Things NOT in the Bible

[Nonie]

You know another place where you see an example of the sort of "giving" that many translate tithing to be (ie giving to the church), it's in Numbers. But again, I don't see it being the people's increase or it being firstfruits that are given to the priests. Instead, it's spoils of war. Tithing isn't mentioned here which is very glaring if you ask me if it was really something required of the people of God:

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.” 3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the LORD’s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel.” 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.
7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.
13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.
15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
19 “Anyone who has killed someone or touched someone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood.”
21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, “This is what is required by the law that the LORD gave Moses: 22 Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead 23 and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. 24 On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp.”
Dividing the Spoils

25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 “You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 2728 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, [which is roughly 0.2%] whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD’s part. Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 30 From the Israelites’ half, select one out of every fifty [which is 2%], whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD’s tabernacle.” 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses. 32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.
36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:
337,500 sheep, 37 of which the tribute for the LORD was 675; [0.2%]
38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the LORD was 72; [0.2%]

39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the LORD was 61; [0.2%]
40 16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the LORD was 32. [0.2%]

41 Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the LORD’s part, as the LORD commanded Moses. [0.2%]

42 The half belonging to the Israelites, which Moses set apart from that of the fighting men— 43 the community’s half—was 337,500 sheep, 44 36,000 cattle, 45 30,500 donkeys 46 and 16,000 people. 47 From the Israelites’ half, Moses selected one out of every fifty people and animals, [2%] as the LORD commanded him, and gave them to the Levites, who were responsible for the care of the LORD’s tabernacle.
48 Then the officers who were over the units of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—went to Moses 49 and said to him, “Your servants have counted the soldiers under our command, and not one is missing. 50 So we have brought as an offering to the LORD the gold articles each of us acquired—armlets, bracelets, signet rings, earrings and necklaces—to make atonement for ourselves before the LORD.”
51 Moses and Eleazar the priest accepted from them the gold—all the crafted articles. 52 All the gold from the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds that Moses and Eleazar presented as a gift to the LORD weighed 16,750 shekels.[a] 53 Each soldier had taken plunder for himself. 54 Moses and Eleazar the priest accepted the gold from the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds and brought it into the tent of meeting as a memorial for the Israelites before the LORD.

Numbers 31

If tithing was an essential part of living for God as modern doctrines would have you believe, with all the decrees God gave the Israelites, why is it that there is no mention of it throughout Exodus, say. When the people of Israel were in the wilderness and got the increase of manna, why weren't they asked to tithe that? As important as "tithing" seems to be "according to modern preachers", it's oddly missing in a lot of the directives God gave his people on how to live in a way that pleases Him.

Bottom line, I do live as Matthew 6:25-33 advises, so I am not worried about going w/o because I gave God. I refuse to do is following a man-made rule made in the guise of being God command when His Only Begotten Son not once made it clear to me that I am to do as modern doctrines demand: give 10% of my gross income to the church.

But I don't think we will ever agree on this, so while you continue to abide by that doctrine, I will abide by these words:

6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness. 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ.
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh[b] was put off when you were circumcised by[c] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[e]

Colossians 2:6-15

 

[Shimmie]

You know another place where you see an example of the sort of "giving" that many translate tithing to be (ie giving to the church), it's in Numbers. But again, I don't see it being the people's increase or it being firstfruits that are given to the priests. Instead, it's spoils of war. Tithing isn't mentioned here which is very glaring if you ask me if it was really something required of the people of God:

Numbers 31

If tithing was an essential part of living for God as modern doctrines would have you believe, with all the decrees God gave the Israelites, why is it that there is no mention of it throughout Exodus, say. When the people of Israel were in the wilderness and got the increase of manna, why weren't they asked to tithe that? As important as "tithing" seems to be "according to modern preachers", it's oddly missing in a lot of the directives God gave his people on how to live in a way that pleases Him.

Bottom line, I do live as Matthew 6:25-33 advises, so I am not worried about going w/o because I gave God. I refuse to do is following a man-made rule made in the guise of being God command when His Only Begotten Son not once made it clear to me that I am to do as modern doctrines demand: give 10% of my gross income to the church.

But I don't think we will ever agree on this, so while you continue to abide by that doctrine, I will abide by these words:

Colossians 2:6-15

Nonie, something is very sad here and is amiss with all that you've shared in both scripture and with your personal views; for they only add up to what you choose to believe.

The sadness is that to further your belief, you continue to condemn every Pastor of being unworthy. You've presented them as 'takers' only [provided that they receive 'food' as their pay and not money]. With all of the scripture you've shared, you've come forth with the appearance of condemnation for 'all' Pastors who receive the tithes of money to their Churches.

I realize there are bad apples out there, but not all, neither the majority. No one is held captive in anything unless they choose to be. There is no captivity in tithing, only by love and faith. Just as there is no captivity in worshiping God and praising Him, it is done by love and faith and in gratitude.

If you or other folks choose not to tithe, that's fine. But this bashing of Pastors and Ministers and the Church has got to stop. It's unmerited and it's not Jesus nor any scripture in God's word. When God is sharing the Truth, He speaks the Truth without misrepresentation or bearing a false witness to get His point across.

If your concept of a Pastor is to walk around with holes in his clothes, eating only what someone gives him at their discretion, having only one pair of shoes and yet work his life to the bone while others live in luxury ....

Hey.... it's like that. There are Pastors who have literally nothing and yet everything is expected of them from selfish, uncaring congregants and those who look from the 'outside', passing undue judgments upon them...unjustly.

Something is amiss. And it's not tithing, it's a heart of bitterness which needs to see these men and women of God justly.

In love... :Rose:

 

[Nonie]

^^Shimmie, my only emphasis on Pastors' corruption is only because the idea of giving to them 10% of gross income as a REQUIREMENT is a lie. And that Pastors continue to preach it makes me find them inappropriate and reeking of having personal agendas.

I do not truly believe all Pastors are thieves, or I wouldn't listen to any of them. I keep throwing that in there because this LIE reeks of greed and as long as people continue to propagate it in the name of God, then they are not speaking in Truth. If they will call it tithing then let them treat tithes as the Old Testament did where the total amount of the tithe was used to commune with all in their fellowship and with those who had nothing. From that offering soup kitchens should be born.

I mentioned in one of my posts that if all Pastors would instead free people to give as they are able...so that there was no pressure and if they WORKED instead of just waiting for handouts (Yes, I said it, because there are many who do and who truly follow in Paul's example), and if their ministry was truly in the practice of giving back, I bet my bottom dollar that not only would the ministry prosper, but they too would never be lacking in anything and no one in their congregation would be lacking either. And the giving would abound in ways that glorify God. Because God's word would be in that place.

I also stated in a lot of my posts that I am not saying not to give to the church but I am saying DO NOT GIVE your entire contribution to the church when there are so many in need. Jesus already named a few, and Paul also encouraged it as it will bring glory to God. And I know some may argue that the church takes it and gives it to the poor and the widowed, etc... What about you? Will you be the one who left the King without? I don't think "indirect" service is the message Jesus was trying to send. We are to give to those without DIRECTLY from what we have...and not from a small fraction of it.

The total disregard of all that is taught about giving in favor of putting 10% of gross income in the offering plate is wherein my grievances lie. I don't agree with it, and if any Pastor finds it OK, then s/he isn't one from whom I wish to get my nourishment.

That's all.

So in case you still don't get it, I'm not so naive as to think all Pastors are conmen. There are many who do not make such crazy demands as those who use Malachi as their excuse to compel the masses to bring them 10% of their income. There are many who share God's truth and live by example. And I give thanks for those and those who actually read the entire Bible and share its truth selflessly and who allow people to give freely whatever their heart leads them to give.

And yes, I do get angry about people who propagate lies in the name of Truth and mislead. Jesus gave a stern warning about leading His children astray and if people feared God, they'd be careful what it is they tell His children.

 

[Shimmie]

^^Shimmie, my only emphasis on Pastors' corruption is only because the idea of giving to them 10% of gross income as a REQUIREMENT is a lie. And that Pastors continue to preach it makes me find them inappropriate and reeking of having personal agendas.

I do not truly believe all Pastors are thieves, or I wouldn't listen to any of them. I keep throwing that in there because this LIE reeks of greed and as long as people continue to propagate it in the name of God, then they are not speaking in Truth. If they will call it tithing then let them treat tithes as the Old Testament did where the total amount of the tithe was used to commune with all in their fellowship and with those who had nothing. From that offering soup kitchens should be born.

I mentioned in one of my posts that if all Pastors would instead free people to give as they are able...so that there was no pressure and if they WORKED instead of just waiting for handouts (Yes, I said it, because there are many who do and who truly follow in Paul's example), and if their ministry was truly in the practice of giving back, I bet my bottom dollar that not only would the ministry prosper, but they too would never be lacking in anything and no one in their congregation would be lacking either. And the giving would abound in ways that glorify God. Because God's word would be in that place.

I also stated in a lot of my posts that I am not saying not to give to the church but I am saying DO NOT GIVE your entire contribution to the church when there are so many in need. Jesus already named a few, and Paul also encouraged it as it will bring glory to God. And I know some may argue that the church takes it and gives it to the poor and the widowed, etc... What about you? Will you be the one who left the King without? I don't think "indirect" service is the message Jesus was trying to send. We are to give to those without DIRECTLY from what we have...and not from a small fraction of it.

The total disregard of all that is taught about giving in favor of putting 10% of gross income in the offering plate is wherein my grievances lie. I don't agree with it, and if any Pastor finds it OK, then s/he isn't one from whom I wish to get my nourishment.

That's all.

So in case you still don't get it, I'm not so naive as to think all Pastors are conmen. There are many who do not make such crazy demands as those who use Malachi as their excuse to compel the masses to bring them 10% of their income. There are many who share God's truth and live by example. And I give thanks for those and those who actually read the entire Bible and share its truth selflessly and who allow people to give freely whatever their heart leads them to give.

