Once Saved, Always Saved- Yes Or No

[lalah]

This was something my pastor stated in Bible Study last week. Based off my personal studies and other teachings, I don't agree. Below is the email I sent to my pastor regarding the statement. He responded saying time constraints won't allow to specifically answer my questions right now, but intends to a later date. A copy of his response is below mine. Do you believe that "Once save, always saved"?

My Email:

I have a question about a statement you made in Wednesday night’s Bible Study.

You stated, “Once saved, always saved.”

The following scriptures in the Bible are why I am confused about the belief "once saved, always saved" because of grace.

Who was Jesus speaking of when he stated in Matthew 7:21-23 -Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?” And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!”?

The Lord could not possibly have been talking to people who are outside of the church or nonbelievers. Nonbelievers do not prophesy or call on the name of the Lord. I thought he was talking about believers or people who are in the church and don’t strive to live a lifestyle of holiness by turning away from their besetting sins, and bearing the fruits of the Spirit in their daily lives. This is not to say that our works will save us, but I thought that willful sinning, versus a moments of weakness, was another way that people consciously and deliberately reject Christ.

Romans 6:1-3 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin, how can we live in it any longer?

Romans 6:15-16 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey-whether you are slaves to sin, which lead to death, or to obedience, which lead to righteousness?

So I ask, if a person says the sinner’s prayer or takes the profession of faith, is baptized, starts coming to church, and etc., but still continues to live a lascivious lifestyle outside of church, are they truly saved? Will grace cover them for their besetting sins? From my understanding, grace is for when we fall short of the glory of God or make mistakes that are considered sin, not an excuse to live a life of being comfortable sinning. I understand that we cannot earn salvation by works and that it is a gift. But does not our deeds prove our faith as stated in James 3, in which he also states that even demons recognize and believe in God? So he is saying it is not a matter of just believing right? In mentioning the deeds or actions of Abraham, wasn't this in reference to obedience to God, as well as belief in God's promise?

James 3:18-24 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even demons believe that- and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the alter? You see that faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scriptures were fulfilled that say, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Hebrews 10: 26-27 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice of sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Doesn't the above verse speak of willful sinners who know God's ways, hears it preached, studies it, yet continually and deliberately keeps on sinning with no desire to change, but feel they are fine because all they have to do is tell God sorry (false repentance). So in essence, willful sinners have the knowledge, but no application of that knowledge, so therefor they are rejecting the one true sacrifice for sins, which is the Lord Jesus Christ. If this is true that willful sinners reject Christ's sacrifice, then what does that mean in terms of salvation?

What about Timothy 2:5 that makes reference to people in the last days that will have a form of godliness or outward appearance of godliness, but denying its power to truly change them- depending on Bible translation.

Matthew 24:10-12 talks about people who will be falling away from the faith, betraying one another, hating one another, false prophets deceiving people, and people’s love growing cold because of increased wickedness, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

So based off these scriptures, I am confused about the "once saved, always saved" statement.

His Response:

However, there are some scriptures that I would like to share with you concerning eternal security and the final perseverance of the saints. This can also be studied through several books on the matter, the most prominent is by Arthur Pink.

John 10:27-30

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30I and my Father are one.


KJV


Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.


KJV


Titus 3:4-7

4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


KJV

 

[Shimmie]

Literally... Everyone was saved on the Cross. Jesus died for everyone, meaning He stayed there until every person, past / present / future and each and every sin was accounted for. When all was done, Jesus said, "It is Finished".

Now, it is up to an individual to accept Him as Lord and to remain in Him.

Folks can fall away and others reject Jesus which is isolation from their salvation. Although they are saved, they are not living in it.

 

[lalah]

Literally... Everyone was saved on the Cross. Jesus died for everyone, meaning He stayed there until every person, past / present / future and each and every sin was accounted for. When all was done, Jesus said, "It is Finished".

Now, it is up to an individual to accept Him as Lord and to remain in Him.

Folks can fall away and others reject Jesus which is isolation from their salvation. Although they are saved, they are not living in it.

Thanks for your response Shimmie.

