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The Pope

divya

Well-Known Member
Catholics participate in intercession all the time. Not just with the pope, but with the Saints and each other. I see people on this forum asking for prayers all the time.

There is prayer and then there is the intercessory work of Jesus Christ. This is significant, as Christians (including Catholics) believe that Christ intercedes in heaven on our behalf according to the Bible, when we repent to Him or ask for His mercy. However, Catholics may confess to those other than Christ and those are believed to be able intercede in the manner than Christ does. The problem then is the diminishing of Christ as our Savior.

To be more clear, what then is the significance of Christ's coming to die on the cross for us and returning to heaven where He intercedes for us if in fact the priest and pope may do the same? For example, in the article posted, Pope Benedict is claimed that Pope John Paul is in heaven interceding on behalf of humans. This is against Scripture. This was and is Christ's purpose. Jesus said that He is the way, the truth and the light. No one comes unto the Father but by Him.

That's is where Catholic doctrine exalts the Pope (and even priests) before Christ, diminishing His sacrifice for us.
 
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PaperClip

New Member
When he was in DC last week, one woman on the news called him Jesus on Earth

I turned off the TV which I know was wrong cuz Jesus was born of a woman and wasnt without sin and that someone's belief system.. but still.. my mind cant comprehend the Catholics worshiping him

Jesus was born of a woman and He lived a sinless life and He arose from the dead. That sets Him apart from ANY and EVERY other religion, spirituality, god, deity, it, thing that dares attempt to call him/her/itself the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.
 

PaperClip

New Member
Catholics participate in intercession all the time. Not just with the pope, but with the Saints and each other. I see people on this forum asking for prayers all the time.

True. We all can intercede for one another.

And the Bible says that Jesus Christ intercedes for us (Hebrews 7).
 

gone_fishing

New Member
I have to acknowledge that while it was significant that a religouis leader
gave a Universal World Wide message about Christ and Unity & that he acknowledged the sexual abuse front and center...& I must give him props for this.....

After all.....
when do we Americans..the world... ever really recognize Christ on such a super star status level as the Pope message is in symbol of?
There were rap stars and American Idols,red carpet ,the President and et al...celebrating the message of God ..as embodied by the Pope.
and that's the whole issue..right there for me

My heart is troubled...because kissing his ring and bowing down to this man.....alienated me from the message..and is in direct conflict with Biblical teachings..and I have to question this...

Jesus ..
when his disciples complained about people casting out demons in HIS name ..HE said it himself.... whoever is with us ..is for us.....Is it possible as none of us are perfect...well given the good the Pope did ...why can't I reconcile essentially... the physical & ritualistic worshipping of this man who is holy...but NOT Christ.
It being an established tradition in the Catholic religion,beauracy, and hierarchy does not cut it for me.

I watched the mass yesterday and my heart was troubled. I wanted to post about it but after the controversy I started with the molestation in the church thread, I didn't want to go there. :nono:
 

divya

Well-Known Member
Pope John Paul

It is good to renew and reaffirm this faith at a moment when it might be weakening, losing something of its completeness or entering into an area of shadow and silence, threatened as it is by the negative elements of the above-mentioned crisis. For the Sacrament of Confession is indeed being undermined, on the one hand by the obscuring of the moral and religious conscience, the lessening of a sense of sin, the distortion of the concept of repentance, and the lack of effort to live an authentically Christian life. And on the other hand it is being undermined by the sometimes widespread idea that one can obtain forgiveness directly from God, even in an habitual way, without approaching the Sacrament of reconciliation. A further negative influence is the routine of a sacramental practice sometimes lacking in fervor and real spontaneity, deriving perhaps from a mistaken and distorted idea of the effects of the Sacrament.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2RECON.HTM

_______________________________



Virgin Mary

3) Therefore, God chose to use Mary for the purpose of redeeming mankind. She willed the Sacrifice on Calvary just as we will that someone ought to be redeemed or to repent, through prayer. We can merit graces given to ourselves or others by means of our own sufferings and penances (another aspect of this). There is such a thing as redemptive suffering, and we all can participate in that; how much more, the blessed Virgin Mary, being sinless and not heir to even original sin?

