Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and Relationship

[nathansgirl1908]

Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU

Unity in Christian belief...NOT in what I believe, but in God's truth. But I know that is unrealistic and impossible according to YOU.

There is unity to a certain extent with the most basic truth: that He died to save us. Beyond that, there are varying viewpoints. But I agree with the person who said you are trying hard to justify your sin. I don't know what you have done, but if you repented and stopped, then you need to let go. The enemy wants us to feel condemnation in order to cause a rift between us and God.

I am NOT trying to get people to believe "continuing to sin doesn't make you a saved Christian". I was just trying to see if anyone can see where I was coming from with that concept.

Well, that is certainly what it seems like to me this time and the times you asked this question before.

Like Volver_Alma_Gitana said: "It's not correcting and swaying another to believe any side, it's reaffirming what one has been taught and follow." That's how it's going to help ME. I want to see how other Christian's thought processes are when it comes to sin if we apparently can't stop sinning 'til we die.

And what makes you think haering about someone else's walk is going to help YOU? You are a lazy Christian who wants to be told what to do. You need to find the answers for yourself from HIM. How many times do epople have to tell you this for you to get it?

And no, no one has personally expressed an answer for doing the same sin more than once. That is a new question I asked in this particular thread. Thanks for answering it.

You've talked about this topic before.

And no one in that 'atheist' thread has told me that they want others to feel the way they do, at least that's not what I got out of the 'atheist' thread. I can just relate to some of the experiences expressed in that 'atheist' thread. I am just being real with my thoughts and feelings in the Christian forum and the Atheist/Free-Thinker thread. I'm not ashamed of how I feel so I'm going to express it either here or there.

The title of one thread is "rise of Heretics/atheists" or something along those lines. The title alone indicates the mindset. And yes, there are some atheists on here who HAVE made it clear that they want others to come over to the dark side. And by sharing your thoughts with them, they are going to encourage you in a negative vein. How would you expect to get encouragement or advice on a relationship with God when you are talking to people who refuse to believe in Him or acknowledge Him? Does that even sound logical?

You act as if you have everything together and have this truth that all Christians know and believe. Can you honestly say that everything is as clear as clean water with the Christian faith to you?

I'm not acting as if I have everything together. I'm just a regular Christian who recognizes that sin is going to happen and that our job is to repent, learn, and continue in our walk. Truly walking with God is a struggle. I have had very low points of anger and frustration with God, but I never once thought that this "God thing" didn't make sense. And I never once thought that because I have sinned more than once that my salvation was destroyed forever. Although I'm trying not to be, I'm finding myself annoyed by your threads along the same theme. It doesn't matter what the topic is, if someone keeps asking the same questions over and over, and they have been given resources to help, after a time it gets wearisome. And you realize that the person isn't really listening. They don't really WANT help. I'm starting to think you don't WANT help. You just want someone to tell you what to do.

 

[Poohbear]

Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU

There is unity to a certain extent with the most basic truth: that He died to save us. Beyond that, there are varying viewpoints. But I agree with the person who said you are trying hard to justify your sin. I don't know what you have done, but if you repented and stopped, then you need to let go. The enemy wants us to feel condemnation in order to cause a rift between us and God.



Well, that is certainly what it seems like to me this time and the times you asked this question before.


And what makes you think haering about someone else's walk is going to help YOU? You are a lazy Christian who wants to be told what to do. You need to find the answers for yourself from HIM. How many times do epople have to tell you this for you to get it?




You've talked about this topic before.




The title of one thread is "rise of Heretics/atheists" or something along those lines. The title alone indicates the mindset. And yes, there are some atheists on here who HAVE made it clear that they want others to come over to the dark side. And by sharing your thoughts with them, they are going to encourage you in a negative vein. How would you expect to get encouragement or advice on a relationship with God when you are talking to people who refuse to believe in Him or acknowledge Him? Does that even sound logical?



I'm not acting as if I have everything together. I'm just a regular Christian who recognizes that sin is going to happen and that our job is to repent, learn, and continue in our walk. Truly walking with God is a struggle. I have had very low points of anger and frustration with God, but I never once thought that this "God thing" didn't make sense. And I never once thought that because I have sinned more than once that my salvation was destroyed forever. Although I'm trying not to be, I'm finding myself annoyed by your threads along the same theme. It doesn't matter what the topic is, if someone keeps asking the same questions over and over, and they have been given resources to help, after a time it gets wearisome. And you realize that the person isn't really listening. They don't really WANT help. I'm starting to think you don't WANT help. You just want someone to tell you what to do.

I'm a lazy Christian? Good one!

How in the world am I justifying sin when I'm speaking against it? And even asking questions toward being against sin? And YOU as a truly converted saved and sanctified Christian have no answers for your sin except "God is going to forgive me". Get out of here with that crap!

And there MUST be a reason YOU are visiting that Atheist thread too... you're not fooling anyone. YOU apparently been up in it more than me to see that someone wants people to come over to the dark side. I missed that post.

The atheist aren't encouraging me to do NOTHING against my will. I have a mind of my own and can think for myself. I just simply read and post.

YOU haven't offered any other help like the others in this thread. You haven't even shared one verse or scripture in the Bible, yet, you possess all the truth there is to know about God, Jesus, and the Bible.

If you don't care for the questions I asked, then simply ignore them. I'm going to do what I want in order to get my mind and heart right on this subject. This faith issue is something very serious to me and has had a big influence on my life. Getting others point of view sheds light to a lot of things for me whether I agree, disagree, or neutral. It helps me get a bigger picture and better perspective of the world we live in.

 

[LovingLady]

Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU

My purpose is to this... I wish there was some type of unity on this but maybe that's being overly optimistic...

I also feel like ALL sin is the same... habitually done against God. People do sins because they want to. I just don't see any other way around it. I want to know how can a sin be non-habitual, unintentional? If you have it all together, how come you can't answer that question? Just telling me "you ask the same question SEVERAL times" doesn't help at all. Have you done a sin more than once as a truly converted Christian? If so, how do you feel about that in relation to your salvation?

A sin is unintentional if you don't know that what your doing is a sin. How could someone not know they are sinning? If they haven't been taught that what they are doing is a sin.

PoohBear, you're going round in circles! Just focus on seeking God's face. Period. Leave the issue of sin alone for now. The sin I spoke about earlier was fornication. This should not deter you from really seeking God IF you want to. This particular sin is like a spirit and you can't stop it in your own strength. Seek God and ask Him to help you. Stop asking people these questions but ask God. You can't intellectualize the things of God. When you begin to do that, you miss the point.

Thank you.

Whenever I've asked God a question, I do not get an audible or visual answer. The only possible answer I get is from the Bible. In regards to the sin of fornication, all I see in the Bible is that it says a fornicator cannot inherit the kingdom of God. I feel like that's for anyone who considers themselves a Christian or not. I do not see any verse that says, "if you believe in Jesus and fornicate, you still get to go to Heaven." And I don't see anything that says, "Jesus' death on the cross forgave past, present, and future sins." I just think that a Christian that slips up and fornicates either habitually or non-habitually is not truly saved.

God is not going to give you a replay automatically. It doesn't work that way. He will revel the answer to you when the time is right.

The Amplified Bible added the word [habitual sin] in that verse. The unaltered King James Version simple says "sin". I don't see how adding [habitual sin] in that verse makes it say anything about so-called "non-habitual" sin.

In other words, if you are a converted Christian of holiness and you slip up and sin, that's habitual sin. It's not a mistake. A mistake is like if you get an answer incorrect on a test. A habit is like if you can't stop biting your nails or playing in your hair.

I have been taught about how our sinful nature is at war with our spiritual nature. That Romans 7 verse about Paul has been thrown at me alot too. But this is another question that I've probably asked in a different way.... Can the Holy Spirit really help Christians stop sinning if the Christian's flesh cannot stop sinning? It just sounds miserable to me. It makes me feel like sin is a crutch to keep religion in power.

If you are celibate for five years and you have premarital sex (once) afterward, that is a mistake not habitual sin. A habit is something that you are continually doing.

