's an interesting passage (bold is mine):

2 Corinthians 8:1-15

There's also another thing I would like to mention. Everyone thinks of tithing as putting a percentage (mostly 10%) of their money in the plate that goes around during church service. Methinks "giving to God" is more than that.

Matthew 25:31-46

So when you are taking that 10% or 1% or 90% and considering it your tithing, do not forget to split it between that plate and those in need (eg charities), because you do not want to leave "the King hungry, naked, sick, in prison, out in the cold" while helping that Pastor get his luxury car and mansions.

I am not saying not to give to the church, but that it is not the only way to give to God and unless you're in denial, I'm sure you know there are some preachers living it up while their congregation is suffering in debt and never do they give back to those who gave them as described in 2 Corinthians 8:13-14:

 

[Shimmie]

Nonie,

Here's the thing with tithes that I'm afraid is being missed here.

Covenant is serious business with God.

Ecclesiastes 5:4 says:
When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for [he hath] no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.

He is also a God of His Word.
When Peter answered the tax collectors, saying that they (the disciples) pay tribute (taxes), Jesus wasn't pleased. Nonetheless, Jesus went ahead and paid the taxes, not because they were owed, but because Peter's answer put them in obligation to. God takes obligations/commitments seriously, which is why I believe He honors those who honor Him. Tithing is a form of commitment. If a person chooses not to tithe, that's between them and God. Some see tithing as archaic because it's in the Old Testament (Old Covenant). God's Commandments are also in the Old Testament [apply reasoning here] We are living under the New Covenant, through Jesus, the bridge that binds.

Of course God doesn't need my money, but the physical churches do, so they can function as His Body on Earth to meet the needs of others. Isn't' that what it's all about?

You shared this lovingly.

 

[Poohbear]

How is God's Law appropriated today, Pooh?

What you just asked above is my point exactly with the statement I made about the widow woman giving all that she had. Why don't we do that now? (that's a rhetorical question, not asking for an answer). Give ALL that we have like the widow woman... Forget 10%... Give 100% and more! Why is this principle ignored for today's time? Are we picking and choosing what to follow out of the Bible? I think so!

Today, man has twisted God's Law to fit their agenda.

 

[Poohbear]

You totally disregarded my testimony.

Anyway....

Jesus collected money. Ummmm Yeah... He did.

The 'Church' speaks of collecting money; read the book of Acts.

There is no way around this. We are not farmers, so our seed is our 'green' dollars.

NOW if one does not wish to tithe 10% they don't have to. But don't try to err with scripture to clause oneself out of it. Just don't give and speak the truth that it's YOUR decision, not God's but yours. It's just that simple. Really.

And I pray that folks don't use the cheerful giver as their exemption.

Blessings and I mean this sincerely.

No, I didn't ignore your testimony... I just could not relate to it. Giving to one local church does not directly or indirectly bless you. Those blessings you receive was not because of you tithing/giving... you were just blessed accordingly to God's sovereign will.

Plus, as Nonie has pointed out, a local church isn't the only organization you have to give to. You can give directly from yourself to charities, people, strangers, your family, other families, friends, etc., and God will be pleased and/or glorified by this...whether you are blessed financially, materialistically, spiritually, or not.

I have read the book of Acts thank you very much... why don't you read the books of 1 & 2 Corinthians...

Yes, the bible does speak of the church taking up a COLLECTION (1 Corinthians 16:1-2)... not TITHING 10% of GROSS INCOME!

And guess what? Even in these verses, it doesn't say the collection was monetary...

"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come." (1 Corinth. 16:1-2)

And I am not using the "cheerful giver" clause as an exemption from anything. God does say that he loves a cheerful giver (2 Corinthians 9:7). Jesus came to fulfill the law. We do not have to prove our love for God with physical money. Jesus stands as our standard for living right.

 

[Laela]

@ the bolded: What do you think should/can be done about this?

That widow in Mark 12 gave all she had because it was on her heart to give it -- unlike the surplus offerings of the Scribes and Pharisees who gave because it was no sacrifice to them. Her action also was about sacrifice and faith, because she was really in need when she gave. Are believers who tithe today giving sacrifice or surplus? How do you determine that?

What you just asked above is my point exactly with the statement I made about the widow woman giving all that she had. Why don't we do that now? (that's a rhetorical question, not asking for an answer). Give ALL that we have like the widow woman... Forget 10%... Give 100% and more! Why is this principle ignored for today's time? Are we picking and choosing what to follow out of the Bible? I think so!

Today, man has twisted God's Law to fit their agenda.

 

[Poohbear]

@ the bolded: What do you think should/can be done about this?

That widow in Mark 12 gave all she had because it was on her heart to give it -- unlike the surplus offerings of the Scribes and Pharisees who gave because it was no sacrifice to them. Her action also was about sacrifice and faith, because she was really in need when she gave. Are believers who tithe today giving sacrifice or surplus? How do you determine that?

I'm not sure what can be done about it... I would say more people need to start reading the bible more for themselves.

I agree with you about the widow woman giving all she had because that was on her heart... that's how I feel it should be today... we shouldn't be limited nor held up to a standard percentage based on man's interpretation of what a tithe is and should be for today's time.

As far as the believers that tithe today, I believe they are giving sacrificially, but not in the sense of the widow woman who gave from her heart if you know what I mean. I feel like tithers are giving out of either fear, force, or what they have been taught over the years. When I first began tithing 10% of my gross income around the age of 15 or 16 after getting my first job, I was tithing because of what I was taught from the church, not because of what I read in the Bible. After researching and studying the scriptures for myself about tithing and giving, I saw differently than what I had been taught since a child. So I stopped tithing 10% of my gross income, and began giving from my heart according to what I can give. Plus, as Nonie has said, God blessed us with a brain. As we get older, that's when the reality of things in this life really starts to hit us. Yes, faith is in the unseen, but God doesn't want us to be fools walking around with blinders on.

I would say only Jesus can determine who gives from the heart and who gives for other reasons, just like he noticed with the Scribes and Pharisees versus the widow woman. Only he knows our heart. The only way we could possibly know the reason behind people's giving is if they vocalize or express how they feel after giving.

 

[Nonie]

This does not apply to 'ALL' nor the majority of preachers. This is your view, but it's out of proportion to the Truth. There are far too many Churches and Ministries who do not mis-appropriate the money given to them to support God's work.

True. And that is why I didn't say DO NOT GIVE A DIME to the church.

As for firstfruits, if you were receiving grain as your paycheck then of course this applies, however, you receive money as your increase which takes the place of grain, and 10% off of the top of that belongs to God.

OK, paycheck is NET not GROSS. So that squashes the argument you have all been putting forth, and supports the point I was making that harvest is NET pay not GROSS, which seems to be the lie a lot of you have bought into.

There's no way around this. Increase is payment for our labour; none of us here are farmers ... Actually, farmers DO receive money for their grain and in turn those who tithe, tithe the money to God's work. Grain won't pay the light bill or the mortgage, not in this day and time.

Since you all want to insist that the idea of tithing is all about giving money to the church and giving 10%, let us examine scripture.

22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own. 28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.

