Losing my religion

[Nyambura]

I haven't been on the board for the past couple of days so I'm just now able to respond to this. A glaring error that you state about Catholics, and that is not supported by the Catholic Church, is that Catholics and Christians are separate. Please point to anything from the Catholic Church stating that we are not Christians.

Stating the differences in beliefs between Catholicism and Christianity is not bashing. Explain the bashing to me. If Catholics don't go to priests and confess then I lied and as far as I know I didn't lie and I didn't bash anyone for going to a priest.
None of the Christian churches I have ever been too consider Catholics to be Christian so I separate the two and your above statement:



Supports that. You just said the statements come from people who are not Catholic and you are correct I'm not Catholic, I'm Christian.

I didn't put any statements in this topic to debate or offend and if something I stated about Catholics is not supported by the Catholic Church please point it out to me.

 

[Nyambura]

AnnDriena,
Please go back and read my post. You may not be here to debate but it does not seem like you are open to correcting your ways, either. Nowhere in my post did I say that what you have listed immediately below was offensive to me. In fact, if you had read my post, you would have seen where I agreed that the Bible doesn't support confessions to priests. I also clearly stated that you are wrong if you think Catholics are not Christians. Your analogy between Christians and Muslims is inapposite. I don't care to debate either but I will point out what you said is wrong. Since Catholics are Christians, yes, the fact that you continually separate Catholics from the rest of Christianity is wrong. As I said before, this suspect separation speaks more about human motivations and nothing about the Word of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnDriena_
Catholics
1) ask saints to pray for them
2) Pray to the virgin mary
3) Go to confession with priests




Those are the facts I stated that are apparently offensive to some. They were not meant to be offensive I just wanted to show the evidence for my belief in the difference between Catholicism and Christians.
It's like Muslims and Christians. Muslims believe in God but not the same one we believe in and to call them Christians just because they believe in God would be erroneous because the paths we believe in are different and Jesus said no man can get to the Father but by me and since Muslims don't believe in Jesus as the son of God then we don't believe in the same path.
So that's why my beliefs are the way they are.

I'm not here to debate.

 

[Nyambura]

I don't find your posts offensive at all, Pebbles. Differences between beliefs exist. You and I definitely agree on that. For the few who insist Catholics aren't Christians, such belief is not based on fact. And for those who insist, despite posts and evidence to the contrary, do appear to be here to bash Catholics and be offensive. It's one thing not to know something due to lack of exposure. It's another to plod doggedly on in ignorance irrespective of what is being shown to you (you in general, not you specific).

The reason is that while the members of this board, your church, and your priest are alive, St. Teresa and Avila are dead. The bible says that the dead know not what the living do. They have no knowledge of the things of the earth. Ecclesiastes 9:3-12 is pretty clear on that.

I do hope that people understand that the differences between beliefs is what is being highlighted. We're not here to bash or offend anyone.

 

[DelightfulFlame]

More on "free will"...someone posted this on another board. I thought it was interesting...
-------------------------------------
QUOTE(librarising @ Feb 25 2005, 06:30 PM)
Okay. I made a huge post yesterday disputing this but it got deleted, so here goes briefly again:

You have severly contradicted yourself in that statement. As many Christians believe, God is all knowing and all powerful, the Alpha and Omega, and is all knowing. But if you believe that God knows what path you will "choose", then that path has already been predetermined. If he knows and sees time as cyclical rather than linear, where the past and the present are one, then knowing the end result means that it has already happened - you don't have and were never given a choice. For instance, if I was clairvoyant and able to see into the future, and if free will did in fact exist, I could change the outcome. I would be able to see the outcome of Path A, and make it so that Path A did not end as I had forseen. However, if I could see into the future and tried to change my destiny, but no matter what path I took it would end in the same result, then my fate was predestined. Based on what you said, only God knows the beginning and the end. Therefore, I would have no knowledge about the end result, only God would. And if he already knows what will ultimately happen, no matter what path I've "chosen" or if I change my ways, then my fate has been predetermined.

