Jouelzy - So Over the Natural Hair Community & Texture Discrimination 4c

This sounds just like me. My client (a lovely Caucasian woman) asked me why don't I go natural? Won't it just curl up? I thought maybe it would lol. So I shaved my hair off when I was pregnant with my son and waited for the big curls to come but they didn't. I couldn't understand why my hair was always dry, why even with prepooing and a bottle of conditioner it was still hard to comb and keep moisture. Since then I have more than grown to love my babykinks but prefer to texturize 1-2x per year.

SunRai Naturals said:

I'm not going to start a new thread about it but I recently posted a hair inspiration thread (Jo-Stylin) on Youtube. She is a 4b/4c very very long hair girl. The response was minimal compared to when I posted Teaundra on Youtube (curly to straight) video thread. It was even minimal compared to a recent thread about a 3b/c hair inspiration. That thread got double the responses. In my thread, I posted that Jo Stylin should have more subbies. I didn't say this in the post but I feel that the reason that she doesn't have more subscribers is texture discrimination within our own community. Someone mentioned that she stopped making hair vlogs for awhile and that may be partly why but if she was 3bc people would still be coming in droves. I can wear my real hair out and people don't have anything positive to say but when I wear a curly wig I get tons of compliments. I think that it sucks and I wish that there was more support for my hair type on this board and IRL. Not that I am looking for affirmation from others because I'm not but sometimes it does feel like we are ignored. So I appreciate this vlog from Jouelzy. I was on the fence about relaxing (not due to my hair type because I love my hair) but the properties (fine strands, low po, and tangly from root to tip). I've finally made a decision to stay natural because I do want to continue to learn how to care for and rep 4c hair.

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I see this a lot in the "post your hair right now" everyday thread. Someone with 3b 3c curls will get a million thanks for a picture of their hair in a wash and go or braids out. Someone with 4b 4 c will get a lousy 10 thanks.

I've been in the online natural hair community for almost 10 years and have definitely observed the texture discrimination over the years.

In order for someone with very tightly coiled (4B/4C) texture to get a lot of attention, likes, followers, subscribers etc their hair has to be exceptionally long and/or dense and/or intricately styled

Those with looser coils/curls can do the most basic of styles or have the shortest hair and get an overwhelming amount of love - now of course if someone with this texture happens to do intricate styles or grow longer lengths their popularity will jump leaps and bounds above those with tighter coils possessing the same skills, length, etc.

Thing is, we can't force people to admit they have this texture discrimination issue, most will get defensive and just call it a preference or say that those of us with tighter coils are just jealous or oversensitive - we just have to rock our hair with confidence and openly express our love for natural hair of all textures, especially our own. We should respectfully challenge others when they spew ignorant phrases like "good hair" "bad hair" etc but I think that just seeing more and more of our sistas rocking our hair with pride and grace will help others to see/accept the beauty we see.

I don't really think that it's a conscious thing for most people but it is real. I do think that things are getting better and those of us with tighter coils are growing to genuinely love our hair and spread that love to others who share our texture who may/may not already love their hair as well.

We are also learning to be innovative about how we take care of our hair and are no longer willing to accept the notion that to wear our hair natural means to suffer & struggle through all the while secretly wishing our hair was "more manageable" aka looser.

We are learning how to think outside of the box to make our hair healthy and manageable without resorting to relaxers, texturizers, a lifetime of weaves and wigs, or certain styles like perpetually short afros or locs (I'm referring to those like me who have resorted to the low afro and locs multiple times in the past out of desperation and frustration - this doesn't apply to those who rock these styles out of choice and rock them beautifully).

ronie said:

Someone with 4b 4 c will get a lousy 10 thanks.

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If that

I just wanted to say there are a LOT of black women with 3c and loose 4a hair. Since everyone has been going natural I've noticed that a lot of us have loose curl patterns. I'm starting to think 4b hair isn't as common as a thought

SophieDulce said:

I just wanted to say there are a LOT of black women with 3c and loose 4a hair. Since everyone has been going natural I've noticed that a lot of us have loose curl patterns. I'm starting to think 4b hair isn't as common as a thought

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I am 4b and have noticed the same thing. 80% of the women in my personal circle have gone natural in the past 5 years and not a 4b among them. I was very surprised.

SophieDulce said:

I just wanted to say there are a LOT of black women with 3c and loose 4a hair. Since everyone has been going natural I've noticed that a lot of us have loose curl patterns. I'm starting to think 4b hair isn't as common as a thought

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I've often wondered if this were true or could it be that the ones with tighter coils are the ones least likely to go natural in the first place? ... I mean when people grow up hearing that they "need" a relaxer" because their hair is too nappy it has a big impact, just like when others hear they have "soft" or "good" hair, they may be more inclined to go natural.

