Are Type 4 Naturals Ignored?

[Alma Petra]

The majority of my hair is not silky and so I get sheen and not shine. Stretching does nothing for my sheen/shine factor unless it is with heat and bone straight.

This is very interesting. What about combing? As in combing to bun for example? Does it change the shine/sheen factor?

 

[Alma Petra]

ITA. A WnG (which I wear my hair in 95% of the time) is not the gold standard for natural type 4 hair (and I'm only referring to the curl diameter, not texture, density, porosity, etc.). My 4b/c very dense kinky-haired daughter will likely never have a WnG on her natural hair that looks like mine with my low-density, kinky 4a hair. But she will be able to do beautiful twists and twist-outs that honestly don't look very good on my hair. And if her hair were less dense, I would style amazing pony puffs more often. Honestly I don't find the curl pattern to be a challenge with her hair at all--for me it's the density (her hair is just so thick that I need to be more creative with her style repertoire because I'm used to my lower-density hair).

@Alma Petra, based on your curl diameter alone (which is really all the type system originally focused on), you're a type 3 (3C maybe, but that wasn't in his original hair typing system). Type 4 has a smaller diameter curl than you have (regardless of whether the texture is silky or kinky). Unless you finger-curled those curls (if I take larger sections of my hair and twist them around my finger, I can form curls that size too. But it's not my actual curl size, and not the curl pattern of my strands, which is still a 4a.

Can you give me any approximate numbers on your personal understanding of the diameters of 3c to 4c curls?

There are obviously more votes on my hair being in the 3 range or at least borderline 3/4. Interesting!

 

[YvetteWithJoy]

They look type 3 as in they look big in diameter? Or based on another characteristic?

Normally my hair does not form coils, or at least not defined coils. I have to work on it a lot to make it coil up and to reduce the frizz. Since big chopping and starting experimentation (a year ago) I usually get crappy twa days and very occasional good hair days which I am typically unable to reproduce (which was totally frustrating). Only recently (one month) have I been able to get them more frequently. I'm still not very sure what exactly makes my hair curl up perfectly (definition, moisture, shine) on these occasions but I'm quickly learning.

Now I'm certain that all it takes to get my hair to its original condition is shampooing and detangling (combing) then trying to style. I should probably do this, take a photo and show you.

Yes--due to the diameter.

I could be so wrong, but I thought 4a coils are pen-spring size. Get an ink pen, open it up, pour out the contents, and that tiny spring is 4a. That is the size of my coils, and your coils are muuuuuuuuch larger than mine.

I gel my hair to the point where a lot of my 4a coils stretch and are "frozen" into zigzags, so I don't have a good picture. I'll try to find one.

 

[GGsKin]

She is this curly actress. Though I got the spelling wrong.

View attachment 426846

As I said there is unfortunately no agreement as to where each class starts and ends. Online you can sometimes find the same photo used as an example of 2 different curl patterns.

I remembee reading that thread on BHM but the photos didn't help clarify the concept to me and I'm sure that different hair strands were presented to me I would not be able to tell which was thready, which cottony or spongy or silky etc. Yet I am aware that if this can be discovered, it can help alot specially if it reflects on how the hair should be treated.

BTW I thought that your coils got stretched because of the henna. But if it's due to the way you apply your products then we'd love to learn about it. I prefer my curls a bit stretched out over tightly coiled.

I searched after . I love GOT.

You often can't tell by just looking, whether someone's hair is thready or wiry etc but the descriptions within the system are what I find to be more helpful than a number and a letter, although it does make for a quick reference. I agree with you about the pics on various charts being confusing.

I believe my coils stretching is down to a number of things. Henna (obviously) and technique are on my list. For the past 4 years, the way I apply product be it clay, conditoner or gel, is the same. I repetitively smooth product on in small sections, holding my hair taut.

I like henna and only want the deep red/burgandy colour from it. I didn't intend to stretch my coils with henna and I always pat and scrunch it in to avoid it as much as possible. It still happens and when it does, I pull back on henna and things tend to tighten back up over time and with protein treatments. I fear my hair maybe reaching its saturation level though.
My hair before henna (2015):

 

[GGsKin]

This is very interesting. What about combing? As in combing to bun for example? Does it change the shine/sheen factor?

I don't comb my hair when I style. Only when I feel I need to have a proper clear out (every 4 months or so, I don't really count). I thoroughly finger detangle my hair on wash day and I don't envy you high density ladies when it comes to this lol.

When I comb my hair, I lose definition or clumpage (excuse me if that isn't a real word) until I apply water or a water based product (although I haven't tried smoothing my Shea onto combed out hair yet). Frizzy hair means no shine/sheen factor for me.