15)Likewise, God chooses to distribute all graces through Mary. She is our Advocate and Supreme Intercessor, because she is so holy, and is the Mother of God. How is that in any way unbiblical? It is not!
http://saint-joseph-detroit.org/Articles/Armstrong/Mary3.html



_____________________________________________________



The Bible Teaches:

1 Tim 2:5-- For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus;

1 John 2:1-- My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any
man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Revelation 5:9
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Isaiah 60:16
16Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
 
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divya

Well-Known Member
I watched the mass yesterday and my heart was troubled. I wanted to post about it but after the controversy I started with the molestation in the church thread, I didn't want to go there. :nono:

It wasn't you though...it was the responses that followed from what I read.
 

gone_fishing

New Member
It wasn't you though...it was the responses that followed from what I read.

I don't know what to think anymore. I thought it wasn't me too. I mean I thought I was asking a legitimate question but some folks really took offense so I didn't want to go there again. Everyone thinks I have an agenda. It's really frustrating.
 

divya

Well-Known Member
I don't know what to think anymore. I thought it wasn't me too. I mean I thought I was asking a legitimate question but some folks really took offense so I didn't want to go there again. Everyone thinks I have an agenda. It's really frustrating.

It is a valid question, but because some people have attacked all Catholics, some Catholics are on the defensive. It just like when someone disagrees with homosexuality and many people automatically assume that they hate and are attacking people who practice homosexuality. When in fact, many of us are able separate the sin and focus on that being the issue.
 

kayte

Well-Known Member
I just want to qualify why I started the thread....

I want to recognize the miraculous and significant good that has been faciltated by the Pope's visit ..I listened to his message which was delivered with sensitivity and humility

how impressive a universal gathering to uplift the TEACHINGS OF CHRIST..irregardless of religious orientation....ie: Shaking hands w/Jewish leader..
....and I say with love..this was never meant to be a referendum on the Catholic religion aversus the Christian religion....

Give God credit ..due praise that the Lord through this man has presented a Jesus-Humanity-Forum embraced by the world...major stars celebrities,media,program interuptions...in the name of JESUS
ALL of us should be shouting halleujah for what he did ...bringing Christ to the fore in this way
I do apologize to my Catholic sisters on the forum for voicing impatience at the Catholic office so let me take that back..

WE ALL LOVE CHRIST....and
JESUS LOVES US..it can truly be that simple..it IS that simple.
They will know we love Christ by our love
Why trip over religious political infrastructures
That's what key..GOD IS LOVE..

What troubled me....cuts across religious lines because certainly people of all spiritual affiliations either bowed or agreed /complicit in worship to this person....and equally certain there must be Catholics who do not agree with this practice..

The question..is on.....worship...kissing this man's ring....or bowing to him.......while he deserves acknowledgment and respect that is NOT the same....as worship.....I think it is wrong.....

religious leaders were brought up

if it was the Dalai Lama or
Abraham Joshua Herschel (were alive)
Ralph Abernathy
Mother Teresa
Joel Osteen
Crefelo Dollar

Wrong
the question was on
Deifying an individual called by GOD but who is NOT God
...kissing his ring..bowing down to him ...calling your Holiness
when no one desrves this but God....

NO ONE IS HOLY..no...NOT ONE says GOD
All have sinned and come short

So I see this in opposition with the 1rst and 2nd commandments and verges on idol worship....politics of Catholicsim/Christianity Judaism etc ...aside

Why didn't the Pope say himself.

STOP
Do not worship me........
I am only a man
Worship Christ your Lord

now THAT would have been a message no one would forget
 
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Country gal

Well-Known Member
I don't believe that I ever asserted that you blindly followed anything. However, my question was whether you have read the doctrine/history. It's extensive, which is the reason for my question. In my opinion, just because someone has not read all the doctrine does not mean that they blindly follow either. Seems like you are very much on the defensive, which is understood, especially considering the past couple days on the forum.

Your statement was Please be Honest as if I was not being honest. Re read what you wrote. It may seem as if I am being on the defensive. I am probably just tired of disputing the same old myths and misconceptions.

"When the enemy wishes to spoil God's family, he employs two great means: illusions and misunderstandings..." --Louisa Jaques, Jerusalem, 1939
 

Country gal

Well-Known Member
I just want to qualify why I started the thread....

I want to recognize the miraculous and significant good that has been faciltated by the Pope's visit ..I listened to his message which was delivered with sensitivity and humility

how impressive a universal gathering to uplift the TEACHINGS OF CHRIST..irregardless of religious orientation....ie: Shaking hands w/Jewish leader..
....and I say with love..this was never meant to be a referendum on the Catholic religion aversus the Christian religion....