I think the Merovingian in The Matrix Reloaded said it best: Choice is a concept created by those in power for those without power. The church seems to stress this concept of free will, while still putting forth the belief that God is omniscient, a clear contradiction in terms. It's like the age old philosophical question, "Could God create a boulder that was too heavy for even him to lift?" If you say no, then God is not all powerful. If yes, then God is not all powerful. Free will seems to me to be a concept originally stressed by the church for the purposes of having a chuch hieracy while pacifying the laypeople. If you are the master of your fate, then no one can ultimately be blamed for your mistakes except you. This concept seems to have worked well in the conquering and enslavement of other cultures via Christianity. A while ago, I started a thread on African Americans and Christianity. If we hadn't been enslaved would we still be Christian? And without being Christian, would we still believe in this concept of free will?

People discuss free will in similar contexts everyday. Take affirmative action, for example. Those in power say, "We are all created equal and we have equal opportunities in life." The opposing faction says, "No, we stated on unlevel playing fields. Many of the mistakes I made, the chances that I did not get in life, and the things that I can't overcome were as a result of where I began and the situation I was born into." I'd say that most of us on this board might agree with the opposing faction. However when it comes to placing this in a religious context, many switch to the former statement where we proclaim that, "I am the master of my own destiny and my own choices because the Bible says so." thebibleheavilyeditedbythechurchsaysso

I would like to know how other cultures and religions view the concept of free will. The closest I've gotten to researching any opposing belief system in this area is the philosophical concept of existenialism via writings by Albert Camus such as The Stranger. As far as religious beliefs, I believe that free will could work if you were a Deist. As a Deist, you believe that God is the Clockmaker and Architect of the universe and that is where he ends. In this belief system, divine intervention does not exist and you are the master of your own destiny. However, if you are a Christian and believe in divine intervention and the omnipresence of God (where he sees and knows all before it happens), then I believe that you have underestimated the limits that this belief system has on the concept of free will.

 

[pebbles]

More on "free will"...someone posted this on another board. I thought it was interesting...
-------------------------------------
QUOTE
(librarising @ Feb 25 2005, 06:30 PM)
Okay. I made a huge post yesterday disputing this but it got deleted, so here goes briefly again:

You have severly contradicted yourself in that statement. As many Christians believe, God is all knowing and all powerful, the Alpha and Omega, and is all knowing. But if you believe that God knows what path you will "choose", then that path has already been predetermined. If he knows and sees time as cyclical rather than linear, where the past and the present are one, then knowing the end result means that it has already happened - you don't have and were never given a choice.

No need to read any further. Here's the problem. This person believes that because God already knows what your decision is going to be, your destiny is "fixed." Yes, the Father knows what decisions you will make, but it's not because He made you make that decision. We have choices to make, and He knows what choices we will make. That does not mean that He made the choice; we made the choice. It is the Father's will that we have a choice. I wish I could explain better. I'll keep trying, though.

 

[AnnDriena_]

AnnDriena,
Please go back and read my post. You may not be here to debate but it does not seem like you are open to correcting your ways, either. Nowhere in my post did I say that what you have listed immediately below was offensive to me. In fact, if you had read my post, you would have seen where I agreed that the Bible doesn't support confessions to priests. I also clearly stated that you are wrong if you think Catholics are not Christians. Your analogy between Christians and Muslims is inapposite. I don't care to debate either but I will point out what you said is wrong. Since Catholics are Christians, yes, the fact that you continually separate Catholics from the rest of Christianity is wrong. As I said before, this suspect separation speaks more about human motivations and nothing about the Word of God.

No. I didn't say the Catholic church says that Catholics and Christians are separate. I said no church that i've ever been to has accepted Catholics as Christians. On the contrary ever since I became a Christian at age 13 whenever pastors are talking about the differences in religion many point to the differences between Muslims, Christians and Catholics

A glaring error that you state about Catholics, and that is not supported by the Catholic Church, is that Catholics and Christians are separate. Please point to anything from the Catholic Church stating that we are not Christians.

As I've stated before I'm perfectly open to correction but besides the separations of Catholics and Christians which I never said was supported by the CATHOLIC CHURCH, so I don't know why you asked me to find where the catholic church supports that, I haven't found out the answer to my previous post.
What was so full of errors about my post. The catholics praying to Mary when God said only pray to him? Or the asking the saints to pray for them? or the other points? Please point the "full of errors" part out to me.


