Masturbation and the Word of God

[Poohbear]

Well y'all have suckered me in after days of avoiding this thread. (Not sure if my rough humor translates across the screen so I will insert this.)

Me too. I'm surprised I'm even posting in the thread because I don't even masturbate. I've just never had the desire to and don't know how to... :Blush2:

 

[PrissyMiss]

Me too. I'm surprised I'm even posting in the thread because I don't even masturbate. I've just never had the desire to and don't know how to... :Blush2:

 

[Poohbear]

For real though... I've had a few people I met ask me if I've ever done it and they are shocked and surprised that I haven't. I've just never been introduced to doing the act. I had always thought it was a guy thing, then I found out later on in life when I was in my 20's that women masturbate too!

 

[PrissyMiss]

Deleted... never mind

 

[loolalooh]

To answer your question if Sarah was to do 2x a day, imho she is headed towards addiction. If she is doing it everyday and 2x a day, it obviously is not working. Therefore, she needs to find another method. It is like spanking a child. If you have to spank a child 6x a day, then it is clear that that form of discipline is clearly not working.

To answer the second part of your question, no I don't think it is, at least for me. Submission is a thing that would require you to completely give in. From my point of view, submission would be having sex of any kind.

Disclaimer: Hope you don't take this as me picking on you ... I'm just very interested in this fragment of the discussion.

Continued:
So when does one determine if the spanking is working? If one only spanks the child 1x a week? 1x a month? or if the child eventually never has to be spanked again? Same with masturbation.

What is a sign that masturbation is "working"? If it's meant to keep one from having sex, then isn't it "working" for Sarah?

.... Or do we know that masturbation is "working" when it gets to a point that we never have to do it againerplexed? (I'm applying the spanking analogy here and assuming that spanking works if it never has to be done again.)

Basically, what I'm getting at is 1) how does one define "working", 2) how frequent is too frequent, and 3) what's wrong with running to prayer time or time with God as an alternative "method"?

 

[Farida]

You have to define whether or not masturbation is a sin before you compare it to premarital sex. If it is not a sin, then it is preferable to premarital sex. If it is a sin, then surely you cannot say God prefers one sin over another. That is man's spin on sin. For God, sin is sin (unless you are Catholic and go into mortal v. venial sin). So, before you compare it you have to judge it on its merits.

Jesus gave the highest standard. You could argue, it is better for a man to fantasize about a married woman than have sex with her. For us men, that is preferable, but Jesus said even mere thoughts constitute adultery.

So, you must judge the act before you compare it.

All I know on this topic is Catholic oppose it, I think the consensus is that about 95% of boys do/have done it and the rest are known to lie about it.

It is a terrible thing if it is done with lust - which I don't understand how one can do it without lusting or if you divert sexual energy that you should direct to your husband elsewhere. Basically you scratch your itch and you now have less interest to take care of your spouse.

But I cannot repeat it enough. You must judge it on its own merit, whether or not it is a sin, not whether or not it is preferable to other actions. If we go down that road there is no end...

 

[PrissyMiss]

Disclaimer: Hope you don't take this as me picking on you ... I'm just very interested in this fragment of the discussion.

Continued:
So when does one determine if the spanking is working? If one only spanks the child 1x a week? 1x a month? or if the child eventually never has to be spanked again? Same with masturbation.

What is a sign that masturbation is "working"? If it's meant to keep one from having sex, then isn't it "working" for Sarah?

.... Or do we know that masturbation is "working" when it gets to a point that we never have to do it againerplexed? (I'm applying the spanking analogy here and assuming that spanking works if it never has to be done again.)

Basically, what I'm getting at is 1) how does one define "working", 2) how frequent is too frequent, and 3) what's wrong with running to prayer time or time with God as an alternative "method"?

Actually I don't feel picked on because I realize that this way of thinking is different and is not often expressed.

Futhermore, to offer another point of view, I assumed that Sarah found herself masturbating a couple times of day out of sexual frustration. From the conversations that I have had with those who are like Sarah, I can tell that masturbation is something that they do to replace sex because they don't have anybody to have sex with, not to keep themselves from having sex. Does that make sense? So for that kind of person masturbation would become a temporary solution. I believe that temporary solutions aren't really solutions at all because ,I'm sure for those like Sarah ,once they find themselves in a sexual position again they would fall, because it was never really a solution to begin with.