Can you explain what you mean that by rejecting Jesus is isolation from their salvation?

 

[Shimmie]

Thanks for your response Shimmie.

Can you explain what you mean that by rejecting Jesus is isolation from their salvation?

Sure

When people reject Jesus (deny His salvation) they have isolated (removed) themselves from Him.

Agnostics, Atheiests, other religions outside of Jesus Christ as Lord are among those in isolation from Him.

The term " once saved always saved" , can be (and is by many) misused and misunderstood that a person who has accepted Jesus can fall away (back slide -- return to sin) and be okay with God. They feel they can sin and not be held accountable. However their sin has also isolated them as they are no longer "walking with the Lord".

I hope this makes sense. I'm typing from my phone. Please let me know.

 

[dicapr]

I don't believe once saved always saved. What if you whole heartedly reject God after being saved for a time? Does God force salvation on those who don't want it? Or are people saying that those who reject God after following him were never saved in the first place?

 

[lalah]

Okay I copied this from gotquestions.org. This further backs my belief on why "once saved, always saved is not so. This topic concerns me so because I have several friends who profess to be Christians, go to church, serve on different ministries, but live a very carnal lifestyle. They feel that profession of faith and grace covers them. I'm not perfect. No one is. But the way I see it, so many people are being deceived.

Question: "Why is faith without works dead?"

Answer: James says, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). Faith without works is a dead faith because the lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart. There are many verses that say that true saving faith will result in a transformed life, that faith is demonstrated by the works we do. How we live reveals what we believe and whether the faith we profess to have is a living faith.

James 2:14–26 is sometimes taken out of context in an attempt to create a works-based system of righteousness, but that is contrary to many other passages of Scripture. James is not saying that our works make us righteous before God but that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. Works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation. Faith in Christ always results in good works. The person who claims to be a Christian but lives in willful disobedience to Christ has a false or dead faith and is not saved. Paul basically says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 6:9–10. James contrasts two different types of faith—true faith that saves and false faith that is dead.

Many profess to be Christians, but their lives and priorities indicate otherwise. Jesus put it this way: “By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers’” (Matthew 7:16–23).

Notice that the message of Jesus is the same as the message of James. Obedience to God is the mark of true saving faith. James uses the examples of Abraham and Rahab to illustrate the obedience that accompanies salvation. Simply saying we believe in Jesus does not save us, nor does religious service. What saves us is the Holy Spirit’s regeneration of our hearts, and that regeneration will invariably be seen in a life of faith featuring ongoing obedience to God.

Misunderstanding the relationship of faith and works comes from not understanding what the Bible teaches about salvation. There are really two errors in regards to works and faith. The first error is “easy believism,” the teaching that, as long as a person prayed a prayer or said, “I believe in Jesus,” at some point in his life, then he is saved, no matter what. So a person who, as a child, raised his hand in a church service is considered saved, even though he has never shown any desire to walk with God since and is, in fact, living in blatant sin. This teaching, sometimes called “decisional regeneration,” is dangerous and deceptive. The idea that a profession of faith saves a person, even if he lives like the devil afterwards, assumes a new category of believer called the “carnal Christian.” This allows various ungodly lifestyles to be excused: a man may be an unrepentant adulterer, liar, or bank robber, but he’s saved; he’s just “carnal.” Yet, as we can see in James 2, an empty profession of faith—one that does not result in a life of obedience to Christ—is in reality a dead faith that cannot save.

The other error in regards to works and faith is to attempt to make works part of what justifies us before God. The mixture of works and faith to earn salvation is totally contrary to what Scripture teaches. Romans 4:5 says, “To him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.”James 2:26 says, “Faith without works is dead.” There is no conflict between these two passages. We are justified by grace through faith, and the natural result of faith in the heart is works that all can see. The works that follow salvation do not make us righteous before God; they simply flow from the regenerated heart as naturally as water flows from a spring.

Salvation is a sovereign act of God whereby an unregenerate sinner has the “washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit” poured out on him (Titus 3:5), thereby causing him to be born again (John 3:3). When this happens, God gives the forgiven sinner a new heart and puts a new spirit within him (Ezekiel 36:26). God removes his sin-hardened heart of stone and fills him with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit then causes the saved person to walk in obedience to God’s Word (Ezekiel 36:26–27).

