can you or can you not lose your salvation?

[Galadriel]

1. Sin is any thought, action, attitude, desire or position that is in disobedience to God and his divine law.

2. Justification is the act of being declared righteous-in right standing with God.

3. Sanctification is the process by which we become more holy (sin less and do more good).

4. Hell is a place of eternal seperation from God. A place of torment for those who choose not to accept Jesus as their savior. (There are different degrees of torment in hell just as there are different degrees of rewards in heaven)

How do these work together?

We are housed in bodies of sin (sinful nature) and continuously break Gods laws.

God declared that the wages of sin is death (eternal seperation from God in hell) so we were all headed straight to hell because of our sinful nature (when we break one law we are gulity of breaking all).

Jesus died on the cross to free us from the ultimate penalty of sin (hell). He did this by trading his righteousness for our unrighteousness, thereby justifying us before God. So for those who believe...when God looks at us, He sees the righteousness of His son and declares us righteous, securing our eternal destination, heaven.

But while here on earth we have a part to play. Sanctification is us, by the power of the Holy ghost, doing our part to become more like God (working out -or choosing to live in the reality of-our soul salvation, enduring until the end etc.). This includes prayer, obedience to His word, studying, repenting for sins, doing good works etc. Though we are no longer slaves to sin...we still sin and will not be completely free from our sinful nature until death. And while we are still here on earth we will reap in this life what we sow...present consequences/rewards and the un/fulfilling of certain promises God gave.

@Galadriel , where do you/catholicsm differ on the above doctrines (sin, sanctification, justification, and hell)


It seems as though there are a couple different view points going on concerning losing one's salvation.

1. You can lose it if you believe in Jesus but commit certain sins.

2. You can lose it if you believe in Jesus and commit a sin that you do not repent for before you die.

3. You can believe then choose not to believe and therefore give back your salvation.

I'm not sure if everyone is adhering to all of the above or some.

CoilyFields Thanks so much for laying it out thoroughly! I agree with about 98% of what you said. I think there is one major point I'd differ on, and then there are some other detailed nuances that Catholicism adheres to.

While I agree that we still deal with temptations and inclinations to sin (and at times commit sin), I believe that we can stop sinning, but not through our own power or effort, but through Christ's sanctifying grace.

This is the purpose of sanctification. It's a process, and the end (or goal) is that we reach interior holiness.

If for whatever reason we still have flaws or attachments at the time of death, that is what Purgatory is for, to complete the cleansing of our souls so that we may enter Heaven spotless and see God face to face.

I agree that sin is any willful word, thought, or action that violates God's law, and this includes the willful neglect of what is commanded in God's law.

I'll quote below from the Catholic Catechism (Baltimore Catechism):


Q. 277. Is original sin the only kind of sin?
A. Original sin is not the only kind of sin; there is another kind of sin, which we commit ourselves, called actual sin.


Q. 278. What is actual sin?
A. Actual sin is any willful thought, word, deed, or omission contrary to the law of God.


Q. 279. How many kinds of actual sin are there?
A. There are two kinds of actual sin -- mortal and venial.


Q. 280. What is mortal sin?
A. Mortal sin is a grievous offense against the law of God.


Q. 281. Why is this sin called mortal?
A. This sin is called mortal because it deprives us of spiritual life, which is sanctifying grace, and brings everlasting death and damnation on the soul.


Q. 282. How many things are necessary to make a sin mortal?
A. To make a sin mortal, three things are necessary: 1.a grievous matter, sufficient reflection, and full consent of the will.


Q. 283. What do we mean by "grievous matter" with regard to sin?
A. By "grievous matter" with regard to sin we mean that the thought, word or deed by which mortal sin is committed must be either very bad in itself or severely prohibited, and therefore sufficient to make a mortal sin if we deliberately yield to it.


Q. 284. What does "sufficient reflection and full consent of the will" mean?
A. "Sufficient reflection" means that we must know the thought, word or deed to be sinful at the time we are guilty of it; and "full consent of the will" means that we must fully and willfully yield to it.


Q. 285. What are sins committed without reflection or consent called?
A. Sins committed without reflection or consent are called material sins; that is, they would be formal or real sins if we knew their sinfulness at the time we committed them. Thus to eat flesh meat on a day of abstinence without knowing it to be a day of abstinence or without thinking of the prohibition, would be a material sin.