And yes, I do get angry about people who propagate lies in the name of Truth and mislead. Jesus gave a stern warning about leading His children astray and if people feared God, they'd be careful what it is they tell His children.

Nonie, your theory is not coming from God's Word as you wish it to be. It's simply not. Again, I am not contending with you. However, there is no way that you can validate your personal theory; there is much amiss in what you have shared as God's word, it's not validated.

You have a strong will about what you choose to do with your money when you wish to do so, and it is not based upon faith or the word of God. It's based upon what you've made up your mind to follow which is your own free will and your own right. You are entitled to your free will.

However, in your posts you are still disparaging the integrity of Pastors who do not deserve it. You're taking a few Pastors who have [sinned] and classified all as such.

You are saying that all Pastor's are propagating lies if they receive tithes. Nonie, this is not coming from the heart of God. Instead it's what you have chosen to believe.

Your choice and interpretation of scripture is your choice; but to accuse Pastors such as you have, is to propagate distrust in the Body of Christ where it doesn't belong.

Money is a very sensitive issue and I am so glad that it doesn't push me to this limit of disparaging a true man or woman of God who is truly doing God's work whether I give to them or not.

You take care... nothing more. :Rose:

 

[Nonie]

OK, Shimmie. I can't share anymore than I have. And I can't get you to see my point so I will just rest my case on this topic after this post.

My point has been that preaching that we must give 10% of our gross income is not in the Bible. It's not the tithing talked off in the bible, and it is this LIE I am against. Why you keep saying that I am blaming all Pastors is beyond me. What I am saying is Pastors who tell people this are not speaking God's truth, because God does not say that.

Twisting God's words is wrong. Putting numbers in God's message to us to give too is wrong. I did not say do not give to Pastors. I said Pastors should not be the only recipients. I do not understand how I can repeat this one message over and over and over again, and all I keep hearing from you is "not all Pastors are crooked". I agree. I then tell you which ones are. The ones who sorta kinda change the message and leave out the important bits that would be to tell their congregation, "Take 10% or whatever your are able to give and not just bring it to church, but give some of it to the poor, the widowed...as Jesus willed that we do". That message is hardly preached as much as that of tithing. And if you ask 90% of people what tithing is, they will tell you it is giving 10% of their income to the church period. They will not tell you it is taking 10% of their increase and splitting it between the church, a few charities, some goodies to take to a nursing home, and a food drive for the soup kitchen or food assistance society. Tithing to many doesn't even bring to mind the idea of partaking in the feast with others especially the needy and giving thanks and praise to God. A very important part of the tithing message that is lost in the loud shouting of the message to give it all to the church.

I am not lying. I am not accusing all preachers. I am not making up anything. Rather, I am taking the words you and others are posting and holding them up against the light of Scripture and showing where they stray from the truth. The words "God wants 10% of our gross income" have been echoed over and over, but I am yet to see this pointed out in Scripture.

Question: Are you a Pastor/preacher? I ask because you have held onto that "accusation" with such passion even after I have pointed out that not all are guilty as if I stepped on your toes. I never said those who take money are doing wrong (Didn't I say a few times "I'm not saying don't give to the church? Which goes to show I have no problem with it otherwise why would I even suggest it?). If you are truly reading my posts and not just glossing over them to find out what it is I am saying that you don't agree with, you will see that I gave an example of my friend's pastor who lives in the way you described of true servants of God: Those who do work and give back and feed/clothe/care for those Jesus would have us give to. I mentioned him getting donations out of the free will of his congregation. In case I wasn't clear, I was applauding this man's integrity.

I also have been saying that instead of just about suffocating folks with "you must give 10% of your gross income" if Pastors simply said "Give what the Spirit leads you to give, and do not forget to hold onto some so that you may give to the poor"...then that would be more in accordance to the Bible's directive on how to tithe.

Shimmie, please read my posts. Stop focusing on what I said about Pastors who seem to fit the description "Satan masquerading as an angel of light". And yes, they do exist! I do not view Pastors as gods beyond rebuke or fault so when I see wrongdoing, I will call it out. I never said ALL Pastors are liars, but I did say that any that tells me something but cannot back it up with Scripture or explain the reason for the deviation from what it is that is written gets the side-eye from me and I will not partake of what they are serving.

The last two or so posts you have written have dismissed what I've said to caution me about putting all Pastors in a dark pit, when I have done no such thing. And I do not take back anything I have said. I even talked to God about it because I feel at peace for sharing His truth.

Like I said, if you read my posts, you would see I have only challenged the doctrine that leads people to think they must give 10% of their gross income to the church. Yes, I went hard, because the more I heard it, the more I felt a need to expose the folly of such teaching. But I do think there's something very wrong if churches feel it is OK to guilt people into giving 10% to the church. YOU may not feel pressured by that doctrine but it is a wrong doctrine and many who are still young in their walk have not got to the place where you are, so it would be nice if they learned the truth. Let the Spirit lead them to give to those God wills that they give to, not be bullied into doing it by some made up rule demanding they give 10% of their bring-home pay and a bit more to the church.

I apologize if you were offended by anything I wrote and pray that we may all be vigilant and always armed with the Sword of the Spirit (ie the Word of God) so that we may be ready to confront untruths even when they come to us undercover.

Goodnight all and God bless.

 

[Nonie]

This conversation has gone in different directions and I don't know where to start but i'll try from this post.



It's not about it being the law... It's not a do/die affair. It's a choice. Tithing is an act of worship and of faith. It's about putting God above your bills and your circumstances, trusting Him to mind your business as you put His business first. Holding back your tithe because of a bad economy and this and that = fear. Fear of running out, fear of not having enough an dnot being able to meet your bills, fear of this, fear of that. God has not given us a spirit of fear. Paying your tithe in the midst of uncertainty like the widow did = Trust in God. It says, God I trust you and put you first, I trust you to take better care of me than my money can. It also puts you in check in that the money doesn't own you and you don't become a slave to it. 2 months ago, I had a lot of financial needs to satisfy before my next payday. I still tithed and I didn't lack that month at all. God took care of me I believe.

The principle of first fruits run throughout the bible. From Cain and Abel, through to the end. God deserves the best and only the best, not the left overs. Giving a tenth is also scriptural but besides that, how do you personally give to those without ... those without food/shelter ... those emotionally damaged and lost, the prostitute that has never known love in her life, and I could go on. We give to the church to advance the kingdom of Heaven by projects within the church such as spiritual growth, counselling, and everything the church does and also projects outside the regular church, such as feeding the needy and providing assistance to struggling families or communities within and outside the church. The church like any 'institution' for lack of a better word needs money to do things. Who best to provide the money than the members?

I just want to answer you Topsy coz I hadn't seen your post. I have never been afraid that if I tithe I won't have. And I do tithe. Only I don't define tithing as giving 10% of my gross income to the church. I do give w/o knowing where tomorrow's bounty will come from, because as I've shared before, I live by Matthew 6:25-33.

I mentioned leaving your home destitute to give to the church simply because the message "God expects 10% of your gross income" doesn't sound like it gives one a choice. It sounds more like it's something you have to do or you let God down. And so IF one isn't able to give 10%, then what? Just disobey this week? Or borrow so you can meet your quota. You say it's not a do or die thing, but if I had the energy to go back to the times when the definition of tithing I don't agree with has been mentioned, it was always in contrasts to Poohbear's message that it is not what God says. Pooh's message was "give what you are able" and I support that. But as Shimmie said, there was no way around it--which in to me sounds like saying you have no choice.

You ask how do you give to those without shelter? Food drive, volunteering to help out in a soup kitchen, going shopping on a whim and picking up a few cans of food for lady at the grocery store whom you saw having to put them out of her basket because the change she had fell short. Taking that coat and those gloves you no longer wear and giving to the poor homeless man who was shivering in the cold. Trust me, if you ask God to show you how you can give to those Jesus told us were most deserving, He will show you.

I have not once said members should not give to the church. I will reiterate what I've been saying all along...giving it all (that 10% or whatever!) to the church is not what we've been commanded to do. If we do that, we disobey the word of God which seems to encourage a ministry of giving to the poor. If you read all my posts you would have seen I said that if preachers stopped putting numbers on what people should give but let them give as they are able/willing, and encouraged that they also remember the poor in their giving--making it clear that they didn't expect 10%--then methinks that institution would never lack money to do the things you speak of. It's the greed/selfishness that seems to forget the poor or to nominate oneself as the divider to the poor when Jesus would have us do our part in giving to the poor (not indirectly but directly) that makes me kinda twitch. Again the made-up doctrine is what I'm against, not giving to the church.

 

[topsyturvy86]

I just want to answer you Topsy coz I hadn't seen your post. I have never been afraid that if I tithe I won't have. And I do tithe. Only I don't define tithing as giving 10% of my gross income to the church. I do give w/o knowing where tomorrow's bounty will come from, because as I've shared before, I live by Matthew 6:25-33.

I mentioned leaving your home destitute to give to the church simply because the message "God expects 10% of your gross income" doesn't sound like it gives one a choice. It sounds more like it's something you have to do or you let God down. And so IF one isn't able to give 10%, then what? Just disobey this week? Or borrow so you can meet your quota. You say it's not a do or die thing, but if I had the energy to go back to the times when the definition of tithing I don't agree with has been mentioned, it was always in contrasts to Poohbear's message that it is not what God says. Pooh's message was "give what you are able" and I support that. But as Shimmie said, there was no way around it--which in to me sounds like saying you have no choice.

You ask how do you give to those without shelter? Food drive, volunteering to help out in a soup kitchen, going shopping on a whim and picking up a few cans of food for lady at the grocery store whom you saw having to put them out of her basket because the change she had fell short. Taking that coat and those gloves you no longer wear and giving to the poor homeless man who was shivering in the cold. Trust me, if you ask God to show you how you can give to those Jesus told us were most deserving, He will show you.