Faith without works is dead because it reveals a heart that has not been transformed by God. When we have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, our lives will demonstrate that new life. Our works will be characterized by obedience to God. Unseen faith will become seen by the production of the fruit of the Spirit in our lives (Galatians 5:22). Christians belong to Christ, the Good Shepherd. As His sheep we hear His voice and follow Him (John 10:26–30).

Faith without works is dead because faith results in a new creation, not a repetition of the same old patterns of sinful behavior. As Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 5:17, “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”

Faith without works is dead because it comes from a heart that has not been regenerated by God. Empty professions of faith have no power to change lives. Those who pay lip service to faith but who do not possess the Spirit will hear Christ Himself say to them, “I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers” (Matthew 7:23).

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

So some people think that grace offers them some kind of protection so they can continue to live in sin, God forbid.

 

[whosthatgurl]

So some people think that grace offers them some kind of protection so they can continue to live in sin, God forbid.

My pastor just spoke on this maybe two weeks ago, and mentioned that grace and mercy can only cover so long.

I don't know how to answe the OP's question, but I know for myself personally, I've gone to the alter for being in a backslidden state. It's to where I literally don't feel comfortable. Even one mess up, I don't feel comfortable.

 

[Shimmie]

So some people think that grace offers them some kind of protection so they can continue to live in sin, God forbid.

An example of this are the two gay men on Iyanla's current season. They feel they can continue to live the gay life and still pastor a church and not call it sin.

 

[Shimmie]

Okay I copied this from gotquestions.org. This further backs my belief on why "once saved, always saved is not so. This topic concerns me so because I have several friends who profess to be Christians, go to church, serve on different ministries, but live a very carnal lifestyle. They feel that profession of faith and grace covers them. I'm not perfect. No one is. But the way I see it, so many people are being deceived.

Question: "Why is faith without works dead?"

Answer: James says, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). Faith without works is a dead faith because the lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart. There are many verses that say that true saving faith will result in a transformed life, that faith is demonstrated by the works we do. How we live reveals what we believe and whether the faith we profess to have is a living faith.

James 2:14–26 is sometimes taken out of context in an attempt to create a works-based system of righteousness, but that is contrary to many other passages of Scripture. James is not saying that our works make us righteous before God but that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. Works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation. Faith in Christ always results in good works. The person who claims to be a Christian but lives in willful disobedience to Christ has a false or dead faith and is not saved. Paul basically says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 6:9–10. James contrasts two different types of faith—true faith that saves and false faith that is dead.

Many profess to be Christians, but their lives and priorities indicate otherwise. Jesus put it this way: “By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers’” (Matthew 7:16–23).

Notice that the message of Jesus is the same as the message of James. Obedience to God is the mark of true saving faith. James uses the examples of Abraham and Rahab to illustrate the obedience that accompanies salvation. Simply saying we believe in Jesus does not save us, nor does religious service. What saves us is the Holy Spirit’s regeneration of our hearts, and that regeneration will invariably be seen in a life of faith featuring ongoing obedience to God.

Misunderstanding the relationship of faith and works comes from not understanding what the Bible teaches about salvation. There are really two errors in regards to works and faith. The first error is “easy believism,” the teaching that, as long as a person prayed a prayer or said, “I believe in Jesus,” at some point in his life, then he is saved, no matter what. So a person who, as a child, raised his hand in a church service is considered saved, even though he has never shown any desire to walk with God since and is, in fact, living in blatant sin. This teaching, sometimes called “decisional regeneration,” is dangerous and deceptive. The idea that a profession of faith saves a person, even if he lives like the devil afterwards, assumes a new category of believer called the “carnal Christian.” This allows various ungodly lifestyles to be excused: a man may be an unrepentant adulterer, liar, or bank robber, but he’s saved; he’s just “carnal.” Yet, as we can see in James 2, an empty profession of faith—one that does not result in a life of obedience to Christ—is in reality a dead faith that cannot save.