However, I would say that if masturbation curves the thought and the act of sex, than it is working. From my understanding that is what masturbation is for. It's an act used to curve a desire and in order to curve the desire, you have to curve the thought as well.

So, if Sarah is not masturbating out of sexual frustration, but indeed committing the act multiple times because she can't get her mind off of sex, then it isn't working. That would let me know that masturbation was only allowing Sarah to think about sex even more.

As far as spanking that's a different topic for a different day.

 

[PrissyMiss]

Farida, to address your post although I said that I don't believe that God would have me do it because it stops me from committing the act of premarital sex, I wasn't saying that I believe that one sin is greater than another, and that God prefers one sin over another. However, I said what I said because I don't think masturabtion is a sin, and I am basing that on 1) I still can't find any biblical scriputure that supports the thought, and 2) because I know that it can actually curve the desire to have sex and curve lustful thoughts.

 

[nathansgirl1908]

Yes, my opinion based upon our cannon law. It's my right to follow my own church. Shrugs. She asked, I gave, but I didn't elaborate on the particulars other than to say this is permissible in mine. If it's not permissible in yours, then by all means, please abide by what is lawful where you are. This is why I am constantly saying on here that not all christianity is the same. It isn't, very evidently on CF. Now, just to clarify, I am referring to the scenario where the husband denies her and is neglecting her. That's not a marriage and that can be annuled if approved, according to the circumstances behind it. In my church, it's allowable and they would be able to remarry. I mean, if you don't find it to be authentically christian or not, that's okay. It doesn't bother me.

And that's what I don't understand. At the end of the day, aren't we supposed to be following GOD and not the rules imposed by our various churches? If a husband is neglecting a wife and denying her, then that couple should seek counseling because there are deeper issues there.

On another note, I'm amazed that apparently it is foreign to think a married woman would fantasize about her own husband while masturbating. Never mind that he could be overseas in iraq which is why she might feel the need to masturbate.

 

[Guitarhero]

And that's what I don't understand. At the end of the day, aren't we supposed to be following GOD and not the rules imposed by our various churches? If a husband is neglecting a wife and denying her, then that couple should seek counseling because there are deeper issues there.

Yes, by my following my church which follows scripture and sacred or divine tradition. That's another story aside from the topic. I don't make converts but here's a scripture. Everyone should follow what they have been taught or what they believe to be the truth. I don't see the problem but I think Poohbear summed it up well. Even the pastor gives an interpretation of what he believes to be the truth but he is only a man.

II Thessalonians 2:15
"But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. And it was for this that He called you through our gospel that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."



About neglecting one's wife, I'm not saying head for the divorce court and never seek counseling. I'm saying that those are grounds for considering their union severely flawed and incomplete, which could be granted an annulment.

 

[nathansgirl1908]

About neglecting one's wife, I'm not saying head for the divorce court and never seek counseling. I'm saying that those are grounds for considering their union severely flawed and incomplete, which could be granted an annulment.

But who determines that it is flawed and incomplete? Man or God? Does God place that much emphasis on sex that He would say the marriage is flawed and incomplete?

 

[Guitarhero]

But who determines that it is flawed and incomplete? Man or God? Does God place that much emphasis on sex that He would say the marriage is flawed and incomplete?

Well, I'll say this, authority was given and what is bound on earth is bound in heaven. So, for us, we follow this sacred tradition because it is divinely given.

Marriages that are flawed or incomplete are those that are not truly marriages. All the conditions weren't met in the beginning of the marriage. Who determines? We do, based upon what God gives us. But doesn't faith work the same way? It's not superimposed on anybody. We're not robots. But this is kinda off topic and I do certainly comprehend why you are asking. I guess it's that there are people who are in your denomination and there are other people in ours and in others. We will never change to become another. We just all have to learn to live together with mutual respect realizing that the differences exist. Shrugs and hugs.

 

[nathansgirl1908]

Well, I'll say this, authority was given and what is bound on earth is bound in heaven. So, for us, we follow this sacred tradition because it is divinely given.