But again please show me in my posts where I said the Catholic Church supports this separation. To the contrary The Mormon church is also calling themselves Christian. This nation being founded on Christian principles and Christianity being the majority they have found that it is less alienating and it helps with acceptance to be called Christian. But whenever there are differences being highlighted I've found that believers and non-believers alike will call to attention the differences between Catholics, Muslims, Christians, Mormons, Buddhists and etc.

If they thought any of those were the same religion it would confusing as to why they would contrast and compare them as such. They being the educated clergy and everyday laymen.

I know there are differences in the way some Christians worship but if they believe and follow the biblical tenents of the bible and the way Christ taught then they are following Christ. But things like praying to anyone other than God is more than a difference in the way worship is done. That seems to be a difference in beliefs. The bible teaches about repititious prayer so when an organization such as the Catholic Church trains priests who then go out and give instructions to their parishoners such as 50 Hail Marys for forgiveness of this or that. That to me is a difference in belief and is a practice that is in direct contradiction with what the bible teaches.

 

[AnnDriena_]

No need to read any further. Here's the problem. This person believes that because God already knows what your decision is going to be, your destiny is "fixed." Yes, the Father knows what decisions you will make, but it's not because He made you make that decision. We have choices to make, and He knows what choices we will make. That does not mean that He made the choice; we made the choice. It is the Father's will that we have a choice. I wish I could explain better. I'll keep trying, though.

That's excellent. It sounds like something I heard in a sermon once where our pastor said God didn't want a bunch of robots worshipping him because if he did he'd make better robots than us who keep turning against him.

 

[DelightfulFlame]

No need to read any further. Here's the problem. This person believes that because God already knows what your decision is going to be, your destiny is "fixed." Yes, the Father knows what decisions you will make, but it's not because He made you make that decision. We have choices to make, and He knows what choices we will make. That does not mean that He made the choice; we made the choice. It is the Father's will that we have a choice. I wish I could explain better. I'll keep trying, though.

that still doesn't make sense to me. You don't get to choose how you begin your life, yet you get to choose how you end it? Unless of course God's will calls for you to do something spectacu lar...then you don't get a choice about that...but you do get to choose the rest of it? I've never read that it is the God's will that we have a choice...where is that?

Is your destiny changeable? If the Father already knows the beginning and the end...what can you change about it? And if you can't change it...where is the free will?

 

[pebbles]

That's excellent. It sounds like something I heard in a sermon once where our pastor said God didn't want a bunch of robots worshipping him because if he did he'd make better robots than us who keep turning against him.

LOL! I know that's right!

 

[pebbles]

that still doesn't make sense to me. You don't get to choose how you begin your life, yet you get to choose how you end it? Unless of course God's will calls for you to do something spectacu lar...then you don't get a choice about that...but you do get to choose the rest of it? I've never read that it is the God's will that we have a choice...where is that?

Is your destiny changeable? If the Father already knows the beginning and the end...what can you change about it? And if you can't change it...where is the free will?

Yes. Your destiny is changeable in that you have the choice of what direction you will take and the decisions that you make. People either choose to believe and serve the Lord, or they choose to live apart from Him and do their own thing. If someone living a riotous life suddenly decides to stop and turn his live over to Jesus, he has just changed his destiny. And the reverse is true. We know that God is Omniscient, but that does not mean that He is forcing or manipulating us to choose one thing over another. We are making those choices for ourselves. And since we all have the ability to make our own choices, we are thus held accountable for our actions.

First understand that if a person is without true "Free Will," he could not be held responsible for his or her actions. Free will was first demonstrated with Adam. If Adam did not have the free will to sin against God, God would not have punished him for something beyond his control. That goes against the very nature of a loving God. Does it really make sense that God would force Adam to fall into sin then punish him for something he couldn't control in the first place? Of course not. As I've stated before, that would be manipulation. And God would not be the just God we know Him to be. You can't be punished for something you have no control over. The whole story of the bible is ordinary people making good and bad decisions of their own free will, the consequences involved, and God's mercy towards His people by sending the Savior.

Could God have kept Adam from sinning against Him? Certainly He could have. But then Adam would be a robot or a puppet. God wants us to choose Him of our own free will.

Does any of this mean that man's free will supersedes God's will? Absolutely not. No matter the choices we make, it is God's will that we have a choice. You are either operating in God's perfect will or God's permissive will, but either way, His will is still sovereign over all. Yes, He knows what we're going to choose. No, He doesn't manipulate us, and yes, for those of us who sin yet choose to believe in Jesus Christ, we are given a means of redemption.