The other error in regards to works and faith is to attempt to make works part of what justifies us before God. The mixture of works and faith to earn salvation is totally contrary to what Scripture teaches. Romans 4:5 says, “To him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.”James 2:26 says, “Faith without works is dead.” There is no conflict between these two passages. We are justified by grace through faith, and the natural result of faith in the heart is works that all can see. The works that follow salvation do not make us righteous before God; they simply flow from the regenerated heart as naturally as water flows from a spring.

Salvation is a sovereign act of God whereby an unregenerate sinner has the “washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit” poured out on him (Titus 3:5), thereby causing him to be born again (John 3:3). When this happens, God gives the forgiven sinner a new heart and puts a new spirit within him (Ezekiel 36:26). God removes his sin-hardened heart of stone and fills him with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit then causes the saved person to walk in obedience to God’s Word (Ezekiel 36:26–27).

Faith without works is dead because it reveals a heart that has not been transformed by God. When we have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, our lives will demonstrate that new life. Our works will be characterized by obedience to God. Unseen faith will become seen by the production of the fruit of the Spirit in our lives (Galatians 5:22). Christians belong to Christ, the Good Shepherd. As His sheep we hear His voice and follow Him (John 10:26–30).

Faith without works is dead because faith results in a new creation, not a repetition of the same old patterns of sinful behavior. As Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 5:17, “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”

Faith without works is dead because it comes from a heart that has not been regenerated by God. Empty professions of faith have no power to change lives. Those who pay lip service to faith but who do not possess the Spirit will hear Christ Himself say to them, “I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers” (Matthew 7:23).

Thank you. I needed to read this.

 

[lalah]

Okay so I also read on their site salvation cannot be lost. They also have a response to once saved, always saved saying it is true. But in the answer, they seem to distinguish between a person who is just being religous versus truly being born again or a true Christian with corresponding scriptures. Be back in a few. And thanks for all your reaponses. I am truly trying to discern the truth.

 

[lalah]

Question: "Once saved always saved?"

Answer: Once a person is saved are they always saved? When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure. Numerous passages of Scripture declare this fact.

(a) Romans 8:30 declares, "And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified." This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.

(b) Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Who will bring a charge against God's elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the one who condemns. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.

(c) Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away.

(d) The Holy Spirit indwells all believers (John 14:17; Romans 8:9) and baptizes all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). For a believer to become unsaved, he would have to be "un-indwelt" and detached from the Body of Christ.

(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

(f) For the most conclusive argument, Scripture says it best itself, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39). Remember the same God who saved you is the same God who will keep you. Once we are saved we are always saved. Our salvation is most definitely eternally secure!

 

[lalah]

Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"

Answer: First, the term Christian must be defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer or walked down an aisle or been raised in a Christian family. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what makes a Christian. A Christian is a person who has fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior and therefore possesses the Holy Spirit (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8–9).

So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation? It’s a crucially important question. Perhaps the best way to answer it is to examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation and to study what losing salvation would entail:

A Christian is a new creation. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). A Christian is not simply an “improved” version of a person; a Christian is an entirely new creature. He is “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be destroyed.

A Christian is redeemed. “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:18–19). The word redeemed refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. We were purchased at the cost of Christ’s death. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have to revoke His purchase of the individual for whom He paid with the precious blood of Christ.

A Christian is justified. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). To justify is to declare righteous. All those who receive Jesus as Savior are “declared righteous” by God. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and “un-declare” what He had previously declared. Those absolved of guilt would have to be tried again and found guilty. God would have to reverse the sentence handed down from the divine bench.

A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is the promise of spending forever in heaven with God. God promises, “Believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be redefined. The Christian is promised to live forever. Does eternal not mean “eternal”?

A Christian is marked by God and sealed by the Spirit. “You also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory” (Ephesians 1:13–14). At the moment of faith, the new Christian is marked and sealed with the Spirit, who was promised to act as a deposit to guarantee the heavenly inheritance. The end result is that God’s glory is praised. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to erase the mark, withdraw the Spirit, cancel the deposit, break His promise, revoke the guarantee, keep the inheritance, forego the praise, and lessen His glory.