Marriages that are flawed or incomplete are those that are not truly marriages. All the conditions weren't met in the beginning of the marriage. Who determines? We do, based upon what God gives us. But doesn't faith work the same way? It's not superimposed on anybody. We're not robots. But this is kinda off topic and I do certainly comprehend why you are asking. I guess it's that there are people who are in your denomination and there are other people in ours and in others. We will never change to become another. We just all have to learn to live together with mutual respect realizing that the differences exist. Shrugs and hugs.

But what is sacred about declaring a marriage as flawed and incomplete because of a lack of sex? That's the part that I think is more about man than God. When someone decides that a marriage is flawed and incomplete because of sex, in that instance it appears that there is no focus on the other parts. Women on here talk about how they want to get married to be a helpmate. You can be a helpmate even without the sex. If a spouse is tragically injured which renders that person completely unable to have sex, the marriage can still be strong if they were married for the right reasons.

I understand that we all have different denominations, but there are some things that are just basic in the kingdom of God. Is there scripture that states that a marriage and is flawed and incomplete because of a lack of sex?

 

[Guitarhero]

But what is sacred about declaring a marriage as flawed and incomplete because of a lack of sex? That's the part that I think is more about man than God. When someone decides that a marriage is flawed and incomplete because of sex, in that instance it appears that there is no focus on the other parts. Women on here talk about how they want to get married to be a helpmate. You can be a helpmate even without the sex. If a spouse is tragically injured which renders that person completely unable to have sex, the marriage can still be strong if they were married for the right reasons.

I understand that we all have different denominations, but there are some things that are just basic in the kingdom of God. Is there scripture that states that a marriage and is flawed and incomplete because of a lack of sex?

You're basically coming at it from a different theological stance, one which is based upon scripture only. That's the reason why I repeat that there are many differences in the body. About the sex, it's not simple like that. That's why it has to go through a court process to determine if it can be annulled or not. I'm not saying that people should seek divorce but if, at the beginning of a marriage, he held out information that he was, for example, impotent, she has a right to divorce him. He came in fully aware he was cheating her. Of course, this is our side. I don't expect other's to agree nor even comprehend it. Nothing is very simple, one has to dig deep into the conditions of the situation in cases like those. I'm getting an annulment and when I remarry, I will not in the least bit be worried about committing adultery. My marriage wasn't at all valid (not for the reasons stated above. Not throwing that on the ex I'll rise above him!). But isn't this beside the topic of whether masturbation is sinful or not?

 

[CoilyFields]

So, basically, you guys believe that you shouldn't do any physical thing before marriage. Like Poohbear said, kissing, touching, and other things of that nature does not have to be sexual. In fact, they are great ways of showing emotions.


So how would masturbation fall into the category of fornication?

Others may not but I do completely believe that kissing and touching should not happen before marriage. It may seem extreme but I think that is because we have all grown up in a culture where everything sexual is permissable and we are measuring it by the worlds standards rather than Gods.

If God designed sex for marriage than every act that comes under that umbrella is forbidden.

I guess look at it like this: if you are married, the same things you wouldnt want your husband doing with another woman...are the same things that would constitute sexual impurity before marriage. Kissing is sexual, touching is sexual...and we all know in what context Im talking about (i.e. not a kiss on the cheek from your grandpa, not a pat on the back from your coworker etc.)

Disclaimer: Oh my goodness I am so guilty of having not followed this and have repented for my numerous sins in this area.

 

[CoilyFields]

Futhermore, to offer another point of view, I assumed that Sarah found herself masturbating a couple times of day out of sexual frustration. From the conversations that I have had with those who are like Sarah, I can tell that masturbation is something that they do to replace sex because they don't have anybody to have sex with, not to keep themselves from having sex. Does that make sense?
However, I would say that if masturbation curves the thought and the act of sex, than it is working. From my understanding that is what masturbation is for. It's an act used to curve a desire and in order to curve the desire, you have to curve the thought as well.

Im a little confused with your explanation.

Isnt the bolded the same thing? the point of masturbation is to release sexual frustration (meaning you are aroused and whether by choice or circumstance, have no one appropriate to satisfy you-like a husband-so you engage in this act of masturbation to reach satisfaction.