Hope that was a little bit more clear.

 

[DelightfulFlame]

Where is it stated that it is God's will that we have a choice in the bible? I have posted scriptures that show otherwise...and have yet to see scripture about free will being God's will.

 

[MomofThreeBoys]

Where is it stated that it is God's will that we have a choice in the bible? I have posted scriptures that show otherwise...and have yet to see scripture about free will being God's will.

Deuteronomy 30:19 (New International Version)


19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live



Joshua 24:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD ."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=10&chapter=24&verse=12&version=31&context=verse
1 Chronicles 21:10
"Go and tell David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.' "

Proverbs 1:29
Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD ,

Proverbs 3:31
Do not envy a violent man or choose any of his ways,

Proverbs 8:10
Choose my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold,

Isaiah 7:15
He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right.

Isaiah 7:16
But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

Isaiah 56:4
For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant-

Acts 6:3
Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them

 

[DelightfulFlame]

But you cannot make those choices in your own strength, therefore you are not free. From my Merriam Webster Collegiate dictionary, 10th edition:

free will n(13c) 1: voluntary choice or decision 2: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or divine intervention



Proverbs 20
24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jeremiah 10 (KJV)
23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

1 Corinthians 12
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

1 Corinthians 4
7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Psalm 47
1O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.
2For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.
3He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.
4He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

now we were chosen before the world began...but we have free will not to be chosen?

John 15
16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,

James4
13Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will (man's know nothing will) go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live,(God's will) and do this, or that.
16But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

But I have free will, so I choose to live until I am 210 at least. :alcoholic

1 Timothy 4
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Isaiah 46
10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

How does God declare his will and we change it? He declared the end from the beginning...so everything that is happening now was declared long ago at the beginning. I am able to change that? I don't think so...

Matthew 13
9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

And the person who doesn't know has the free will to find out these mysteries? God I demand you to tell me these mysteries right now...according to my free will!

Romans 9
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

No God, I was born to do of my own free will...not yours!

Ephesians 1
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Does this mean that God had a purpose for my dad being a deadbeat? Or even for all of those folks who haven't/won't be "saved" before they die?

Romans 9
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

That old pharoah needs to quit making excuses. He could have unhardened his heart if he wanted to! Your going down Pharoah...you must be held accountable! To hell you go! What? You acting a fool was God's will? Whatever!!!!

Genesis 45
4And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.
5Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.

So what if God sent you brothers...man's will is stronger than God's will because that's the way God designed it in some scripture that I can't find right now...so you brothers still had a choice not to sell Joseph and not preserve life...cause God would have found somebody else...NOT

John 19
10Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

the untold story: and Pilate said, "No Mr. Jesus, you are mistaken...I have free will."

Jeremiah 13
23Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

well Michael Jackson did it...he was part Ethiopian or some kin to those other Africans way back in his family tree I'm sure. further evidence of free will...

Romans 8
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Acts 5
32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

at a crossroads here...you can't obey God without the Spirit...and you can't get the Spirit without obeying...hmm...where is the free will?

Romans 2
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

No Mr. Romans jr., I came to God out of my own free will.

Besides...God doesn't want me to be a puppet...computer. I pattern my life just like Jesus and He had free will, didn't he?

John 5
19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Mark 14
36And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

John 6
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 4
34Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

John 8
28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 12
49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 14
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jesus sure didn't use His free will very much.

 

[pebbles]

Where is it stated that it is God's will that we have a choice in the bible? I have posted scriptures that show otherwise...and have yet to see scripture about free will being God's will.

DelightfulFlame, did you happen to pay any attention to Natalied's post beneath your own? Do you not see that God says to choose? Believe me, God is not a man that He should lie! If He says you have a choice to make, then believe me, you have a choice to make!!

 

[pebbles]

Deuteronomy 30:19 (New International Version)


19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live



Joshua 24:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD ."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=10&chapter=24&verse=12&version=31&context=verse
1 Chronicles 21:10
"Go and tell David, 'This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.' "

Proverbs 1:29
Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD ,

Proverbs 3:31
Do not envy a violent man or choose any of his ways,

Proverbs 8:10
Choose my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold,

Isaiah 7:15
He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right.