Question 2. Learn to wait on the Lord for a response. I get the feeling you're trying hard to justify your sin. The greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind. If you really love Him, you will love the things He loves and hate the things He hates. The Holy spirit is there to help us. Falling in love takes time ... it's a process. It takes you knowing God and appreciating Him. Pooh Bear, again seek God's face and leave the issue of sin alone for now, it is distracting you from the things that really matter. I will be praying for you

Real Christianity is a relationship

Thank you.

How in the world am I justifying sin when I'm speaking against it?

In a previous post you told me that you were an adult and you asked me why should you have to obey everything your fathers says. To me it seems like you are trying to find a way not obey him, if God says to honor our mother and father then we have to do it regardless of our age.

And there MUST be a reason YOU are visiting that Atheist thread too... you're not fooling anyone. YOU apparently been up in it more than me to see that someone wants people to come over to the dark side. I missed that post.

The atheist aren't encouraging me to do NOTHING against my will. I have a mind of my own and can think for myself. I just simply read and post.

God asks us to love his people, not to socialize with everyone.

 

[sidney]

The Amplified Bible added the word [habitual sin] in that verse. The unaltered King James Version simple says "sin". I don't see how adding [habitual sin] in that verse makes it say anything about so-called "non-habitual" sin.

In other words, if you are a converted Christian of holiness and you slip up and sin, that's habitual sin. It's not a mistake. A mistake is like if you get an answer incorrect on a test. A habit is like if you can't stop biting your nails or playing in your hair.

I have been taught about how our sinful nature is at war with our spiritual nature. That Romans 7 verse about Paul has been thrown at me alot too. But this is another question that I've probably asked in a different way.... Can the Holy Spirit really help Christians stop sinning if the Christian's flesh cannot stop sinning? It just sounds miserable to me. It makes me feel like sin is a crutch to keep religion in power.

I think habitual sin is a pattern of behaviors, much like the hypothetical situation you posted. If I decide to get angry at someone tommorrow, it's not a habit for me to do that. It's not a part of my character. It was a reaction because I did not control my response.

My question is, do you feel that the numerous scriptures posted that say "no person is without sin" are irrelevant? For example, many people have posted the scipture that says, "If anyone says he is without sin, he is a liar and the truth is not in him." How do you feel about that scripture? Also Paul said that he sometimes "did things he did not desire to do." According to your logic, Paul was not saved. Despite writing most of the new testament do you believe he was also not a true christian because he slipped up once in a while in non-habitual sin? I think continual sin and habitual sin are the same thing in the Romans 7 verse.

Also, I think there is a lot of disbelief on your part Poohbear and I don't think any of the answers have satisfied you. It's interesting that nathangirl brings up the atheist thread, because I have discussed the bible with atheists and they always feel unsatisfied with my responses, even after long and drawn out discussions. They are still at square one. Not saying that you are an atheiest, but there you have a lot of issues with the fundamental issues regarding Jesus and salvation. If I were you I would focus on whether or not I believed. If you can fully accept Christ you will accept his word and you will be able to discern the truth in the scriptures a little better.

 

[Poohbear]

Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU

A sin is unintentional if you don't know that what your doing is a sin. How could someone not know they are sinning? If they haven't been taught that what they are doing is a sin.

God is not going to give you a replay automatically. It doesn't work that way. He will revel the answer to you when the time is right.

If you are celibate for five years and you have premarital sex (once) afterward, that is a mistake not habitual sin. A habit is something that you are continually doing.

In a previous post you told me that you were an adult and you asked me why should you have to obey everything your fathers says. To me it seems like you are trying to find a way not obey him, if God says to honor our mother and father then we have to do it regardless of our age.

God asks us to love his people, not to socialize with everyone.

Good explanation on unintentional sin.

In the previous post, I was asking is it a sin if I tell my dad I can't do something he wants me to do? For example, let's say he wants me to do something when I already have made plans. Do I cancel my plans to do what he says? What does it mean to obey your parents as an adult who no longer lives with your parents? It was a genuine question, not to justify my sin. I really want to know the answer. Just like recently, he wants me to continue to teach the children at church and I no longer want to because of what's going on with how I feel about my faith. Is that a sin to not do what he wants? Do I let my dad control my life until he dies? What happens if I get married or something? Am I still under my father's rule?

I do love his people. Socializing is a part of showing love. When you say 'everyone', are you talking about non-believers? If so, where does God say "not to socialize with everyone?" I know the bible says not to marry unequal yoke and the bible says a companion of fools suffers harm, but I'm not doing none of that with anyone here on LHCF. I just read and comment in random threads like everyone else here. The bible also says to love everyone, even your enemies, but I don't see anyone here as an enemy whether I disagree with them or not. But I guess it looks like I shouldn't be on the LHCF alotgether since I don't keep track of whose a believer and whose not on here. erplexed

 

[nathansgirl1908]

Poohbear while I recognize that misery loves company, don't put me in your category. First of all the title of that thread is self explanatory. One doesn't have to read it to know what's up. Second, many of th atheist I am referring to have made comments in OTHER threads demonstrating their desire to get others to join them in their foolishness


And no, I have not quoted scripture thus far. There is no point. You have a Bible. Read it. It doesn't do any good to post scriptures you aren't paying attention to. And how do I know you aren't paying attention? Because some scriptures posted have provided the answers to some of your questions, yet you are still whining.

Furthermore if you have a mind of your own then you would not be having these issues. You are double-minded resulting in instability.

You will only get the peace you need and desire when you seek Him. I've said that numerous times yet you claim I'm not "helping.". The fact that you don't see that as helping tells me everything I need to know.


Deuces.

 

[Jynlnd13]

Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU

And what makes you think haering about someone else's walk is going to help YOU? You are a lazy Christian who wants to be told what to do. You need to find the answers for yourself from HIM. How many times do epople have to tell you this for you to get it?




I'm not acting as if I have everything together. I'm just a regular Christian who recognizes that sin is going to happen and that our job is to repent, learn, and continue in our walk. Truly walking with God is a struggle. I have had very low points of anger and frustration with God, but I never once thought that this "God thing" didn't make sense. And I never once thought that because I have sinned more than once that my salvation was destroyed forever. Although I'm trying not to be, I'm finding myself annoyed by your threads along the same theme. It doesn't matter what the topic is, if someone keeps asking the same questions over and over, and they have been given resources to help, after a time it gets wearisome. And you realize that the person isn't really listening. They don't really WANT help. I'm starting to think you don't WANT help. You just want someone to tell you what to do.

Wow...calling someone a lazy Christian is NOT helping in anyway. Hearing about someone's walk WILL help, how do you think people who are confused about God come to him? They seek him and they seek others who are in Christ for THEIR testimony about their walk with Christ, I'm sorry but you are being over the top calling her a lazy Christian. She is struggling right now with what she believes and now is not the time to attack and be negative, it's to be understanding and helpful.

Like I said before, everyone is different. Everyones relationship with God is different. Maybe Poohbear is playing hardball because she really wants what people are saying to be concrete. Like I said this is a struggle for her, she started this thread to hear what others had to say about it. Clearly she wantes help, because she has reached out and asked. What she decides to do it her choice. But degrading is not the answer, or Christ like.

 

[Poohbear]

I think habitual sin is a pattern of behaviors, much like the hypothetical situation you posted. If I decide to get angry at someone tommorrow, it's not a habit for me to do that. It's not a part of my character. It was a reaction because I did not control my response.

My question is, do you feel that the numerous scriptures posted that say "no person is without sin" are irrelevant? For example, many people have posted the scipture that says, "If anyone says he is without sin, he is a liar and the truth is not in him." How do you feel about that scripture? Also Paul said that he sometimes "did things he did not desire to do." According to your logic, Paul was not saved. Despite writing most of the new testament do you believe he was also not a true christian because he slipped up once in a while in non-habitual sin? I think continual sin and habitual sin are the same thing in the Romans 7 verse.