Deuteronomy 14:22-29

And again:

Firstfruits and Tithes

1 When you have entered the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance and have taken possession of it and settled in it, 2 take some of the firstfruits of all that you produce from the soil of the land the LORD your God is giving you and put them in a basket. Then go to the place the LORD your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name 3 and say to the priest in office at the time, “I declare today to the LORD your God that I have come to the land the LORD swore to our ancestors to give us.” 4 The priest shall take the basket from your hands and set it down in front of the altar of the LORD your God. 5 Then you shall declare before the LORD your God: “My father was a wandering Aramean, and he went down into Egypt with a few people and lived there and became a great nation, powerful and numerous. 6 But the Egyptians mistreated us and made us suffer, subjecting us to harsh labor. 7 Then we cried out to the LORD, the God of our ancestors, and the LORD heard our voice and saw our misery, toil and oppression. 8 So the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, with great terror and with signs and wonders. 9 He brought us to this place and gave us this land, a land flowing with milk and honey; 10 and now I bring the firstfruits of the soil that you, LORD, have given me.” Place the basket before the LORD your God and bow down before him. 11 Then you and the Levites and the foreigners residing among you shall rejoice in all the good things the LORD your God has given to you and your household. 12 When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied. 13 Then say to the LORD your God: “I have removed from my house the sacred portion and have given it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, according to all you commanded. I have not turned aside from your commands nor have I forgotten any of them. 14 I have not eaten any of the sacred portion while I was in mourning, nor have I removed any of it while I was unclean, nor have I offered any of it to the dead. I have obeyed the LORD my God; I have done everything you commanded me. 15 Look down from heaven, your holy dwelling place, and bless your people Israel and the land you have given us as you promised on oath to our ancestors, a land flowing with milk and honey.”

Deuteronomy 26:1-15

What I read there is that tithing involved bringing the firstfruits to the presence of God and after giving thanks and worshiping Him, sharing it with those without, which sorta kinda definitely seems to be in line with Jesus teaching about giving to the hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the sick, the imprisoned. I do not see where it says, give it to the priest and leave it there, like modern doctrines will try to tell you. Instead, you are to partake of it as a kind of communion and a way to rejoice before the Lord.

The other thing to note is there was money back then. If the place of God's dwelling was far, they were to sell their firstfruits and carry the money to the place of God's presence then buy whatever they liked there and that is what they were to share amongst themselves and with the Levites living in their town who had no allotment or inheritance.

So the argument that tithing is about money THESE days seems to me to be something man invented. Not a single place in the whole Bible is money used in tithing. And the only place money is mentioned w/r/t tithing is in the part about selling your produce to save you having to lug a load but you do not tithe that money. Instead you buy more produce for tithing. And again, the tithing of which we reading is different from the tithing people speak of today. So what if we aren't farmers? Why can't we buy the produce and have a meal together with those without during our assemblies?

 

[Nonie]

So how did this whole tithing story come about when it meant a totally different thing in the Old Testament?

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia:

In the Christian Church, as those who serve the altar should live by the altar, provision of some kind had necessarily to be made for the sacred ministers. In the beginning this was supplied by the spontaneous offerings of the faithful. In the course of time, however, as the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would insure the proper and permanent support of the clergy. The payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law, and early writers speak of it as a divine ordinance and an obligation of conscience. The earliest positive legislation on the subject seems to be contained in the letter of the bishops assembled at Tours in 567 and the canons of the Council of Maçon in 585. In course of time, we find the payment of tithes made obligatory by ecclesiastical enactments in all the countries of christendom. The Church looked on this payment as "of divine law, since tithes were instituted not by man but by the Lord Himself" (C. 14, X de decim. III, 30). As regards the civil power, the Christian Roman emperors granted the right to churches of retaining a portion of the produce of certain lands, but the earliest instance of the enforcement of the payment of ecclesiastical tithes by civil law is to be found in the capitularies of Charlemagne, at the end of the eighth century. English law very early recognized the tithe, as in the reigns of Athelstan, Edgar, and Canute before the Norman Conquest. In English statute law proper, however, the first mention of tithes is to be found in the Statute of Westminister of 1285. Tithes are of three kinds: predial, or that derived from the annual crops; mixed, or what arises from things nourished by the land, as cattle, milk, cheese, wool; and personal or the result of industry or occupation. Predial tithes were generally called great tithes, and mixed and personal tithes, small tithes. Natural substances having no annual increase are not tithable, nor are wild animals. When property is inherited or donated, it is not subject to the law of tithes, but its natural increase is. There are many exempted from the paying of tithes: spiritual corporations, the owners of uncultivated lands, those who have acquired lawful prescription, or have obtained a legal renunciation, or received a privilege from the pope.

At first, the tithe was payable to the bishop, but later the right passed by common law to parish priests. Abuses soon crept in. The right to receive tithes was granted to princes and nobles, even hereditarily, by ecclesiastics in return for protection or eminent services, and this species of impropriation became so intolerable that the Third Council of Lateran (1179) decreed that no alienation of tithes to laymen was permissible without the consent of the pope. In the time of Gregory VIII, a so-called Saladin tithe was instituted, which was payable by all who did not take part personally in the crusade to recover the Holy Land. At the present time, in most countries where some species of tithes still exist, as in England (for the Established Church), in Austria, and Germany, the payment has been changed into a rent-charge. In English-speaking countries generally, as far as Catholics are concerned, the clergy receive no tithes. As a consequence, other means have had to be adopted to support the clergy and maintain the ecclesiastical institutions (see CHURCH MAINTENANCE), and to substitute other equivalent payments in lieu of tithes. Soglia (Institut, Canon, II, 12) says "The law of tithes can never be abrogated by prescription or custom, if the ministers of the Church have no suitable and sufficient provision from other sources; because then the natural and divine law, which can neither be abrogated not antiquate, commands that the tithe be paid." In some parts of Canada, the tithe is still recognized by civil law, and the Fourth Council of Quebec (1868) declared that its payment is binding in conscience of the faithful.

(Source)

To me that sounds like all the other rules that "institutions" make and pass off as God's word.

BTW, there was a mention in the bible of tithing w/r/t possessions (not money), and this was in Joshua's conditional promise to God:

10 Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Harran. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 13 There above it[c] stood the LORD, and he said: “I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. 14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.[d] 15 I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.” 16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, “Surely the LORD is in this place, and I was not aware of it.” 17 He was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven.”
18 Early the next morning Jacob took the stone he had placed under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on top of it. 19 He called that place Bethel,[e] though the city used to be called Luz.
20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear 21 so that I return safely to my father’s household, then the LORD[f] will be my God 22[g] this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God’s house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth.”

Genesis 28:10-22

So he told God that he would give God IF God met his needs. Bold huh?

You know what strikes me as really odd? There are so many other practices in the Old Testament that somehow it seems somebody decided didn't need updating as much as this tithing one. And as much as tithing is clearly defined as sharing what you have with others, it seems someone carefully made sure the majority believe it's giving a tenth to the church...which I'm sure Jesus would have really hammered on had that been true, but instead He seemed to echo sharing with others instead, over and over again...adding that if you did that, you would have shared it with Him.

 

[Nonie]

God doesn't want a 10th of our gross income. The Bible asks us to offer our bodies as holy sacrifice to God (Romans 12:1). When a rich man asked Jesus what he ought to do to inherit eternal life, he was told to obey the commandments. He said he'd done that and asked what else he needed to do. He was told to sell all his possession and give to the poor and he'll have treasures in heaven. And then follow Jesus. (Matthew 19) Again, I see giving to those without (not to the church).

The Law of Moses had commandments like "Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's wife", but under the Spirit's guidance, that law becomes redundant because those led by the Spirit seek the things of God (Romans 8). Do you remember the woman found committing adultery? According to the Law of Moses she was supposed to be stoned. Jesus didn't allow it (John 8:1-11). Jesus quoted the Law of Moses a few times in the New Testament (eg an eye for an eye) starting with “It is said” but then shortly after he’d add “but now I tell you” and gave new orders (Matthew 5:17-48).