Isaiah 7:16
But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

Isaiah 56:4
For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant-

Acts 6:3
Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them

Wonderful!!! GOD doesn't lie! If He says you have to choose, then you have to choose! He's not doing it for you!

 

[pebbles]

DelightfulFlame, with all due respect, there is so much absurdity in your post, I will not spend much time addressing them all. Your will to live to 210...so your will is to try to defy the laws of nature, and you think that free will should allow that? Come on, now! Michael Jackson...??? I won't even touch that. It's ridiculous!

Clearly your intention is not to try to gain an understanding, but instead to try to bring people to your way of thinking. Your tone is sarcastic and argumentative, so I don't see the point in continuing this particular discussion with you. That's cool, though! If someone else needs me to elaborate, I'll do so, but you seem very set in your belief. That's fine. But I wonder why you keep bringing this topic up if you're determined to believe what you want? A few of us have tried to explain it to you but to no avail. Believe what you will. After all, you have the free will to choose to believe or not.

If I had to think and believe what you believe about GOD, a) GOD would not be the loving and just GOD that I KNOW he is, and b) I wouldn't waste my time trying to live right. I'd be on the street smoking, having sex with whomever I choose, going to the clubs nightly, cursing and swearing and being just as nasty as I want to be, because none of it would make a difference. By your view, if I'm to be saved, I will be, regardless of how I live, and if I'm going to hell, I could try to live right but it wouldn't make a difference because I'm going to hell anyway. Further still, by your views, it's God's intention that people rape, kill, be depressed, strung out on drugs, kill their parents, fornicate, lie, steal, etc. So, none of this has anything to do with the will of man to choose for himself, but everything to do with the Father who wills for us to sin against His own commandments? That is just astounding... That really makes sense to you? Ok.

And none of the scripture you picked support your arguments. Not one! I don't have the time to go over them all, but let me hit on a few for the benefit of others who may have some questions anyway.

Proverbs 20
24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Proverbs 20, in it's entirety, is about considering the consequences of your actions. You're made to ask, "what will happen afterwards if I do this?" Verse 24 is about leaning towards the understanding of God's wisdom for He knows what's best for you. He has a set, perfect path for you to walk in, but He allows you to choose the opposite direction, if that's what you want. Doing it your way never leads to the understanding that man thinks he has, but to chaos and separation from God. How do I know this? By reading the bible and seeing how time after time, man makes bad choices and when they repent, God restores them.

Psalm 47
1O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.
2For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.
3He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.
4He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah.

Thankfully, the LORD has CHOSEN an inheritance for us which is salvation through walking with and believing in Jesus Christ as The Risen Savior. Now it's up to us to ACCEPT that inheritance, and as we all know, many have CHOSEN to ACCEPT it, and many have NOT CHOSEN to do so!

John 15
16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,

This statement is the truest of them all. He has chosen us all, for it is the will of GOD that we should all be saved. That's why He sent Jesus to die for us! But many have not chosen Him in return! That's what this passage is saying. Anyone who picks up the bible and reads that passage, that message is for them. Yet how many have read it and turned away anyway? GOD does not want any to perish! So of those who have chosen Him, we are to "go and bear fruit-fruit that will last." Please, understand this!

Lastly, all of the quotes you have listed questioning that Jesus was able to use His free will are all negated because you forget that Jesus's will was in line with the will of the Father!! He wanted to save us! That is the power of His love for us!! Knowing what was coming, He had a natural fear and apprehension. Jesus was God made flesh. He was human and was able to understand the suffering that He would endure. That's why Jesus understands fear and suffering. He experienced it Himself. But notice that Jesus says to God, "not my will but THY will be done." That means, "Father, whatever you want me to do, I choose to accept your will over mine!" He made a choice to obey the Will of the Father!!!

I wish you could get this thing, because without this understanding, I don't see how you believe in the saving grace of Jesus' sacrifice for us. If He didn't do it willingly that means He didn't really want to save you. That minimizes His sacrifice on the cross. And His willingness to die for our sins is what makes what Jesus did on the cross the ultimate sacrifice. Being God, He could have said no, then where would we be? But He humbled Himself to the will of the Father to save me, and Lord, I'm so glad He did it!!