Also, I think there is a lot of disbelief on your part Poohbear and I don't think any of the answers have satisfied you. It's interesting that nathangirl brings up the atheist thread, because I have discussed the bible with atheists and they always feel unsatisfied with my responses, even after long and drawn out discussions. They are still at square one. Not saying that you are an atheiest, but there you have a lot of issues with the fundamental issues regarding Jesus and salvation. If I were you I would focus on whether or not I believed. If you can fully accept Christ you will accept his word and you will be able to discern the truth in the scriptures a little better.

This is what I think of the bolded scripture... I feel like it's true for people who actually do commit sin and then go around saying they are without sin. I feel like this scripture doesn't apply to people who say they don't sin when they really do not sin. Does that make sense?

And about Paul, I feel like he was talking about when he was a sinner. He mentioned how he was the chief of sinners and he did things he didn't want to do, and didn't do things he should do.

Thanks for your honesty, but maybe I am an atheist right now based on what I've been asking, however, it has nothing to do with the atheist thread. I've been having these feelings WAY BEFORE that thread was even created. I ask these questions to get more than one answer from different people to see where different people are coming from. But I guess I'll go discern the truth on my own. Thanks for your posts. I do appreciate them.

 

[Poohbear]

Poohbear while I recognize that misery loves company, don't put me in your category. First of all the title of that thread is self explanatory. One doesn't have to read it to know what's up. Second, many of th atheist I am referring to have made comments in OTHER threads demonstrating their desire to get others to join them in their foolishness


And no, I have not quoted scripture thus far. There is no point. You have a Bible. Read it. It doesn't do any good to post scriptures you aren't paying attention to. And how do I know you aren't paying attention? Because some scriptures posted have provided the answers to some of your questions, yet you are still whining.

Furthermore if you have a mind of your own then you would not be having these issues. You are double-minded resulting in instability.

You will only get the peace you need and desire when you seek Him. I've said that numerous times yet you claim I'm not "helping.". The fact that you don't see that as helping tells me everything I need to know.


Deuces.

"Seek Him"...

That's the recurring theme...

That's what most Christians say but can't explain what that means... Gotta love them Christian cliches' and common phrases...

Like I said, looks like you've been up in them atheists thread more than me... I was not aware of what atheist say in other threads... shows how much of a Christian YOU are... muddling in the ponds with non-believers, "ouuuu, God's gonna punish you!

And I'm not putting you in the category of "misery loves company". If I'm this miserable person, apparently you do like misery with the way you have been posting...

Does it make yourself feel better now that you have called me a double-minded unstable lazy Christian? Do you think that makes me feel like I want to jump back on board with the truly saved and converted Christians like YOU? Plleeeaaasse...

If you saw what the title of thread, saw it was me who created it, and knew what it was going to be about... then why even chime in with YOUR whining and complaining about me? (and please don't answer that question, ha!)

Here's another cliche for ya while you hold up your deuces...

God bless you and keep you sister in Christ.

 

[Sharpened]

Ephesians 6:1-4 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise. That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth.

And, you fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Colossians 3:21 Fathers, provoke not your children, that they be not discouraged.

She is an adult now and is responsible for her relationship with Our Father. If her father is the cause of this strife of her heart, she needs a breather from him so she can sort this out with her true Father. Obey the Lord first, always!

To seek the Lord is to pray in private and honest humility for His presence, His answer to the questions we have. The book of Psalms is full of prayers like this.

 

[Guitarhero]

Actually, that's a very profound question...what does it mean to follow Christ? I'm going to answer this for myself. It's God's revelation to man first through the 10 Commandments and later through the Messiah, Jesus, the completeness. It's measuring myself against God's revelation daily and correcting where I need to. It's coming back after failures. It's the Nicene Creed. It's concrete and recited weekly (if not daily). And seriously, this is a revelation in and of itself as to what it is for me...simply following the NC and the 10 Commandments through Jesus the Messiah. I've never put it so succinctly before, never had to. And your question is truly profound because it causes each of us to do just that...what does it truly mean, step-by-step?

I realize that there are many other personal explanations but for me, it's devoid of any kind of emotionalism at all...it's what I believe through those aforementioned. I'm rather surprised, actually, that I've condensed it thusly.


http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm
http://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-nicene-creed.html

 

[sidney]

This is what I think of the bolded scripture... I feel like it's true for people who actually do commit sin and then go around saying they are without sin. I feel like this scripture doesn't apply to people who say they don't sin when they really do not sin. Does that make sense?

And about Paul, I feel like he was talking about when he was a sinner. He mentioned how he was the chief of sinners and he did things he didn't want to do, and didn't do things he should do.

Thanks for your honesty, but maybe I am an atheist right now based on what I've been asking, however, it has nothing to do with the atheist thread. I've been having these feelings WAY BEFORE that thread was even created. I ask these questions to get more than one answer from different people to see where different people are coming from. But I guess I'll go discern the truth on my own. Thanks for your posts. I do appreciate them.

One thing I've learned to do when studying the bible is focus on the language that is used.

1. Notice, the verse in Romans 7 says says, "if ANYONE says he is without sin he is a liar." Anyone is all inclusive. It is absolutist language, so than means everyone including christians.

2. Another related verse: John 1:8
If we say we have no sin, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, he will forgive our sins, because we can trust God to do what is right. He will cleanse us from all the wrongs we have done. 1If we say we have not sinned, we make God a liar, and we do not accept God's teaching

Now look at the language again, he says "we"...who is this person saying we? John said, that. John is a christian and he admitted he is a sinner.

3. Further on the language tid bit, this is what Paul wrote. If you notice, it is in the present tense. The last verse he says it is the "sin living in him." Notice he did not say that it is the sin, that ONCE lived in him. He did not say, I USED to do what I didn't want to do. Paul was a straight up sinner (non-habitual of course).

“We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.”

I know you are familiar with the many of the other scriptures so here are further questions. If christians do not sin, why is his grace and mercy new every morning? We are perfect, so what do we need that for? Also, why would the bible call our righteous "as filthy rags?" Why would Paul tell the church people to confess their sins to one another, and pray for eachother? (James 5:16) And then Jesus himself the disciples how to pray.....why did the Lord's prayer include "Forgive us for our trespasses?"

I hope these answer your questions but I'm not sure how this will help you with the unbelief you are dealing with. Pray that God "help thou unbelief" Pray that he sends some people to encourage you in the faith. The fact that you are struggling with this, shows that deep down you really know the truth and you do not want to let go of God. Many atheists admit there is a process to disown the concept of Jesus and christianity. I think it's because it requires deliberate self-deception. Choose God. And if you aren't 100% convinced that he is, atleast be able to say you did everything you could to seek him. People keep telling you to "seek him" because seeking him means searching until you find him. Since you like Paul Washer I'm posting this. It may help you. It tells how he sought the Lord for himself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LgnbOMZ4Vw


P.S. About your dad....You are to ask God what he wants you to do with your life. Your father, is not your heavily father. Consider what your parents say and try to listen and obey their wisdom, but you are an adult. You have to find God for yourself and listen to what ministry God wants to do. As you can not hear from God right now, I am certain that your dad is not telling you anything that will harm you.

 

[Guitarhero]

Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU

. Can you honestly say that everything is as clear as clean water with the Christian faith to you?

I often feel the same way about explanation of things especially when simplistic answers are given. That's when I was given the blessing of sources who studied christian and Jewish mysticism, relating these mundane things in the flesh to the realities of the spirit and beyond. There are various levels of understanding of anything in scripture.

 

[Guitarhero]

She is an adult now and is responsible for her relationship with Our Father. If her father is the cause of this strife of her heart, she needs a breather from him so she can sort this out with her true Father. Obey the Lord first, always!

To seek the Lord is to pray in private and honest humility for His presence, His answer to the questions we have. The book of Psalms is full of prayers like this.

.......AMEIN!!!!

 

[Poohbear]

One thing I've learned to do when studying the bible is focus on the language that is used.

1. Notice, the verse in Romans 7 says says, "if ANYONE says he is without sin he is a liar." Anyone is all inclusive. It is absolutist language, so than means everyone including christians.