Hebrews 8 says:

1 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being. 3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said[b]:
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

When people preach that you are to give 10% OR ELSE—which seems to be the message of tithing that a lot of people buy into—they totally ignore everything else written in the New Testament about giving. Nowhere is a QUOTA given. In fact, here’s the verse “God loves a cheerful giver” in its context:

6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion [as in IT MUST BE 10% OR ELSE!], for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written:

“They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor;
their righteousness endures forever.”
​

[The fact that ^^ is quoted here in this context again proves that it’s all about giving those without!]
10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be enriched in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.
12 This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of the Lord’s people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14 And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15 Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!

2 Corinthians 9:6-15

The more I read that^^, the more I see it as advice to let our actions testify to the love of God and thus bring glory to His name. Thus we are to give to those to whom we confess the gospel so that our actions may match the words of the gospel we are preaching…and bring them into a place of giving praise to God. Hmm :scratchch …doesn’t sound to me like we are being told to extend this generosity to church leaders. Sounds more like it is to those who would otherwise not know of God’s big heart but will come to know of it through us, that we should be showing generosity to.


In case you’re wondering how it is the early preachers like Paul financed their ministry since tithing was not mentioned as a requirement in all their preaching, Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 3:6-10

6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

…and 1 Thessalonians 2:9:

9 Surely you remember, brothers and sisters, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you.

So am I saying do not give to the church? No. I’m saying give as your spirit is willing not because someone tells you THE LAW SAYS you must give 10% of your income. God loves giving that comes from the heart. Heed the bible’s message:

Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, 2 older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.
3 Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. 4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. 5 The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. 6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. 7 Give the people these instructions, so that no one may be open to blame. 8 Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Because of this LAW that seems to pressure people to give to the church, I know of people whose families were going w/o because they felt obligated to do their bidding for the church lest they be cursed. So just because a large number of folks think that’s how it is supposed to be, doesn’t mean it’s the truth. But if those of us who feel this way are wrong, I am sure the Spirit who guides will lead us to all truth.

 

[nappystorm]

^^^Thanks for that post. The Bible is sooo confusing to me. You really broke it down, answered some questions I had, and taught me something new.

 

[Nonie]

Nonie,

Here's the thing with tithes that I'm afraid is being missed here.

Covenant is serious business with God.

Ecclesiastes 5:4 says:
When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for [he hath] no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.

He is also a God of His Word.
When Peter answered the tax collectors, saying that they (the disciples) pay tribute (taxes), Jesus wasn't pleased. Nonetheless, Jesus went ahead and paid the taxes, not because they were owed, but because Peter's answer put them in obligation to. God takes obligations/commitments seriously, which is why I believe He honors those who honor Him. Tithing is a form of commitment. If a person chooses not to tithe, that's between them and God. Some see tithing as archaic because it's in the Old Testament (Old Covenant). God's Commandments are also in the Old Testament [apply reasoning here] We are living under the New Covenant, through Jesus, the bridge that binds.

Of course God doesn't need my money, but the physical churches do, so they can function as His Body on Earth to meet the needs of others. Isn't' that what it's all about?

Here's that verse you quote in context:

1 [a]Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. Go near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools, who do not know that they do wrong. 2 Do not be quick with your mouth,
do not be hasty in your heart
to utter anything before God.
God is in heaven
and you are on earth,
so let your words be few.
3 A dream comes when there are many cares,
and many words mark the speech of a fool.
4 When you make a vow to God, do not delay to fulfill it. He has no pleasure in fools; fulfill your vow. 5 It is better not to make a vow than to make one and not fulfill it. 6 Do not let your mouth lead you into sin. And do not protest to the temple messenger, “My vow was a mistake.” Why should God be angry at what you say and destroy the work of your hands? 7 Much dreaming and many words are meaningless. Therefore fear God.

Ecclesiastes 5:1-7

And that's just the thing: I did not make any vow to God to tithe 10% of my gross income, or even to give it to the church. I did not make any vow at all w/r/t. Usually when I give, I give without having mouthed anything to anyone--not even to God. I just give as my heart moves me and give thanks that I am able to. I do not play with God so perish the thought that I would make a covenant and not keep it. So I'm not sure I get your point.


You mention the passage of the tax men coming to Peter and Jesus having Peter pay taxes for him and Peter. Here's the actual passage:

24When they came to Capernaum, those who collected (V)the [b]two-drachma tax came to Peter and said, "Does your teacher not pay (W)the two-drachma tax?"
25He said, "Yes." And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect (X)customs or (Y)poll-tax, from their sons or from strangers?"
26When Peter said, "From strangers," Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are exempt.
27"However, so that we do not (Z)offend them, go to the sea and throw in a hook, and take the first fish that comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find [c]a shekel. Take that and give it to them for you and Me."

Matthew 17:24-27

I find verses 26 and 27 very interesting. "...Then the sons are exempt. However, so that we do not offend them...Take and give it to them for you and me"....

He didn't say, "Oh in that case then...Take and give it to them for you and me" which would have clearly implied that Peter's response was proof that He was supposed to pay up, He the First born of God. But rather his next words tell me that Peter's answer confirmed that "He was exempt" and the only reason Jesus went ahead and paid was so as not to offend them. It was not because He believed he's supposed to pay.

(continued in next post)

 

[Nonie]

Here is King James version of the same passage with a commentary so we understand the passage:

24And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money [the double drachma; a sum equal to two Attic drachmas, and corresponding to the Jewish "half-shekel," payable, towards the maintenance of the temple and its services, by every male Jew of twenty years old and upward. For the origin of this annual tax, see Ex 30:13, 14; 2Ch 24:6, 9. Thus, it will be observed, it was not a civil, but an ecclesiastical tax. The tax mentioned in Mt 17:25 was a civil one. The whole teaching of this very remarkable scene depends upon this distinction.]

came to Peter, [at whose house Jesus probably resided while at Capernaum. This explains several things in the narrative]


and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? [The question seems to imply that the payment of this tax was voluntary, but expected; or what, in modern phrase, would be called a "voluntary assessment.]

25He saith, Yes. [that is, "To be sure He does"; as if eager to remove even the suspicion of the contrary. If Peter knew as surely he did that there was at this time no money in the bag, this reply must be regarded as a great act of faith in his Master.]

And when he was come into the house, [Peter's]

Jesus prevented him, [anticipated him; according to the old sense of the word "prevent."]


saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? [using his family name for familiarity]

of whom do the kings of the earth take custom [meaning custom on goods exported or imported]

or tribute? [meaning the poll-tax, payable to the Romans by everyone whose name was in the census. This, therefore, it will be observed, was strictly a civil tax]

of their own children, or of strangers? [This cannot mean "foreigners," from whom sovereigns certainly do not raise taxes, but those who are not of their own family, that is, their subjects]


26Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. ["of those not their children"]

Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free. [By "the children" our Lord cannot here mean Himself and the Twelve together, in some loose sense of their near relationship to God as their common Father. For besides that our Lord never once mixes Himself up with His disciples in speaking of their relation to God, but ever studiously keeps His relation and theirs apart (see, for example, on the last words of this chapter) this would be to teach the right of believers to exemption from the dues required for sacred services, in the teeth of all that Paul teaches and that He Himself indicates throughout. He can refer here, then, only to Himself; using the word "children" evidently in order to express the general principle observed by sovereigns, who do not draw taxes from their own children, and thus convey the truth respecting His own exemption the more strikingly:namely, "If the sovereign's own family be exempt, you know the inference in My case"; or to express it more nakedly than Jesus thought needful and fitting: "This is a tax for upholding My Father's House. As His Son, then, that tax is not due by Me. I AM FREE."]