Give God credit ..due praise that the Lord through this man has presented a Jesus-Humanity-Forum embraced by the world...major stars celebrities,media,program interuptions...in the name of JESUS
ALL of us should be shouting halleujah for what he did ...bringing Christ to the fore in this way
I do apologize to my Catholic sisters on the forum for voicing impatience at the Catholic office so let me take that back..

WE ALL LOVE CHRIST....and
JESUS LOVES US..it can truly be that simple..it IS that simple.
They will know we love Christ by our love
Why trip over religious political infrastructures
That's what key..GOD IS LOVE..

What troubled me....cuts across religious lines because certainly people of all spiritual affiliations either bowed or agreed /complicit in worship to this person....and equally certain there must be Catholics who do not agree with this practice..

The question..is on.....worship...kissing this man's ring....or bowing to him.......while he deserves acknowledgment and respect that is NOT the same....as worship.....I think it is wrong.....

religious leaders were brought up

if it was the Dalai Lama or
Abraham Joshua Herschel (were alive)
Ralph Abernathy
Mother Teresa
Joel Osteen
Crefelo Dollar

Wrong
the question was on
Deifying an individual called by GOD but who is NOT God
...kissing his ring..bowing down to him ...calling your Holiness
when no one desrves this but God....

NO ONE IS HOLY..no...NOT ONE says GOD
All have sinned and come short

So I see this in opposition with the 1rst and 2nd commandments and verges on idol worship....politics of Catholicsim/Christianity Judaism etc ...aside

Why didn't the Pope say himself.

STOP
Do not worship me........
I am only a man
Worship Christ your Lord

now THAT would have been a message no one would forget

The Pope also recognizes that no matter how much he will let people know he is just a man some will still put him a pedistal (sp). My priest stated it really well during our homily. The Pope is a man just like you and I. He puts on his pants just like you or I. He said the Pope was very shy, intellectual. The pope seems appreciative of the support for his visit but I didn't get the sense in watching him that he was saying all praise the king. His message was very powerful for catholics and non catholics. I love his message, When you have hope you live differently.

My grandmother is from the old school, she would kiss his ring. I ain't kissing his ring but I would show the man respect. I don't care for Bush but if I was in his presence I would show respect to the President of our great nation.
 

Keen

Well-Known Member
There is prayer and then there is the intercessory work of Jesus Christ. This is significant, as Christians (including Catholics) believe that Christ intercedes in heaven on our behalf according to the Bible, when we repent to Him or ask for His mercy. However, Catholics may confess to those other than Christ and those are believed to be able intercede in the manner than Christ does. The problem then is the diminishing of Christ as our Savior.

To be more clear, what then is the significance of Christ's coming to die on the cross for us and returning to heaven where He intercedes for us if in fact the priest and pope may do the same? For example, in the article posted, Pope Benedict is claimed that Pope John Paul is in heaven interceding on behalf of humans. This is against Scripture. This was and is Christ's purpose. Jesus said that He is the way, the truth and the light. No one comes unto the Father but by Him.

That's is where Catholic doctrine exalts the Pope (and even priests) before Christ, diminishing His sacrifice for us.

Then why does protestants ask each other to pray for them? Catholics believes that Jesus is the only way as far as I know. I have not found any doctrine that says otherwise. Our "Act of Contrition" has no reference to the Pope.
 

PaperClip

New Member
Then why does protestants ask each other to pray for them? Catholics believes that Jesus is the only way as far as I know. I have not found any doctrine that says otherwise. Our "Act of Contrition" has no reference to the Pope.

Because the Bible instructs us to: James 5:13-16

"Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.


Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

Maybe the last verse "Confess your faults...." justifies the Roman Catholic practice of the priest and confessional. But the difference is, I speculate out loud, is that when the priest says "do this, say this prayer 5 times, etc." and that supposedly absolves the sinful acts is what seems to contradict with the belief that ONLY confession and repentence to the Lord Jesus Christ can completely absolve anyone from sin.

Disclaimer: I am in NO WAY knowledgeable about Roman Catholicism. I am merely speculating on what I have picked up in pieces and some readings and I attended a mass once for a college assignment. I welcome teaching and correction directed IN LOVE.
 

kayte

Well-Known Member
The Pope also recognizes that no matter how much he will let people know he is just a man some will still put him a pedistal (sp). My priest stated it really well during our homily. The Pope is a man just like you and I. He puts on his pants just like you or I. He said the Pope was very shy, intellectual. The pope seems appreciative of the support for his visit but I didn't get the sense in watching him that he was saying all praise the king. His message was very powerful for catholics and non catholics. I love his message, When you have hope you live differently.