 

[Ipanema]

I always thought wash & go meant just washing, conditioning, and letting it air-dry. Fast & simple. This thread is making me realize it is way more than that.

 

[Alma Petra]

Yes--due to the diameter.

I could be so wrong, but I thought 4a coils are pen-spring size. Get an ink pen, open it up, pour out the contents, and that tiny spring is 4a. That is the size of my coils, and your coils are muuuuuuuuch larger than mine.

I gel my hair to the point where a lot of my 4a coils stretch and are "frozen" into zigzags, so I don't have a good picture. I'll try to find one.

I don't know I thought that pen spring coils are the smallest coils around. So coils up to that size should be 4c?

I also think that we have the same size of coils. I'm sure I saw your hair coil in some of the pics, at least on the ends. But yes gel can overclump the curls and make them appear fatter.

Compare these two






When you separate the clumps, they reflect the natural pattern better.

 

[YvetteWithJoy]

I don't know I thought that pen spring coils are the smallest coils around. So coils up to that size should be 4c?

I also think that we have the same size of coils. I'm sure I saw your hair coil in some of the pics, at least on the ends. But yes gel can overclump the curls and make them appear fatter.

Compare these two

View attachment 426866


View attachment 426868

When you separate the clumps, they reflect the natural pattern better.

Maybe you're right.

I read a thread about silky versus course 4a hair. 4a hair can look a variety of ways.

 

[Karmi]

And to answer the original post....

All hair types do not need to showcase there versatility and style the same way. I think that for type 4b hair, twist and twist outs are popular because this style does a great job at preserving the hairs natural aesthetics with little to no damage. My hair is naturally wavy kinky, not curly...so I'm going to wear more styles that resemble my natural texture, hence twist and twist-outs. Type 4a and 3's wear a lot of wng's because that style naturally showcase their curly texture.

If a 4b can define their texture to rock a wng with little to no damage, then that's awesome. But not all 4b hair is going to create a define wng. Also, just because your hair does not have definition, this does not mean that your hair is unhealthy or that something else is wrong...it could just mean that your hair does not have definition.

I agree with you on this. I've been fighting with my 4a/3c hair to look good in a twist out because I love the look of twist outs, but the end results are always horrible on my hair. My hair just doesn't want to stretch out and take the form of the twists. It wants to do its thing and spiral curl from root to tip.
I accept it, so now I do twist outs with the intention of pinning my hair back like a halo type braid as a protective style for the winter.

 

[Alma Petra]

I searched after . I love GOT.

You often can't tell by just looking, whether someone's hair is thready or wiry etc but the descriptions within the system are what I find to be more helpful than a number and a letter, although it does make for a quick reference. I agree with you about the pics on various charts being confusing.

I believe my coils stretching is down to a number of things. Henna (obviously) and technique are on my list. For the past 4 years, the way I apply product be it clay, conditoner or gel, is the same. I repetitively smooth product on in small sections, holding my hair taut.

I like henna and only want the deep red/burgandy colour from it. I didn't intend to stretch my coils with henna and I always pat and scrunch it in to avoid it as much as possible. It still happens and when it does, I pull back on henna and things tend to tighten back up over time and with protein treatments. I fear my hair maybe reaching its saturation level though.
My hair before henna (2015):
View attachment 426850

It's great to know that it's reversible if you overdo it with henna.
But I will try your smoothing technique first before venturing towards henna.

 

[Alma Petra]

I don't comb my hair when I style. Only when I feel I need to have a proper clear out (every 4 months or so, I don't really count). I thoroughly finger detangle my hair on wash day and I don't envy you high density ladies when it comes to this lol.

When I comb my hair, I lose definition or clumpage (excuse me if that isn't a real word) until I apply water or a water based product (although I haven't tried smoothing my Shea onto combed out hair yet). Frizzy hair means no shine/sheen factor for me.

Same here.. Even if my combed hair does not look frizzy and all the strands are lying perfectly in parallel together, they would still not have shine (unless I use a lot of gel) but when they form coils they gain shine. I think the bumps form in the strands when they are straight, and straighten out when they curl.

 

[Alma Petra]

Maybe you're right.

I read a thread about silky versus course 4a hair. 4a hair can look a variety of ways.

It's all so very confusing! Lol Apparently even coarse hair can have its moments whereby it looks silky.

 

[GGsKin]

It's great to know that it's reversible if you overdo it with henna.
But I will try your smoothing technique first before venturing towards henna.

I wouldn't say reversible, idk. For me it's like a fine balance of trying to counter the loosening effects by giving my hair protein treatments (as my hair tends to tighten up with these) and allowing some of the henna to 'wear away' before going in with another application.