It appears you believe that you don't have a choice to serve Him. You apparently feel you're doing it because you have to, and not because you want to. According to you, you don't have a choice. And if that's your belief and attitude, well. . . That's a cruel god you serve. Thankfully, that's not the God I serve. I have a choice to accept Him or deny Him.

At any rate, even if you never get it, I'm thankful that others understand it. And for those who might have been confused but were able to see and now understand the grace of our loving Father in giving us choices, all of this was worth it. God is not the author of confussion. His word is consistently consistent, and complimentary through similar passages in the bible. Peace, sis. :Rose:

Edited for spelling.

 

[DelightfulFlame]

Yes, I read Natalied's post...and began my post by addressing it. You speak about the laws of nature, yet free will defies the laws of nature...sometimes you think you have it...sometimes you don't. What is consistent about that? I can't choose to live until 210, but I can choose everything else about my life...except for those times when God's will and my will bump into each other and He makes me do something...but every other time I'm free? That really does not make sense to me.

You say that Jesus was in line with God's will. Show me where we are out of line with it...every last person/thing on this earth is here doing whatever they are because of God's will. I showed you scripture that stated that He works everthing...ALL...according to His will.

As far as all of the bad things that people do...yes, God is responsible. He is not some punk, weak God with humans who were perfect and mutated into being imperfect. He is not some mad scientist...and we are experiments gone wrong. He is GOD...if He wanted us perfect...WE WOULD BE PERFECT.

If you can choose to do something other than what God's will plans for you to do...then that counts as works. You can actually change the will of God. You are your God.

You totally changed Jesus words...He never said He "chose" to do God's will.

The God I serve is not cruel...in fact He's just the opposite! For some reason He saw fit to birth me into this world on 6:35 am on March 16, 1978. He hasn't given me everything I wanted of my own free will, but He gave me everything I needed according to His will. It wasn't always pretty or pleasant...but He saw me through it. There were times when I was doing crazy stuff...didn't have a clue...didn't care...yet He saw fit to bring me through. I have learned so much and am thankful that the things I have gone through...good and bad...have a purpose and aren't just "haphazord".

Even if you never get it...I'm thankful that God has shown me and others too. I post these scriptures because there may be someone else here that God is showing too. I'm thankful for all of you...even if we never agree...for God's will has a purpose for everything...even that which we don't like or agree with.

Ecclesiastes 3
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

 

[pebbles]

You say that Jesus was in line with God's will. Show me where we are out of line with it...every last person/thing on this earth is here doing whatever they are because of God's will. I showed you scripture that stated that He works everthing...ALL...according to His will.

Oh my goodness, did you read my previous post where I said:"Does any of this mean that man's free will supersedes God's will? Absolutely not. No matter the choices we make, it is God's will that we have a choice. You are either operating in God's perfect will or God's permissive will, but either way, His will is still sovereign over all." How do you interprit this to mean that I'm even suggesting our will goes above the will of God?

You totally changed Jesus words...He never said He "chose" to do God's will.

What? Ok, this is my signal to end it. Believe what you will, DF. Peace!

 

[Edie]

If you have lost your religion, praise God! Religion is man made. Faith is God made. Religion or religous practices such as baptist, catholic, pentacostal, etc. are things instituted by man on how he worships God. All of these things are merely symbolic. "For you are saved by Grace, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the Gift of God." Faith is what will restore you. Faith is what redeemed you. Work on growing your faith. Spend time alone with God's word. Praise Him when you are feeling low. You will be surprised that by just praising Him, your spirit will be uplifted. I have become quite a songwriter when praising God. I just sing about all the things that He is, He has done, etc. The songs may not have rhythmn and they may not have soul, but I know they are reaching His ears.

Peace!

 

[AnnDriena_]

When God said choose life (Him) I take that as HIM Giving us a choice.

And God wants the best for all of us if we didn't have free will I think he would make us ALL worship and accept him so that none of us would perish because that's what he wants for us. But of course not all of us have chosen life.

And just from studying the bible and learning about the mind and ways of the Lord I think he would have us all come to him and live the abundant life he wants for us. But that's not going to happen because a lot of us are going to perish and he doesn't want that for us but He gave us free will. And it's not like our choices are out of his hands. He can make every knee bow but he chose to let us make the choice. So I don't think him giving us free will is making anything out of his control it's never out of his control but the horrible things we do to ourselves and each are never what he wants for us.