A Christian is guaranteed glorification. “Those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). According to Romans 5:1, justification is ours at the moment of faith. According to Romans 8:30, glorification comes with justification. All those whom God justifies are promised to be glorified. This promise will be fulfilled when Christians receive their perfect resurrection bodies in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.

A Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Christ would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation is the gift of God, and God’s gifts are “irrevocable” (Romans 11:29). A Christian cannot be un-newly created. The redeemed cannot be unpurchased. Eternal life cannot be temporary. God cannot renege on His Word. Scripture says that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).

Two common objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation concern these experiential issues: 1) What about Christians who live in a sinful, unrepentant lifestyle? 2) What about Christians who reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem with these objections is the assumption that everyone who calls himself a “Christian” has actually been born again. The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a state of continual, unrepentant sin (1 John 3:6). The Bible also says that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he was never truly a Christian (1 John 2:19). He may have been religious, he may have put on a good show, but he was never born again by the power of God. “By their fruit you will recognize them” (Matthew 7:16). The redeemed of God belong “to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God” (Romans 7:4).

Nothing can separate a child of God from the Father’s love (Romans 8:38–39). Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28–29). God guarantees eternal life and maintains the salvation He has given us. The Good Shepherd searches for the lost sheep, and, “when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home” (Luke 15:5–6). The lamb is found, and the Shepherd gladly bears the burden; our Lord takes full responsibility for bringing the lost one safely home.

Jude 24–25 further emphasizes the goodness and faithfulness of our Savior: “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”

 

[lalah]

Okay so I know these post are long, but very informative. I think I'm getting a better understanding on this.

 

[Shimmie]

Okay so I know these post are long, but very informative. I think I'm getting a better understanding on this.

You're doing wonderfully. God tells us to study (His Word) to show ourselves approved and to meditate upon His Word, day and night.

May God continue to water and enrich your heart, soul and spirit with His loving words which give you His insight and His will.

In Jesus' Name, Amen and Amen.

 

[whosthatgurl]

Okay I copied this from gotquestions.org. This further backs my belief on why "once saved, always saved is not so. This topic concerns me so because I have several friends who profess to be Christians, go to church, serve on different ministries, but live a very carnal lifestyle. They feel that profession of faith and grace covers them. I'm not perfect. No one is. But the way I see it, so many people are being deceived.

Question: "Why is faith without works dead?"

Answer: James says, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). Faith without works is a dead faith because the lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart. There are many verses that say that true saving faith will result in a transformed life, that faith is demonstrated by the works we do. How we live reveals what we believe and whether the faith we profess to have is a living faith.

James 2:14–26 is sometimes taken out of context in an attempt to create a works-based system of righteousness, but that is contrary to many other passages of Scripture. James is not saying that our works make us righteous before God but that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. Works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation. Faith in Christ always results in good works. The person who claims to be a Christian but lives in willful disobedience to Christ has a false or dead faith and is not saved. Paul basically says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 6:9–10. James contrasts two different types of faith—true faith that saves and false faith that is dead.

Many profess to be Christians, but their lives and priorities indicate otherwise. Jesus put it this way: “By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers’” (Matthew 7:16–23).

Notice that the message of Jesus is the same as the message of James. Obedience to God is the mark of true saving faith. James uses the examples of Abraham and Rahab to illustrate the obedience that accompanies salvation. Simply saying we believe in Jesus does not save us, nor does religious service. What saves us is the Holy Spirit’s regeneration of our hearts, and that regeneration will invariably be seen in a life of faith featuring ongoing obedience to God.