2. Another related verse: John 1:8
If we say we have no sin, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, he will forgive our sins, because we can trust God to do what is right. He will cleanse us from all the wrongs we have done. 1If we say we have not sinned, we make God a liar, and we do not accept God's teaching

Now look at the language again, he says "we"...who is this person saying we? John said, that. John is a christian and he admitted he is a sinner.

3. Further on the language tid bit, this is what Paul wrote. If you notice, it is in the present tense. The last verse he says it is the "sin living in him." Notice he did not say that it is the sin, that ONCE lived in him. He did not say, I USED to do what I didn't want to do. Paul was a straight up sinner (non-habitual of course).

“We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.”

I know you are familiar with the many of the other scriptures so here are further questions. If christians do not sin, why is his grace and mercy new every morning? We are perfect, so what do we need that for? Also, why would the bible call our righteous "as filthy rags?" Why would Paul tell the church people to confess their sins to one another, and pray for eachother? (James 5:16) And then Jesus himself the disciples how to pray.....why did the Lord's prayer include "Forgive us for our trespasses?"

I hope these answer your questions but I'm not sure how this will help you with the unbelief you are dealing with. Pray that God "help thou unbelief" Pray that he sends some people to encourage you in the faith. The fact that you are struggling with this, shows that deep down you really know the truth and you do not want to let go of God. Many atheists admit there is a process to disown the concept of Jesus and christianity. I think it's because it requires deliberate self-deception. Choose God. And if you aren't 100% convinced that he is, atleast be able to say you did everything you could to seek him. People keep telling you to "seek him" because seeking him means searching until you find him. Since you like Paul Washer I'm posting this. It may help you. It tells how he sought the Lord for himself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LgnbOMZ4Vw


P.S. About your dad....You are to ask God what he wants you to do with your life. Your father, is not your heavily father. Consider what your parents say and try to listen and obey their wisdom, but you are an adult. You have to find God for yourself and listen to what ministry God wants to do. As you can not hear from God right now, I am certain that your dad is not telling you anything that will harm you.

Thanks sidney but no where in Romans 7 says "if ANYONE says he is without sin he is a liar."

Just the verse in 1 John 1:8,10 says this but uses "if we" not "if anyone"...but I guess it's the same since "we" includes onself and others while "anyone" includes any person at all.

But yeah, Paul did speak in present tense. However, he was NOT condoning sin nor saying that it's okay to do things you don't want to do.

"The fact that you are struggling with this, shows that deep down you really know the truth and you do not want to let go of God."

Yes. I used to be that Christian that had no doubt in my mind about God, Jesus, and the bible. As I got older and experienced more things in life, I have changed, especially after my father became a pastor back in 2005. Maybe another spirit or soul has come over me at different turning points in my life. I have gone through a lot of changes over the past few years and have finally gotten into a more stable condition career-wise and just having my own place and own things now. I'm a relatively good person, but my faith has taken a downward spiral from the questions I have about sin, repentance, and salvation... all after meeting this lady who said she and her husband and most people at her church do not sin anymore.

 

[aribell]

Admittedly, I've only read the last page or so of this thread, but thought I'd go see what the op actually asked. Answers/thoughts in purple.

For several years, I've attended church every Sunday and taught children the Bible. That's a great thing. It means that you have a firm foundation that you can return to. It may be confusing now, but know that you do already know the answers. However, I have been going through periods of unbelief and diminishing faith. I am confused about what to believe anymore. If you want to believe, believe what God's word says. Being confused about what God's word means is different than being confused about whether you believe it. This is why James says that God will give wisdom to those who need it, because we don't always understand. But the person seeking understanding must first believe His word. Think about it, if you're not sure whether someone is lying to you or not, it won't matter what answer comes out of their mouth...you're going to be unsure of whether they're speaking the truth. Question for thought: Regarding the Bible, is it that you don't understand what it says, or you don't believe that it's trustworthy? The more and more I taught, the less and less sense the Bible made to me. Actually, it's a good thing to recognize that you don't really understand what the Bible is saying and how it all can be true. What matters is how you deal with it. It's like I have the knowledge, but slowly lost faith. I feel like good and bad things happen out of mere coincidence, not because of God's mighty power.

During church services, I have never really felt the spirit or felt like I wanted to jump up and down and clap and sing aloud like a lot of people I see in different churches. There are many denominations around the world in which jumping up and down and clapping would be considered out of order in church, or odd at least. Try not to allow your experience in one small corner of Christendom to define the whole of it. Then the pastor or a minister will try to say things in the pulpit like "If you don't get up and praise God, something's wrong with you" and other statements along that line. Such a pastor is being emotionally manipulative. Am I lacking the Spirit if I'm mainly quiet during service? If you want to know whether the Spirit is present in your life, consider whether you bear the fruit of the Spirit as defined in Galatians: love, joy, peace, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, patience, self-control. The Bible tells us how the Spirit works and moves in our lives, and I'm pretty sure that jumping up and down was never given as the definition of a Spirit-filled Christian...Also, excessive emphasis on emotionalism in worship can be very deceiving.

But anyway, here are the main questions I have been wondering....

How do you know who you are in Christ? Question for you: Does God keep His promises?

How do you know you believe in Christ? Question for you: Did Jesus die on the Cross for your sins?

How do you know that you have a relationship with God? Eh..."relationship with God" language is tricky. The question is, "In His word, who does God say He is to you?"

How do you know that Christ really died on the cross for the punishment of our sins?

If you read what God's word says, it's a fact. If your question is about historical fact, Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ is an easy read.


Why is Christ dying on the cross so significant for our lives today? What is the difference between today and 2000 years ago? Would we really be dying left and right when we sin against God if Jesus had not died? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you thinking about the difference between God's wrath shown in the Old Testament and today? There are stories of God pouring out judgment at specific points in time in the Old Testament, but those were specific events, not how everyone at every point in time experienced God. So, the Lord destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah, but certainly that city was not the only one that was unrighteous...yet we have no record of God destroying them. The stories we have in the Bible reflect specific instances in which God made Himself specially known to mankind--through a chosen people, through chosen leaders, etc. God is still present and acting today, but it was never the case that God always immediately judged sin. Most were not judged immediately. And we know this also because in the Psalms, David complains about wicked men who get away with their evil deeds. And Proverbs tells us not to envy wicked men, and Ecclesiasties also complains that righteous men may not be rewarded, but fools reign as kings.

It's so easy to say you "must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior", but how do you know that you believe in your heart? Hmm...it seems that you're asking about assurance. An excellent theologian writes about this question which plagues Christians' hearts, and says:

—
A favorite theme of Luther's, who frequently uses Paul's saying, "Let God
be true and every man a liar," (Romans 3:4) as an admonition to put faith in no word but God's. (Of course the logic of Luther's faith falls apart if Christ is not God).

The part about "every man a liar" includes me. I am to put no faith in my own words, not even in my confession of faith... In this sense Luther makes Christian faith profoundly unreflective: faith does not include knowing one has faith. ...

Faith does not rely on itself but only on the promise of Christ.

Faith is vital, but you do not have to have assurance that you believe to have faith. Yes, it's a subtle difference. Faith is a constant looking at Christ, not a constant looking at oneself. A lot of people convince themselves that they believe, and all they're looking at are their own thoughts and feelings. Our thoughts and feelings deceive, even when they are positive. God does not. Remember, let God be true and every man a liar.

To believe Christ's word is to be uninterested in the fact that I believe but captivated by what Christ has to say to
me. Even apart from its character as word of address, the Gospel is good news for me because it is Christ's story, not mine. To say it is not my story means, not that it has nothing to do with me,
but that it is about what Christ does for me rather than what I do for Christ. The Law tells me what to do; the Gospel tells me what Christ does. So "Christ died for you" is a way of stating the Gospel, whereas "I believe in Christ" is not. I appear in Christ's story as object, not subject not
the doer but the one on the receiving end of the good things Christ has done. Hence when the Gospel is properly preached the pronoun that refers to me is the object rather than the subject of
active verbs. If the Gospel alone is the proper object of faith, then the fact that I am the object of Christ's love and redemption is part of the content of faith, whereas an awareness that I believe is not.