Q. 286. Do past material sins become real sins as soon as we discover their sinfulness?
A. Past material sins do not become real sins as soon as we discover their sinfulness, unless we again repeat them with full knowledge and consent.


Q. 287. How can we know what sins are considered mortal?
A. We can know what sins are considered mortal from Holy Scripture; from the teaching of the Church, and from the writings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church.


Q. 288. Why is it wrong to judge others guilty of sin?
A. It is wrong to judge others guilty of sin because we cannot know for certain that their sinful act was committed with sufficient reflection and full consent of the will.


Q. 289. What sin does he commit who without sufficient reason believes another guilty of sin?
A. He who without sufficient reason believes another guilty of sin commits a sin of rash judgment.


Q. 290. What is venial sin?
A. Venial sin is a slight offense against the law of God in matters of less importance, or in matters of great importance it is an offense committed without sufficient reflection or full consent of the will.


Q. 291. Can we always distinguish venial from mortal sin?
A. We cannot always distinguish venial from mortal sin, and in such cases we must leave the decision to our confessor.


Q. 292. Can slight offenses ever become mortal sins?
A. Slight offenses can become mortal sins if we commit them through defiant contempt for God or His law; and also when they are followed by very evil consequences, which we foresee in committing them.


Q. 293. Which are the effects of venial sin?
A. The effects of venial sin are the lessening of the love of God in our heart, the making us less worthy of His help, and the weakening of the power to resist mortal sin.


Q. 294. How can we know a thought, word or deed to be sinful?
A. We can know a thought, word or deed to be sinful if it, or the neglect of it, is forbidden by any law of God or of His Church, or if it is opposed to any supernatural virtue.


Q. 295. Which are the chief sources of sin?
A. The chief sources of sin are seven: 1.Pride, Covetousness, Lust, Anger, Gluttony, Envy, and Sloth, and they are commonly called capital sins.

 

[blazingthru]

Can you lose the gift of Salvation? (Once saved always saved)
A: No, if what you mean by that is lose your salvation like you can lose your shoe. God will never take it from us, but you can give it back.
I found this is my studies and it made sense to me.

 

[sidney]

With those he will say "Depart from me, I never knew you" those are the people who have claimed to be Christians but have no relationship with him. They are the Pharaisses (sp?) if you will. They are religious folk. Remember religion is man's attempt to reach God. So these people are doing everything they can to work to get into heaven, instead of what God tell us to do. Cain and Abel is a good example like this. Abel obeyed and offer the sacrifice that God wanted. Cain tried to offer his own thing, thus disobeying God. Their example is just one of the many examples leading up to the cross that will show how it's going to be, to show who is the church and who is of the world. If we could lose our salvation, truly lose it, then the bible would say it without sugarcoating. Plus, if we could lose our salvation, why would God put his Spirit in those who believe in him? Plus, Jesus said it is finished when he was on the cross, where he conquered death, hell, and the grave and most of all sin. He also died for past, present and future sins. (yep that image of little makeupgirl stealing that cookie from grandma's cookie jar and present time makeupgirl cussing out in her mind that has ticked her off was shown then) Even though the body of Christ are no longer sinners, we cannot escape sin. We still have that sinful nature that is always going to restle for control. This is why we was told to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16-17) Pray without ceasing; and 1 John 1:9. We can't lose our sonship. Just like when I make my mom mad, I don't lose my relationship with her; Im just briefly out of fellowship with her until I make things right and this is the same with our relationship with God.

I dont believe these were pharisees. There is a scripture that says he died for his sheep and another where he told the pharisees they did Not know his voice because they were Not his sheep.

 

[CoilyFields]

@CoilyFields Thanks so much for laying it out thoroughly! I agree with about 98% of what you said. I think there is one major point I'd differ on, and then there are some other detailed nuances that Catholicism adheres to.

While I agree that we still deal with temptations and inclinations to sin (and at times commit sin), I believe that we can stop sinning, but not through our own power or effort, but through Christ's sanctifying grace.

This is the purpose of sanctification. It's a process, and the end (or goal) is that we reach interior holiness.