Misunderstanding the relationship of faith and works comes from not understanding what the Bible teaches about salvation. There are really two errors in regards to works and faith. The first error is “easy believism,” the teaching that, as long as a person prayed a prayer or said, “I believe in Jesus,” at some point in his life, then he is saved, no matter what. So a person who, as a child, raised his hand in a church service is considered saved, even though he has never shown any desire to walk with God since and is, in fact, living in blatant sin. This teaching, sometimes called “decisional regeneration,” is dangerous and deceptive. The idea that a profession of faith saves a person, even if he lives like the devil afterwards, assumes a new category of believer called the “carnal Christian.” This allows various ungodly lifestyles to be excused: a man may be an unrepentant adulterer, liar, or bank robber, but he’s saved; he’s just “carnal.” Yet, as we can see in James 2, an empty profession of faith—one that does not result in a life of obedience to Christ—is in reality a dead faith that cannot save.

The other error in regards to works and faith is to attempt to make works part of what justifies us before God. The mixture of works and faith to earn salvation is totally contrary to what Scripture teaches. Romans 4:5 says, “To him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.”James 2:26 says, “Faith without works is dead.” There is no conflict between these two passages. We are justified by grace through faith, and the natural result of faith in the heart is works that all can see. The works that follow salvation do not make us righteous before God; they simply flow from the regenerated heart as naturally as water flows from a spring.

Salvation is a sovereign act of God whereby an unregenerate sinner has the “washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit” poured out on him (Titus 3:5), thereby causing him to be born again (John 3:3). When this happens, God gives the forgiven sinner a new heart and puts a new spirit within him (Ezekiel 36:26). God removes his sin-hardened heart of stone and fills him with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit then causes the saved person to walk in obedience to God’s Word (Ezekiel 36:26–27).

Faith without works is dead because it reveals a heart that has not been transformed by God. When we have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, our lives will demonstrate that new life. Our works will be characterized by obedience to God. Unseen faith will become seen by the production of the fruit of the Spirit in our lives (Galatians 5:22). Christians belong to Christ, the Good Shepherd. As His sheep we hear His voice and follow Him (John 10:26–30).

Faith without works is dead because faith results in a new creation, not a repetition of the same old patterns of sinful behavior. As Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 5:17, “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”

Faith without works is dead because it comes from a heart that has not been regenerated by God. Empty professions of faith have no power to change lives. Those who pay lip service to faith but who do not possess the Spirit will hear Christ Himself say to them, “I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers” (Matthew 7:23).

Sheeeeseeesh. That just got me ALL the way together. Lord. Now I need to go back to the alter.

 

[Galadriel]

I don't believe in once saved always saved.

First, because I don't believe salvation is a one-time event, it's a process.

Salvation = Justification + Sanctification

Justification is Christ's atonement for your sins on the Cross, thereby redeeming you and opening you to a restored relationship with God the Father. Justification is not something earned or won by us, but is a free gift offered to us because Christ already paid the price on the Cross.

Sanctification is the interior holiness, given and sustained by God's grace, that keeps you in communion with Him and empowers you to do righteous works and reject sin. The purpose of sanctification is for you to grow closer to God (because "holy" in the Bible literally means set apart. We are set apart by God to be His people, His children, and participate in His goodness and purity). Sanctification also prepares you for Heaven.

ALL of this has to be done with your cooperation, because God does not force you into communion with Him, nor will He force you into Heaven. When you decide to not cooperate with God, you are in danger of losing your salvation.

"If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death." 1 John 5:16-17

Mortal sin leads to the death of the soul, it kills sanctifying grace in our souls and separates us from God. A soul that dies in mortal sin cannot go to Heaven, because by its very nature it is unfit for the environment of Heaven. A soul that dies in mortal sin also cannot repent, hence the fallen angels and damned souls in Hell can never repent or receive grace.

I believe a Christian endangers his salvation, endangers his soul if he commits mortal sin, and/or if he rejects Christ, Christ's teachings, or does not hold on to the Faith.

 

[ItsMeLilLucky]

Great thread ladies!

 

[momi]

Yes I believe in eternal security of the believer. If we are truly born again no one can snatch us out of the Father's hand... not even ourselves. This does not give us a license to sin, because continuing in sin without conviction or repentance is a sign that one was never a true believer in the first place. Great discussion and feedback from everyone!