27Notwithstanding, lest we should offend [stumble]

them, [all ignorant as they are of My relation to the Lord of the Temple, and should misconstrue a claim to exemption into indifference to His honor who dwells in it.]

go thou to the sea, [Capernaum, it will be remembered, lay on the Sea of Galilee]

and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: [a stater. So it should have been rendered, and not indefinitely, as in our version, for the coin was an Attic silver coin equal to two of the afore-mentioned "didrachms" of half a shekel's value, and so, was the exact sum required for both. Accordingly, the Lord adds,]

that take, and give unto them for me and thee. [literally, "instead of Me and thee"; perhaps because the payment was a redemption of the person paid for (Ex 30:12)in which view Jesus certainly was "free." If the house was Peter's, this will account for payment being provided on this occasion, not for all the Twelve, but only for him and His Lord. Observe, our Lord does not say "for us," but "for Me and thee"; thus distinguishing the Exempted One and His non-exempted disciple.]

Purple entries are from the Jamison Bible Commentary


Paul says in Romans that we are children of God/co-heirs with Christ:

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, “Abba,[g] Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Romans 8:14-17

So had that scene with Peter played out today, we'd be in the same boat as Christ whereby we too would be exempt.

 

[Shimmie]

True. And that is why I didn't say DO NOT GIVE A DIME to the church.



OK, paycheck is NET not GROSS. So that squashes the argument you have all been putting forth, and supports the point I was making that harvest is NET pay not GROSS, which seems to be the lie a lot of you have bought into.



Since you all want to insist that the idea of tithing is all about giving money to the church and giving 10%, let us examine scripture.

Deuteronomy 14:22-29

And again:

Deuteronomy 26:1-15

What I read there is that tithing involved bringing the firstfruits to the presence of God and after giving thanks and worshiping Him, sharing it with those without, which sorta kinda definitely seems to be in line with Jesus teaching about giving to the hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the sick, the imprisoned. I do not see where it says, give it to the priest and leave it there, like modern doctrines will try to tell you. Instead, you are to partake of it as a kind of communion and a way to rejoice before the Lord.

The other thing to note is there was money back then. If the place of God's dwelling was far, they were to sell their firstfruits and carry the money to the place of God's presence then buy whatever they liked there and that is what they were to share amongst themselves and with the Levites living in their town who had no allotment or inheritance.

So the argument that tithing is about money THESE days seems to me to be something man invented. Not a single place in the whole Bible is money used in tithing. And the only place money is mentioned w/r/t tithing is in the part about selling your produce to save you having to lug a load but you do not tithe that money. Instead you buy more produce for tithing. And again, the tithing of which we reading is different from the tithing people speak of today. So what if we aren't farmers? Why can't we buy the produce and have a meal together with those without during our assemblies?

Nonie, whatever our 'increase' is, God expects us to give 10% of it. There's no way around this; even with all of the scriptures and notations you've shared. Whatever we receive in this life as payment, we are to give of it to the work of God 10% off of the top, not the net. In this day, money is our increase, not grain.

Dear one, the gross salary IS our paycheck. I'm sorry, but it is. The deductions taken are to our benefit [our use], even the taxes [which pay for public uses -- schools, libraries, roads, etc.]. People [most] are not going to give up taxes voluntarily, so the government takes it before we have a chance to spend it. The insurance deductions, retirement, credit union, etc., are our personal benefits, therefore the gross is our paycheck with it's deductions; the net is simply the balance afterwards.

I hope my posts do not come across as an argument, it's not. I'm not being contentious nor disrespectful to you or anyone ...

Blessings to you loved one.

 

[Laela]

My point is, everyone's relationship with God is personal, as led by the Holy Spirit.

I really don't know how we got stuck on tithing, but I agree that we also give back to God -- our time, talents, gifts, etc, to serve Him. The earth is Lord's and the fullness thereof, so all of His isn't even ours to keep..we just have dominion. The people I know who tithe monetarily, do much more than give money, because they know giving is not about just money. They give of their time, gifts, talents, etc. For them, the commitment to God to tithe is just one aspect of giving.

Not arguing with you about this at all.

Hebrews 13:5-6 says:
"Let your character be free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, 'I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you,' so that we confidently say, “The Lord is my helper, I will not be afraid"

People who love money tend to want to horde it or keep it. They don't want to spend it. They believe everyone is out to get their money. They'll kill for it. They'll beat someone down for it..they'll bus' a cap.... Well, you get my drift... That's not a Godly character at all. So I find it ironic that Christians who give are called lovers of money.

Scripturally, this is what God has to say about 'giving':

Matthew 25:
31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36. Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38. When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39. Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40. And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45. Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Giving as one purposes in the heart brings us right right back to the Two Greatest Commandments. Love God, Love People.
I understand that to not keep these two commandments causes us to disobey all the others and makes tithing, giving, healing, delivering, teaching, preaching, etc., null and void on Judgment Day.

The Jesus and Peter tax story is an example of how at times, we need to deny ourselves in terms of worldly interests, rather than give offense. So yes, there was obligation for them to pay the tax, so as not to offend. Jesus was teaching Peter a lesson.

Here's that verse you quote in context:
Ecclesiastes 5:1-7

And that's just the thing: I did not make any vow to God to tithe 10% of my gross income, or even to give it to the church. I did not make any vow at all w/r/t. Usually when I give, I give without having mouthed anything to anyone--not even to God. I just give as my heart moves me and give thanks that I am able to. I do not play with God so perish the thought that I would make a covenant and not keep it. So I'm not sure I get your point.


You mention the passage of the tax men coming to Peter and Jesus having Peter pay taxes for him and Peter. Here's the actual passage:


Matthew 17:24-27

I find verses 26 and 27 very interesting. "...Then the sons are exempt. However, so that we do not offend them...Take and give it to them for you and me"....

He didn't say, "Oh in that case then...Take and give it to them for you and me" which would have clearly implied that Peter's response was proof that He was supposed to pay up, He the First born of God. But rather his next words tell me that Peter's answer confirmed that "He was exempt" and the only reason Jesus went ahead and paid was so as not to offend them. It was not because He believed he's supposed to pay.

(continued in next post)

 

[Laela]

I agree, we are co-heirs with Christ...it's funny how people have a problem when preachers say that

We also are the new Levites, with Jesus being our High Priest, thus improving the Old Covenant, not doing away with it. Jesus fulfilled The Law.

1 Peter 2:
5. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8. And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Here is King James version of the same passage with a commentary so we understand the passage:


Purple entries are from the Jamison Bible Commentary


Paul says in Romans that we are children of God/co-heirs with Christ:

Romans 8:14-17

So had that scene with Peter played out today, we'd be in the same boat as Christ whereby we too would be exempt.

 

[Laela]

@bolded, I agree.

I'm not sure what can be done about it... I would say more people need to start reading the bible more for themselves.

@ bolded: That statement negates itself.

@underlined: How are you to know people who tithe aren't giving from their heart..like this widow? This really is a personal issue between them and God. Tithing is a principle, like any other principle in the Bible, so I agree we can gauge what really was on their heart when they speak after giving. Good point. However, not everyone speaks.

I agree with you about the widow woman giving all she had because that was on her heart... that's how I feel it should be today... we shouldn't be limited nor held up to a standard percentage based on man's interpretation of what a tithe is and should be for today's time.

