How I Learned That Being West Indian Didn't Make Me Better Than African Americans

Ganjababy

Well-Known Member
Like any family, we blacks of slave and non-slave descent have our issues amongst us. But I think we have more love, respect and good intentions towards each other than we have bad intentions. I try and focus on that.

It is hard enough trying to survive the white man's aggressions, greed and power hunger. Then I have the inter island prejudices (small islands versus big island, Spanish speaking versus English versus French creole), slave versus non-slave, AA versus WI. Nah son. My battle is with the white man.
 

Menina Preta

Well-Known Member
I was hoping this blog article would not be posted here, b/c it truly is beating a dead horse. And ya, I don' t think Haitians consider themselves to be "West Indian." They are in the West Indies, but I notice most people use West Indian to refer to people from English-speaking countries and don't include places like Cuba, Haiti, DR, and PR. Some Haitian-Americans have adopted the term to feel included when they discuss persons of West Indian descent. I mean y'all are included during the West Indian Day Parade, whereas I think folks would cry bloody murder if we ever had a Puerto Rican or Cuban truck, lmao.
 

bajandoc86

Lipstick Lover
@Menina Preta

She is talking about the term CaribbeanS like how people say Africans. We (well I have never heard a Bajan/Trini/St.Lucian/Jamaican use it) don't use that term to refer to ourselves. We say 'I am from the Caribbean', or 'Caribbean people', or 'I am West Indian', 'we are from the caribbean' etc. We don't use the plural of Caribbean. Sounds very strange to my ears.
 

Brwnbeauti

Well-Known Member
This always confuses me a bit. Immigrants are usually the very smart, the very hard working, moneyed, or a combo (correct me if I'm wrong) comparing yourself to all African Americans seems a bit foolish. That's like me leaving here, going to an impoverished part of Haiti and looking around saying damn, why these people still living like this, they been free for half a century or longer than my folk, but look at me and look at them. Black people everywhere face obstacles to success.
 

LivingInPeace

Well-Known Member
This always confuses me a bit. Immigrants are usually the very smart, the very hard working, moneyed, or a combo (correct me if I'm wrong) comparing yourself to all African Americans seems a bit foolish. That's like me leaving here, going to an impoverished part of Haiti and looking around saying damn, why these people still living like this, they been free for half a century or longer than my folk, but look at me and look at them. Black people everywhere face obstacles to success.
Bigots don't operate on logic.
 

Menina Preta

Well-Known Member
@Menina Preta

She is talking about the term CaribbeanS like how people say Africans. We (well I have never heard a Bajan/Trini/St.Lucian/Jamaican use it) don't use that term to refer to ourselves. We say 'I am from the Caribbean', or 'Caribbean people', or 'I am West Indian', 'we are from the caribbean' etc. We don't use the plural of Caribbean. Sounds very strange to my ears.

Ya, it does sound strange. Very.
 

LoveisYou

Well-Known Member
So much division. Of course not everyone feels that way but happens on both sides. There are so many kinds of divisive politics among human beings.

The only thing I have to say about this particular topic. Some ppl get so angry when foreign blacks show national pride. If I was born and raised outside the U.S. Then why are you so upset that I claim my nationality? It's a very U.S. centric viewpoint that I don't understand. Can we at least agree that the African Diaspora is diverse and that black ppl are...everywhere.
 

prettynatural

Think, Do, Be
How I Learned That Being West Indian Didn't Make Me Better Than African Americans

by Lisa Jean Francois – January 18, 2016
View attachment 349507


Growing up in the 80’s and 90’s I learned very early on that being Haitian wasn’t exactly the thing to be. When my family moved to a new town, my older brother and I simply hid it. Nobody asked, so we didn’t tell. Then it all began to unravel. My third grader teacher assigned a family tree diagram which forced me to reveal our heritage I recall coming home from school that day feeling dread as I told my older brother (by two years) that the jig was up. The tears came quickly, from both us, as we understood all too well what it would mean to reveal that we were Haitian. The teasing would be brutal, but tolerable. Feeling ostracized was what we feared the most.