I have not once said members should not give to the church. I will reiterate what I've been saying all along...giving it all (that 10% or whatever!) to the church is not what we've been commanded to do. If we do that, we disobey the word of God which seems to encourage a ministry of giving to the poor. If you read all my posts you would have seen I said that if preachers stopped putting numbers on what people should give but let them give as they are able/willing, and encouraged that they also remember the poor in their giving--making it clear that they didn't expect 10%--then methinks that institution would never lack money to do the things you speak of. It's the greed/selfishness that seems to forget the poor or to nominate oneself as the divider to the poor when Jesus would have us do our part in giving to the poor (not indirectly but directly) that makes me kinda twitch. Again the made-up doctrine is what I'm against, not giving to the church.

I tithe my net and not my gross; meaning I tithe after tax because that is my disposable income. However, I do not disagree with those that tithe out of their gross. It is as the spirit leads (ETA on this, the author of the purpose driven life, Rick Warren tithed 90% of his proceeds from the book to charity. He apparently usually tithes 90% of his income to his Church). If you have nothing, you have nothing, you can't give a percentage of what you don't have so you don't have to borrow to pay your tithe. As I said, it's not a do or die thing, it's a choice. You can choose to or not to pay your tithe without breaking any law. You seem to be fighting against a 'rigidity' of Christianity that isn't even there!

We are commissioned to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey the everything God commanded (Matthew 28:16 - 20). How do you personally do this? We have been commanded to love our neighbour as ourselves, feed the poor, and so on. How far can you reach going it alone? I care about children poor and destitute in areas in the world that you can't even imagine the living conditions. I'm not able to go physically to those Countries to do anything about it as it isn't my calling right now. To help, through my Church I am able to sponsor a child in Uganda by giving a certain about of money every month which allows someone on the ground provide his needs; helping him get a good education, buying what he needs, ensuring he has a good childhood and things like that. My church has helped in alleviating a whole village in Uganda from poverty, feeding street Children in India and giving them the childhood they deserve, rescuing those that are sex trafficced and helping them get their dignity and lives back on track, helping the elderly in the community, gives Christmas hampers and love to the prostitutes, and a few more. They are allowing themselves to be God's hand and feet spreading the love of Christ around the world. My previous church used to plant churches in difficult places like Turkey and to win souls for Christ. If everyone stopped tithing to the church, they would only be able to do half of what they can do. A lot of the things we're called to do are near impossible to do on our own and that is why we are a body. I do not in a million years see how giving to the church is disobeying the word of God. The church is Jesus's bride of whom He is very passionate. How can giving to enrich the bride of Christ be against the word of God?

 

[Crown]

Tithing/giving : Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

With all the verses presented here to explain it, don’t forget :

Mat. 15: 3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

1Tim. 5 : 4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.

[FONT=&quot]8[FONT=&quot] Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Nonie]

I tithe my net and not my gross; meaning I tithe after tax because that is my disposable income. However, I do not disagree with those that tithe out of their gross. It is as the spirit leads (ETA on this, the author of the purpose driven life, Rick Warren tithed 90% of his proceeds from the book to charity. He apparently usually tithes 90% of his income to his Church). If you have nothing, you have nothing, you can't give a percentage of what you don't have so you don't have to borrow to pay your tithe. As I said, it's not a do or die thing, it's a choice. You can choose to or not to pay your tithe without breaking any law. You seem to be fighting against a 'rigidity' of Christianity that isn't even there!

We are commissioned to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey the everything God commanded (Matthew 28:16 - 20). How do you personally do this? We have been commanded to love our neighbour as ourselves, feed the poor, and so on. How far can you reach going it alone? I care about children poor and destitute in areas in the world that you can't even imagine the living conditions. I'm not able to go physically to those Countries to do anything about it as it isn't my calling right now. To help, through my Church I am able to sponsor a child in Uganda by giving a certain about of money every month which allows someone on the ground provide his needs; helping him get a good education, buying what he needs, ensuring he has a good childhood and things like that. My church has helped in alleviating a whole village in Uganda from poverty, feeding street Children in India and giving them the childhood they deserve, rescuing those that are sex trafficced and helping them get their dignity and lives back on track, helping the elderly in the community, gives Christmas hampers and love to the prostitutes, and a few more. They are allowing themselves to be God's hand and feet spreading the love of Christ around the world. My previous church used to plant churches in difficult places like Turkey and to win souls for Christ. If everyone stopped tithing to the church, they would only be able to do half of what they can do. A lot of the things we're called to do are near impossible to do on our own and that is why we are a body. I do not in a million years see how giving to the church is disobeying the word of God. The church is Jesus's bride of whom He is very passionate. How can giving to enrich the bride of Christ be against the word of God?

(I will get to the first paragraph in a bit so below is w/r/t the second paragraph.)

WHEN DID I SAY 'DO NOT GIVE TO THE BRIDE OF GOD'?

OK let me ask you a question, what is wrong with giving to charities who do good causes as well as the Bride of God? What is wrong with taking time out of your life to also play a part in giving as well as giving to the Bride of God? What is wrong with stepping in to help someone in need YOURSELF when you see them in need, instead of just folding your hands because you did your part by giving it all to the church?? Why do people assume that we are simply supposed to pass the buck to the church and do nothing? Where do you get this directive from that it should all fall on the church to take care of the needful? And why the assumption that as far as tithing is concerned giving to the church is ALL God wants you to do? In other words, why are you all so obsessed with giving to the church ALONE? Why is my stating GIVE TO THE CHURCH AS WELL AS TO THE NEEDY considered going against God's will, or translated to be "Nonie said the church should get nothing!"????

It is scary how obsessed with giving to the church people are. I mean to such a degree that my whole entire point that we must not forget the needy (something God's Word emphasizes w/o question) gets interpreted as me suggesting we give nothing to the church.Is it really "all to the church or might as well not give at all" for some? Has the church turned into some idol of sorts so that all sacrifice should be unto it and it alone, never mind who else outside of the church could be blessed?

Also you asked "How far can you reach going it alone?" To borrow a line from the Bible: Oh you of little faith! A child of God never goes it alone. I am never alone. I told you in my last post to you, that if you ask God to show you how, He will. When Schindler took it upon himself to help the Jews escape certain death, he did indeed have to get others to play along, even though they may not have known the master plan. And by himself, and I'm sure God's protection, he came up with a plan that saved the lives of many. He had the wisdom and the will and I believe it was by God's help that he was able to bring his plan to fruition. "How far can you reach going it alone?" Do forget the Omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnipresence of our Father and how He is able to use one to do great things in His name? Please read Hebrews 11 prayerfully and know that if you allow God to show you how you can reach far, He will. Because

If God says pull, He will give you a rope;
If He says ride, He will furnish a horse.
Where God guides, He provides.
​

So again, at the risk of sounding like a broken record , I will repeat:

MY POINT HASN'T BEEN "DO NOT GIVE TO THE CHURCH A CENT OF YOUR MONEY" (That is NOT what I've been saying so please people stop putting words into my mouth!)

MY POINT HAS BEEN DO NOT GIVE TO THE CHURCH AT THE EXPENSE OF/NEGLECTING/FORGETTING/IGNORING THE POOR, THE SICK, THE DESTITUTE...ETC.

And I say this unashamedly or unafraid, because that is the Word of God and not that of man.

If you want to just pass the buck to the church and let them handle it for you, and that's what feels right to you, then by all means do it. After all, what good would it be to do what bothers your spirit? But at least you won't be able to tell God when we meet Him that no one ever pointed this directive out to you. I have planted the seed in someone I'm sure, maybe someone else will water it...and in time it will bear fruit. Or maybe it'll wither... But I feel at peace for not having sat back and not said a thing, when half-truths were being shared as God's Word. Please do not ask me what half-truths because if you haven't figured out from what I have written, then I doubt there's any way I can paint a clearer picture that you can understand. Perhaps it is because there's no need to understand that because it doesn't really edify.

I do want to thank you Topsy your first paragraph (in bold). First I want to assure you I DO KNOW there's no rigidity in Christianity, which is precisely why this whole "God expects 10% of your gross income" business has my panties in a bunch because that's adding a rigidity to Christianity I know doesn't belong. THAT "extra topping" is what I am fighting, not Christianity or God's Word.

Second, I appreciate the "give freely what you are able" message therein (which is what Poohbear brought to this discussion and what I have been in support of all along).

Lastly, mentioning Rick Warren was a perfect example of someone who not only follows the example of Paul, but who also lives in the way I wish all preachers would; not so much give 90% of their income but actually play a part in giving to the church from their increase too (eg other jobs) instead of just expecting their salary and the maintenance of the church to come from just members' contribution.

"Due to the success of his book sales, in 2005 Warren returned his 25 years of salary to the church and discontinued taking a salary. He says he and his wife became "reverse tithers", giving away 90% of their income and living off 10%"
(Nussbaum, Paul (January 26, 2006). "New purpose drives evangelical Warren". Knight Ridder News Service. New purpose drives evangelical Warren | The San Diego Union-Tribune.)
​

And may God continue to bless Rick and to guide him to bring even more glory to His Name!

 

[Nonie]

Tithing/giving : Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

With all the verses presented here to explain it, don’t forget :

Mat. 15: 3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

1Tim. 5 : 4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.

[FONT=&quot]8[FONT=&quot] Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.[/FONT][/FONT]

Amen.

 

[Laela]

A 'reverse tither' is giving 90% of their income and keeping 10%; so, a tither is giving 10% and living off 90%. Where did Warren get this from? I assume the Warrens are doing this consistently (faithfully), if they are living off 10% of their income ? I don't know where their 90% is going, but even it's going outside of the church, he and his wife are faithful tithers of their MONEY. Tradition or faith?

Just what's so wrong with folks CHOOSING to put THEIR money into efforts by the church? It doesn't make them 'lazy' Christians, just as it doesn't make you cursed if you choose not to tithe 10% of your income. I believe that's what Topsy is saying.

Actually, I like what Rick Warren is doing but he's not the only preacher doing this; Fredrick K Price does something similar and lives off less than half of his income. I agree, if more preachers set the example, like Paul, it'll be good. But folks shouldn't have to wait for leaders to show them how to live on God's principles if they have guidance from the Holy Spirit by reading the Bible for themselves.