As far as the believers that tithe today, I believe they are giving sacrificially, but not in the sense of the widow woman who gave from her heart if you know what I mean. I feel like tithers are giving out of either fear, force, or what they have been taught over the years. When I first began tithing 10% of my gross income around the age of 15 or 16 after getting my first job, I was tithing because of what I was taught from the church, not because of what I read in the Bible. After researching and studying the scriptures for myself about tithing and giving, I saw differently than what I had been taught since a child. So I stopped tithing 10% of my gross income, and began giving from my heart according to what I can give. Plus, as Nonie has said, God blessed us with a brain. As we get older, that's when the reality of things in this life really starts to hit us. Yes, faith is in the unseen, but God doesn't want us to be fools walking around with blinders on.

I would say only Jesus can determine who gives from the heart and who gives for other reasons, just like he noticed with the Scribes and Pharisees versus the widow woman. Only he knows our heart. The only way we could possibly know the reason behind people's giving is if they vocalize or express how they feel after giving.

 

[Laela]

Wanted to share this breakdown of the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant, for anyone interested in doing their own study (the numbers of both sections correspond with one another):


OLD COVENANT

1- A physical covenant based on physical promises.

2- Physical circumcision

3- People did not have God's Holy Spirit and were to obey in the letter of the law.

4- If obeyed in letter of the law, person could live in community, worship at the earthly tabernacle.

5- Had works of law, offerings, animal sacrifices, vows, washings, etc.

6- If law transgressed, physical atonement for certain sins, death penalty for others.

7- Had physical ordinances of divine service and earthly sanctuary.

8- At institution of Old Covenant and earthly tabernacle, blood of animals used for consecration

9- Sons of Aaron were high priest of earthly tabernacle.

10- Priest offered animal sacrifices for justification to earthly tabernacle, high priest went into Holy of Holies only once a year

11- NO direct access to God the Father

12- Could not make a person perfect as pertaining to conscience.

13- Sacrifices ceased to be effective at the time the new spiritual order was established by Jesus.

14- Old Covenant ceased to be effective after the death of Jesus.


________________________________________________________________________________________________
NEW COVENANT

1- A spiritual covenant based on spiritual promises and eternal life.
Exodus 19:5-6;
Deuteronomy 28; Leviticus 26
John 3:16; Hebrews 8:6, 9:15;
Romans 8; Luke 18:29-30

2- Repentance and circumcision of the heart through baptism.
Genesis 17:9;
Exodus 12:48; John 7:22
Acts 2:38, 3:19; Romans 2:25-29;
Philippians 3:3; Jeremiah 4:4;
Colossians 2:11-13

3- Converted believers have the gift of God's Spirit and are to obey in the spirit of the law.
Romans 7:6;
Hebrews 8:7-9; Matthew 5:21-45
Matthew 5:21-48, 6:1-34; Acts 2:38;
Romans 7:6, 8:9-10; Galatians 2:20;
Hebrews 8:10-12, 10:16

4- Believe in Christ and obey in the spirit, have direct access to worship God in heaven through Jesus.
Hebrews 9:13; Galatians 3:12;
Leviticus 18:5; 2 Corinthians 3:16
John 4:23-24, 16:23-27;
Hebrews 6:20, 10:23; Romans 8:9-39;
Ephesians 2:18-22; 2 Corinthians 3:6

5- Have Jesus' sacrifice, fruits of the Holy Spirit, prayer and good works.
Leviticus 1-7
Hebrews 9:10, 10:12, 13:15;
Galatians 5:22-24; Ephesians 2:10;
Romans 12:1-2; Revelation 8:3-5;
Matthew 19:17; Mark 15:15-18

6- If law transgressed, forgiveness upon repentance, second death for unpardonable sin.
Hebrews 9:7-10; 2 Corinthians 3
Hebrews 8:5, 9:1-28, 10:16-31;
Revelation 20:14-15, 21:8;
2 Corinthians 3

7- Has actual divine service and a heavenly sanctuary.
Hebrews 9:1-5
Hebrews 8:5; 9:1-5, 24-28; 10:16-31;
Revelation 8:3-4

8- At institution of New Covenant and heavenly tabernacle, blood of Jesus used for consecration
Hebrews 9:18-23;
Exodus 24:3-8, 40:1-38
Luke 22:19-22;
1 Corinthians 11:23-32;
Hebrews 9:14-28, 10:5-14

9- Christ is High Priest of heavenly tabernacle forever.
Hebrews 8:3-5; Exodus 28:1
Hebrews 4:14-16, 5:1-9, 7:17;
Hebrews 8:1-2, 9:11

10- Christ offered Himself once as sacrifice for world's sins, all who repent and are baptized are made right with God in heavenly tabernacle
Hebrews 5:1-3, 9:1-13
Hebrews 7:25-27, 9:23-28
Acts 11:18; Galatians 2:20; Romans 3:24-25

11- Direct access to the Father through Jesus
Hebrews 9:6-8; 10:19
Matthew 27:51; Hebrews 4:14-16;
Ephesians 7:25-27; John 16; Galatians 4:6-7;
Romans 8:15; Ephesians 2:18

12- Forgives sin spiritually and purges the conscience through the work of the Holy Spirit unto perfection
Hebrews 9:9; 10:4, 11
Hebrews 10:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:9;
Colossians 1:27; Matthew 5:48;
Philippians 2:5, 3:9-17; Ephesians 4

13- Christ's one supreme sacrifice applies to EVERY human who accepts it.
Hebrews 9:9-10; Daniel 9:27
Hebrews 10:10-14

14- New Covenant established after Christ's resurrection and ascension to God.
Hebrews 8:13; 10:9; Matthew 27:51
Hebrews 8:13; Matthew 27:51

Source: BibleStudy.org

 

[Nonie]

Nonie, whatever our 'increase' is, God expects us to give 10% of it. There's no way around this; even with all of the scriptures and notations you've shared. Whatever we receive in this life as payment, we are to give of it to the work of God 10% off of the top, not the net. In this day, money is our increase, not grain.

Dear one, the gross salary IS our paycheck. I'm sorry, but it is. The deductions taken are to our benefit [our use], even the taxes [which pay for public uses -- schools, libraries, roads, etc.]. People [most] are not going to give up taxes voluntarily, so the government takes it before we have a chance to spend it. The insurance deductions, retirement, credit union, etc., are our personal benefits, therefore the gross is our paycheck with it's deductions; the net is simply the balance afterwards.

I hope my posts do not come across as an argument, it's not. I'm not being contentious nor disrespectful to you or anyone ...

Blessings to you loved one.

So Shimmie since I MUST obey the LAW then if I gave more I'd be breaking the law, right? Coz that's NOT what I was told to give. I've been told 10% so I'd be breaking the LAW by giving a different percentage from what is asked. And if my household is hungry because of the economy and I'm behind in bills so that I cannot afford to pay them, feed my kids and give ten percent, then I should just leave my household without so I can meet this demand, right? After all there's no way around this as you say.

The way you all are so RIGID with this ten percent when I never heard Jesus or the apostles command it makes me wonder if you think God sets parameters. This is probably why some people become ministers because after all, they don't have to work (like Paul did or serve like Jesus did. Never mind the fact that both Paul and Jesus were setting examples for them to follow). All they have to do is wait for Sunday since they will get 10% from everyone. And what more does this message say, God only wants 10% so the other 90% is all yours to do with it as you please. They don't have to give anymore because "God only wants 10%". Do you see how crazy that sounds?