A little upthread I wrote about what I perceived to be God's words to me: "You were bought at a price and belong to me." At that point in time, did I believe? Who could say? I had told the Lord explicitly that I was not going to follow Him anymore. But the point wasn't what I was thinking or feeling about God at the moment. It was wholly about what He said about me. The point is, "What does God's word say?" It says, Poohbear, that Christ died for your sins. That is the truth of the matter...and its truth doesn't change depending on you. That's great news!

 

[aribell]

It's so easy to say you must have a relationship with God. I don't think the Bible ever says "You must have a relationship with God." Everyone is in some kind of relation to God. But which is it? Disciple? As in, "I am a follower of Christ." Rebel? As in, "He is in rebellion against God." Other? But how do you have a relationship with God when God is supposedly a spirit? You are also spiritual. Just praying and reading the Bible and living like Christ as much as possible? I know we use "relationship with God" a lot, and it's not the worst thing. But I think that we infuse our own thoughts about relationships into that phrase and it can lead us astray in our thinking. To us, being in a relationship with someone is about spending time with them, and usually it revolves around all the positive feelings we associate with feeling close to someone. The Spirit brings deep joy and other positive things into our lives, so I would not say that walking with God is drudgery. However, I'll ask this: When Jonah was in the belly of the whale, what was his 'relationship' with God? When Peter was denying Jesus in the Garden, what was his 'relationship' with God? If we keep our eyes on ourselves, our thoughts about ourselves, our feelings about ourselves and God, we'll think that He has abandoned us every time we mess up. We will only see ourselves, and be unable to see the God who is unchanging, and His unchanging word.

It's easy to say "all Scripture is God-breathed" or the inspired Word of God, but how do you know that for the fact WITHOUT reading 2 Timothy 3:16?

What in this world do we know "for a fact"? We believe that George Washington was the first president of the United States, and yet, do you know that "for a fact"? And what is that "fact" based on?

The Bible is an oral tradition, meaning that millenia ago, something happened in Israel, something major. And the word spread. And peope kept telling other people what happened. And people told other people, this is how to Christ works, this is how the Spirit moves. And 2000 years later, people are still bearing witness to the testimony that the first believers had. Why do I believe what Paul said? Because the truth of his words has always borne true in my life. He met Jesus and so did I. I continue to believe God's word, as it continues to be true.


Why should I accept the statement "Christians will never stop sinning" but yet, people say "not everyone who proclaims to be Christian isn't saved or going to heaven because of how they live"? How are they living that's so different than you who still commit sin?

Again, you are battling what other Christians are saying about God. Focus more on what God's word says for itself. The Bible says that not everyone who approaches the Lord at the judgment will enter His Kingdom, and it will be because He "never knew them." They were not His disciples. They did not follow Him. Think about it. You can set out on a course to climb a mountain, and still make mistakes along the way. But you are still following that course. You could also choose to completely ignore the course and do your own thing. The difference between Christians who sin and unbelievers is that Christians are following the path that Jesus laid out and others are walking wherever their own heart takes them.

It is setting one's heart to follow Christ which enables God to convict of sin. Everyone has a conscience, but not everyone experiences conviction of sin. If you are on God's course, then He will start convicting you of sin. But He never said that faith would make us instantaneously perfect.

Also, it's pointless to judge God's word based on other people's claims to be a Christian. Didn't Jesus say that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom? Well, we can't know whether someone professing to be a Christian actually is one or not. So judging the content of their lives won't necessarily tell you anything about how God operates. Only reading His word will.


Why aren't Christians more united? Sin. Why are there two sides to every fundamental issue of the Bible? (ie. women preachers, faith vs works for salvation, baptism, trinity, big sins vs little sins, calvinism vs arminianism, sinless perfection vs sinning Christians, and more? Do I have to choose sides?


There aren't two sides, there's only the truth. Whether you or I or anyone else has the answer, doesn't mean that God doesn't. You aren't responsible for figuring out all the mysteries of God's word. You're only responsible for step by step growing in faith and abiding why what is presented as true. Women preachers are not a fundamental issue, nor is calvinism v. arminianism, nor is mortal/venial sins. Those are denominational issues that have little to nothing to do with Christ's work for you on the Cross.

Can I go to Hell for not tithing 10% of my GROSS income?

Those who end up in hell are those who reject Christ as Lord and Savior.

Can I go to Hell for not participating in ALL church ministries and not attending a physical church building EVERY Sunday to worship God?


Those who end up in hell are those who reject Christ as Lord and Savior. Not to be repetitive, but what does God's word say? Does it say that you have to participate in all church ministries? Doesn't Jesus tell you what He expects of you? Don't the epistles describe what a holy life looks like?

That's all the questions I have for now.


Poohbear, while I do believe that you know more answers than you realize, you seem to make a lot of assumptions about the faith that have more to do with bad church experiences than what God's word actually says. Perhaps finding a place to "re-learn" the faith in a healthy way would be beneficial to you. Any time that I did not directly answer the question, it is not because I"m trying to dodge your question, but rather because the question as stated doesn't have an answer.

 

[LovingLady]

Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU

Good explanation on unintentional sin.

In the previous post, I was asking is it a sin if I tell my dad I can't do something he wants me to do? For example, let's say he wants me to do something when I already have made plans. Do I cancel my plans to do what he says? What does it mean to obey your parents as an adult who no longer lives with your parents? It was a genuine question, not to justify my sin. I really want to know the answer. Just like recently, he wants me to continue to teach the children at church and I no longer want to because of what's going on with how I feel about my faith. Is that a sin to not do what he wants? Do I let my dad control my life until he dies? What happens if I get married or something? Am I still under my father's rule?

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am going to assume your dad doesn't know about how you feel. I want you to be very honest with your father. Tell him that you don't feel comfortable/you don't think it is right to teach the children at church because of where you are in your faith. I agree with you on this. Teaching children about God when you are not quite there yet is not fare to them.

When I mean obey, I am referring to doing something that they asked you to do. There are certain activities that you can not avoid attending (school, work, vacation, etc.). In cases like this I would ask the parent if I could do what they wanted before or after my event, and how much of an importance is it. I heard that this guy asked another Christian to help his mom out with something because he wasn't able to do it, that was sweet. Other events (going to the beach, hanging out, etc.) can be canceled.

I do love his people. Socializing is a part of showing love. When you say 'everyone', are you talking about non-believers? If so, where does God say "not to socialize with everyone?" I know the bible says not to marry unequal yoke and the bible says a companion of fools suffers harm, but I'm not doing none of that with anyone here on LHCF. I just read and comment in random threads like everyone else here. The bible also says to love everyone, even your enemies, but I don't see anyone here as an enemy whether I disagree with them or not. But I guess it looks like I shouldn't be on the LHCF alotgether since I don't keep track of whose a believer and whose not on here. erplexed

I am sorry that I wasn't clear about how I was defining socializing. Lets say that I am talking to someone after class. Her friend comes along (non-believer) and I am introduced to her. Now, all three of us are talking. Once the conversation gets inappropriate (cursing, sexually suggestive, etc.) I excuse myself. I run into the third girl a few days later and we talk for a short time. She asks me if I want to go to see a movie with her. My answer is no. Just like in a relationship, when you spend increasing amounts of time with a non-believer (or anyone for that matter) you start to mirror each others personality. More then likely the non-believer would pull you into sinful activities.

You don't have to leave .

 

[Poohbear]

It's so easy to say you "must confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior", but how do you know that you believe in your heart? Hmm...it seems that you're asking about assurance. An excellent theologian writes about this question which plagues Christians' hearts, and says:

A favorite theme of Luther's, who frequently uses Paul's saying, "Let God
be true and every man a liar," (Romans 3:4) as an admonition to put faith in no word but God's. (Of course the logic of Luther's faith falls apart if Christ is not God).

The part about "every man a liar" includes me. I am to put no faith in my own words, not even in my confession of faith... In this sense Luther makes Christian faith profoundly unreflective: faith does not include knowing one has faith. ...

Faith does not rely on itself but only on the promise of Christ.