But then we grew up, and like most people, the very thing we were teased about as children became the thing we cherished with the upmost pride. We embraced our heritage, and slowly the larger West-Indian community began to accept us. Gaining this acceptance, however, came at a price. While I had always heard family members speak with disdain about Black Americans, it wasn’t until I was a teenager when I learned that this us vs. them mentality spanned across West-Indian cultures. When I’d hear West-Indians attributing certain stereotypes to Black Americans, I found myself nodding in agreement. We were different, I insisted. We were educated. Our children were better behaved. We were hard-working. Our food tasted better. African Americans gave us all a bad name, and while we would befriend them in public, in private, we’d deride them for being stereotypical.

I carried this belief with me to college. I was even proud when white people would praise me for being different from what they’d imagined. My French last name was also a crowd-pleaser. I ate it all up with a spoon. My false pride, however, came to an abrupt halt towards the end of my freshman year when one of my white dorm-mates told me to, “Go back to Africa.” I was stunned. Surely, she couldn’t mean me? I had the perfectly straight hair. I dressed well. I made the Dean’s list. I spoke properly. How could she, in a moment of anger, reduce me to being a black face just like any other? I was different. Wasn’t I? It was a hard lesson, but she woke me up good and proper. I’ve never been the same and I’m proud that I did not go into adulthood carrying that load of self-hatred with me.

Recently, Huffington Post writer Nadege Seppou, who is of Cameroonian heritage, penned an open letter to African immigrants, urging them to not fall victim to the same belief system. She writes:

White Americans will say you are better than American blacks, but please do not fall for this trap. You will be told you behave better, work harder, and are more educated than American blacks. You will be tempted to agree and will sometimes want to shout, “YES, I’M NOT LIKE THEM, WE AFRICANS ARE DIFFERENT!” Just don’t…don’t even think it.

The praise of your acquired characteristic and culture becomes a justification for white Americans to perpetuate discriminatory treatments towards American blacks. These statements of praise have an underlying message of, “If Africans can do so well then surely racism has nothing to do with anything, therefore, American Blacks are to be blamed for their condition in America”. This problematic line of reasoning sustains cultural racism. I beg of you, refrain from nodding in agreement when you receive such faulty praise.

Indeed, West Indians, like the African immigrants described in Seppou’s letter, are guilty of the same misdeeds. In wanting to carve out a place for ourselves in a society where being black places you on the bottom rung, we have perpetuated the belief that we are better than our African American counterparts.

Caribbean culture and African culture are different than African American culture. But when we celebrate our uniqueness, it should never be to shame African American culture.

Source

This must be regional. I've never encountered this us vs them mentality but I'm in the Deep South. It bewilders me that other black immigrants feel superior to me or Native Black people because we are different. This us nonesense. Smh every time.
 

GraceJones

Well-Known Member
I have noticed a certain superiority among some foreign Blacks. I've always been highly offended at the thought that they might think they're better than us. But then later realized that it is very much about divide and conquer. Only difference between West Indians and us is a boat stop. White people use their ignorance of American history against them.
I reading a study once that said the poorer WIs usually identified as AA by the first or second generation WI-Americans, meanwhile the richer did not. They still identified with their main culture. I thought that was interesting.

My family is WI but all of my external identifiers are AA. I was born and raised here, I walk and talk like an AA. If I didn't tell you my family was WI and you never met them, you would never know. So much of American culture is taken from AA culture so IDK how any American can say that they are separate from AA culture. I guess I have to acknowledge that more readily because I'm black.
 

CurlyNiquee

Well-Known Member
This must be regional. I've never encountered this us vs them mentality but I'm in the Deep South. It bewilders me that other black immigrants feel superior to me or Native Black people because we are different. This us nonesense. Smh every time.

I was befriended by a Rwandan years ago and found myself in the company of many Africans from various countries. There was definitely an air of superiority amoung some of them. Maybe it's not something the average AA would experience if they don't move in circles that put you contact with foreign blacks.
 