What do you think about this part of the article, where Warren explains how he increased his tithing, to 'stretch' his faith?

"Kay and I became reverse tithers. When we got married 30 years ago, we began tithing 10%. Each year we would raise our tithe 1% to stretch our faith: 11% the first year, 12% the second year, 13% the third year. Every time I give, it breaks the grip of materialism in my life. Every time I give, it makes me more like Jesus. Every time I give, my heart grows bigger. And so now, we give away 90% and we live on 10%. That was actually the easy part, what to do with the money--just give it away, because I'm storing up treasures in heaven. "

SOURCE: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2005/10/Rick-Warrens-Second-Reformation.aspx?p=1

Lastly, mentioning Rick Warren was a perfect example of someone who not only follows the example of Paul, but who also lives in the way I wish all preachers would; not so much give 90% of their income but actually play a part in giving to the church from their increase too (eg other jobs) instead of just expecting their salary and the maintenance of the church to come from just members' contribution.

"Due to the success of his book sales, in 2005 Warren returned his 25 years of salary to the church and discontinued taking a salary. He says he and his wife became "reverse tithers", giving away 90% of their income and living off 10%"
(Nussbaum, Paul (January 26, 2006). "New purpose drives evangelical Warren". Knight Ridder News Service. New purpose drives evangelical Warren | The San Diego Union-Tribune.)
​

And may God continue to bless Rick and to guide him to bring even more glory to His Name!

 

[topsyturvy86]

(I will get to the first paragraph in a bit so below is w/r/t the second paragraph.)

WHEN DID I SAY 'DO NOT GIVE TO THE BRIDE OF GOD'?

OK let me ask you a question, what is wrong with giving to charities who do good causes as well as the Bride of God? What is wrong with taking time out of your life to also play a part in giving as well as giving to the Bride of God? What is wrong with stepping in to help someone in need YOURSELF when you see them in need, instead of just folding your hands because you did your part by giving it all to the church?? Why do people assume that we are simply supposed to pass the buck to the church and do nothing? Where do you get this directive from that it should all fall on the church to take care of the needful? And why the assumption that as far as tithing is concerned giving to the church is ALL God wants you to do? In other words, why are you all so obsessed with giving to the church ALONE? Why is my stating GIVE TO THE CHURCH AS WELL AS TO THE NEEDY considered going against God's will, or translated to be "Nonie said the church should get nothing!"????

It is scary how obsessed with giving to the church people are. I mean to such a degree that my whole entire point that we must not forget the needy (something God's Word emphasizes w/o question) gets interpreted as me suggesting we give nothing to the church.Is it really "all to the church or might as well not give at all" for some? Has the church turned into some idol of sorts so that all sacrifice should be unto it and it alone, never mind who else outside of the church could be blessed?

Also you asked "How far can you reach going it alone?" To borrow a line from the Bible: Oh you of little faith! A child of God never goes it alone. I am never alone. I told you in my last post to you, that if you ask God to show you how, He will. When Schindler took it upon himself to help the Jews escape certain death, he did indeed have to get others to play along, even though they may not have known the master plan. And by himself, and I'm sure God's protection, he came up with a plan that saved the lives of many. He had the wisdom and the will and I believe it was by God's help that he was able to bring his plan to fruition. "How far can you reach going it alone?" Do forget the Omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnipresence of our Father and how He is able to use one to do great things in His name? Please read Hebrews 11 prayerfully and know that if you allow God to show you how you can reach far, He will. Because

If God says pull, He will give you a rope;
If He says ride, He will furnish a horse.
Where God guides, He provides.
​

So again, at the risk of sounding like a broken record , I will repeat:

MY POINT HASN'T BEEN "DO NOT GIVE TO THE CHURCH A CENT OF YOUR MONEY" (That is NOT what I've been saying so please people stop putting words into my mouth!)

MY POINT HAS BEEN DO NOT GIVE TO THE CHURCH AT THE EXPENSE OF/NEGLECTING/FORGETTING/IGNORING THE POOR, THE SICK, THE DESTITUTE...ETC.

And I say this unashamedly or unafraid, because that is the Word of God and not that of man.

If you want to just pass the buck to the church and let them handle it for you, and that's what feels right to you, then by all means do it. After all, what good would it be to do what bothers your spirit? But at least you won't be able to tell God when we meet Him that no one ever pointed this directive out to you. I have planted the seed in someone I'm sure, maybe someone else will water it...and in time it will bear fruit. Or maybe it'll wither... But I feel at peace for not having sat back and not said a thing, when half-truths were being shared as God's Word. Please do not ask me what half-truths because if you haven't figured out from what I have written, then I doubt there's any way I can paint a clearer picture that you can understand. Perhaps it is because there's no need to understand that because it doesn't really edify.

I do want to thank you Topsy your first paragraph (in bold). First I want to assure you I DO KNOW there's no rigidity in Christianity, which is precisely why this whole "God expects 10% of your gross income" business has my panties in a bunch because that's adding a rigidity to Christianity I know doesn't belong. THAT "extra topping" is what I am fighting, not Christianity or God's Word.

Second, I appreciate the "give freely what you are able" message therein (which is what Poohbear brought to this discussion and what I have been in support of all along).

Lastly, mentioning Rick Warren was a perfect example of someone who not only follows the example of Paul, but who also lives in the way I wish all preachers would; not so much give 90% of their income but actually play a part in giving to the church from their increase too (eg other jobs) instead of just expecting their salary and the maintenance of the church to come from just members' contribution.

"Due to the success of his book sales, in 2005 Warren returned his 25 years of salary to the church and discontinued taking a salary. He says he and his wife became "reverse tithers", giving away 90% of their income and living off 10%"
(Nussbaum, Paul (January 26, 2006). "New purpose drives evangelical Warren". Knight Ridder News Service. New purpose drives evangelical Warren | The San Diego Union-Tribune.)
​

And may God continue to bless Rick and to guide him to bring even more glory to His Name!

For the first part, you did say/imply that and I quote you "giving it all (that 10% or whatever!) to the church is not what we've been commanded to do. If we do that, we disobey the word of God which seems to encourage a ministry of giving to the poor".

To answer your questions individually,

* OK let me ask you a question, what is wrong with giving to charities who do good causes as well as the Bride of God?

Nothing. and I don't think anyone has said there is anything wrong with this and you will find that a lot of people actually do this.


*What is wrong with taking time out of your life to also play a part in giving as well as giving to the Bride of God?

Again, nothing. I don't think anyone thinks or implied anything like this. I personally believe in tithing other things as well such as your time.

* What is wrong with stepping in to help someone in need YOURSELF when you see them in need, instead of just folding your hands because you did your part by giving it all to the church??

Nonie, nothing. and I can recall anyone saying tithing is about folding your hands having given to the church.

* Why do people assume that we are simply supposed to pass the buck to the church and do nothing? Where do you get this directive from that it should all fall on the church to take care of the needful? And why the assumption that as far as tithing is concerned giving to the church is ALL God wants you to do?

Where did you get this idea from??

* In other words, why are you all so obsessed with giving to the church ALONE? Why is my stating GIVE TO THE CHURCH AS WELL AS TO THE NEEDY considered going against God's will, or translated to be "Nonie said the church should get nothing!"????

No one is saying give to the church alone

* Has the church turned into some idol of sorts so that all sacrifice should be unto it and it alone, never mind who else outside of the church could be blessed?

Charity starts at home. A good church however touches lives outside of the church as well.

* ask God to show you how, He will.

I have and He has and still is He is teaching me to pay my tithe and put my faith and trust in Him. It is on my heart to tithe my time as well.

Noni, you are mixing truth with your prejudice against the church and I hope people reading this will pray and ask God directly for clarification. I rest my case and will not be responding anymore. I pray that each and every person reading this thread seeks clarification from God Himself who promised that if we seek, we will find. I pray that He helps us in our own way worship Him in a way that is pleasing and acceptable to Him.

Amen . God bless :Rose:

 

[Nonie]

@Laela... For crying out LOUD. Since you quoted me, I suppose the questions are directed to me. My answers in BLUE.

A 'reverse tither' is giving 90% of their income and keeping 10%; so, a tither is giving 10% and living off 90%. Where did Warren get this from? I assume the Warrens are doing this consistently (faithfully), if they are living off 10% of their income ? I don't know where their 90% is going, but even it's going outside of the church, he and his wife are faithful tithers of their MONEY. Tradition or faith?

I'm sorry Laela but you and I seem to be on different wavelengths. In case you haven't been following, NO ONE QUESTIONS THE DEFINITION OF TITHING. Tithing is giving 1/10 = 10% = 0.01 = "a tenth". My post #42 in this thread quotes Deuteronomy and the first line of my first quote is "22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year." So if you're wondering where Rick Warren got that from, er...same place I got my definition from, perhaps? Or maybe a dictionary. Or maybe someone told him. I haven't got the foggiest idea.

No one questions whether INCOME falls under the umbrella of INCREASE and hence the portion from which our tithe should come. At least I haven't seen it in this thread and I have no argument with that.

Tithing (that word) implies 1/10 whether those who use it realize this or not. And a tithe in the Old Testament was 0.1 of the increase in produce reaped from the farming (animals, crops). In modern day, tithing is applied to money (mostly) but does not have to be exclusively only about money; it could involve the gifts of old.

Are you with me?

Whether the Warrens' practice is tradition or faith, you'd have to ask them. Someone could kneel down by their bed to say a bedtime prayer every single night without fail out of tradition or they could do it out of faith. Only they and God know why they do it, so I cannot answer for the Warrens. *shrug*.

Just what's so wrong with folks CHOOSING to put THEIR money into efforts by the church? It doesn't make them 'lazy' Christians, just as it doesn't make you cursed if you choose not to tithe 10% of your income. I believe that's what Topsy is saying.