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10:28

The one who says, 'I have come to know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us... 1 John 2:19

 

[momi]

I forgot to add the scripture that "sealed" this for me. I remember years ago when I claimed to know Christ, but was always so worried - no terrified - about losing my salvation. Looking back, my concern was justified because I was still willfully sinning. The worry was the Holy Spirit prompting me to examine myself to see if I was truly of the faith.

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30 ESV)

 

[kanozas]

We are saved from shame, sin, suffering and spiritual death by his redeeming act. But when you comprehend the difference between mortal and venial sins and believe in His mercy, you begin to see the picture a little clearer. You can die outside of grace, even as a believer. On the way to His crucifixion, he fell but got back up again until the end. We need to trust Him and continuously respond to His gift of mercy. It's not over until it's over. We're not "saved" yet. We're still here. But the Eternal One is in charge of everything and He determines who enters heaven. We have pointers and direction but I find that, in my Church, we don't take it as a given and with humility. And how to show the fruits of salvation? By actions. Without works, you have nothing to show which choice you made. Complex, but simple.

 

[lalah]

The above responses are why I am saddened by how my pastor chose to respond to me. The scriptures he gave only speaks of God's grace and salvation for the true born again believer, but he's not making that distinction. I notice he always skips over the verses such as those I mentioned in my original post and @momi mentioned:

The one who says, 'I have come to know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us... 1 John 2:19

I don't feel my pastor is purposely trying to deceive people. For the true born again believer, the versus he presented to me in his response are true. But he does not emphasize the importance of living a holy and sanctified life to be justified as having eternal salvation. He will say things like we are set apart and we are not like the world, but he does not go into details as to what that really means. He always preaches grace, grace, grace. One time he preached on fence hoppers, but he made a comment saying that just means you haven't made up our mind to totally follow Christ yet. I feel he should have explained what that meant in terms of salvation. I like my church and my pastor so I will keep praying that God will speak to him regarding this.

I thank God that I spend personal time studying the Word for myself and I get fed through other ministries as well.

 

[whosthatgurl]

I don't believe in once saved always saved.

First, because I don't believe salvation is a one-time event, it's a process.

Salvation = Justification + Sanctification

Justification is Christ's atonement for your sins on the Cross, thereby redeeming you and opening you to a restored relationship with God the Father. Justification is not something earned or won by us, but is a free gift offered to us because Christ already paid the price on the Cross.

Sanctification is the interior holiness, given and sustained by God's grace, that keeps you in communion with Him and empowers you to do righteous works and reject sin. The purpose of sanctification is for you to grow closer to God (because "holy" in the Bible literally means set apart. We are set apart by God to be His people, His children, and participate in His goodness and purity). Sanctification also prepares you for Heaven.

ALL of this has to be done with your cooperation, because God does not force you into communion with Him, nor will He force you into Heaven. When you decide to not cooperate with God, you are in danger of losing your salvation.

"If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death." 1 John 5:16-17

Mortal sin leads to the death of the soul, it kills sanctifying grace in our souls and separates us from God. A soul that dies in mortal sin cannot go to Heaven, because by its very nature it is unfit for the environment of Heaven. A soul that dies in mortal sin also cannot repent, hence the fallen angels and damned souls in Hell can never repent or receive grace.

I believe a Christian endangers his salvation, endangers his soul if he commits mortal sin, and/or if he rejects Christ, Christ's teachings, or does not hold on to the Faith.

Can you explain "mortal" sin please?

 

[Belle Du Jour]

I think the once saved always saved doctrine is not consistent with scripture or tradition.

"Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." Rev 21:27 (NIV)

Yikes.

That's the beauty of the Sacraments. The Eucharist and penance can help to maintain a state of grace. But all of us will fall sometimes. God sees those souls that are "working out their salvation" and has mercy on them. I believe many "righteous" will be surprised at the Judgement because they thought they were okay.

@ whosthatgurl Mortal sin: is serious sin committed with full knowledge and consent of the sin ie adultery or murder. Venial sin is a "lesser" sin or a serious sin that was done without full knowledge or full consent ie telling the proverbial white lie.