Faith is vital, but you do not have to have assurance that you believe to have faith. Yes, it's a subtle difference. Faith is a constant looking at Christ, not a constant looking at oneself. A lot of people convince themselves that they believe, and all they're looking at are their own thoughts and feelings. Our thoughts and feelings deceive, even when they are positive. God does not. Remember, let God be true and every man a liar.

Oh wow!!! The part you said about Luther, Romans 3:4, and faith really open my eyes. It actually brought back memories about how I felt when I was younger. When I was younger, I did not try to find assurance of my faith. Now that I'm older, that's what I've been doing, trying to find assurance of my faith when I don't need to. I'm trying to find ways to convince myself to believe and I'm most definitely reflecting on my thoughts and feelings.

 

[MSee]

She is an adult now and is responsible for her relationship with Our Father. If her father is the cause of this strife of her heart, she needs a breather from him so she can sort this out with her true Father. Obey the Lord first, always!

To seek the Lord is to pray in private and honest humility for His presence, His answer to the questions we have. The book of Psalms is full of prayers like this.

When I read the opening questions my thought was someone in spiritual authority must have wounded Pooh terribly. Then I remembered the post about her dad. This may not be your reason but I have had friends who would now have nothing to do with God, Christ, or anything Christian because of their relationship with their Christian parents.

Pooh I may not be able to offer you answers although I have personally settled those issue in my heart. However, I think in some ways I may understand where you are coming from. It was not too long ago I told my DH that if I hadn't known God for myself I would have walked away from Christianity and become an atheist. I'm not ashamed for saying that because the things I have been experiencing at the hands of other Christians around me have left me shaken. Right now I feel like David must have felt when he was on the run from Saul, who should have been his mentor and I have had to ask God some serious questions.

There are 3 books I've read that helped me some and again I must note they were targeted for me, my situation and how I was dealing with it so they may not be of use to you but I will note them to make a point. They were 'Breaking Christian Curses', 'Enemy access Denied' and the one I'm presently reading, 'The Bait of Satan'. The first showed me that I was not way off in discerning that some serious evil was going on among so called believers that was destroying lives and had nothing to do with God and His will for His people. Getting away from that church was necessary but had serious repercussions. There is a brand of deception which indeed reminds me of the word that says in

Ezekiel 13:22 Because you disheartened the the righteous with your lies, when I had brought them no grief and because you encouraged the wicked not to turn from their evil ways and so to save their lives.

Romans 1: 21-22 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were they thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Verse 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Verse 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things that are not convenient.

1 Timothy 4: 1-2 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared with a hot iron.

The second book reminded me of how crucial and powerful obedience to God is. Sometimes we 'judge' God according to man's standard and what we have heard and not necessarily what He has said about Himself and shown us through scripture. I did some serious self examination. It took facing one of the biggest stumbling block to being a victorious, Christ lead individual and that is pride. You see I could check off my list of 'works'. How could I forget my fruits, the testimonies of healing from my prayers, the deliverance during my singing, the enlightenment from my exhortations, leading others to Christ and the list goes on and on, but some of those same individuals who could attest to those happenings would stone me to death today, if it was allowed (they use their tongues instead). So at this time of my life all that is now just lost to me (Thankfully, not to God). Thankfully I can now say good works does not make me anymore a Christian than having to live for Christ when others are slandering you so much that even those who should know you are shying away from you. I was genuine, didn't want to do anything unless I felt I was clean (not in any known sin), quick to repent, took the fall for others even to maintain unity in the 'body'. Now the body has proverbially dismembered me because I stood for truth against those who should have been teaching me truth. If it was a light matter I would have not stood out but even the little I said was enough. But I believe God sees and I choose to obey His expectations of me. There are many who took the fall for righteousness even to the point of death, but some saw great deliverances in God's timing. The key was obedience to God and to obey meant they had to believe even when He seemed distant and power looked like it was in the hands of men.

The third is exposing me to the trap of offense and how the devil uses it to deceive if it was possible even the very elect. Thankfully I have good knowledge of the scripture and also a review on Amazon helped prepare me for some aspects of this book that can keep a person in a wrong Church relationship. However the author's scriptural explanation of how offense can destroy or relationship with God and even abort His purpose for us, not by what anyone does or says to us but by our response, is very profound. The Israelites could have gotten out of the wilderness earlier if they hadn't got offended by their perceived disadvantage. What would have happened to Joseph if he had started questioning God's existence? Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ but ourselves when we choose not to believe.

Hebrews 3: 7-19
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[a]

12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[b] 16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[c]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.


I'm going through a time of healing during which things are still popping up and I do lack confidence addressing another person's issue while speaking from a painful place. However, Pooh after all that I wrote above the only thing I can say is what have been alluded to in many posts, only you can choose to believe and take God at His word by faith and as cliché as this may sound, I know He will step in and deal with the real issue behind your questions. There are just somethings about us only He alone knows. Right now He is revealing things about me in my situation that if He was trying to show me last year this time, I would have never took notice .

Thank you Pooh, I can assure you one thing, this thread is very necessary and just by reading some of the other post I'm sure many of us have been strengthened. I can't remember individual names but thanks to those of you who responded. I've been blessed.

Be blessed

 

[Poohbear]

My responses are in blue...

Answers/thoughts in purple.

For several years, I've attended church every Sunday and taught children the Bible. That's a great thing. It means that you have a firm foundation that you can return to. It may be confusing now, but know that you do already know the answers. During these years of attending church and teaching children, I felt somewhat like a robot going through the motions, just doing it not because God led me to do it, but because of my father. That's why I want to step back and check my motives as well as see what God wants me to do. Right now, I can definitely see that He wants some time with me. I feel like this thread is helping no matter how some of you may think it's not. Seeing the variations in what has been taught and what is believed by each individual person gives me the reassurance that no one really knows except for God.

However, I have been going through periods of unbelief and diminishing faith. I am confused about what to believe anymore. If you want to believe, believe what God's word says. Being confused about what God's word means is different than being confused about whether you believe it. This is why James says that God will give wisdom to those who need it, because we don't always understand. But the person seeking understanding must first believe His word. Think about it, if you're not sure whether someone is lying to you or not, it won't matter what answer comes out of their mouth...you're going to be unsure of whether they're speaking the truth. Question for thought: Regarding the Bible, is it that you don't understand what it says, or you don't believe that it's trustworthy? I agree that being confused about what God's word means is different about being confused about whether I believe it. To answer your question, I'm battling with is a little bit of both understanding and trusting the Bible... I'm confused about what it means because of how it's been taught to different people. I'm confused about whether to believe it because of my current thoughts and feelings. But like you pointed out in Romans 3:4 "Let God be true and every man a liar." And that even my thoughts and feelings can be deceitful. I know the Bible says even our hearts can be deceitful, so I believe that is why I'm also struggling with whether I believe or not. I don't know if my heart is deceiving me or not, and I'm not sure how I can tell the difference when it comes to things that are not black and white. For instance, I know my heart would be deceiving me if I feel like a certain sin pointed out in the Bible is wrong. But I don't know if my heart is deceiving me with doubts and fears of believing or not believing. Hope that makes some kinda sense.

The more and more I taught, the less and less sense the Bible made to me. It's like I have the knowledge, but slowly lost faith. I feel like good and bad things happen out of mere coincidence, not because of God's mighty power. Actually, it's a good thing to recognize that you don't really understand what the Bible is saying and how it all can be true. What matters is how you deal with it. I hope I can deal with it successfully. I believe not teaching the Bible will help me come to grips with my faith. I have been teaching children at the church since around 2003. It's like I got caught up in teaching others and was gradually losing faith in what I was teaching. I definitely see how teaching the word of God is a good thing to do, it's just that I felt forced to do it rather than feeling led by God to do it.