If for whatever reason we still have flaws or attachments at the time of death, that is what Purgatory is for, to complete the cleansing of our souls so that we may enter Heaven spotless and see God face to face.

I agree that sin is any willful word, thought, or action that violates God's law, and this includes the willful neglect of what is commanded in God's law.

I'll quote below from the Catholic Catechism (Baltimore Catechism):


Q. 277. Is original sin the only kind of sin?
A. Original sin is not the only kind of sin; there is another kind of sin, which we commit ourselves, called actual sin.


Q. 278. What is actual sin?
A. Actual sin is any willful thought, word, deed, or omission contrary to the law of God.


Q. 279. How many kinds of actual sin are there?
A. There are two kinds of actual sin -- mortal and venial.


Q. 280. What is mortal sin?
A. Mortal sin is a grievous offense against the law of God.


Q. 281. Why is this sin called mortal?
A. This sin is called mortal because it deprives us of spiritual life, which is sanctifying grace, and brings everlasting death and damnation on the soul.


Q. 282. How many things are necessary to make a sin mortal?
A. To make a sin mortal, three things are necessary: 1.a grievous matter, sufficient reflection, and full consent of the will.


Q. 283. What do we mean by "grievous matter" with regard to sin?
A. By "grievous matter" with regard to sin we mean that the thought, word or deed by which mortal sin is committed must be either very bad in itself or severely prohibited, and therefore sufficient to make a mortal sin if we deliberately yield to it.


Q. 284. What does "sufficient reflection and full consent of the will" mean?
A. "Sufficient reflection" means that we must know the thought, word or deed to be sinful at the time we are guilty of it; and "full consent of the will" means that we must fully and willfully yield to it.


Q. 285. What are sins committed without reflection or consent called?
A. Sins committed without reflection or consent are called material sins; that is, they would be formal or real sins if we knew their sinfulness at the time we committed them. Thus to eat flesh meat on a day of abstinence without knowing it to be a day of abstinence or without thinking of the prohibition, would be a material sin.


Q. 286. Do past material sins become real sins as soon as we discover their sinfulness?
A. Past material sins do not become real sins as soon as we discover their sinfulness, unless we again repeat them with full knowledge and consent.


Q. 287. How can we know what sins are considered mortal?
A. We can know what sins are considered mortal from Holy Scripture; from the teaching of the Church, and from the writings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church.


Q. 288. Why is it wrong to judge others guilty of sin?
A. It is wrong to judge others guilty of sin because we cannot know for certain that their sinful act was committed with sufficient reflection and full consent of the will.


Q. 289. What sin does he commit who without sufficient reason believes another guilty of sin?
A. He who without sufficient reason believes another guilty of sin commits a sin of rash judgment.


Q. 290. What is venial sin?
A. Venial sin is a slight offense against the law of God in matters of less importance, or in matters of great importance it is an offense committed without sufficient reflection or full consent of the will.


Q. 291. Can we always distinguish venial from mortal sin?
A. We cannot always distinguish venial from mortal sin, and in such cases we must leave the decision to our confessor.


Q. 292. Can slight offenses ever become mortal sins?
A. Slight offenses can become mortal sins if we commit them through defiant contempt for God or His law; and also when they are followed by very evil consequences, which we foresee in committing them.


Q. 293. Which are the effects of venial sin?
A. The effects of venial sin are the lessening of the love of God in our heart, the making us less worthy of His help, and the weakening of the power to resist mortal sin.


Q. 294. How can we know a thought, word or deed to be sinful?
A. We can know a thought, word or deed to be sinful if it, or the neglect of it, is forbidden by any law of God or of His Church, or if it is opposed to any supernatural virtue.


Q. 295. Which are the chief sources of sin?
A. The chief sources of sin are seven: 1.Pride, Covetousness, Lust, Anger, Gluttony, Envy, and Sloth, and they are commonly called capital sins.

@ Galadriel , I totally see where we differ in that 2%! lol.

If one believes that a sinless state (interior holiness) can be achieved here on earth then it would lead to the conclusion that unless one achieves that sinless state (or close enough to it to go to purgatory in Catholicism) then salvation will not be theirs.