I can't count how many times I've read stories of new naturals rejoicing at the sight/feel of their curly new growth while transitioning and all the "pretty shiny coils" that they never knew they had and how this discovery made them so excited to start their natural journey

Part of me wonders if these people would have continued with their transition or even decided to go through with the big chop if what they saw/felt were tighter coils that were not shiny or wavy or "soft"? How many women discover that they do not have "good hair" and choose to go back to the chemicals or what about those who know all along they they have tighter coils and therefore automatically dismiss the idea of going natural in the fist place?

ETA: Just wanted to add that even though I have been natural for a long time, meeting someone with coils that are as tight/small as mine is more of a rare occurrence than I expected ... I see a LOT of 4A size coils/curls, some 3C & some 4B - I also see cottony and silky versions of these 3 main ones ... but this could be because 4B/4C is indeed a less common hair type or because those with my hair type are not going/staying natural for various reasons

CocoGlow said:

I've often wondered if this were true or could it be that the ones with tighter coils are the ones least likely to go natural in the first place? ... I mean when people grow up hearing that they "need" a relaxer" because their hair is too nappy it has a big impact, just like when others hear they have "soft" or "good" hair, they may be more inclined to go natural. I can't count how many times I've read stories of new naturals rejoicing at the sight/feel of their curly new growth while transitioning and all the "pretty shiny coils" that they never knew they had and how this discovery made them so excited to start their natural journey Part of me wonders if these people would have continued with their transition or even decided to go through with the big chop if what they saw/felt were tighter coils that were not shiny or wavy or "soft"? How many women discover that they do not have "good hair" and choose to go back to the chemicals or what about those who know all along they they have tighter coils and therefore automatically dismiss the idea of going natural in the fist place?

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I don't know that could be something though. I will say my hair only looks shiny and "soft" with product. So I'm thinking maybe it's been the amount of products catering to our hair ????? Almost all my friends are natural and I think only 2 have true 4b hair and their hair is the longest.

Over the past few years I've noticed fewer and fewer 4b/c Youtubers in general. The more popular one, KimmayTube received a lot of shade when she was more active. I constantly read, "her hair is too thin", "she's condescending", etc. I never heard this about thin haired condescending 3c-ers. I wonder if the general lack of popularity is driving some away from YT.

In general, I never really see many women with natural 4 type hair. Growing up if I did, it was usually on an older women with a TWA or someone who is locked. My mother is 4b and either straightened her hair until she locked it 16 years ago or so. She keeps it in a bob length because "its too nappy to wear it long". SophieDulce - my mother is the only women on that side of the family with 4b hair. Everyone else is 3b - 4a.

I always thought the hair typing was kind of stupid. Just because you have a certain size curl doesn't mean your hair is going to act the same as someone with the same size curl.

SophieDulce said:

I just wanted to say there are a LOT of black women with 3c and loose 4a hair. Since everyone has been going natural I've noticed that a lot of us have loose curl patterns. I'm starting to think 4b hair isn't as common as a thought

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Unfortunately, I would disagree with this, and correct it to say that there are a lot of Black women who choose to wear their natural hair with 3c and loose 4a hair. What I have seen is that many women will attempt to go natural, but once they figure out (as that famous meme says) that they don't have Tracy Ellis Ross' hair, or can't make their hair look like that without a lot of effort, they go right back to relaxers and weaves. Outside of this LHCF bubble, the overwhelming majority of Black women still wear relaxers, weaves or wigs, and there is a reason for that. Most women do not want to deal with the work that type 4 hair takes, especially for the (lack of) appreciation others give it over looser textures. Even Jouelzy--the YouTuber at the heart of this thread and creator of that video--has resorted to wearing wigs and weaves the majority of the time instead of growing and wearing her own hair.

I've seen that Tracie Ellis Ross meme in action at work.
A relaxed co-worker decided to BC. Two months later she wore wigs exclusively. She relaxed at month 5. The reasons: Her 4B texture wasn't “nice". It is "hard" & her 12yo son told her he was ashamed of her. smh...my people :'(

Outside of the natural hair Mecca & Medina, (metro NYC & LA) the black people I've seen with 4B wear locs, twist/braid extensions or hair pieces.

Heat-trained naturals are minors & women over 60 in my area.

Sent from my SGH-T599N using LHCF

This is all so true.