During church services, I have never really felt the spirit or felt like I wanted to jump up and down and clap and sing aloud like a lot of people I see in different churches. There are many denominations around the world in which jumping up and down and clapping would be considered out of order in church, or odd at least. Try not to allow your experience in one small corner of Christendom to define the whole of it. Then the pastor or a minister will try to say things in the pulpit like "If you don't get up and praise God, something's wrong with you" and other statements along that line. Such a pastor is being emotionally manipulative. Am I lacking the Spirit if I'm mainly quiet during service? If you want to know whether the Spirit is present in your life, consider whether you bear the fruit of the Spirit as defined in Galatians: love, joy, peace, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, patience, self-control. The Bible tells us how the Spirit works and moves in our lives, and I'm pretty sure that jumping up and down was never given as the definition of a Spirit-filled Christian...Also, excessive emphasis on emotionalism in worship can be very deceiving. Yeah, I've heard about churches that are the complete opposite too that do not condone all that hooping and hollering. This particular observation is something I've experienced at more than one church, not just the current church I attend. With the church I attend, my father got on me for not standing up with the rest of the church when he would say "everybody stand up and give God praise". He said I was not being in unity with the church. I just couldn't buy that. I felt like God didn't lead me to stand up. There have been times I have stood up but I don't want to feel like I'm forced to stand up just for the sake of feeding into my dad's controlling ego.
Someone else in this thread pointed out that you have the Spirit if you have those fruits. I feel like I have those fruits but I must admit that I sometimes struggle with peace and patience. I'm pretty patient with other people, but when it comes to myself, I'm not as patient at times. When it comes to peace, I am referring to peace of mind. Some disturbing things have happened to me over the pass few years and have put some mental stress on me, but I'm glad that I got through these disturbing times with the help of God. So maybe I do have the Spirit of God... it's just not an outward feeling of emotion like some people make it out to be, and I was basing possession of the Spirit off that which I shouldn't have.

But anyway, here are the main questions I have been wondering....
How do you know who you are in Christ? Question for you: Does God keep His promises? Based on what the Bible says, yes God keeps His promises. All I have to do is trust that He'll keep His promises throughout my life and actually believe that He has promises for me.

How do you know you believe in Christ? Question for you: Did Jesus die on the Cross for your sins? The Bible says Jesus died on the cross for the punishment of our sins. CoilyFields did a good job explaining how animal sacrifices were used as sin offerings in the Old Testament, and Jesus died as the sacrificial lamb so we would no longer have to do things like that. So I can see that fulfillment of the Law and how freeing that is for me today.

How do you know that you have a relationship with God? Eh..."relationship with God" language is tricky. The question is, "In His word, who does God say He is to you?" Yeah, the phrase "relationship with God" is thrown around alot too among Christians. The Bible says the God is a lot of things. Firsthand, it says that God is my Creator.

How do you know that Christ really died on the cross for the punishment of our sins? If you read what God's word says, it's a fact. If your question is about historical fact, Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ is an easy read. I plan on going to the bookstore to get this book.

Why is Christ dying on the cross so significant for our lives today? What is the difference between today and 2000 years ago? 2000 years ago, extraordinary things happened that you would not see happening today such as the different miracles that Jesus performed as well as just different stories in the Old Testament like Noah's Ark, Jonah in the big fish, etc. With that question, I was really asking how does Christ dying on the cross affect us today? How do you know that his death took the punishment for our sins when there's still consequences for our sins?

Would we really be dying left and right when we sin against God if Jesus had not died? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you thinking about the difference between God's wrath shown in the Old Testament and today? This is what I was getting at with that question... the Bible says the wages of sin is death. So I was thinking if Christ didn't die for the punishment of our sins, we would be dying left and right. Is that true or just backwards thinking? I've also heard this been taught as well.

 

[Poohbear]

My responses are in navy...

It's so easy to say you must have a relationship with God. I don't think the Bible ever says "You must have a relationship with God." Everyone is in some kind of relation to God. But which is it? Disciple? As in, "I am a follower of Christ." Rebel? As in, "He is in rebellion against God." Other?
But how do you have a relationship with God when God is supposedly a spirit? You are also spiritual. Just praying and reading the Bible and living like Christ as much as possible? I know we use "relationship with God" a lot, and it's not the worst thing. But I think that we infuse our own thoughts about relationships into that phrase and it can lead us astray in our thinking. To us, being in a relationship with someone is about spending time with them, and usually it revolves around all the positive feelings we associate with feeling close to someone. The Spirit brings deep joy and other positive things into our lives, so I would not say that walking with God is drudgery. However, I'll ask this: When Jonah was in the belly of the whale, what was his 'relationship' with God? When Peter was denying Jesus in the Garden, what was his 'relationship' with God? If we keep our eyes on ourselves, our thoughts about ourselves, our feelings about ourselves and God, we'll think that He has abandoned us every time we mess up. We will only see ourselves, and be unable to see the God who is unchanging, and His unchanging word.
You know what? You're right. It doesn't, and like I said earlier, that phrase "relationship with God" is thrown around alot. I think a better way to put it is to ponder what is my relationship "to" God. I'm not sure what my relation to God is right now. Before, I considered myself a disciple, but with these doubts, I'm not sure if I can still consider myself that. All I know is that I desire to live holy and right. I'm not sure what Jonah or Peter's relationship to God was at those specific points in their lives. I would say some type of rebel but no matter what, God was still with them.

It's easy to say "all Scripture is God-breathed" or the inspired Word of God, but how do you know that for the fact WITHOUT reading 2 Timothy 3:16?
What in this world do we know "for a fact"? We believe that George Washington was the first president of the United States, and yet, do you know that "for a fact"? And what is that "fact" based on? The Bible is an oral tradition, meaning that millenia ago, something happened in Israel, something major. And the word spread. And peope kept telling other people what happened. And people told other people, this is how to Christ works, this is how the Spirit moves. And 2000 years later, people are still bearing witness to the testimony that the first believers had. Why do I believe what Paul said? Because the truth of his words has always borne true in my life. He met Jesus and so did I. I continue to believe God's word, as it continues to be true.
When it comes to history, we don't know it's "for a fact", so you're right. I took an African-American history class in college and we talked about how the history of everything is based on oral tradition, and you never know what has been miscontrued or left out and altered down the line. I think because of this, that's why I have the doubts.

Why should I accept the statement "Christians will never stop sinning" but yet, people say "not everyone who proclaims to be Christian isn't saved or going to heaven because of how they live"? How are they living that's so different than you who still commit sin?
Again, you are battling what other Christians are saying about God. Focus more on what God's word says for itself. The Bible says that not everyone who approaches the Lord at the judgment will enter His Kingdom, and it will be because He "never knew them." They were not His disciples. They did not follow Him. Think about it. You can set out on a course to climb a mountain, and still make mistakes along the way. But you are still following that course. You could also choose to completely ignore the course and do your own thing. The difference between Christians who sin and unbelievers is that Christians are following the path that Jesus laid out and others are walking wherever their own heart takes them.

It is setting one's heart to follow Christ which enables God to convict of sin. Everyone has a conscience, but not everyone experiences conviction of sin. If you are on God's course, then He will start convicting you of sin. But He never said that faith would make us instantaneously perfect.

Also, it's pointless to judge God's word based on other people's claims to be a Christian. Didn't Jesus say that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom? Well, we can't know whether someone professing to be a Christian actually is one or not. So judging the content of their lives won't necessarily tell you anything about how God operates. Only reading His word will.
So I guess as long as I feel convicted of my sin, then I am a child of God?

Why aren't Christians more united? Sin. Why are there two sides to every fundamental issue of the Bible? (ie. women preachers, faith vs works for salvation, baptism, trinity, big sins vs little sins, calvinism vs arminianism, sinless perfection vs sinning Christians, and more? Do I have to choose sides?
There aren't two sides, there's only the truth. Whether you or I or anyone else has the answer, doesn't mean that God doesn't. You aren't responsible for figuring out all the mysteries of God's word. You're only responsible for step by step growing in faith and abiding why what is presented as true. Women preachers are not a fundamental issue, nor is calvinism v. arminianism, nor is mortal/venial sins. Those are denominational issues that have little to nothing to do with Christ's work for you on the Cross.

Can I go to Hell for not tithing 10% of my GROSS income?
Those who end up in hell are those who reject Christ as Lord and Savior.