Oh there's absolutely nothing wrong with people CHOOSING (important word here!) to put THEIR money (another important adjective! Thanks for the emphasis) into the effort of the church. It doesn't make them 'lazy' Christians (Did someone say it did?) just as it doesn't make you cursed if you choose not to tithe 10% of your income.

I thank you for confirming what I've been saying. People should give what they are able and willing. Or to your words, people should CHOOSE to put THEIR own money into the effort of the church. NO ONE should tell people that God expects them to put 10% of their gross income into the effort of the church. But if each person is free to give as led by the Spirit to give what they are able/willing, then they would be following the directive of the Word of God.

Let me repeat what I've been saying using your words: PASTORS HAVE NO RIGHT TO CHOOSE FOR PEOPLE THE PERCENTAGE OF THEIR GROSS INCOME THEY OUGHT TO GIVE TO THE CHURCH. If people wish to give the entire tithe to the church, it is their wish and no one should get in the way of what they are willing to do with that tithe. If they want to give part of the tithe to the church and part to charities or other needy causes, again they ought to do what their heart leads them to do. If people decide not to tithe but to just give what they are able and willing to give (remember tithing implies 1/10, so 1/5 or 1/20 or anything other than 10% isn't really a tithe if we're to use the word correctly), again they do this freely and so it is good.

Perhaps if I quote something that was said in post #30 and #48 you will see the difference of what Topsy or you just wrote and what it is I'm disagreeing with.

Anyway in answer to your question, why not give it all? Well, God is not asking for it all, only the 10% of our Gross increase. That's all.

Nonie, whatever our 'increase' is, God expects us to give 10% of it. There's no way around this; even with all of the scriptures and notations you've shared.

I disagree. Both statements to someone who doesn't know better would put pressure on that child of God. "If God expects and I don't deliver, or I'm not able, to then I disappoint God." It also ignores the fact that when tithing was talked about in the Old Testament, when the tithe was brought to God's dwelling place, the one who brought it was to eat it in God's presence along with his household and to invite the homeless and the poor to partake in the feast. Tithing meant I who brought 1/10 ate what I brought along with others giving praise and worship to God. (Refer to post #42 in this thread for the Bible reference). That is the Bible's definition of tithing. Also I would like you all to think about something: back in those days, farmers were not the only laborers. There were builders, carpenters, etc. Nowhere do we see them being asked to bring 1/10 of their creations. :scratchch It does make you wonder if perhaps tithing mightn't have been something that applied to just land while everyone else simply brought offerings.

As I shared in post #61:

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Tell the Israelites to bring me an offering. You are to receive the offering for me from everyone whose heart prompts them to give. 3 These are the offerings you are to receive from them: gold, silver and bronze; 4 blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen; goat hair; 5 ram skins dyed red and another type of durable leather[a]; acacia wood; 6 olive oil for the light; spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense; 7 and onyx stones and other gems to be mounted on the ephod and breastpiece.

Exodus 25: 1-7

Notice, this isn't about produce or cattle or their firstfruits nor is it about a tenth thereof. So this isn't about tithing. This is about bringing all sorts of offerings to God's dwelling place, the Tabernacle. I think offering comes closer to defining the giving we do in church, because the tithing of the Bible is more like a Thanksgiving/Worship event/meal from produce. And notice God Himself says Moses is to receive from anyone "whose heart prompts them to give". Nothing in that piece of scripture says God expects His people to give, let alone give a fixed amount of their increase.

Actually, I like what Rick Warren is doing but he's not the only preacher doing this; Fredrick K Price does something similar and lives off less than half of his income. I agree, if more preachers set the example, like Paul, it'll be good. But folks shouldn't have to wait for leaders to show them how to live on God's principles if they have guidance from the Holy Spirit by reading the Bible for themselves.

Your first line echoes what I and others have said. Not sure what your last line is about. I am not sure whether your last line is just a BTW or directed at me which would be redundant because I personally don't wait for leaders to show me how to live which is why I never bought into this lie that "God expects 10% of your gross income" because I get my truth from God's Word. But you have to remember that there are new Christians every day and those in places of leadership need to be held accountable to preach the truth and to follow in the example of Christ lest they mislead those who haven't yet moved to solid food.

What do you think about this part of the article, where Warren explains how he increased his tithing, to 'stretch' his faith?

"Kay and I became reverse tithers. When we got married 30 years ago, we began tithing 10%. Each year we would raise our tithe 1% to stretch our faith: 11% the first year, 12% the second year, 13% the third year. Every time I give, it breaks the grip of materialism in my life. Every time I give, it makes me more like Jesus. Every time I give, my heart grows bigger. And so now, we give away 90% and we live on 10%. That was actually the easy part, what to do with the money--just give it away, because I'm storing up treasures in heaven. "

SOURCE: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2005/10/Rick-Warrens-Second-Reformation.aspx?p=1

I think that is a very noble and praiseworthy thing they did.

 

[makeupgirl]

OK so in reading the recent post about tithing, here is something that I found from gotquestions.com. It provides scripture and insight of what tithing is. If we don't get anything from this, then lets remember the verse 2 Cor 9:7 “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver”

What does the Bible say about Christian tithing?

Question: "What does the Bible say about Christian tithing?"

Answer: Many Christians struggle with the issue of tithing. In some churches tithing is over-emphasized. At the same time, many Christians refuse to submit to the biblical exhortations about making offerings to the Lord. Tithing/giving is intended to be a joy and a blessing. Sadly, that is sometimes not the case in the church today.

Tithing is an Old Testament concept. The tithe was a requirement of the law in which all Israelites were to give 10 percent of everything they earned and grew to the Tabernacle/Temple (Leviticus 27:30; Numbers 18:26; Deuteronomy 14:24; 2 Chronicles 31:5). In fact, the Old Testament Law required multiple tithes which would have pushed the total to around 23.3 percent, not the 10 percent which is generally considered the tithe amount today. Some understand the Old Testament tithe as a method of taxation to provide for the needs of the priests and Levites in the sacrificial system. The New Testament nowhere commands, or even recommends, that Christians submit to a legalistic tithe system. Paul states that believers should set aside a portion of their income in order to support the church (1 Corinthians 16:1-2).

The New Testament nowhere designates a percentage of income a person should set aside, but only says it is to be “in keeping with income” (1 Corinthians 16:2). Some in the Christian church have taken the 10 percent figure from the Old Testament tithe and applied it as a “recommended minimum” for Christians in their giving. The New Testament talks about the importance and benefits of giving. We are to give as we are able. Sometimes that means giving more than 10 percent; sometimes that may mean giving less. It all depends on the ability of the Christian and the needs of the church. Every Christian should diligently pray and seek God’s wisdom in the matter of participating in tithing and/or how much to give (James 1:5). Above all, all tithes and offerings should be given with pure motives and an attitude of worship to God and service to the body of Christ. “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7).


my words:

Tithing is a form of worship and I will admit that some Sundays I don't tithe (usually because I'm not physically at church) but I've learned over the years and from studying the bible that God wants us to give from our hearts, not just tithing but in everything that we give. Give from your heart. If we let our head lead in this, Satan starts to interfere and direct us in the wrong path. tithing is still something I struggle with a lot, because sometimes it's selfish on my part and sometimes it's fear. However, even if you're unable to give anything at all, God knows our hearts.

My advice is to talk to the Lord about this. It's about him at the end of the day. So. let him lead and guide your path and your wallet. What we have, it's from him anyway, so he knows how we should proceed in this very touchy subject.

 

[makeupgirl]

Wanted to share this breakdown of the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant, for anyone interested in doing their own study (the numbers of both sections correspond with one another):


OLD COVENANT

1- A physical covenant based on physical promises.

2- Physical circumcision

3- People did not have God's Holy Spirit and were to obey in the letter of the law.

4- If obeyed in letter of the law, person could live in community, worship at the earthly tabernacle.

5- Had works of law, offerings, animal sacrifices, vows, washings, etc.

6- If law transgressed, physical atonement for certain sins, death penalty for others.

7- Had physical ordinances of divine service and earthly sanctuary.

8- At institution of Old Covenant and earthly tabernacle, blood of animals used for consecration

9- Sons of Aaron were high priest of earthly tabernacle.

10- Priest offered animal sacrifices for justification to earthly tabernacle, high priest went into Holy of Holies only once a year

11- NO direct access to God the Father

12- Could not make a person perfect as pertaining to conscience.

13- Sacrifices ceased to be effective at the time the new spiritual order was established by Jesus.

14- Old Covenant ceased to be effective after the death of Jesus.


________________________________________________________________________________________________
NEW COVENANT

1- A spiritual covenant based on spiritual promises and eternal life.
Exodus 19:5-6;
Deuteronomy 28; Leviticus 26
John 3:16; Hebrews 8:6, 9:15;
Romans 8; Luke 18:29-30

2- Repentance and circumcision of the heart through baptism.
Genesis 17:9;
Exodus 12:48; John 7:22
Acts 2:38, 3:19; Romans 2:25-29;
Philippians 3:3; Jeremiah 4:4;
Colossians 2:11-13

3- Converted believers have the gift of God's Spirit and are to obey in the spirit of the law.
Romans 7:6;
Hebrews 8:7-9; Matthew 5:21-45
Matthew 5:21-48, 6:1-34; Acts 2:38;
Romans 7:6, 8:9-10; Galatians 2:20;
Hebrews 8:10-12, 10:16

4- Believe in Christ and obey in the spirit, have direct access to worship God in heaven through Jesus.
Hebrews 9:13; Galatians 3:12;
Leviticus 18:5; 2 Corinthians 3:16
John 4:23-24, 16:23-27;
Hebrews 6:20, 10:23; Romans 8:9-39;
Ephesians 2:18-22; 2 Corinthians 3:6

5- Have Jesus' sacrifice, fruits of the Holy Spirit, prayer and good works.
Leviticus 1-7
Hebrews 9:10, 10:12, 13:15;
Galatians 5:22-24; Ephesians 2:10;
Romans 12:1-2; Revelation 8:3-5;
Matthew 19:17; Mark 15:15-18