Because masturbation satisfies you temporarily rather than curb the desire...because eventually you do it again? (I would say how often may depend on your own libido)

 

[trenise]

Oh. I want to make another point on the issue of how can someone masturbate without having lustful thoughts. Many people who have intellectual disabilities masturbate on the regular, even in front of people. Many of them are so mentally incapacitated, I dare say they can't fantasize about someone sexually. Somewhere along they way, they discovered a sensation that was pleasing to them, and for them, that's all it is.

 

[CoilyFields]

^^^ I was assuming that we were only talking about people who CAN help it. People with disabilities are held to a different standard based on their particular abilities (I strongly believe).

OT: I really do enjoy debating/discussing with you ladies. Of course this is not something that we would present to unbelievers or even babes in Christ because there are so much more important things to learn. Not all issues are heaven or hell issues but as we continue on this Christian walk God expects us to live holy, and to be going from glory to glory. Once we learn better, we do better and I appreciate all the viewpoints that people have to offer! Keep them coming!!!

It forces me to examine the reasons I hold certain beliefs and if they are based on the word, tradition, or my own interpretation, and whether I should keep or toss them. We should all regularly examine ourselves, as the bible says and I find this forum keeps me on my toes! Thanks!!

 

[Guitarhero]

Oh. I want to make another point on the issue of how can someone masturbate without having lustful thoughts. Many people who have intellectual disabilities masturbate on the regular, even in front of people. Many of them are so mentally incapacitated, I dare say they can't fantasize about someone sexually. Somewhere along they way, they discovered a sensation that was pleasing to them, and for them, that's all it is.

That's true. I had a little girl jump me. We were at the bus stop and she just sat on my lap and went to town. The grip of that 12 year old child, like a gorilla. Her mother was so apologetic. I didn't act afraid because I knew she had developmental problems and didn't want to further embarass her mom. But that's true, they cannot at all control themselves. It's purely physical, not emotional.

 

[PrissyMiss]

Im a little confused with your explanation.

Isnt the bolded the same thing? the point of masturbation is to release sexual frustration (meaning you are aroused and whether by choice or circumstance, have no one appropriate to satisfy you-like a husband-so you engage in this act of masturbation to reach satisfaction.

Because masturbation satisfies you temporarily rather than curb the desire...because eventually you do it again? (I would say how often may depend on your own libido)

No it's not the same thing, which is why you have to read the sentence in its entirety. I was explaining that some people do it because they don't have anyone to have sex with , rather than masturbating to stop having sex period and to curve the thought of sex.

This is why I say definitions are important. That's how you perceive masturbation. Sexual frustration and feeling horny are two different things. Feeling horny is a biological, natural thing. Hence the reason, this thread is still going. The only time I ever feel the need to masturbate is when I am ovulating. Any other time, since I am not sexually frustrated, I'm okay.

To better help you understand, here is a definition from wikipedia:
"Sexual frustration describes the condition in which a person is in a state of agitation, stress or anxiety due to prolonged sexual inactivity and/or sexual dissatisfaction that leads them to want more sex or better sex, or a state in which he/she is sexually aroused (accusatory sense), although more often it implies simply an uncomfortably low level of sexual activity.
Lack of sexual activity is not the only cause of sexual frustration; the condition may also be caused by a lack of a desired activity, such as acting out fantasies or trying new positions. In many cases, sexual frustration leads to compulsive masturbation."

How high or low the libido has no correlation with how often one masturbates.
Man, maybe I should become a Sex Therapist or a Sex Educator. :scratchch

 

[PrissyMiss]

Others may not but I do completely believe that kissing and touching should not happen before marriage. It may seem extreme but I think that is because we have all grown up in a culture where everything sexual is permissable and we are measuring it by the worlds standards rather than Gods.

If God designed sex for marriage than every act that comes under that umbrella is forbidden.

I guess look at it like this: if you are married, the same things you wouldnt want your husband doing with another woman...are the same things that would constitute sexual impurity before marriage. Kissing is sexual, touching is sexual...and we all know in what context Im talking about (i.e. not a kiss on the cheek from your grandpa, not a pat on the back from your coworker etc.)

Disclaimer: Oh my goodness I am so guilty of having not followed this and have repented for my numerous sins in this area.