I know this is a hot button issue but I think the beauty of Purgatory (if you can call it that LOL) is that it reconciles the ideas that nothing impure can enter the Kingdom with the fact that we are humans who sin and God is abundant in mercy. Purgatory is not a get out of jail free card. Rather it is an opportunity for purging the remnants of sin that we committed on earth. God's love is described as a refining fire which is exactly what Purgatory is--a place of refinement. That being said, I hope to go directly to Heaven,God-willing.

 

[LivingInPeace]

Keep in mind that your denominations beliefs re: salvation may differ.

 

[dicapr]

I see that the idea of once saved only saved can only be supported
the idea that those who backslide or leave the faith were never "saved" in the first place. I'm not sure if I agree with that. There are many examples in the bible where those who were lost relented and were saved and those who stared out with God lost their way. Why would these cautionary stories be presented if one was not able to alter their fate?

 

[Galadriel]

Can you explain "mortal" sin please?

1 John 5:16-17 states that: "If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."

A sin that "leads to death" is a mortal sin. Mortal sin is a grave or serious offense against God's Law. It destroys grace in the soul and places you in a state of separateness or disconnection from God (because God is all-good and all-holy, thus we cannot abide in Him or be close to Him if we are in a state of sin).

Mortal sin is basically spiritual death, and if one dies in such a state, he/she goes to Hell. With that said, God is always waiting for us to repent (hence why we believe in the Sacrament of Penance aka Confession). God is always willing to forgive us our sins and restore us to a state of sanctifying grace, but repentance cannot be done after death. So up until your last breath, you always have the opportunity to repent and receive God's forgiveness and grace. So, I will agree with @momi in the sense that we cannot be taken away from God or separated from Him if we are truly seeking Him and repentance. WE may fail, because we are weak, but God will not fail us. However, God will not force us to go to Heaven, and He will not force His grace on us. We must accept it and cooperate with Him. This is why Christians talk about having a "relationship" with God, with Jesus Christ, because we acknowledge that He is the "Lover" and we are the "Beloved," and He seeks for us to love Him and say "Yes" to Him.

 

[momi]

I see that the idea of once saved only saved can only be supported
the idea that those who backslide or leave the faith were never "saved" in the first place. I'm not sure if I agree with that. There are many examples in the bible where those who were lost relented and were saved and those who stared out with God lost their way. Why would these cautionary stories be presented if one was not able to alter their fate?

Could you provide some new testament examples @dicapr?

 

[dicapr]

@momi I think the most compelling argument that choices are not permenent in the New Testament can be found in Revelations 3:14. The church of the Laodicians had become complacent -neither hot nor cold. They are instructed to repent and return to their first love before God spews them out of his mouth-basically disowning the church body. If being chosen to be a church of God is conditional I would have to also believe that being saved as an individual is conditional. My church teaches that the churches in Rev 3 are architypes for Christian struggles and sins one may fight against. If this true-which I believe it is- forgetting your first love is a salvation issue. You have the choice to return to your first love or not. The love was true because the church/backsliding Christian is instructed to return. You can't return to something that never existed.

 

[momi]

@momi I think the most compelling argument that choices are not permenent in the New Testament can be found in Revelations 3:14. The church of the Laodicians had become complacent -neither hot nor cold. They are instructed to repent and return to their first love before God spews them out of his mouth-basically disowning the church body. If being chosen to be a church of God is conditional I would have to also believe that being saved as an individual is conditional. My church teaches that the churches in Rev 3 are architypes for Christian struggles and sins one may fight against. If this true-which I believe it is- forgetting your first love is a salvation issue. You have the choice to return to your first love or not. The love was true because the church/backsliding Christian is instructed to return. You can't return to something that never existed.

Thank you @dicapr. You've made some great points... I'll add my two cents.

The Laodiacian church is an excellent example of a church body that had become complacent. Thinking that their monetary wealth and great achievements were equal to right standing with God. Because of their wealth they'd began to rely on themselves and had forgotten that true wealth only comes from a relationship with The Lord. He reminds them of this and warns them that choosing to continue in the same manner would cause them to be worthless, good for nothing, and unfit for the Master's use.

Just as the Laodiacian church, we all can come to a point where we need to be revived in our Christian walk and reminded of our first love.