My grandmother is from the old school, she would kiss his ring. I ain't kissing his ring but I would show the man respect. I don't care for Bush but if I was in his presence I would show respect to the President of our great nation.
__________________


I hear you...and that's what Imeant a lot of people regardless of their
religious background idolize him....and as also some Catholics with you as example........... would Not kiss his ring or bow

I stated very specifically...that's what was disturbing for,me
Kissing his ring.....bowing to him..as a physical form of worship
and I also prefaced both posts by saying
the Pope not only deseves respect but Kudos in what he did as directed by God unifying many of us worldwide with the message of God's peace
Will all due respect... that however was never the issue

I agree with what you say in being human.. he puts on his pants ..he cries ....is shy...behind closed doors.well,sure
how amazing that would be since he clearly has the power to do this to say Do not worship me...I am a man.. as a public action

Imagine how powerful that would be if he really feels strongly as it's inidicated below...or if it's just rhetoric
"The Pope also recognizes that no matter how much he will let people know he is just a man some will still put him a pedistal ([/B]

but his allowing these worship rituals ....to me...is not about respect or disrespect ...but of Ego..and not about GOD
imho
 
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didirose

Active Member
Here's a quote that best expresses the view on this matter. Other than that view it how you wish:yawn::

When I was first ordained a Catholic priest, it was the custom to kiss the bishop's ring while genuflecting on the left knee. This was the Catholic custom in the U.S.A. and Europe. Since the Second Vatican Council, this custom has changed. Bishops no longer expect anyone to kiss their ring. The origin of kissing the ring comes from the time when bishops were governors of territories. Catholic bishops are no longer temporal magistrates. It is expected that you shake his hand politely. That means that if he is a higher rank than you, you wait for him to extend his hand. Some Catholics, especially from southern Europe, will kiss the hand of a priest. It is a local custom. It is not the custom in the United States. There are good reasons to abandon the custom of kissing rings. One reason is an obvious health reason. It is simply not hygienic. Secondly, it detracts from the spirit of humility. Priests, Bishops and the Pope are servants. The Pope is a special case. As Catholics we see him as the Vicar of Christ on earth. It seems that, for a priest at least, it is still proper to genuflect on the right knee and kiss the Holy Father's hand or ring - whichever he extends. This also depends on the individual Pope. Before an audience with the Holy Father, people are directed to follow a certain protocol. I have not yet heard what the present Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, has established as the proper protocol during private audiences. Certain other Christians seem to take offence at Catholic customs. We Catholics do not ask others to follow our customs. Quoting Holy Scripture inappropriately does nothing to advance knowledge and respect. We are not about to change and we do not expect other Christians to change their customs. Please be aware that the New Testament was compiled by the Catholic Church. Do you think that the Church would include a book that condemned it? We Americans are known, or should be known, for our respect of all people.

http://www.wikihow.com/Discussion:Address-Catholic-Clergy
 

divya

Well-Known Member
Your statement was Please be Honest as if I was not being honest. Re read what you wrote. It may seem as if I am being on the defensive. I am probably just tired of disputing the same old myths and misconceptions.

"When the enemy wishes to spoil God's family, he employs two great means: illusions and misunderstandings..." --Louisa Jaques, Jerusalem, 1939

Well, that's fine. However, different people have different experiences. Do understand that in your statements, you are also dismissing the beliefs of other Catholics. Doing so in itself, creates misconceptions, illusions and misunderstandings. I'm sorry but there is absolutely nothing to spoil here as result has already taken place.
 