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Xaragua

Well-Known Member
Let me tell ya....you can get whisteled at (not in the sexy kinda way) for having natural hair. You can and will get passed over for jobs for looking a certain way. Incidentally, in PR, I was applying for a position while in school with a govt. dept. and a Haitian woman was HORRIBLY evil to me in the interview. I actually broke down and cried later. That's when someone told me how Haitians live hell in PR and turn on others they view as competition . Then I remembered after-the-fact that this interviewer and head of a certain dept. (very influential woman) made mention of it. She was very dark-skinned, had 1 inch short tight afro....said that people openly called her a "monkey" on the job. !! SMH. And then I began to notice how girls with loose curls or straight hair faired better than those who didn't look that way - mostly Black folks from other Islands like British V.I. It's real as a muva. And I could be wrong, but in Haiti, having relaxed hair is a show of status considering the extreme poverty there.
Having a relaxer does not show status, anybody in haiti can get a relaxer
 
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MsSanz92

Well-Known Member
well good for her for admitting that and overcoming it
i think the story with the white dorm mate was just to prove a point, wouldn't be surprised if that never happened

my family is half west indian and while they always emphasize how different the culture is, they were not critical and i never got the feeling that they thought they were better, which I'm thankful for

IA. My dad's family is African (Liberian specifically) and my mom is AA, and I never got that sense of superiority from him or his family. Granted, Liberia's history is different from other West African countries, and Liberian culture has a lot of American, and specifically Black American influence because of the Americo-Liberian population. I can't believe that in 2016 that some immigrant Blacks are still falling for the okey-doke and really believe that White people actually give a damn about them. All of this false propaganda is a set up to keep Black people divided, and I will go as far as to say that the same "immigrant Blacks vs. African Americans" rhetoric can be extended to Afro-Latinos and not just West Indians and Africans. I've seen some Afro-Latinos who openly proclaim their Blackness still carry this "I'm better than Black Americans" aura to them, which is dumbfounding as hell to me.
 

CaraWalker

Well-Known Member
Not all Black Africans who feel a sense of superiority over AA get it from white peoples validation of them.

Some have never lived in the US and so have no interaction with these U.S. divide to conquer whites. Some of this superiority complex stems from the fact that AA's (and other black slave descendants in the diaspora) are descended from slaves and they lost their African culture. Some Africans see us as culture-less slave descendants who are confused about our identities. They see us as black but not of them. Almost alien, second class cousins.

Not everyone's views are nuanced through the white/black gaze...

like i said, im not super familiar with this queer inferiority complex, and given that the writer of this article specifically cited white acceptance as the cause of, and destructive force to, her self loathing opinions, i assumed that was the case. her views were nuanced through that gaze and no one in the thread had contradicted it.
 

CaraWalker

Well-Known Member
So much division. Of course not everyone feels that way but happens on both sides. There are so many kinds of divisive politics among human beings.

The only thing I have to say about this particular topic. Some ppl get so angry when foreign blacks show national pride. If I was born and raised outside the U.S. Then why are you so upset that I claim my nationality? It's a very U.S. centric viewpoint that I don't understand. Can we at least agree that the African Diaspora is diverse and that black ppl are...everywhere.
who? nobody cares. this is the equivalent of "i get made fun of for talking white" :rolleyes: i swear to you nobody cares about your special snowflake nationalism :lol:
 

MsSanz92

Well-Known Member
Thank you for providing an example of the behavior in the op. I was wondering when the 'Yeah, but...' would start.

I love how immigrant Blacks are always so quick to assume that AAs make "excuses" for not being successful, ignoring several things:

1) There are many successful and affluent Black American people and subcultures, that unfortunately, are very elitist and you will never have access to simply because you're an immigrant Black. Some immigrant Blacks sit here and talk a bunch of crap about how lazy AAs are, when they live in the hood. Most immigrants who come here live in large urban cities in lower income communities, so of course the people there aren't the most successful and ambitious!