Can I go to Hell for not participating in ALL church ministries and not attending a physical church building EVERY Sunday to worship God?
Those who end up in hell are those who reject Christ as Lord and Savior. Not to be repetitive, but what does God's word say? Does it say that you have to participate in all church ministries? Doesn't Jesus tell you what He expects of you? Don't the epistles describe what a holy life looks like?

That's all the questions I have for now.
Poohbear, while I do believe that you know more answers than you realize, you seem to make a lot of assumptions about the faith that have more to do with bad church experiences than what God's word actually says. Perhaps finding a place to "re-learn" the faith in a healthy way would be beneficial to you. Any time that I did not directly answer the question, it is not because I"m trying to dodge your question, but rather because the question as stated doesn't have an answer.

Thanks for saying all of this at the end. I need to stop worrying about these fundamentals and issues that are constantly debated. I think alot of it has do with being around my father alot because he's always talking about these issues of women preachers and tithing and calvinism vs armianism, and I agree it has nothing to do with what Christ did for us on the cross. I hope I can "re-learn" the faith in a healthy way too that will help me understand and give me that peace of mind. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post.

 

[Poohbear]

Re: Knowledge of Christ...but Lack of Belief and RelationshipU

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am going to assume your dad doesn't know about how you feel. I want you to be very honest with your father. Tell him that you don't feel comfortable/you don't think it is right to teach the children at church because of where you are in your faith. I agree with you on this. Teaching children about God when you are not quite there yet is not fare to them.

When I mean obey, I am referring to doing something that they asked you to do. There are certain activities that you can not avoid attending (school, work, vacation, etc.). In cases like this I would ask the parent if I could do what they wanted before or after my event, and how much of an importance is it. I heard that this guy asked another Christian to help his mom out with something because he wasn't able to do it, that was sweet. Other events (going to the beach, hanging out, etc.) can be canceled.

Last week, I told him how I felt. I sent him this email last Wednesday:
"It's not just needing a break from teaching...I just do not feel comfortable teaching anymore due to my diminishing faith. When I teach, all I do is use the commentary in the Life Applications Bible to explain certain verses. I seriously do not know what to believe anymore when it comes to the Bible and Christian beliefs. I do not want to be teaching a group of people on something I may not necessarily believe anymore. It has been bothering me for quite sometime... off and on since 2008. I personally have never really felt the spirit or presence of Jesus in my life. When I accepted Christ and got baptized at 8 years old, it was because if you don't believe in Jesus, you will go to Hell... a concept that most children are taught. I feel like there is a God as in the Creator of this world, but I'm just not sure about everything else that's in the Bible as well as all the concepts and fundamentals that different denominations debate over."

By the way, I believing in helping my parents. I don't mind that if they ask. It's just that factor of control with my dad. My mother is cool... my dad is a whole different story.

I am sorry that I wasn't clear about how I was defining socializing. Lets say that I am talking to someone after class. Her friend comes along (non-believer) and I am introduced to her. Now, all three of us are talking. Once the conversation gets inappropriate (cursing, sexually suggestive, etc.) I excuse myself. I run into the third girl a few days later and we talk for a short time. She asks me if I want to go to see a movie with her. My answer is no. Just like in a relationship, when you spend increasing amounts of time with a non-believer (or anyone for that matter) you start to mirror each others personality. More then likely the non-believer would pull you into sinful activities.

You don't have to leave .

No need for apology. You did nothing wrong. My thing is this... I'm the type of person that is not influence by others to do sinful activities or mirror after people. I'm pretty much myself around everyone (which is usually quiet and reserved). I do things because I want to, not because of what others are doing, whether they are a Christian or not. I think that's why I responded the way I did to your post about socializing with other people. Right now, I don't have any unbelievers that I hang with, but if I was in that predicament and they were engaging in a sinful activity, I wouldn't be participating in it.

 

[Poohbear]

She is an adult now and is responsible for her relationship with Our Father. If her father is the cause of this strife of her heart, she needs a breather from him so she can sort this out with her true Father. Obey the Lord first, always!

To seek the Lord is to pray in private and honest humility for His presence, His answer to the questions we have. The book of Psalms is full of prayers like this.

Thank you for saying this.

My father has caused a lot of strife... psychologically and spiritually. He feels like if you don't believe the exact same way that he believes on all issues and fundamentals of the bible, then you're salvation or claim of being a Christian is questionable. He feels like since he is a pastor, and if someone doesn't do what he says, they are being disobedient to God. He said all his visions and wants and desires are from God and everyone at the church should follow the pastor's lead. I cannot base my faith on how my father believes because I do not believe every single thing he believes is right according to what I read in my Bible. Yes, there are some things we agree on, but I do not feel like that is what makes me to be a Christian. And that's what I'm dealing with, getting pass the psychological and spirtual damage I have experienced over the years. I also don't like all the labels... he feels like Southern Baptist that are close to Calvinism beliefs are the closest to God's Word. I don't feel like labeling myself in that way is going to help my faith. That's the part of religion I reject, all the labeling, hidden agenda of man, and semi-legalism going on with God's word.

 

[Sharpened]

Thank you for saying this.

My father has caused a lot of strife... psychologically and spiritually. He feels like if you don't believe the exact same way that he believes on all issues and fundamentals of the bible, then you're salvation or claim of being a Christian is questionable. He feels like since he is a pastor, and if someone doesn't do what he says, they are being disobedient to God. He said all his visions and wants and desires are from God and everyone at the church should follow the pastor's lead. I cannot base my faith on how my father believes because I do not believe every single thing he believes is right according to what I read in my Bible. Yes, there are some things we agree on, but I do not feel like that is what makes me to be a Christian. And that's what I'm dealing with, getting pass the psychological and spirtual damage I have experienced over the years. I also don't like all the labels... he feels like Southern Baptist that are close to Calvinism beliefs are the closest to God's Word. I don't feel like labeling myself in that way is going to help my faith. That's the part of religion I reject, all the labeling, hidden agenda of man, and semi-legalism going on with God's word.

Philippians 2:12-13 Why, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

1 Corinthians 14:36 What? Came the word of God out from you? Or came it to you only?

Matthew 20:25-28 But Jesus called them to Him, and said, “You know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority on them. But it shall not be so among you: but whoever will be great among you, let him be your minister (servant); And whoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant (slave): Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered (served) to, but to minister (serve), and to give his life a ransom for many.”

Matthew 23:10 Neither be you called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Revelation 2:6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitanes (lay people), which I also hate.

Revelation 2:15 So have you also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

You already know this; you know the Bible better than I do. I have a problem with the pastor-on-top hierarchy because we were never to place ourselves above anyone else. We all have a job to do within Christ's Body. Jesus set the example of how a pastor is to conduct himself, how to evangelize, etc. Maybe I should post this in that Anne Rice thread…

One day you will look back at this time as a tribulation moment and see how much you have overcome.

 

[Crown]

My responses are in blue...
Would we really be dying left and right when we sin against God if Jesus had not died? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you thinking about the difference between God's wrath shown in the Old Testament and today? This is what I was getting at with that question... the Bible says the wages of sin is death. So I was thinking if Christ didn't die for the punishment of our sins, we would be dying left and right. Is that true or just backwards thinking? I've also heard this been taught as well.

I don’t think so. CoilyFields has explained it in post 69 :

...
Oh! But one question I can answer now is about Jesus atoning for our sins through his sacrificial death.

1. When man sinned in the garden the punishment was death and seperation from God.

2. God promised that someone would come that would eventually recconect man and God (the messiah).

3. But in the meantime to stay in right standing with God and because God is not a lier...something had to die when we sinned. (the wages of sin is death...period!).

4. So God established animal sacrifices where man could transfer his sin to an animal and with its death atone for his sin. (Now this was not some easy way out because God required it be your best and purest cattle-the most expensive etc.).

5. So eventually Jesus came and he became the sacrificial lamb.

The first sacrifice was made by Him, right after the sin, so we can live although we were separated from Him, the LIFE : Gen. 3.21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

An animal (or more than one) died for those clothes.

GOD is LOVE. HE does not want us to be perished. The Messiah IS the plan of salvation of the FATHER. This if Christ did not die can not exist.