The effects of my product application may be due to my specific texture. Maybe not. I have a friend whose hair is far more coily/ curly than mine. She has high density, thick(er) strands. Her hair is not silky. I've not consistently done a wng on her hair (on average weekly) for 3 years, like I have with my own. We also use different products. When I do her hair, I expect to get defined hair but not the same results as my own. I use the same technique.

If you don't want to go the route of colour deposit, you could always see if cassia will stretch the hair in a similar manner. I've tried a cassia but not enough to notice. I don't think I followed up after 1 or 2 applications.

 

[GreenEyedJen]

This is so off topic from the original question in this thread, but if anyone wants some good reference pictures for hair "types" there were threads created some years ago called "Insert (hair type) pictures" or something like that. There was a different thread for each hair type or mix of types. Pictures are probably outdated on some hosting websites, but I bet there are enough in there to get a better idea of what people claim. Just search this form with the word "insert" in the thread title.

I've also been looking for the thread from years ago with Nonie and another 4b poster, talking about how all hair has a definite pattern, even when the owner of the hair can't see it. There were links to scientific articles as well as pictures of a "4c" turning into a "4b". It was a really good, really informative thread. I can't remember the other poster, any word in the title, or even the approximate year it was posted, so I haven't been able to find it.

 

[kxlot79]

The other day, I did a friend’s hair and it reminded me of this thread. Since I started taking care of her hair, it has very much transformed under my watch.
We always thought her hair was 4C. If the typing system mostly focuses on curl pattern, she tended to have a lot of zigzags, wiry flyaways, and random pieces that seemed straight, though she used no heat on her hair.
When I started focusing on mastering my WnG, she would admire my efforts and say she wished her hair would do what mine could, and we did some experimentation to see.
My opinion is that nearly everyone has a curl/wave pattern. I have seen my own coily hair appear very wavy when laden with sebum or certain products. WaterOnlyHairWash on YouTube is a really good example of this. That lady is 4A imo. But after years of sebum saturation, her hair is crinkly tight waves. I’ve seen people even call her a Type 3. And it’s silly to be so invested in a stranger’s hair but I find the miscategorization to be incredibly annoying.
Everyone doesn’t need to showcase their curl pattern. It’s ok not to want to. It’s ok to be divested of WnGs. And every style is definitely not for everyone.
But I think sometimes people have unreasonable expectations of their own hair; and sometimes project that onto everyone with hair similar to theirs.
That being said, curl/wave pattern alone, imo, is not enough to qualify whether or to what degree or under what circumstances a “wearable” WnG can be achieved.

 

[Brwnbeauti]

If you all don’t mind, who are your fave type 4 bloggers?
I used to really care about elongating and defining. I just don’t anymore. It’s always moisturized and I accept the whatever level of definition I get from a 30 minute wng and the applied products. I used to spend HOURS trying to get the perfect coils. I’m not over manipulating my hair (anymore) to make it something it’s not.

 

[MizzBFly]

I'm not familiar with Natalie Emmanuel. I am basing my judgement on how your hair looks with gel/ product added. With gel, your hair reflects light very well. There are certain parts of my hair (nape) that look shiny when I add gel, and there is the majority that will instead have a sheen, or reflect very little light at all- in effect look dull with gel. I don't see this with your hair.

Due to the way I apply my products, I believe that many of my coils get stretched out, appearing like waves. If I shingle or twirl my strands, some of them will created spiral coils that are smaller than yours.

The system being used here is outdated and unhelpful for the most part.

In another thread @Sharpened previously posted link to an excellent old thread from BHM that broke down the LOIS system with various hair pics. Although it is more in depth at addressing the characteristics of different hair types, I think it helps people to identify how their hair behaves all round vs just how it looks. Especially when the manipulation factor, products, and technique can also affect the way your hair looks in any given style.

I agree with the sheen factor that predominantly lacks in the 4bc family without coaxing. My daughter who is a range of 3s definitely allows me to see firsthand the highlights that are different. Her WnG curls/shine mine creates some curls but primarily waves/some olive oil or CHI silk

 

[kxlot79]

So my friend who I thought was 4C but now think could be 4B or 4A, I’m posting a WnG she did herself about 2 years ago, and a set of fingercoils I did about 2 weeks ago. I just realized fingercoils are a different style so I’ll try to remember to update what her WnG looks like when I do it. It’s very similar to these finger coils I did but looser and less neat. Her hair is dry in the pic but very very shiny due to my methods and the products.

I’ve also posted a few different pics of my hair essentially WnG. Different products and methods though. Some of the pics are before henna, some are after. I can’t tell the difference henna has made on my curl pattern so I doubt anyone else can. ETA:
All of the pics of my hair are 1st Day and dry. Some are older, some are newer. I have BC’d 4 times and even shaved my head where all my hair was completely virgin without henna. The only difference in my hair with henna is when wet and with detangling.