2) They also are ignorant of the crippling institutional racism that has outcasted many Black people from moving up on the social ladder. Just like in their home countries, there is stifling poverty there. Don't think because the US is a first world nation that poverty just magically disappears. People forget that the "mentality" of poverty is a result of the real social and political hindrances in this country against the social upward mobility of Black people. The level of institutionalized racism is to a magnitude that most immigrant Blacks can't even fathom, because such a system doesn't exist in their home countries. Most Black immigrants come from predominately Black societies, so they never really had to live in a predominately White society that at its foundation is built and sustains itself by doing EVERY AND ANY THING possible to ensure that Black people remain on the bottom of the totem pole. It's systems, it's not just about people being lazy.

3) Not all immigrant Blacks are successful and work hard; there's tons who also are criminals and unproductive members of this society. The knife cuts both ways and I'm sick of people preaching this idea that AAs are just lazy and that all Black immigrant are prospering and it's just NOT TRUE. I know many immigrant Blacks who appear to have success because they choose to work multiple jobs and sacrifice everything to sustain a fake lifestyle, only to either literally work themselves to death, or lose it all because they've taken too much on their plate. One example of this is here in NYC; during the housing bust in 2007-2008, many immigrant Blacks bought overpriced houses in parts of Brooklyn/Queens with subprime mortgages and were left destitute, just to prove the point that they're "better" than these lazy AAs because they have a house. Is that really success though? You're either living in a house that you're under water in, and/or are working crazy hours just to get by.

I say all of this that both groups have successful people, and people who are falling by the wayside, and it makes no sense that BOTH groups are trying to one up each other, when we really face pretty much the same plight in this country.
 
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FemmeCreole

Island Gyal
I did not read the whole article but a lot of W.Is do feel superior and yes there are "other" folks who treat us differently because of where we're from.

But the reason for the superiority complex is pure bs. A lot of us have fed into the AA stereotypes and don't realize we're fighting against our brothers and sisters. It's a divide and conquer tactic and we took the bait.

It is changing though. The younger generation generally do not hold the same perspective.
 
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FemmeCreole

Island Gyal
I can't speak for those from the African Continent.

I grew up going to public school in Barbados with Bajan whites, so I have no fairytales about them (white people as a group).

I was really referring to the phenomena where some of us (Caribbean people) go over to the USA and do well, and compare themselves to AAs and come to the conclusion that we are just better. Without truly understanding the impact of their history. Look down on them, their culture, but yet refuse to leave. LOL!

Yes we have similarites i.e. Plantocracy and slavery etc, but how do you compare the American construct to your own when you grew up in a nation that is 95% black, where everyone in politics or most people in business/education etc are black. For many of us in the Caribbean socioeconomic class trumps race with a dash of colourism.
Truth
 

naturalgyrl5199

Well-Known Member
This reminds me of a sweet kid I met in grad school (he was in undergrad at an HBCU) who told us his story. Not a lot of light skinned blacks who are fluent in Spanish around. Anyways he was born in DR and came to the US at age 8. He says for a LONG time he never identified as black. He said NO one in his family is mixed with white. His family to his knowledge is black going back generations. But he said you'll rarely ever meet anyone from DR say they are black. He said his attendance at an HBCU changed that when some very dear AA guys he befriended got him straight. He said it was a no-brainer. But he feels he and others from DR with that attitude are brainwashed, they dissociate, and are projecting, and ignore history. His wife is a black AA. He got her to meet his family and they loved her of course....but thought she was SPECIAL. He said he had to explain to her that they had raised him and insisted that he meet and marry a white girl. Which he said he generally was never ever attracted to. It was a very interesting story.
 