In Jesus' sermons, He made it clear that He didn't want a fraction from us. He wanted all. From telling people to sell all and follow him to telling them that anyone who doesn't denounce all he has cannot be his disciples. To drive that point home, He even said that "if you don't hate your own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, you can't be his disciple". For One who commanded we must love to challenge us to hate in order to drive home the point that the people who matter most to us must fade in comparison to Him, and that the devotion/love (dare I say percentage?) we ought to give to Him should be so great that it's at the far opposite end of the spectrum of what we give our loved ones shows what sort of sacrifice He expects from us.

But is He saying to give this to the church or the Pastor? No, he repeatedly talks of giving to those without in more places than one. Does he talk about firstfruits? Or a percentage thereof? No. He talks of giving what you have. He mentions food, clothes, shelter....

You know, if we are to understand the Bible, we cannot just take a tiny part of it (Malachi) and blow it up to make it the be-all-and-end-all of God's direction for our lives. We have to read it all to get its full context. We aren't stoning adulterers or sacrificing animals, so can't you all see how sly it is that tithing has been turned around to be "salary for the church" when it was never that? Let's look at that scripture you quoted before you said (again) "there's no way around it":

22Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 [can't argue with that] Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, [not put in a plate that goes back to the Pastor to maintain that church but WE are to eat this tithe in God's presence] so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. [So we may learn to honor and worship the Lord our God always] 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, [Now if the place of God's dwelling is far away, we may sell the firstfruits but again we don't put that money in a plate going around church but we are told instead] and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. [We are to use that money to buy whatever our hearts desire] Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. [Then WE and OUR HOUSEHOLD shall feast in the presence of the Lord (makes me think of how we just celebrated Thanksgiving!)] 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own. [We are told not to forget those who have no land or inheritance of their own] 28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, [Every three years we are to bring 10% x 3 and store it in town so that the poor, those not from around here, the fatherless and those who lost their hubbies but live in our town may come and eat and be satisfied] and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. [So that the Lord our God may bless the work of our hands]
​

I have a friend who was telling me about her Pastor. He has a job besides the service he does for God in the church. The church's finances come not just from the people's heartfelt donations but also from his own contribution. The main thing that the congregation does is feed people during service. So rather than just bring money, the bulk of their support for that ministry is food--the sort of tithing of old according to what we read in the bible. So the pastor doesn't have to worry about what he will eat, and the church's maintenance is a task that all who worship, including the Pastor, take to heart.

If preachers were not demanding 10% claiming it's for God

but were instead serving and following Paul's example, I bet my bottom dollar, they would never be without and buildings would not be falling apart as we are led to believe.

People would give cheerfully and freely according to what they could afford or wanted, and no one would be without, not the giver or the receiver. But this crazy rule has churches living it up--and you all know MAJORITY of them are so let's not act brand new--while the congregation is living way below the level of the Pastor. Show me a Pastor with only one pair of shoes, and I will show you 10+ in his congregation without any shoes at all.

So there is a way around it for me, Shimmie, even if you have decided that there isn't one for you. I will obey God. I will give to the poor, and the hungry, the naked and so on. I will let His Spirit direct me in my giving and in how I use my income. But I will not listen to one more person tell me that I am to give a specific quota of my money to God and then expect me to give it to the Pastor, whom when I last checked wasn't God. Jesus who said He and God are one always referred to the lowly as representing Him, never the church leaders or the guy in the pulpit. While holding a child in His arms He said, "Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me." (Mark 9:36-37). He said that when the Son of Man comes the King will say, "I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me" referring to the sick, the hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the stranger... (Matthew 25:31-46). And I will not limit my God to just 10%. I will give Him whatever I can because it is from Him that I get all things.

 

[Shimmie]

So Shimmie since I MUST obey the LAW then if I gave more I'd be breaking the law, right? Coz that's NOT what I was told to give. I've been told 10% so I'd be breaking the LAW by giving a different percentage from what is asked. And if my household is hungry because of the economy and I'm behind in bills so that I cannot afford to pay them, feed my kids and give ten percent, then I should just leave my household without so I can meet this demand, right? After all there's no way around this as you say.

The way you all are so RIGID with this ten percent when I never heard Jesus or the apostles command it makes me wonder if you think God sets parameters. This is probably why some people become ministers because after all, they don't have to work (like Paul did or serve like Jesus did. Never mind the fact that both Paul and Jesus were setting examples for them to follow). All they have to do is wait for Sunday since they will get 10% from everyone. And what more does this message say, God only wants 10% so the other 90% is all yours to do with it as you please. They don't have to give anymore because "God only wants 10%". Do you see how crazy that sounds?

In Jesus' sermons, He made it clear that He didn't want a fraction from us. He wanted all. From telling people to sell all and follow him to telling them that anyone who doesn't denounce all he has cannot be his disciples. To drive that point home, He even said that "if you don't hate your own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, you can't be his disciple". For One who commanded we must love to challenge us to hate in order to drive home the point that the people who matter most to us must fade in comparison to Him, and that the devotion/love (dare I say percentage?) we ought to give to Him should be so great that it's at the far opposite end of the spectrum of what we give our loved ones shows what sort of sacrifice He expects from us.

But is He saying to give this to the church or the Pastor? No, he repeatedly talks of giving to those without in more places than one. Does he talk about firstfruits? Or a percentage thereof? No. He talks of giving what you have. He mentions food, clothes, shelter....

You know, if we are to understand the Bible, we cannot just take a tiny part of it (Malachi) and blow it up to make it the be-all-and-end-all of God's direction for our lives. We have to read it all to get its full context. We aren't stoning adulterers or sacrificing animals, so can't you all see how sly it is that tithing has been turned around to be "salary for the church" when it was never that? Let's look at that scripture you quoted before you said (again) "there's no way around it":

22Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 [can't argue with that] Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, [not put in a plate that goes back to the Pastor to maintain that church but WE are to eat this tithe in God's presence] so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. [So we may learn to honor and worship the Lord our God always] 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, [Now if the place of God's dwelling is far away, we may sell the firstfruits but again we don't put that money in a plate going around church but we are told instead] and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. [We are to use that money to buy whatever our hearts desire] Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. [Then WE and OUR HOUSEHOLD shall feast in the presence of the Lord (makes me think of how we just celebrated Thanksgiving!)] 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own. [We are told not to forget those who have no land or inheritance of their own] 28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, [Every three years we are to bring 10% x 3 and store it in town so that the poor, those not from around here, the fatherless and those who lost their hubbies but live in our town may come and eat and be satisfied] and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. [So that the Lord our God may bless the work of our hands]
​

I have a friend who was telling me about her Pastor. He has a job besides the service he does for God in the church. The church's finances come not just from the people's heartfelt donations but also from his own contribution. The main thing that the congregation does is feed people during service. So rather than just bring money, the bulk of their support for that ministry is food--the sort of tithing of old according to what we read in the bible. So the pastor doesn't have to worry about what he will eat, and the church's maintenance is a task that all who worship, including the Pastor, take to heart.

If preachers were not demanding 10% claiming it's for God

but were instead serving and following Paul's example, I bet my bottom dollar, they would never be without and buildings would not be falling apart as we are led to believe.

People would give cheerfully and freely according to what they could afford or wanted, and no one would be without, not the giver or the receiver. But this crazy rule has churches living it up--and you all know MAJORITY of them are so let's not act brand new--while the congregation is living way below the level of the Pastor. Show me a Pastor with only one pair of shoes, and I will show you 10+ in his congregation without any shoes at all.