 

[GreenEyedJen]

So my friend who I thought was 4C but now think could be 4B or 4A, I’m posting a WnG she did herself about 2 years ago, and a set of fingercoils I did about 2 weeks ago. I just realized fingercoils are a different style so I’ll try to remember to update what her WnG looks like when I do it. It’s very similar to these finger coils I did but looser and less neat. Her hair is dry in the pic but very very shiny due to my methods and the products.View attachment 426890View attachment 426888

I’ve also posted a few different pics of my hair essentially WnG. Different products and methods though. Some of the pics are before henna, some are after. I can’t tell the difference henna has made on my curl pattern so I doubt anyone else can. ETA:
All of the pics of my hair are 1st Day and dry. Some are older, some are newer. I have BC’d 4 times and even shaved my head where all my hair was completely virgin without henna. The only difference in my hair with henna is when wet and with detangling.
View attachment 426882View attachment 426884View attachment 426886View attachment 426894 View attachment 426892
View attachment 426896

Your hair is gorgeous! I love the second and third pictures! How did you secure your hair in those pictures? Is it banded, or pinned/clipped in some way? That's totally a "me" style, but I haven't been able to achieve that look after a certain length.

 

[kxlot79]

Thanks! Just a WnG in a side ponytail for both.

Your hair is gorgeous! I love the second and third pictures! How did you secure your hair in those pictures? Is it banded, or pinned/clipped in some way?

 

[GGsKin]

@kxlot79 Beautiful hair. Loving all the variations and volume.

 

[YvetteWithJoy]

The other day, I did a friend’s hair and it reminded me of this thread. Since I started taking care of her hair, it has very much transformed under my watch.
We always thought her hair was 4C. If the typing system mostly focuses on curl pattern, she tended to have a lot of zigzags, wiry flyaways, and random pieces that seemed straight, though she used no heat on her hair.
When I started focusing on mastering my WnG, she would admire my efforts and say she wished her hair would do what mine could, and we did some experimentation to see.
My opinion is that nearly everyone has a curl/wave pattern. I have seen my own coily hair appear very wavy when laden with sebum or certain products. WaterOnlyHairWash on YouTube is a really good example of this. That lady is 4A imo. But after years of sebum saturation, her hair is crinkly tight waves. I’ve seen people even call her a Type 3. And it’s silly to be so invested in a stranger’s hair but I find the miscategorization to be incredibly annoying.
Everyone doesn’t need to showcase their curl pattern. It’s ok not to want to. It’s ok to be divested of WnGs. And every style is definitely not for everyone.
But I think sometimes people have unreasonable expectations of their own hair; and sometimes project that onto everyone with hair similar to theirs.
That being said, curl/wave pattern alone, imo, is not enough to qualify whether or to what degree or under what circumstances a “wearable” WnG can be achieved.

Fascinating.

I'm never going to get hair typing right. Lol.

I'm just glad I learned here that porosity needs to be my main concern.

 

[Cheleigh]

@kxlot79 oh, your hair is so pretty. I don't have that sort of hair volume.

Someone upthread mentioned that their 4a/3c hair doesn't hold twist outs well. Mine doesn't either. Twists give me stretch, but not definition.

Here's my 4a W&G day one


Here's the same W&G day two (no additional product or water added, as I was running late for work).


And here's the back of my W&G a couple a months ago when my hair was a little longer (the flash gives it more sheen than it really has). The back half of my hair is a little more 3c than the 4a front and sides, plus the highlighted section curls are stretched by the bleach.

 

[caribeandiva]

@lexi84 there are variety of type 4 on the tube...who are also quite popular. In my experience letting type 4 hair remain unstretched is often not a good idea due to being prone to tangles...

That’s been my experience too. Wearing wash and gos exclusively for years kept my hair at the same length because of the tangles. And I loooovvveeedd wearing them. It’s not a healthy style for those of us who are prone to tangles. I learned my lesson. I wear my hair stretched out 100% of the time now.

 

[caribeandiva]

I don't do wash n go's because of the resulting tangles and knots afterwards.

This year I plan staying in 2 strand twists. Just so much easier to deal with.

Hey lady! Long time no see.

 

[caribeandiva]

Ain't Nobody gots time for setbacks!

Amen sister!

 

[caribeandiva]

Can someone post their 4b w&g....please!

There you go even though I no longer do them. My hair is type 4 (I think).

 

[MizzBFly]

Here we go
The last one was from 3/10

 

[kxlot79]

Your color and puff are so pretty!

Here we go
The last one was from 3/10

 

[MizzBFly]

Your color and puff are so pretty!

Thanks hon... we still waiting for a breakdown on that WnG side pony tho