MsSanz92

Well-Known Member
This reminds me of a sweet kid I met in grad school (he was in undergrad at an HBCU) who told us his story. Not a lot of light skinned blacks who are fluent in Spanish around. Anyways he was born in DR and came to the US at age 8. He says for a LONG time he never identified as black. He said NO one in his family is mixed with white. His family to his knowledge is black going back generations. But he said you'll rarely ever meet anyone from DR say they are black. He said his attendance at an HBCU changed that when some very dear AA guys he befriended got him straight. He said it was a no-brainer. But he feels he and others from DR with that attitude are brainwashed, they dissociate, and are projecting, and ignore history. His wife is a black AA. He got her to meet his family and they loved her of course....but thought she was SPECIAL. He said he had to explain to her that they had raised him and insisted that he meet and marry a white girl. Which he said he generally was never ever attracted to. It was a very interesting story.

I know some Dominicans like this who only considered themselves Black once they came to the US and became exposed either to AAs who got them together, and/or went to college and dealt with some blatant racial incident with White people. It's mind boggling how oppressive and cancerous colonialism and White supremacy has been to people across the African Diaspora. Many Dominicans don't call themselves Black because they think Black is a term exclusive to AA people when they're here, and due to their history with Haiti, Black is a term in the DR really only used to describe Haitians. It's a no brainer that most Dominicans have Black ancestry and/or would be considered Black in the American context of race. I've dated a couple of Dominican guys and either they and/or their families would blend into mine and vice versa, and that includes even the lighter skinned ones. Some people often act like I'm an outlier with my behavior like meeting a respectable attractive nice AA girl is hard/impossible to do. One Dominican guy told me to my face, "you speak really well compared to most Black girls in the Bronx." I was thinking to myself, you can't be this dumb... I swear some people really think that all AAs are hoodrats with no couth. I really hate the media for perpetuating this notion why is it so hard for people to see AAs as a multifaceted group there's over 40 million Black people in America obviously there's going to be as with any large group variation.
 

okange76

Well-Known Member
A lot of these biases are perpetrated by the media. We need to take control of our own messages. Programs on Africa show only the poor, destitute parts and the air waves are dominated by Feed the Children type pics, Programs on AA are more often than not reality TV drama and half naked video girls and gang bangers on the streets of Chicago and LA, programs on the Caribbean are all beaches with a focus on the euro sex trades hot beach boys for hire etc. Everyone looks at each other like at least I am not primitive or backward like the Africans, or hot blooded and promiscuous like the Caribbeans or a mouthy, lazy welfare layabout like the AA.

Once we are able to control our own messages, then I believe our relationships will be better. Instead of us fighting over the left over scraps at the bottom, we should be looking for ways to claw our way back to the top. All the other minorities are sitting on the sidelines, waiting for us to fight and then stepping on our backs and climbing over the fence before us after we have put in all the work.

Every time I attend an event, majority of the time, BP will gravitate towards each other regardless of nationality. Our attraction to each other as a people is strong. We need to use that to our benefit. That is why I use all my hair money at the Nigerian BSS in my neighborhood. My mother goes all the way to Dudley Station in the AA neighborhood to buy her clothes and makeup from the Black Small Business Owners. She might as well shop for makeup at Target, CVS or Walgreens 5 min away but she chooses not to. It's an hour commute by bus and train each way.

The day President Obama was elected reminded me of how much we are not enemies. So many non American blacks had parties, my family included and we danced until the wee morning that Saturday after the election. Kenya had a public holiday and people were dancing in the streets for days. Many Afro Brazilians that I know were in tears because they finally stopped feeling invisible. He looks just like them. If we can recapture that moment in blackness, we can prosper as a community.

We need to get the WM out of our homes and then get to work and rebuild.
 

Fine 4s

Well-Known Member
@ag00
Einh, I've heard disparaging comments about 'Blacks' meaning AAs growing up abroad.
The article is very familiar and def. speaks to her personal journey. Good luck to her.
@okange76 explained the phenomena too well.
 

LoveisYou

Well-Known Member
who? nobody cares. this is the equivalent of "i get made fun of for talking white" :rolleyes: i swear to you nobody cares about your special snowflake nationalism :lol:


lol, see I like it that you don't care, because you shouldn't....can you please school the folks who do...please?
 
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