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kayte

Well-Known Member
When I was first ordained a Catholic priest, it was the custom to kiss the bishop's ring while genuflecting on the left knee. This was the Catholic custom in the U.S.A. and Europe. Since the Second Vatican Council, this custom has changed. Bishops no longer expect anyone to kiss their ring. The origin of kissing the ring comes from the time when bishops were governors of territories. Catholic bishops are no longer temporal magistrates. It is expected that you shake his hand politely. That means that if he is a higher rank than you, you wait for him to extend his hand. Some Catholics, especially from southern Europe, will kiss the hand of a priest. It is a local custom. It is not the custom in the United States. There are good reasons to abandon the custom of kissing rings. One reason is an obvious health reason. It is simply not hygienic. Secondly, it detracts from the spirit of humility. Priests, Bishops and the Pope are servants. The Pope is a special case. As Catholics we see him as the Vicar of Christ on earth. It seems that, for a priest at least, it is still proper to genuflect on the right knee and kiss the Holy Father's hand or ring - whichever he extends. This also depends on the individual Pope. Before an audience with the Holy Father, people are directed to follow a certain protocol. I have not yet heard what the present Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, has established as the proper protocol during private audiences. Certain other Christians seem to take offence at Catholic customs. We Catholics do not ask others to follow our customs. Quoting Holy Scripture inappropriately does nothing to advance knowledge and respect. We are not about to change and we do not expect other Christians to change their customs. Please be aware that the New Testament was compiled by the Catholic Church. Do you think that the Church would include a book that condemned it? We Americans are known, or should be known, for our respect of all people.


Thank you for sharing this article and directly on topic.

The misquoting scripture is an unfair generalization.Surely there are bilblical references that are not misquoted. That's a generic defence anyone can make about any situation..


Since this person is citing the Catholics as sole responsbilbity in construct of the New Testament ..may I offer a quote from Romans...it's no a misquote and it is entirely in context


Romans 3:10 >>

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

King James Bible
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
American King James Version
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
American Standard Version
as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Bible in Basic English
As it is said in the holy Writings, There is not one who does righteousness;
Douay-Rheims Bible
As it is written: There is not any man just.
Darby Bible Translation
according as it is written, There is not a righteous man, not even one;
English Revised Version
as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
as Scripture says, "Not one person has God's approval.
Weymouth New Testament
Thus it stands written, "There is not one righteous man.
Webster's Bible Translation
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: World English Bible
As it is written, "There is no one righteous; no, not one


Perceived as THE...Vicar of Christ?....Special case? The Holy Father
There is NO special case ..he is a man..a human being under the jurisdiction of God's principles as set in the New Testament..

There is ONE Holy Father...and that is the Creator.The spirit of humility does not negate respect due a person of character and of God. However...there is proper respect due ...and there is worship.

Since every individual Pope has autonomy..the power to create personal policy......certainly the power to preempt television stations and has the President of the USA holding receptions...

I maintain...this Pope could impart a powerful message..by refusing to allow the practice of human worship and to allow has notrhing to do with respect..it is EGO or SELF.The fact that other Catholics take offense while some Chrisitians/other Protestants etc.... follow the practice means it is not neccesarily as much religious politic....as populist...

And.. using the word genuflecting to spin semantically.....the obvious.... is just more rhetoric.


genuflect: Definition and Much More from Answers.comgenuflect ( ) intr.v. , -flected , -flecting , -flects . To bend the knee or touch one knee to the floor or ground, as in worship.





[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+2]WORSHIP THE RIGHT GOD[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The first commandment is "Worship no god but me" (Exodus 20:3). That looks easy enough. When was the last time you were seriously tempted to worship Baal or to offer incense to Jupiter or to drink a toast to Bacchus or to sacrifice a lamb to Zeus? Where have all the idols gone? Has the great Jehovah licked all his competition? Do people need only nine commandments nowadays[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]To worship any god other than the one true God leads to spiritual famine and finally to slavery. No substitute god is big enough to sustain the commitment of your life. The pages of history are littered with sad tales of victims who gave first-class loyalty to second-class causes that failed them.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Whatever you worship, regardless of its name, is your god. To worship anything is to treat it as being the greatest thing in your life, the center around which the rest of your interests revolve.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Bible reminds you again and again that God is a jealous God, who will not share your affection with rivals (Exodus 34:14; Deuteronomy 4:24; 5-9; Joshua 24:19). [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Substitute gods bear many names.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Choose you this day whom you will serve, whether the true and living God of your ancestors or the gods of self, sex, and security, the gods of those in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord (Joshua 24:15).[/FONT]​

At the end of the day....I think the process of the initial question has led me to this.....
As for me and my house we will serve the Lord
 

Caramela

New Member
Oh my.... this thread is interesting. I have nothing new to add. I don't agree with exhaulting the Pope. He is not the head of the church, Christ is.
 

kayte

Well-Known Member
Oh my.... this thread is interesting. I have nothing new to add. I don't agree with exhaulting the Pope. He is not the head of the church, Christ is.
__________________
"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get - only what you are expecting to give - which is everything." Katharine Hepburn

:ot: so I'm hijacking the thread momentarily..