Lots of 4b+ will weave it up so its a goid bet many of us really are super coiled. Most folk are not lhcf experts and cant tell the diff. The 3c extension texture has gotten so good folks are fooled into thinking its real at times. It happens to me when I decide to wear crochets. Fools sisters all the time and I get many compliments on such such "great hair" when in crochet PS mode . Nobody curr when I am contentedly rocking my 4x fro

koolkittychick said:

. Even Jouelzy--the YouTuber at the heart of this thread and creator of that video--has resorted to wearing wigs and weaves the majority of the time instead of growing and wearing her own hair.

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This!!!! I Lowkey things she don't really like her hair.. I mean dang let us know u trying to grow it out using wigs or something.. Honestly she makes me not like her hair

I think Jo-stylin doesn't have many subbies due to her video quality. While I adore her hair I can't look at a poor video and the vids seemed slightly boring as well.

DarkJoy said:

Yes, I like gritty and to the point but her video was... Off putting. She is right tho. 2 years ago I couldn't find truly nappy vloggers. All the touted gurus were type 3s. It's gotten much better this last 12 months and I am mighty grateful

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I'm relaxed and have a hard time finding 4's stretch or transition! I am 4a.

what is 4c? Never understood the addition. 4a = tightest curls and 4B = kinky with no curls, so what is 4c for?

Kurlee said:

what is 4c? Never understood the addition. 4a = tightest curls and 4B = kinky with no curls, so what is 4c for?

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It's not 4A or 4B. If you don't have 4C hair, it's hard for you to understand. I'm 4C.

Kurlee

Kurlee said:

what is 4c? Never understood the addition. 4a = tightest curls and 4B = kinky with no curls, so what is 4c for?

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4b's can have curls but they are just smaller than 4a curls. 4b curls are more pen spring size. 4a would be a bit larger than that. I am 4b.

Kurlee said:

what is 4c? Never understood the addition. 4a = tightest curls and 4B = kinky with no curls, so what is 4c for?

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All type 4's have curls/coils and waves, the 4b's have more frizz surrounding that pattern than 4a, and more frizz on 4c than 4b causing the hair to appear as though there is no pattern when shrunken, combed or brushed. Sent from my iPad using LHCF

Kurlee said:

what is 4c? Never understood the addition. 4a = tightest curls and 4B = kinky with no curls, so what is 4c for?

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Me either. At first I thought people where saying it jokingly but then that term stuck after a while.

Some people say 4c is cottony. It has managed to gain currency as a real term. (all the other numbers of hair under Andre Walker system had 3 letters except 4 for some strange reason) I sometimes use 4d to describe my hair because it dreads so easily. I know that isn't a real term but hopefully I will be able to find some hair-twins by using it.

CocoGlow said:

Thing is, we can't force people to admit they have this texture discrimination issue, most will get defensive and just call it a preference or say that those of us with tighter coils are just jealous or oversensitive

I don't really think that it's a conscious thing for most people but it is real.

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I do think the unconscious aspect of the problem is a key piece here. I think there are natural women (maybe a lot, maybe not) who are telling the world how much they love all hair textures, but their youtube and instagram follows tell a different story. It isn't socially acceptable to admit that you prefer/wish you had more caucasian features, but plenty of women still do, even if they'd never ever say it.

There's a girl who says her sunscreen is for her health, but deep down just doesn't want to get darker. There's a girl who swears her four hour max hydration method is for healthy hair, but really she just wants curls. Are these people the majority? Of course not. Is wearing sunscreen or doing the MHM a bad thing? Of course not. But our posts and likes and 'preferences' (both real and defensive) don't exist in a vacuum - they intersect with an ongoing societal discussion about what's acceptable and the message rings loud and clear.

now don't yell at me

Kurlee said:

what is 4c? Never understood the addition. 4a = tightest curls and 4B = kinky with no curls, so what is 4c for?

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Basically what used to be 4b is now 4c and what used to be 4a is now 4b.

A few years back 4a was classified differently than what it is now. In my opinion.

HairBarbie, the system is forever changing. Type 4 is simply the kinkier on the spectrum, I think all of the little letters cause an unnecessary divide and stops people from trying techniques that may work for their hair as well as others all because they may not be "4a" or "4b," or "4c."

Dilettante said:

I do think the unconscious aspect of the problem is a key piece here. I think there are natural women (maybe a lot, maybe not) who are telling the world how much they love all hair textures, but their youtube and instagram follows tell a different story. It isn't socially acceptable to admit that you prefer/wish you had more caucasian features, but plenty of women still do, even if they'd never ever say it.