So there is a way around it for me, Shimmie, even if you have decided that there isn't one for you. I will obey God. I will give to the poor, and the hungry, the naked and so on. I will let His Spirit direct me in my giving and in how I use my income. But I will not listen to one more person tell me that I am to give a specific quota of my money to God and then expect me to give it to the Pastor, whom when I last checked wasn't God. Jesus who said He and God are one always referred to the lowly as representing Him, never the church leaders or the guy in the pulpit. While holding a child in His arms He said, "Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me." (Mark 9:36-37). He said that when the Son of Man comes the King will say, "I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me" referring to the sick, the hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the stranger... (Matthew 25:31-46). And I will not limit my God to just 10%. I will give Him whatever I can because it is from Him that I get all things.

I've never tithed nor given out of the 'law'. I've done so because I believe God. He has never failed to take care of me and my family. Even when I had nothing and yet still gave, God has always proven Himself faithful and sustained me and my family.

Nonie... it goes beyond the 'law', way beyond. I have lived the days of having limited to no funds to pay my bills and I just trusted God giving to Him anyway.

I looked at the widow in I Kings when Elijah told her to make him a cake first... this was all the woman had left to feed both her and her son. Yet, she fed him and she and her son ate... even during a famine in the land...the recession.

When God says to prove Him, to trust Him, He never fails us. I don't have to go out my way to disprove Him, neither do I have to suffer to prove Him, I simply believe Him and He shows up each and every time.

I can understand the 'fear' of those who are in dire straits... I've been there and I mean I've been there. One day, I had to look at God and just believe Him... NOT man, but Him and His Word which made a promise to me and I have never looked back. God is faithful and He honors those who believe Him. It's not about the 'law', it's faith that pleases God and nothing less. :Rose: :Rose:

 

[Shimmie]

[/INDENT]

I have a friend who was telling me about her Pastor. He has a job besides the service he does for God in the church. The church's finances come not just from the people's heartfelt donations but also from his own contribution. The main thing that the congregation does is feed people during service. So rather than just bring money, the bulk of their support for that ministry is food--the sort of tithing of old according to what we read in the bible. So the pastor doesn't have to worry about what he will eat, and the church's maintenance is a task that all who worship, including the Pastor, take to heart.

If this is 'all' they truly have than how can one speak against it.

However, if on the other hand these very same people have money and are simply choosing to give the 'latter' of what God has provided for them, then they are not truly giving but hoarding. And there are folks who come / go to Church who are truly selfish and will pinch and peel off a dollar or dish out the very minimum.

My Pastor and his wife also work and give of their own personal substance to feed the poor; clothing children for school and winter; we help those pay their utilities and whatever needs which may arise.

And there are 1000's upon 1000's of other Pastors who do this and more.

I can say this about 'some' [not all] who give other things instead of money.... that they are picking and choosing what they feel another person deserves.

Our church not only gives food, but we also give gift certificates so that they can go and purchase what they prefer or have special needs for. Some folks are on special diets and cannot eat canned foods or other processed materials. They cannot eat everyone's cooking. The gift certificates allow them to purchase meats, dairy and other perishable items.

If preachers were not demanding 10% claiming it's for God

but were instead serving and following Paul's example, I bet my bottom dollar, they would never be without and buildings would not be falling apart as we are led to believe.

People would give cheerfully and freely according to what they could afford or wanted, and no one would be without, not the giver or the receiver. But this crazy rule has churches living it up--and you all know MAJORITY of them are so let's not act brand new--while the congregation is living way below the level of the Pastor.

Nonie, 'you' cannot say that every Pastor who receives tithes is mis-using the funds or that they are lacking integrity. I don't understand why you are using this mis-theory to substantiate your choice of not tithing.

Show me a Pastor with only one pair of shoes, and I will show you 10+ in his congregation without any shoes at all.

I know many Pastors with only one pair of shoes and one suit. I personally know several who will not allow anyone in their congregation to be without food, clothing, shelter and resources to help them find work.

To be honest, I own more shoes than my Pastor. It seems like each time I give away or buy shoes for someone else, I get blessed with more. And I give not to get, but simply to give.

So there is a way around it for me, Shimmie, even if you have decided that there isn't one for you. I will obey God. I will give to the poor, and the hungry, the naked and so on. I will let His Spirit direct me in my giving and in how I use my income.

But I will not listen to one more person tell me that I am to give a specific quota of my money to God and then expect me to give it to the Pastor, whom when I last checked wasn't God.

No one is God except God, Himself.

Again, Nonie you cannot generalize all Pastors into a group of takers for this is not true and it is also lying against the Church. A Pastor represents the caregiver of the Church and distribution to the poor and those in need. And I know far too many Pastors who indeed give more of themselves than those who give to them.

Jesus who said He and God are one always referred to the lowly as representing Him, never the church leaders or the guy in the pulpit. While holding a child in His arms He said, "Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me." (Mark 9:36-37). He said that when the Son of Man comes the King will say, "I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me" referring to the sick, the hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the stranger... (Matthew 25:31-46). And I will not limit my God to just 10%.

I will give Him whatever I can because it is from Him that I get all things.

I respect your decision.

Yet please be careful for in your sharing you are mixing truth with false accusations against Churches and Pastors who are indeed doing the full work of God. Men and women who have the highest levels of integrity and who are literally giving their all to keep Church building open, so that others can have a place to come and worship God.

Pastors who sacrifice their time and resources, to the extent of their personal 'paychecks' from outside jobs, to see to it that no one in their congregation suffers or lacks anything which pertains to their spiritual as well as their natural needs. Pastors who lose sleep and time from their families to simply be available to the numerous calls upon them to attend to the needs of those in their Churches. Yes... there are more Pastors like this than those who are not. Far more.

And for anyone to bear a false witness against them by placing them in the same category as the ones who have failed as leaders, is not only unfair, but it is unjust and it shows that one is not listening to the voice nor the heart of God to see beyond the failure of some, to see instead the virtue of the others who literally live to give honour to God and to the needs of people.

For those in Church who are suffering financially, my prayer is that they will know the faithfulness of God who will never leave them nor forsake them.

His faithfulness ... I know. :Rose:

Nonie, Blessings to you again, for there is no contention in anything I've shared.

 

[topsyturvy86]

This conversation has gone in different directions and I don't know where to start but i'll try from this post.

So Shimmie since I MUST obey the LAW then if I gave more I'd be breaking the law, right? Coz that's NOT what I was told to give. I've been told 10% so I'd be breaking the LAW by giving a different percentage from what is asked. And if my household is hungry because of the economy and I'm behind in bills so that I cannot afford to pay them, feed my kids and give ten percent, then I should just leave my household without so I can meet this demand, right? After all there's no way around this as you say.



The way you all are so RIGID with this ten percent when I never heard Jesus or the apostles command it makes me wonder if you think God sets parameters. This is probably why some people become ministers because after all, they don't have to work (like Paul did or serve like Jesus did. Never mind the fact that both Paul and Jesus were setting examples for them to follow). All they have to do is wait for Sunday since they will get 10% from everyone. And what more does this message say, God only wants 10% so the other 90% is all yours to do with it as you please. They don't have to give anymore because "God only wants 10%". Do you see how crazy that sounds?

In Jesus' sermons, He made it clear that He didn't want a fraction from us. He wanted all. From telling people to sell all and follow him to telling them that anyone who doesn't denounce all he has cannot be his disciples. To drive that point home, He even said that "if you don't hate your own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, you can't be his disciple". For One who commanded we must love to challenge us to hate in order to drive home the point that the people who matter most to us must fade in comparison to Him, and that the devotion/love (dare I say percentage?) we ought to give to Him should be so great that it's at the far opposite end of the spectrum of what we give our loved ones shows what sort of sacrifice He expects from us.