WHY OH WHY Caramela..did you have to have this particular love quote as your signature :) LOL! this is the second day in a row I saw that! It stopped me yesterday as I was up all night and decided to blow off the primary relationship because of what I'm not getting.... and today preparing to do it all over again...I see that quote but this time..I learn its origin &...it's from another Kate .....Kayte

gotta to re-think things now :look:
sigh
 

Caramela

New Member
:ot: so I'm hijacking the thread momentarily..

WHY OH WHY Caramela..did you have to have this particular love quote as your signature :) LOL! this is the second day in a row I saw that! It stopped me yesterday as I was up all night and decided to blow off the primary relationship because of what I'm not getting.... and today preparing to do it all over again...I see that quote but this time..I learn its origin &...it's from another Kate .....Kayte

gotta to re-think things now :look:
sigh

Awww :) Good luck :yep:
 

Trini"T"

New Member
Catholics participate in intercession all the time. Not just with the pope, but with the Saints and each other. I see people on this forum asking for prayers all the time.

I think the difference is that they are asking DEAD people to intercede for them. Why would the current pope pray for the DEAD pope to intercede for him?

I saw a bit of the coverage on NY1, these Catholic school girls were singing a song dedicated to the pope while waiting to see him and they referred to him as the "light of the world" and "Christ on earth" :nono:

Like Countrygal was saying, I would definitely show respect but I can't bring myself to pay that much reverence to a human being and that goes for any other "celebrities"...I just can't get hype over them.
 

didirose

Active Member
KayteHere is the whole meaning of genuflect. There are many different ways people genuflect throughout mass in the catholic church. Specifically in both worship and respect. I would thing during the early times of the church this was done many times to acknowledge respect to another person but today it not part of are culture at all. Which probably makes it look very strange to those who were watching the scene with the pope:

Main Entry: gen·u·flect
Function: intransitive verb
Pronunciation: 'jen-y&-"flekt
Etymology: Late Latin genuflectere, from Latin genu knee + flectere to bend -- more at KNEE
1 a : to bend the knee b : to touch the knee to the floor or ground especially in worship
2 : to be servilely obedient or respectful
- gen·u·flec·tion/"jen-y&-'flek-sh&n/ noun
 

didirose

Active Member
Vicar is used as an institutional term (in reference to the church) not to equate Christ.:nono:



Catechism on "Vicar of Christ":

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."[402] "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."[403]

894 "The bishops, as vicars and legates of Christ, govern the particular Churches assigned to them by their counsels, exhortations, and example, but over and above that also by the authority and sacred power" which indeed they ought to exercise so as to edify, in the spirit of service which is that of their Master.[426]

From the Glossary at the back of the Catechism:
Vicar of Christ: A title given to St. Peter, head of the Twelve Apostles and to his successors;, the Popes; "vicar" means one who stands in for or acts for another.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=137781
 

Crackers Phinn

Either A Blessing Or A Lesson.
I visited Italy about 6 years ago including Rome and Vatican City. I had very definite opinions on Catholicism before traveling and what I had discounted in the practice is how much Italian culture influences the religion.

I'm not going to lie, I did believe that Catholics worshipped the pope and saints. But when I got there and learned alot of the history of the culture independent of the religion, the 'oddities' such as kissing the popes ring and the rationale of asking the saints to forward on prayers makes sense.

Had this country been founded by Italian slave owners, I think there would be a different slant on this conversation.
 

kayte

Well-Known Member
genuflect: Definition and Much More from Answers.comgenuflect ( ) intr.v. , -flected , -flecting , -flects . To bend the knee or touch one knee to the floor or ground, as in worship.