6- If law transgressed, forgiveness upon repentance, second death for unpardonable sin.
Hebrews 9:7-10; 2 Corinthians 3
Hebrews 8:5, 9:1-28, 10:16-31;
Revelation 20:14-15, 21:8;
2 Corinthians 3

7- Has actual divine service and a heavenly sanctuary.
Hebrews 9:1-5
Hebrews 8:5; 9:1-5, 24-28; 10:16-31;
Revelation 8:3-4

8- At institution of New Covenant and heavenly tabernacle, blood of Jesus used for consecration
Hebrews 9:18-23;
Exodus 24:3-8, 40:1-38
Luke 22:19-22;
1 Corinthians 11:23-32;
Hebrews 9:14-28, 10:5-14

9- Christ is High Priest of heavenly tabernacle forever.
Hebrews 8:3-5; Exodus 28:1
Hebrews 4:14-16, 5:1-9, 7:17;
Hebrews 8:1-2, 9:11

10- Christ offered Himself once as sacrifice for world's sins, all who repent and are baptized are made right with God in heavenly tabernacle
Hebrews 5:1-3, 9:1-13
Hebrews 7:25-27, 9:23-28
Acts 11:18; Galatians 2:20; Romans 3:24-25

11- Direct access to the Father through Jesus
Hebrews 9:6-8; 10:19
Matthew 27:51; Hebrews 4:14-16;
Ephesians 7:25-27; John 16; Galatians 4:6-7;
Romans 8:15; Ephesians 2:18

12- Forgives sin spiritually and purges the conscience through the work of the Holy Spirit unto perfection
Hebrews 9:9; 10:4, 11
Hebrews 10:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:9;
Colossians 1:27; Matthew 5:48;
Philippians 2:5, 3:9-17; Ephesians 4

13- Christ's one supreme sacrifice applies to EVERY human who accepts it.
Hebrews 9:9-10; Daniel 9:27
Hebrews 10:10-14

14- New Covenant established after Christ's resurrection and ascension to God.
Hebrews 8:13; 10:9; Matthew 27:51
Hebrews 8:13; Matthew 27:51

Source: BibleStudy.org

Thanks for posting this. This I did not know. Or I was taught but didn't obtain it.

 

[Nonie]

For the first part, you did say/imply that and I quote you "giving it all (that 10% or whatever!) to the church is not what we've been commanded to do. If we do that, we disobey the word of God which seems to encourage a ministry of giving to the poor".

To answer your questions individually,

* OK let me ask you a question, what is wrong with giving to charities who do good causes as well as the Bride of God?

Nothing. and I don't think anyone has said there is anything wrong with this and you will find that a lot of people actually do this.


*What is wrong with taking time out of your life to also play a part in giving as well as giving to the Bride of God?

Again, nothing. I don't think anyone thinks or implied anything like this. I personally believe in tithing other things as well such as your time.

* What is wrong with stepping in to help someone in need YOURSELF when you see them in need, instead of just folding your hands because you did your part by giving it all to the church??

Nonie, nothing. and I can recall anyone saying tithing is about folding your hands having given to the church.

* Why do people assume that we are simply supposed to pass the buck to the church and do nothing? Where do you get this directive from that it should all fall on the church to take care of the needful? And why the assumption that as far as tithing is concerned giving to the church is ALL God wants you to do?

Where did you get this idea from??

* In other words, why are you all so obsessed with giving to the church ALONE? Why is my stating GIVE TO THE CHURCH AS WELL AS TO THE NEEDY considered going against God's will, or translated to be "Nonie said the church should get nothing!"????

No one is saying give to the church alone

* Has the church turned into some idol of sorts so that all sacrifice should be unto it and it alone, never mind who else outside of the church could be blessed?

Charity starts at home. A good church however touches lives outside of the church as well.

* ask God to show you how, He will.

I have and He has and still is He is teaching me to pay my tithe and put my faith and trust in Him. It is on my heart to tithe my time as well.

Noni, you are mixing truth with your prejudice against the church and I hope people reading this will pray and ask God directly for clarification. I rest my case and will not be responding anymore. I pray that each and every person reading this thread seeks clarification from God Himself who promised that if we seek, we will find. I pray that He helps us in our own way worship Him in a way that is pleasing and acceptable to Him.

Amen . God bless :Rose:

I do not take back what I said. I will in fact repeat it: Nowhere in the Bible are we told to take 10% and give to the church and the reason I kept harping on the fact that we are not to give to the church alone is because several times when I suggested that we shouldn't forget the needy too the responses to my statements seemed to not want to accept that the church can get less than 10% and we'd still be in good standing if we gave some of that 10% to the needy. The only directive w/r/t 10% aka tithing of our land's increase is: to put it aside for God and partake of that very same 10% with those in our household and with thee needy in God's presence and to worship Him as we do this.

So yes, I stand by my words that you quoted and by the words in the post you were responding to which I will reiterate here:

MY POINT HASN'T BEEN "DO NOT GIVE TO THE CHURCH A CENT OF YOUR MONEY" (That is NOT what I've been saying so please people stop putting words into my mouth!)

MY POINT HAS BEEN DO NOT GIVE TO THE CHURCH AT THE EXPENSE OF/NEGLECTING/FORGETTING/IGNORING THE POOR, THE SICK, THE DESTITUTE...ETC.

And I say this unashamedly or unafraid, because that is the Word of God and not that of man.
​

As far as taking things to church (God's house), Exodus 25 probably is the closest I can come to that is parallel to "giving to the church" and what the Bible says is the giving should be from everyone whose heart prompts him to give. KJV reads:

Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.

vs 2

Yes, I do have a prejudice but not against the church so again please ask instead of putting words into my mouth. I have a prejudice against Satan's cohorts masquerading as angels of light. I have a prejudice against inaccuracies served in the guise of God's truth. I do test the spirits to see if they are of God and I have a prejudice against any that fail the test.

If my message were that you are to give nothing to the church because the church is evil, then you could make that conclusion about me having a prejudice against the church. But not once have I said that. What I have said is God does not expect you to give 10% of your gross income to the church and that preachers who preach this way are not preaching from God's Word and that I will not feed off their teachings.

So again, do not accuse me falsely. My prejudice has not been against the churches such as the ones you talked about and that you have been a part of. From what I read, they were abiding by God's Word and I pray blessings continue to abound in that place. In my last post to you, I said that as long as people are not being coerced then they are abiding by the Word and I do praise God for their generous hearts. It's the coercion with a man-made rule that I've been against from the time I started posting this and against all preachers who continue to bully people with.

I AM NOT PREJUDICED AGAINST THE CHURCH. And yes, like you, I pray that those who read this thread ask for the Spirit's clarification because obviously there's communication breakdown somewhere or I'd not be sounding like a broken record having to echo myself over and over again.

ETA: For those who are getting the wrong end of the stick from my second sentence in bold, this one:

MY POINT HAS BEEN DO NOT GIVE TO THE CHURCH AT THE EXPENSE OF/NEGLECTING/FORGETTING/IGNORING THE POOR, THE SICK, THE DESTITUTE...ETC.
​

If you had two kids and you gave one at the expense of the other or gave one and neglected the other or gave one and forgot the other or gave one and ignored the other, you'd be basically leaving the second child with nothing...and that's what I was saying is not the message of scripture w/r/t tithing or giving.

 

[Poohbear]

Scripturally, this is what God has to say about 'giving':

Matthew 25:
31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36. Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38. When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39. Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40. And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45. Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

No one here is against giving. Tithing and giving are two different things. This Scripture supports giving, however, it does NOT support tithing in the way today's society sees it (10% of gross income).

We also are the new Levites, with Jesus being our High Priest, thus improving the Old Covenant, not doing away with it. Jesus fulfilled The Law.

Yes, we are the new Levites in a sense... yes, Jesus is our High Priest, and yes, Jesus came to fulfill the Law... however, there are things that are done away with... for instance, how come we are not required to do animal sacrifices anymore for our wrongdoings? Because JESUS CAME TO FULFILL THAT LAW! We no longer have to do that because Jesus sacrificed His life as the precious Lamb of God. All these things of the Old Covenant were done to prove their love for God until the Messiah or Savior came.

Just what's so wrong with folks CHOOSING to put THEIR money into efforts by the church? It doesn't make them 'lazy' Christians, just as it doesn't make you cursed if you choose not to tithe 10% of your income. I believe that's what Topsy is saying.

Actually, I like what Rick Warren is doing but he's not the only preacher doing this; Fredrick K Price does something similar and lives off less than half of his income. I agree, if more preachers set the example, like Paul, it'll be good. But folks shouldn't have to wait for leaders to show them how to live on God's principles if they have guidance from the Holy Spirit by reading the Bible for themselves.

What do you think about this part of the article, where Warren explains how he increased his tithing, to 'stretch' his faith?

"Kay and I became reverse tithers. When we got married 30 years ago, we began tithing 10%. Each year we would raise our tithe 1% to stretch our faith: 11% the first year, 12% the second year, 13% the third year. Every time I give, it breaks the grip of materialism in my life. Every time I give, it makes me more like Jesus. Every time I give, my heart grows bigger. And so now, we give away 90% and we live on 10%. That was actually the easy part, what to do with the money--just give it away, because I'm storing up treasures in heaven."
SOURCE:Pastor Rick Warren of Purpose-Driven Life talks to Beliefnet about Africa, the poor, Jesus Christ, churches, Bible, scripture- Beliefnet.com

Rick Warren is not God nor our standard for how we should give. That's good that he decided to give 1% more each year. That doesn't mean everyone can do that, and it doesn't mean God requires us to give more and more and more! That is what God put on Rick Warren's heart to give. Good for him. God just requires us to give PERIOD. No set standards, restrictions, no limitations, no quotas, nothing! We have freedom in Jesus to give as we are able, not grudgingly and not with force (2 Corinth. 9:7).

And nothing is wrong with folks choosing to put their money into the efforts by the church. Just don't make it like 10% of gross income is God's standard requirement of giving when it's not, and then make it like you're robbing God and will be cursed with a curse for not doing so. We can give more or less.