But is He saying to give this to the church or the Pastor? No, he repeatedly talks of giving to those without in more places than one. Does he talk about firstfruits? Or a percentage thereof? No. He talks of giving what you have. He mentions food, clothes, shelter....

It's not about it being the law... It's not a do/die affair. It's a choice. Tithing is an act of worship and of faith. It's about putting God above your bills and your circumstances, trusting Him to mind your business as you put His business first. Holding back your tithe because of a bad economy and this and that = fear. Fear of running out, fear of not having enough an dnot being able to meet your bills, fear of this, fear of that. God has not given us a spirit of fear. Paying your tithe in the midst of uncertainty like the widow did = Trust in God. It says, God I trust you and put you first, I trust you to take better care of me than my money can. It also puts you in check in that the money doesn't own you and you don't become a slave to it. 2 months ago, I had a lot of financial needs to satisfy before my next payday. I still tithed and I didn't lack that month at all. God took care of me I believe.

The principle of first fruits run throughout the bible. From Cain and Abel, through to the end. God deserves the best and only the best, not the left overs. Giving a tenth is also scriptural but besides that, how do you personally give to those without ... those without food/shelter ... those emotionally damaged and lost, the prostitute that has never known love in her life, and I could go on. We give to the church to advance the kingdom of Heaven by projects within the church such as spiritual growth, counselling, and everything the church does and also projects outside the regular church, such as feeding the needy and providing assistance to struggling families or communities within and outside the church. The church like any 'institution' for lack of a better word needs money to do things. Who best to provide the money than the members?

 

[topsyturvy86]

I've never tithed nor given out of the 'law'. I've done so because I believe God. He has never failed to take care of me and my family. Even when I had nothing and yet still gave, God has always proven Himself faithful and sustained me and my family.

Nonie... it goes beyond the 'law', way beyond. I have lived the days of having limited to no funds to pay my bills and I just trusted God giving to Him anyway.

I looked at the widow in I Kings when Elijah told her to make him a cake first... this was all the woman had left to feed both her and her son. Yet, she fed him and she and her son ate... even during a famine in the land...the recession.

When God says to prove Him, to trust Him, He never fails us. I don't have to go out my way to disprove Him, neither do I have to suffer to prove Him, I simply believe Him and He shows up each and every time.

I can understand the 'fear' of those who are in dire straits... I've been there and I mean I've been there. One day, I had to look at God and just believe Him... NOT man, but Him and His Word which made a promise to me and I have never looked back. God is faithful and He honors those who believe Him. It's not about the 'law', it's faith that pleases God and nothing less. :Rose: :Rose:

This is beautiful Shimmie! Exactly what I was trying to articulate a few moments ago but wasn't quite hitting it. Thanks for being here and sharing your views

 

[Laela]

What about God's Divine Law? This is the only 'law' I'm referring to.

Today, is it not internalized on the hearts of men through the Holy Spirit?

 

[mz tracy 25]

Sometimes we need to humble ourselves, swallow our pride and admit it when we are wrong, or do not understand something. But, sometimes we rather try to prove our point, although we realize that we may in fact be wrong.

Nonie great job explaining tithing. You've opened my eyes a little more, and I'm going to do more research about this subject Thanx!

 

[Nonie]

I've never tithed nor given out of the 'law'. I've done so because I believe God. He has never failed to take care of me and my family. Even when I had nothing and yet still gave, God has always proven Himself faithful and sustained me and my family.

Nonie... it goes beyond the 'law', way beyond. I have lived the days of having limited to no funds to pay my bills and I just trusted God giving to Him anyway.

I looked at the widow in I Kings when Elijah told her to make him a cake first... this was all the woman had left to feed both her and her son. Yet, she fed him and she and her son ate... even during a famine in the land...the recession.

When God says to prove Him, to trust Him, He never fails us. I don't have to go out my way to disprove Him, neither do I have to suffer to prove Him, I simply believe Him and He shows up each and every time.

I can understand the 'fear' of those who are in dire straits... I've been there and I mean I've been there. One day, I had to look at God and just believe Him... NOT man, but Him and His Word which made a promise to me and I have never looked back. God is faithful and He honors those who believe Him. It's not about the 'law', it's faith that pleases God and nothing less. :Rose: :Rose:

I think we're on different wavelengths Shimmie. I have not once said that I will not give because I am worried about the survival of my home. You might have gathered that I felt that way from when I said that there are people who rob Peter to pay Pastor Paul so to speak. And that IS a fact, as I have seen it in people I know who will not put one foot out of line with what their Pastor says, never questioning it lest they be cursed. And the reason these people overstretch themselves at the expense of their own households (an act that is considered immoral in the Bible) is because they have been told they must give 1/10 or else. THAT is what I refuse to accept.

What I have been saying is I will not put a number on what I give to God. And I will not join with all who think that giving to God means putting a 1/10 of my income (gross income???? Again I'm sorry but I know paycheck = net income; wages/salary = gross income. So it might just be semantics here) in the plate that goes around in church. I will give to God by giving to those in need; those whom Jesus encouraged me to give to. And it's not just about possession, it's about my time too. But try telling that to those who've been benefiting.

Do you know that Abraham whom God loved and made father of all nations never tithed on his possessions?

1 At the time when Amraphel was king of Shinar,[a] Arioch king of Ellasar, Kedorlaomer king of Elam and Tidal king of Goyim, 2 these kings went to war against Bera king of Sodom, Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, Shemeber king of Zeboyim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar). 3 All these latter kings joined forces in the Valley of Siddim (that is, the Dead Sea Valley). 4 For twelve years they had been subject to Kedorlaomer, but in the thirteenth year they rebelled. 5 In the fourteenth year, Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him went out and defeated the Rephaites in Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zuzites in Ham, the Emites in Shaveh Kiriathaim 6 and the Horites in the hill country of Seir, as far as El Paran near the desert. 7 Then they turned back and went to En Mishpat (that is, Kadesh), and they conquered the whole territory of the Amalekites, as well as the Amorites who were living in Hazezon Tamar.
8 Then the king of Sodom, the king of Gomorrah, the king of Admah, the king of Zeboyim and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar) marched out and drew up their battle lines in the Valley of Siddim 9 against Kedorlaomer king of Elam, Tidal king of Goyim, Amraphel king of Shinar and Arioch king of Ellasar—four kings against five. 10 Now the Valley of Siddim was full of tar pits, and when the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, some of the men fell into them and the rest fled to the hills. 11 The four kings seized all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah and all their food; then they went away. 12 They also carried off Abram’s nephew Lot and his possessions, since he was living in Sodom.
13 A man who had escaped came and reported this to Abram the Hebrew. Now Abram was living near the great trees of Mamre the Amorite, a brother[b] of Eshkol and Aner, all of whom were allied with Abram. 14 When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan. 15 During the night Abram divided his men to attack them and he routed them, pursuing them as far as Hobah, north of Damascus. 16 He recovered all the goods and brought back his relative Lot and his possessions, together with the women and the other people.
17 After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley).
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,
“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.
20 And praise be to God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand.”
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
21 The king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself.”
22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “With raised hand I have sworn an oath to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, 23 that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the strap of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, ‘I made Abram rich.’ 24 I will accept nothing but what my men have eaten and the share that belongs to the men who went with me—to Aner, Eshkol and Mamre. Let them have their share.”

Genesis 14

Abraham tithed not his increase but stuff that he captured from the enemy. Surely if God required it of him, then wouldn't the God who punished sin have dealt with him or at least brought it up? But somehow that seemed OK with God too. Just as it was OK for Joshua to go throughout his life not tithing...it seems.

(continued next post)