I would disagree. One of the personalities that God injected in every person is the need to be and feel loved. To agree with what you are saying, imho, it goes against biolgoy. It goes against the way he created us. No matter how clingy or independent a person is, they want to feel affection. It's an innate desire. Kissing, touching, and etc. do not necessarily have to be sexual even in a romantic relationship. I guarantee you, any person can tell the difference between an affectionate kiss and a sexual kiss. For instance, if I was a married woman, and I walked in the house and kissed my husband upon seeing him, that kiss would not be a sexual kiss, it would be an affectionate.

 

[CoilyFields]

^^^But you would not accept that explanation from your husband if he went up and kissed an unrelated woman on the lips...due to the affection he felt toward her. Because there is a certain set of privilages that are reserved for a spouse because of the intimate nature of them.

I totally agree that God designed us with a desire for affection. He gave us many feelings and desires. My point is that there are appropriate outlets for these desires. They can become sinful if used in counterfeit situations. God created the institution of marriage as an outlet for all of those feelings of affection, desires, sexual longing etc. Just becuase you feel a certain way before you are married does not mean you have a right to act on it...every since the fall of humans we have been out of tune with the perfect order of God and have had to force ourselves into subjection.

Also, feeling horney and feeling sexual frustration, whether you consider them the same or different, lead to the same outcome...masturbation. It seems that youre saying that your intentions are what make it a sin or not. While I am saying that the act is a sin outside of marriage. Dont get me wrong, I do understand where Paul said many things are lawful but not everything is expedient and good for me. I dont consider masturbation one of those lawful things that you choose if its good for you.

Which takes us back to the basic question of the thread lol...Is masturbation a sin. You say depends, I say yes outside of marriage. We can agree to disagree because I now completely understand your stance and I think you understand mine!

 

[PrissyMiss]

I just want to make one thing clear. My stance on masturbation is: it is not a sin. I view this topic like the topic of anger. Anger does not glorify God, yet the bible clearly states that there is nothing wrong with being angry. It isn't a sin to get angry, but it's what you do during that moment of anger that can result in sin. That's how I view masturbation. From my point of view masturbation itself is not sin, there is still no scripture that says that masturbation is a sin, however, it is the pornography, the lust, the fantasies that can easily turn it into a sin. But we are going to have to agree to disagree.

I'm won't say that I am right and you are wrong, but I won't say that you are right and I am wrong either. Like I said before, the Holy Spirit reveals certain things to certain in people in certain seasons. This is just one thing he has revealed to me.

 

[nathansgirl1908]

Because there is a certain set of privilages that are reserved for a spouse because of the intimate nature of them.

There is a certain set of privileges reserved for someone you are with. Doesn't HAVE to be a spouse. The same thing could be said for a boyfriend/girlfriend.


Realistically since we are prone to sin, we should be careful not to set unreasonable standards for ourselves. To date someone without ever holding hands or kissing is such a standard.

 

[Guitarhero]

For American and western culture in general perhaps because that is not the standard and certain stigma have been removed and taken out of the realm of sin. In an eastern christian culture, little physical contact is desirable and expected to maintain holiness. Maybe we need to abide by our own limitations due to our cultures. But some things are absolutely forbidden. We're just on the fence about what those are exactly. And perhaps any kind of physical contact in the past was frowned upon as a fence law, to prevent escalation of passions. The issue then might become what is considered scandal. The perceptions will vary by culture and age. So, what might cause one christian to sin should be avoided. What might not cause another to sin is allowable.

 

[CoilyFields]

There is a certain set of privileges reserved for someone you are with. Doesn't HAVE to be a spouse. The same thing could be said for a boyfriend/girlfriend.


Realistically since we are prone to sin, we should be careful not to set unreasonable standards for ourselves. To date someone without ever holding hands or kissing is such a standard.

The Bible only talks about sexual and intimate privilages as relating to spouses. WE created the in-between statuses of boyfriends and girlfriends and friends with benefits etc. hence the confusion about boundaries and such.

Also, our ability to meet the standard does not mean we should (or even have the authority to) lower the bar. a lot of standards may seem unreasonable simply because they go against what we are used to and desire.

As Natchitoches mentioned above, other cultures have no problem enforcing and abiding by those standards and they create envirionments that support those morals ( of course we are at a disadvantage because american culture does its best to ensure that you think about sex on a regular basis!). So its not like its impossible...its just become acceptable...which doesnt necessarily make it right.