There's a girl who says her sunscreen is for her health, but deep down just doesn't want to get darker. There's a girl who swears her four hour max hydration method is for healthy hair, but really she just wants curls. Are these people the majority? Of course not. Is wearing sunscreen or doing the MHM a bad thing? Of course not. But our posts and likes and 'preferences' (both real and defensive) don't exist in a vacuum - they intersect with an ongoing societal discussion about what's acceptable and the message rings loud and clear.

now don't yell at me

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Dilettante

You're right, so many people make excuses for the things they do so that they can benefit from certain side effects under the guise of doing something healthy- like what you mentioned about some people using sunscreen so that they won't get any darker not necessarily for sun protection.

What is funny about the Max Hydration Method is that it can only bring out the coils or curls that you naturally have (and we all have curls/coils or waves unless we have Type 1 hair). So one cannot "get curls" with it if they didn't already have curls to begin with. Defined or clumped coils/curls are a side-effect of the hydration and a great way to gauge your level of hydration (starts at the ends and goes from root to tip once achieved).

The Afro is simply an undefined mass of those same coils/curls- a lot of us have been taught that the afro is just our natural hair texture when in reality it is what our texture looks like when not properly hydrated. We now know that the afro, like twists or braids is a style choice, not a texture. We can be just as proud of our natural hair with a piked out & patted down afro, a twist-out/braid-out/bantu knot-out/roller-set (which produces a different curl/wave pattern than our natural pattern), a stretched blow-out look from using african threading or a blow dryer, or a defined wash n go. Neither one is more "natural" than the other or implies more self-love or self-hate.

Naturalistas have been molding our hair into "curls & waves" for years with twist-outs/braid-outs because they are beautiful styles and because they allow us to stretch our hair - no one ever claimed this was a from of self-hate or a subconscious attempt to make our hair something it is not. So if someone jumps on the MHM bandwagon with the intentions of bringing out or defining their natural coils/curls as opposed to their undefined (read: tangled) afro, that is not the same as wearing sunscreen so that you won't get darker. It is simply hydrating your hair with one of the side-effects being a healthier way to wear our hair in it's shrunken state without worrying about tangles & single strand knots (the clumped coils/curls no longer interweave & wrap around each other). We are still free to stretch our hair with twists, braids, etc but those styles are now just another styling choice not a mandatory step after washing.

I personally love afros and other natural styles, but if another sistah does the MHM and only chooses to wear her hair in a defined wash n go, now that she can, that does not make her someone who desires more caucasian features. Her teeny tiny 4B or 4C coils will never make her look closer to "white" no matter if they are defined from root to tip. The big round undefined Afro has been associated with "blackness" for so long and as gorgeous and unique as it is - it is no more "black" than a defined wash n go. In fact, the more hydrated her 4B or 4C hair becomes, the more she would actually have to comb or pik those coils out to achieve the undefined Afro cloud - how is that more "natural"?

I know this is a little (OK a LOT ) off topic & long-winded but I wanted to clear that up because I think a lot of people have misconceptions about the MHM and the intentions of those who do it.

HairBarbie said:

Basically what used to be 4b is now 4c and what used to be 4a is now 4b.

A few years back 4a was classified differently than what it is now. In my opinion.

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tinkat said:

Me either. At first I thought people where saying it jokingly but then that term stuck after a while.

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I just think it's extra. Simplicity is necessary. All the minutia is just exhausting.

kikisf said:

Some people say 4c is cottony. It has managed to gain currency as a real term. (all the other numbers of hair under Andre Walker system had 3 letters except 4 for some strange reason) I sometimes use 4d to describe my hair because it dreads so easily. I know that isn't a real term but hopefully I will be able to find some hair-twins by using it.

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There was no 3c either in Andre's original system.

Ogoma said:

There was no 3c either in Andre's original system.

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Exactly! Originally the 3C category did not exist and those who felt that their curls were smaller than 3B but larger than 4A felt that they needed to add another category. Some people felt that they were being tedious and that we should leave the system as is, but eventually it was accepted because it makes sense. No one even questions it today and many do not even know that it was not a part of the original system.

What I want to know is: Why is there sooooo much resistance to accepting the 4C category? The backlash seems to be a bit extra in my opinion and it makes me think there is something more to it.

Also, why should we act like the original hair typing system created by some random old school hairstylist (famous for doing Oprah's hair) is the end all be all authority on hair types and that it should never be questioned or amended?

Honestly his system only takes into consideration curl/coil size & nothing else - but there are so many other important factors involved with our hair (density, strand thickness, porosity, texture: cottony/silky, etc,etc) - so why are we so quick to hold on to the original system?

Even if you think it's an unnecessary category or not "real", is it hurting anybody?