And I believe that as long as we are housed in these bodies of flesh we will not be sinless (this includes acts as well as the desire/inclination to break God's law). We are no longer slaves to sin, we are free from the penalty of sin but the war between flesh and spirit will not be concluded until the return of Jesus. This leads to the conclusion that only acceptance of Jesus Christ (who fulfilled the law) will bring salvation since we will never be able to fully keep the law. And since He holds the key to our salvation then it will not change based on our in/actions.

Thanks for outlining the differences between the sins that explain your stance on the topic!

 

[loolalooh]

Whether one can lose his/her salvation may be a debate until the end of time. One's thing is for certain, though. If you are "walking in the Spirit", you are on the right path ...

Food for thought, ladies. I came across this today:

Galatians 5

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

[Crown]

Salvation is a gift.
But Salvation is also Victory (at the end).
And Salvation is an I concern (not you or we)

Some verses are not for the bride.

I can not lose my Salvation.

God is sovereign.

Rom. 8 : 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Phil. 2 : 12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.


Some seem to be in the body, but they are not of the body, they don't have the right cloth.

Mat. 22 : 14 11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.
13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

Rev. 13 : 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
Rev. 17 : 8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.


The weeds will lose for sure :
Mat. 13 : [FONT=&quot]24[FONT=&quot] Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ [/FONT]
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

 

[BostonMaria]

I'm confused now more than ever LOL

 

[sidney]

I'm confused now more than ever LOL

BostonMaria. There are a lot of points on each side. Here is more to think about. Romans 11:11-24

Ingrafted Branches

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!



I think the key that I mentioned in my posted above, and the other ladies like Loolahlooh, Alicia, And Blazingthru have all mentioned is that we should not persist in unbelief. God gives us an opportunity to get ourselves together. If we are continuing in fellowship with him, there is nothing to be threatened about. No one is losing their salvation because they sin, we all we be sinful. But we do not persist in sinful life styles, and we do not reject God when situations of life try us, or we will forfeit our salvation. HTH.

ETA: emphasis

 

[SummerSolstice]

I just wanted to say...
there is a woman who is habitually rude and a gossip and she sits in front of me in the choir.
Is she going to hell for doing those sins repeatedly?
She must be because all sin is equal and if the person who has sex before marriage is going to hell then the rude meanie in the choir has to go.
I dunno though what do you guys think?
I know that I am not Him and I know not His ways... I would never be able to provide an answer aside from the fact that I am holding on to His grace like everyone else.

 

[sidney]

I just wanted to say...
there is a woman who is habitually rude and a gossip and she sits in front of me in the choir.
Is she going to hell for doing those sins repeatedly?
She must be because all sin is equal and if the person who has sex before marriage is going to hell then the rude meanie in the choir has to go.
I dunno though what do you guys think?
I know that I am not Him and I know not His ways... I would never be able to provide an answer aside from the fact that I am holding on to His grace like everyone else.

I don't know what he will do in regards to her, but we are all holding on to his grace. God says he came to save the sinners, not the righteous Matthew 9:13. Paul says of all the sinners, he was chief. We have hope, we just have to keep on believing and let our faith in him change our actions.

ETA: That lady sounds a bit too much, it's a sad thing that she's in the choir. I would think she would have some joy from all the praising.

 

[SummerSolstice]

She is a bit much...
I won't try to pick and choose who is saved because that is not my job and no man can know regardless of how many bible verses we try to cite. We will never be able to decide for Him.
He views all sins as equal and if we are to pick and choose and try to account for EACH AND EVERY one in order to get to heaven, then how did His death cancel out the whole process in the temple that they had to do

 

[Galadriel]

I just wanted to say...
there is a woman who is habitually rude and a gossip and she sits in front of me in the choir.
Is she going to hell for doing those sins repeatedly?
She must be because all sin is equal and if the person who has sex before marriage is going to hell then the rude meanie in the choir has to go.
I dunno though what do you guys think?
I know that I am not Him and I know not His ways... I would never be able to provide an answer aside from the fact that I am holding on to His grace like everyone else.

I am of the view that not all sins are equal. Some sins are mortal, and some are venial.

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

Matthew 18:5-9
“And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
“Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

 

[SummerSolstice]

I am of the view that not all sins are equal. Some sins are mortal, and some are venial.

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

Matthew 18:5-9
“And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
“Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Oh ok. We're definitely different there. I guess we will all have to as Him when we get there.