 

[Poohbear]

Nonie, your theory is not coming from God's Word as you wish it to be. It's simply not. Again, I am not contending with you. However, there is no way that you can validate your personal theory; there is much amiss in what you have shared as God's word, it's not validated.

You have a strong will about what you choose to do with your money when you wish to do so, and it is not based upon faith or the word of God. It's based upon what you've made up your mind to follow which is your own free will and your own right. You are entitled to your free will.

However, in your posts you are still disparaging the integrity of Pastors who do not deserve it. You're taking a few Pastors who have [sinned] and classified all as such.

You are saying that all Pastor's are propagating lies if they receive tithes. Nonie, this is not coming from the heart of God. Instead it's what you have chosen to believe.

Your choice and interpretation of scripture is your choice; but to accuse Pastors such as you have, is to propagate distrust in the Body of Christ where it doesn't belong.

Money is a very sensitive issue and I am so glad that it doesn't push me to this limit of disparaging a true man or woman of God who is truly doing God's work whether I give to them or not.

You take care... nothing more. :Rose:

Your theory is not coming from God's Word. You are bashing Nonie for things she did not say nor imply with her posts. You keep telling her it's her choice what she does and that what she does is not of faith nor of God... how is that? I see that what Nonie does IS according the God's word. How come her choice isn't aligned with God's will according to you? You are not God.

So Shimmie since I MUST obey the LAW then if I gave more I'd be breaking the law, right? Coz that's NOT what I was told to give. I've been told 10% so I'd be breaking the LAW by giving a different percentage from what is asked. And if my household is hungry because of the economy and I'm behind in bills so that I cannot afford to pay them, feed my kids and give ten percent, then I should just leave my household without so I can meet this demand, right? After all there's no way around this as you say.

The way you all are so RIGID with this ten percent when I never heard Jesus or the apostles command it makes me wonder if you think God sets parameters. This is probably why some people become ministers because after all, they don't have to work (like Paul did or serve like Jesus did. Never mind the fact that both Paul and Jesus were setting examples for them to follow). All they have to do is wait for Sunday since they will get 10% from everyone. And what more does this message say, God only wants 10% so the other 90% is all yours to do with it as you please. They don't have to give anymore because "God only wants 10%". Do you see how crazy that sounds?

In Jesus' sermons, He made it clear that He didn't want a fraction from us. He wanted all. From telling people to sell all and follow him to telling them that anyone who doesn't denounce all he has cannot be his disciples. To drive that point home, He even said that "if you don't hate your own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, you can't be his disciple". For One who commanded we must love to challenge us to hate in order to drive home the point that the people who matter most to us must fade in comparison to Him, and that the devotion/love (dare I say percentage?) we ought to give to Him should be so great that it's at the far opposite end of the spectrum of what we give our loved ones shows what sort of sacrifice He expects from us.

But is He saying to give this to the church or the Pastor? No, he repeatedly talks of giving to those without in more places than one. Does he talk about firstfruits? Or a percentage thereof? No. He talks of giving what you have. He mentions food, clothes, shelter....

You know, if we are to understand the Bible, we cannot just take a tiny part of it (Malachi) and blow it up to make it the be-all-and-end-all of God's direction for our lives. We have to read it all to get its full context. We aren't stoning adulterers or sacrificing animals, so can't you all see how sly it is that tithing has been turned around to be "salary for the church" when it was never that? Let's look at that scripture you quoted before you said (again) "there's no way around it":

22Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 [can't argue with that] Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, [not put in a plate that goes back to the Pastor to maintain that church but WE are to eat this tithe in God's presence] so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. [So we may learn to honor and worship the Lord our God always] 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, [Now if the place of God's dwelling is far away, we may sell the firstfruits but again we don't put that money in a plate going around church but we are told instead] and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. [We are to use that money to buy whatever our hearts desire] Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. [Then WE and OUR HOUSEHOLD shall feast in the presence of the Lord (makes me think of how we just celebrated Thanksgiving!)] 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own. [We are told not to forget those who have no land or inheritance of their own] 28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, [Every three years we are to bring 10% x 3 and store it in town so that the poor, those not from around here, the fatherless and those who lost their hubbies but live in our town may come and eat and be satisfied] and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. [So that the Lord our God may bless the work of our hands]
​

I have a friend who was telling me about her Pastor. He has a job besides the service he does for God in the church. The church's finances come not just from the people's heartfelt donations but also from his own contribution. The main thing that the congregation does is feed people during service. So rather than just bring money, the bulk of their support for that ministry is food--the sort of tithing of old according to what we read in the bible. So the pastor doesn't have to worry about what he will eat, and the church's maintenance is a task that all who worship, including the Pastor, take to heart.

If preachers were not demanding 10% claiming it's for God

but were instead serving and following Paul's example, I bet my bottom dollar, they would never be without and buildings would not be falling apart as we are led to believe.

People would give cheerfully and freely according to what they could afford or wanted, and no one would be without, not the giver or the receiver. But this crazy rule has churches living it up--and you all know MAJORITY of them are so let's not act brand new--while the congregation is living way below the level of the Pastor. Show me a Pastor with only one pair of shoes, and I will show you 10+ in his congregation without any shoes at all.

So there is a way around it for me, Shimmie, even if you have decided that there isn't one for you. I will obey God. I will give to the poor, and the hungry, the naked and so on. I will let His Spirit direct me in my giving and in how I use my income. But I will not listen to one more person tell me that I am to give a specific quota of my money to God and then expect me to give it to the Pastor, whom when I last checked wasn't God. Jesus who said He and God are one always referred to the lowly as representing Him, never the church leaders or the guy in the pulpit. While holding a child in His arms He said, "Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me." (Mark 9:36-37). He said that when the Son of Man comes the King will say, "I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me" referring to the sick, the hungry, the thirsty, the naked, the stranger... (Matthew 25:31-46). And I will not limit my God to just 10%. I will give Him whatever I can because it is from Him that I get all things.

Nonie, BEAUTIFULLY SAID!!!

 

[miss cosmic]

i havent read all the posts yet (on the 3rd page) but i just wanted to share what i believe.

1.if you believe that a pastor is teaching you godly truth and you willingly sit under his teaching and anointing, then you need to give to that church first, and then to whatever charities and families you feel led to give. if you sit under a pastors anointing and yet refuse to trust him with your money then why are you sitting under his anointing in the first place? move churches and find a church where you can be 100% committed to the work that is being done. dont give because the pastor told you to, give because of the kingdom work that is being done that you want to see growing.

2. when you choose a church, choose one that is transparent in its handling of money (after determining that is a bible-believing church of course). God does not call us to be stupid, so if your pastor tells you that how the church spends the money is not your concern, you need to be worried and seek God and his will regarding you serving and being taught by that pastor. the church that i go to shares the church's financials with the church at large every quarter, so that there is transparency.

 

[maxineshaw]

I was drawn to this thread for the sake of it's original topic, so forgive me for breaking the flow of the current conversation. Having added that disclaimer, I came across this website called "Blue Letter Bible" and it contains a list of things not found in the bible. It's very interesting.

You can find the original link here. However, I have taken the liberty of posting the list provided by the website. Each item on the list has another link that offers an explanation of the given phrase.


Sayings
Moderation in all things.
Once saved, always saved.
Better to cast your seed....
Spare the rod, spoil the child.
To thine ownself be true.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
God helps those who help themselves.
Money is the root of all evil.
Cleanliness is next to godliness.
This too shall pass.
God works in mysterious ways.
The eye is the window to the soul.
The lion shall lay down with the lamb.
Pride comes before the fall.
Miscellaneous
The Three Wisemen
The Sinner's Prayer
Wedding Vows
The Seven Deadly Sins

To view the explanations, you can click on the given link above.

Now, I haven't read all of this thread. It's 2:30 in the morning, and I can't take too many words. From what I've skimmed, I do have a few things to add....

:Rose: I know it's difficult to grasp, even to accept much less understand about the measure of tithing [gross vs net], however, God speaks plainly about the Gross of our increase when it comes to tithing; it's indeed the gross not the net


God makes it plain that it is the firstfruits of our increase that He is expecting from us. The firstfruits comes from the top [the gross], not the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th layer...it's from the top.

As for preachers who take advantage of God's tithe for their own personal misuse... folks have to select the ground into which they plant their seed into. Move onto another who is truly doing the work of God.

First of all, I know I'm way past a day late and a dollar short, but WELCOME BACK SHIMMIE!!!! I took a four month or so hiatus from LHCF, and I think you got back on here like the day after I stopped logging in. I so enjoy reading your posts.

But here is my commentary on this post:

I feel as if the portion of your posts which I've taken the liberty of bolding and putting in red absolutely deserved repeating. I am one of those people who has problems with certain churches. I do recognize that not everyone is corrupt, and there are people who are performing the work of God in earnest and truth.

However, when it concerns my money I have a huge issue with where it is going and how it is being spent. I think someone commented earlier in thread about having to give money to the church you go to as something that is not found in the bible. I can wholeheartedly testify to the truth of their statement.

I do not belong to a church...a physical one anyhow. A truer church is not the building, but the people. We (usually) just so happen to gather together in the physical house. Since I do not belong to a physical church and have not for many years, I used to struggle with what to do with my tithes.

I asked God if it was okay for me to send my tithes to the Gideon's. I explained that I felt uncomfortable sending my tithes to any church that I wasn't a member of, and I loved that I actually could see the work that the Gideon's performed. He let me know that it was perfectly fine for me to do as I desired (through the presence of His Holy Spirit, fyi ). So, since then I have sent my tithes to the Gideon's. The Gideon's were my "selected ground who truly do the work of God", and I am extremely happy about my decision as well as God's answer.


As to the nature of gross vs. net. Well....I usedto look at it as the first thing that I touch. I wrote "used to" because I was actually in the middle of typing something out and I started to question the logic of my statement. This was what I was originally going to post:

"Firstfruit" is the first thing that I touch. The first thing that I touch is net. When I get a paycheck, the first fruit of my labor is...