Main Entry: gen·u·flect
Function: intransitive verb
Pronunciation: 'jen-y&-"flekt
Etymology: Late Latin genuflectere, from Latin genu knee + flectere to bend -- more at KNEE
1 a : to bend the knee b : to touch the knee to the floor or ground especially in worship
2 : to be servilely obedient or respectful
- gen·u·flec·tion/"jen-y&-'flek-sh&n/ noun

We are offerring definitons that both say the same thing! My point was that priest who wrote that narrative..hides nothing by not using the word worship...substituting.... genuflect... because essentialy bowing to him and kissing his ring amonts to that
Worshipping am an instread of Christ....
I maintain it's more wrong

Saying it's/was a means to respect ,and looks strange.
I maintain, human worship is worong

(QUOTE]
I would thing during the early times of the church this was done many times to acknowledge respect to another person but today it not part of are culture at all. Which probably makes it look very strange to those who were watching the scene with the pope:
[/quote]
 

Farida

Well-Known Member
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

If you study Catholic doctrine, (in the cathecism) nowhere will you see anything about worshiping the pope, having to kiss him, call him your holiness and him being Jesus.

Now, I believe the people (not all) have set him on a pedestal and made him to be more than just a human being, and the church, I feel, has done nothing to correct this. He is only human, and when you get treated as he does and have as much power as he does, it would take a lot for you to say, "no!" I feel the Catholic church failed in this respect.

Now, as for him being a nazi youth, read up on it. He joined when it was mandatory for all boys his age.
 

divya

Well-Known Member
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

If you study Catholic doctrine, (in the cathecism) nowhere will you see anything about worshiping the pope, having to kiss him, call him your holiness and him being Jesus.

Now, I believe the people (not all) have set him on a pedestal and made him to be more than just a human being, and the church, I feel, has done nothing to correct this. He is only human, and when you get treated as he does and have as much power as he does, it would take a lot for you to say, "no!" I feel the Catholic church failed in this respect.

Now, as for him being a nazi youth, read up on it. He joined when it was mandatory for all boys his age.


What about these quotes?

Catholic Catechism, par. 882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, 'is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful.'[LG 23.] 'For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.' [LG 22; cf. CD 2,9.]


But the Bible says...
Ephesians 1:22-23 (King James Version)
22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.



Catholic Catechism, par. 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21: PL 3, 1169; De unit.: PL 4, 509-536.] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

Recent support:
6) "For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained."
Vatican II 1965

But Bible says:
Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.



Catholic Catechism, par. 891 'The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,' above all in an Ecumenical Council. [LG 25; cf. Vatican Council I: DS 3074.] When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine 'for belief as being divinely revealed,' [DV 10 # 2.] and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions 'must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.' [LG 25 # 2.] This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.


Where does the Bible teach that any man - called the pope - is infallible? Where does the Bible say that his words "extend as far as the deposit of the divine Revelation itself?"

Much more here regarding the catechism here...
http://www.romancatholicteachings.com/catholic_catechism/catechism2.html
 

didirose

Active Member
We are offerring definitons that both say the same thing! My point was that priest who wrote that narrative..hides nothing by not using the word worship...substituting.... genuflect... because essentialy bowing to him and kissing his ring amonts to that
Worshipping am an instread of Christ....
I maintain it's more wrong

Saying it's/was a means to respect ,and looks strange.
I maintain, human worship is worong

(QUOTE]
I would thing during the early times of the church this was done many times to acknowledge respect to another person but today it not part of are culture at all. Which probably makes it look very strange to those who were watching the scene with the pope:
[/QUOTE]

Know we are not saying the same thing at all because I respect many men but I've never worshiped them. That is how the people who practice it show respect to the head of the church, yet you choose to interpret how and why they do it in your own way. Catholics worship God. Genuflecting before a man is how I described it. Kneeling is done in prayer before God and may also be done out of respect as illustrated in the case of the pope. Putting up half a defintion only leads to half the truth.

And yes I said it may look strange to you because obviously you are not of the faith, and it looks strange to catholics even in this country. I've seen one religion practiced differently in reflection of a region's culture. So that is where the "strange" came from but I apologize if you only highlighted that only for sarcasm.

With that said, I'm out. If you care to you can check out catechism, with the bible for a better analysis of the catholic church. The internet also has great sources for getting the "catholic" point of view to compare with your own. There has also been multiple threads here discussing the topic.
 

divya

Well-Known Member
Then why does protestants ask each other to pray for them? Catholics believes that Jesus is the only way as far as I know. I have not found any doctrine that says otherwise. Our "Act of Contrition" has no reference to the Pope.

In my faith, we pray for CHRIST to intercede on a other person's behalf because the Bible teaches it. Romans 10:9 - Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

However, within Catholicism, the Pope and priests are "given" a role belonging to Christ. Some Protestants - from Relaxer Rehab's response - also agree that man can intercede for man.
 
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