I actually stopped before the ellipsis because that's when something so obvious dawned on me. The first fruit is the gross. Caesar has simply already taken what is his and left us with what I think you (Shimmie) refered to as the 2nd layer (I can't remember what it was...I edited it out for the sake of space). For those of us who don't work under the table it's simply an automatic deduction. That doesn't lessen what we are commanded to give the Lord.

I realized that when I am given a gift...let's say $200 cash...I have always given God the full 10%. What makes the gross of my paycheck any different?

Although I may seem like I am fully convinced, I am not. I asked the Lord for clarity, but I am not fully up to whatever understanding that He wants me to have. I will pray more, (actually read this thread), and do some biblical research before I fully reassess my position.

^^^Thanks for that post. The Bible is sooo confusing to me. You really broke it down, answered some questions I had, and taught me something new.

If you are ever confused about the nature of the bible, I highly recommend asking God (or even the Holy Spirit directly as I do sometimes) for clarity.

I am absolutely by no means disregarding whatever revelation that you got from the person's post, but I am simply offering my experience. When I first starting reading the bible, the King James version specifically, I just could not understand it AT. ALL. However, I asked the Lord for discernment, and it was given to me. I don't even view it as me reading the KJV, but the Lord is reading it for me. I'm hooked on phonics, fo realz when it comes to the KJV

 

[maxineshaw]

Question: "What does the Bible say about Christian tithing?"

Answer: Many Christians struggle with the issue of tithing. In some churches tithing is over-emphasized. At the same time, many Christians refuse to submit to the biblical exhortations about making offerings to the Lord. Tithing/giving is intended to be a joy and a blessing. Sadly, that is sometimes not the case in the church today.

Tithing is an Old Testament concept. The tithe was a requirement of the law in which all Israelites were to give 10 percent of everything they earned and grew to the Tabernacle/Temple (Leviticus 27:30; Numbers 18:26; Deuteronomy 14:24; 2 Chronicles 31:5). In fact, the Old Testament Law required multiple tithes which would have pushed the total to around 23.3 percent, not the 10 percent which is generally considered the tithe amount today. Some understand the Old Testament tithe as a method of taxation to provide for the needs of the priests and Levites in the sacrificial system. The New Testament nowhere commands, or even recommends, that Christians submit to a legalistic tithe system. Paul states that believers should set aside a portion of their income in order to support the church (1 Corinthians 16:1-2).

The New Testament nowhere designates a percentage of income a person should set aside, but only says it is to be “in keeping with income” (1 Corinthians 16:2). Some in the Christian church have taken the 10 percent figure from the Old Testament tithe and applied it as a “recommended minimum” for Christians in their giving. The New Testament talks about the importance and benefits of giving. We are to give as we are able. Sometimes that means giving more than 10 percent; sometimes that may mean giving less. It all depends on the ability of the Christian and the needs of the church. Every Christian should diligently pray and seek God’s wisdom in the matter of participating in tithing and/or how much to give (James 1:5). Above all, all tithes and offerings should be given with pure motives and an attitude of worship to God and service to the body of Christ. “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7).

Source: What does the Bible say about Christian tithing?

 

[maxineshaw]

Not a single place in the whole Bible is money used in tithing. And the only place money is mentioned w/r/t tithing is in the part about selling your produce to save you having to lug a load but you do not tithe that money. Instead you buy more produce for tithing. And again, the tithing of which we reading is different from the tithing people speak of today. So what if we aren't farmers? Why can't we buy the produce and have a meal together with those without during our assemblies?

To quote the scripture:

Mark 12:41-44

41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much. 42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites,[j] which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundanc

 

[Ivonnovi]

Noah took 2 of each animal onto the Ark.
He in fact took 2 of each unclean animal and 10* of each clean animal. (*or 7, at this hour, I don't feel like looking the exact number up)

 

[Dellas]

Forgive and forget

 

[Guitarhero]

That Abraham was a pagan. In light of recent threads on the holidays and problem arising, I so wished to make a thread discussing this issue about christianity having so-called elements of paganism but I am going to wait. Gosh, if we don't know our faith now, what will happen if someone takes our scriptures and we can no further read and learn of those and the traditions handed down except for rote and set memory? At least the essence and tenets of the faith? We'll be in trouble.

Just Genesis: Was Abraham a Pagan?

Monday, December 21, 2009
Was Abraham a Pagan?
First, it is incorrect to apply the term “pagan” to Abraham since the term comes from ancient Rome. (I've written about the contribution of Biblical Anthropology in the determination of anachronisms here.)

Second, the Online Etymological Dictionary explains that "pagan," from classical Latin means "villager, rustic, civilian," from pagus "rural district," originally "district limited by markers," related to pangere "to fix, fasten." Pagan, like villain, boor, rustic, expresses a class hierarchy from a time when common country folk were regarded by the urban elite as being of low birth, having rude manners, and lacking urbanity and sophistication. This doesn't apply to Abraham who was of the ruling class, maintained his own army, and two households and probably his own priest.

What is meant by calling Abraham a pagan? In the religious sense the term referred to adherence to the old gods after the Christianization of Roman towns. So what is meant is this: Abraham was an idol worshiper. This is what Fr. Hart believes on the basis of little biblical and historical support. He writes: “Abram was a pagan, a worshiper of idols, until God revealed Himself to him, and revealed His purpose through him. The text is clear that he had, until then, worshiped his father's gods.”

The verse to which the Fr. Hart is referring is Joshua 24:2: “In olden times, your forefathers – Terah, father of Abraham and father of Nahor – lived beyond the Euphrates and worshiped other gods.”

Nothing is said here of Abraham worshiping other gods. Further the implication is that Terah, whose ancestors came from Africa and Canaan, fell into worshiping contrary to his fathers’ tradition while living “beyond the Euphrates.” This is historically accurate since Abraham's Horite ancestors never worshiped the moon god, Sin, as was done in Ur and Haran.

Further, the Joshua passage must be understood in the context of the Deuteronomistic History, which begins in Deuteronomy and ends in II Kings. These books share a common concern with idolatry and place the covenant at Shechem at precisely the location where God appeared to Abraham in 3 Persons (Gen. 18).
Posted by Alice C. Linsley at 2:44 AM
Labels: Abraham

 

[Crown]

Originally Posted by Nonie
Not a single place in the whole Bible is money used in tithing. And the only place money is mentioned w/r/t tithing is in the part about selling your produce to save you having to lug a load but you do not tithe that money. Instead you buy more produce for tithing. And again, the tithing of which we reading is different from the tithing people speak of today. So what if we aren't farmers? Why can't we buy the produce and have a meal together with those without during our assemblies?

To quote the scripture:

Mark 12:41-44

41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much. 42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites,[j] which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundanc

Quoting the scripture :
Mark 12.44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

It was giving (she gave all), not tithing (10%).

 

[Guitarhero]

You've presented them as 'takers' only [provided that they receive 'food' as their pay and not money]. With all of the scripture you've shared, you've come forth with the appearance of condemnation for 'all' Pastors who receive the tithes of money to their Churches.

I truly agree with this and remember some pastors who held full-time jobs outside their pastorship. They looked so tired because these people are on-call all day, all night...right after work, sometimes breaking into their workday, morning, noon, and all weekend long for 365 days of the year. One of them from undergrad wasn't even married and I often wondered if it were due to all of his responsibilities. Hopefully, they've been growing in congregation to provide for him because he's an awesome person and fully dedicated. Most do not get rich off a minister's salary and barely break even, especially when they have a wife and kids.

 

[maxineshaw]

Quoting the scripture :
Mark 12.44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

It was giving (she gave all), not tithing (10%).

Which she did with money.

I think you aren't using the word "given" in the literal sense that it means. When I pay my tithes, I am giving a tenth of my income to the Gideons. To give is to cause to have.

The bible does not distinguish her reasoning, and I don't feel it would matter anyway. If she gave all she had, wouldn't that cover the specific 10% as well?

 

[Crown]

Which she did with money.

I think you aren't using the word "given" in the literal sense that it means. When I pay my tithes, I am giving a tenth of my income to the Gideons. To give is to cause to have.

The bible does not distinguish her reasoning, and I don't feel it would matter anyway. If she gave all she had, wouldn't that cover the specific 10% as well?

No! I don’t think so.

It’s not about her reasoning, it’s about what she did : she gave.

You can choose to interchange the 2 words if you want (I did it), but it’s not the same thing.

If she gave all, she was not tithing, she was giving.

Tithing is a specific term, meaning a tenth (10%), and it’s not really about money (Nonie explained it very well in this thread).

Giving is more general, and it’s about money, goods, time, talent…

I am not arguing with you, but you put Mark 12:44 as example to prove Nonie was wrong. This quote is about giving not tithing.

[FONT=&quot]Blessings![/FONT]

 

[maxineshaw]

No! I don’t think so.

It’s not about her reasoning, it’s about what she did : she gave.

You can choose to interchange the 2 words if you want (I did it), but it’s not the same thing.

If she gave all, she was not tithing, she was giving.

Tithing is a specific term, meaning a tenth (10%), and it’s not really about money (Nonie explained it very well in this thread).

Giving is more general, and it’s about money, goods, time, talent…

I am not arguing with you, but you put Mark 12:44 as example to prove Nonie was wrong. This quote is about giving not tithing.

[FONT=&quot]Blessings![/FONT]

She made an emphatic statement about something in God's holy word (paying tithes with money) that I don't believe is true. That is why I singled out that one line. Either it's in the bible, or it isn't. I am talking about the fact that money existed and was used as a means to pay tithes. BTW, when I use the word reasoning, I am referring to the "give vs. tithe". If she is commanded to tithe and chooses to give all she has, she is in effect paying her tithes as well and with money. "Giving" all that she has does not absolve her of God's commandment. How can she still tithe if she doesn't have anything to do it with? She's already paid it. And with cash. Which was my only point on the matter.

But yeah, agree to disagree.

Abased minds continue.