Prosperity Sermons

[CurleeDST]

What is the point of a church requesting a copy of your W-2?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/12/27/prosperity.preachers.ap/index.html

 

[PaperClip]

What is the point of a church requesting a copy of your W-2?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/12/27/prosperity.preachers.ap/index.html

The operative word here is REQUEST.

And unless there's Bible to back up said request, keep it moving.

 

[CurleeDST]

I understand the operative word - my question is what is the purpose of requesting it?

The operative word here is REQUEST.

And unless there's Bible to back up said request, keep it moving.

 

[PaperClip]

I understand the operative word - my question is what is the purpose of requesting it?

That's a question for the folk who are requesting it. I believe I heard one explanation for this is to show folk who are new to tithing about what to tithe. Also, it is a way for a church to get a sense of the income brackets of their parishoners.

Please note that I am in NO WAY justifying such requests. I am merely speculating.

It isn't illegal to request such a thing. Sure, it's questionable, but not illegal.

 

[Southernbella.]

I understand the operative word - my question is what is the purpose of requesting it?

I think it's for budgeting purposes.

 

[CurleeDST]

It actually is a fairly rhetorical question and if no one understands the purpose then that is cool. Thought I would ask because I find it extremely suspect of a church to make that type of request (new in Christ or not).

I am not implying it is illegal. I AM stating it is suspect and none of their business! God knows the information and also knows our hearts so why does a church need it?

That's a question for the folk who are requesting it. I believe I heard one explanation for this is to show folk who are new to tithing about what to tithe. Also, it is a way for a church to get a sense of the income brackets of their parishoners.

Please note that I am in NO WAY justifying such requests. I am merely speculating.

It isn't illegal to request such a thing. Sure, it's questionable, but not illegal.

 

[tarheelgurl]

Dear tarheelgurl,

I hear what you're saying and I see why you're saying what you're saying. In advance, please forgive me if my following words come off as offensive to you but I must declare that Jesus Christ has already borne/carried away every sickness and disease. Our hope as Christians is not in man finding a cure, but our hope is in Jesus Christ. Part of the prosperity message is to live in divine healing, divine health, and divine life. I encourage you to hope in the Lord Jesus Christ read, meditate, and memorize these scriptures to build up your faith that health and healing can be yours in Jesus Christ.

More healing scriptures here: http://www.alighthouse.com/healingscripturesII.htm
http://www.alighthouse.com/christisthecure.htm
http://www.alighthouse.com/healingscriptures3.htm​

I am not offended RR and I will say that I don't put any cures for my disease in the hands of man. My problem isn't with the word itself but how it is delivered. There are people sitting in congregations every Sunday that are sick, disabled, whore mongers, liars, adulterers and theives. They need to know how, why and who will save them from their sins or deliver them from their pain.

Being told every Sunday to walk out on faith and get that house or car doesn't do anything for the sick or the sinners. There isn't anything in that message that we (or anyone else) can take away that will help us understand that everything is ordered and we will be alright. To some, a devine life is one with lots of money, a big house and namebrand car. To others, it could mean a happy marriage, kids and safe home. And to people like me, it simply means waking up with the ability to walk every day.

So, I get tired of those preachers teaching to the down trodden the things they think they want to hear instead of arming them with the tools they need to have peace in their lives.

 

[tarheelgurl]

I think it's for budgeting purposes.

What type of budgeting? If a church needs to know how much its members make to establish its budget, then IMHO it isn't properly serving those people.

 

[PaperClip]

It actually is a fairly rhetorical question and if no one understands the purpose then that is cool. Thought I would ask because I find it extremely suspect of a church to make that type of request (new in Christ or not).

I am not implying it is illegal. I AM stating it is suspect and none of their business! God knows the information and also knows our hearts so why does a church need it?

It's not even about what God knows, per se.... It's about HUMAN BEINGS being accountable and responsible for their choices and whether they sought the ALL-KNOWING GOD before they made a move. The Lord God Almighty is a GENTLEMAN. He is not going to INVADE where He is not INVITED.

For a lot of folk, it's easier to point the finger at the pastor (right or wrong) versus looking in the mirror and discerning where they made the wrong turn. Again, the Lord's mercy is everlasting.

Yes, there should be a level of trust between the pastor and the people. At least enough trust in that if a pastor asks for a W-2, you ought to be able to ASK the pastor DIRECTLY the purpose of such a request. If the response makes one sincerely uncomfortable, then maybe one should not sit under that pastor.

The prosperity message has gotten perverted. What this means is that there is an AUTHENTIC MESSAGE for prosperity in the Bible. The key for ANY BELIEVER is to immerse him/herself in that Bible to find out directly what the Word of God says concerning prosperity on this side of heaven.

We (globally) can nitpick about W-2 requests and all that but I say sincerely that these things are DISTRACTIONS to bigger issues in the Body of Christ. I add that the ENTIRE BODY is about to come under judgement and the situations with these six pastors are only the TIP of the iceberg.

Further, we would ALL DO WELL to make sure we are in alignment with the Lord before we point anywhere else. I'm not saying to ignore mess. We are to pray for our governmental and spiritual leaders.

The Lord has been leading me to read the book of Revelation and I KNOW it's the Lord because I wasn't TRYING (and still ain't, kinda!) to read that book.... I'm up to Chapter 10 where the last three trumpets are sounded and the three terrors are released. I pray to the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY that I am not here for all that....

So a dinky request for a W-2 is not on my top 10 list.

 

[CurleeDST]

Au contraire it most definitely IS about what God knows as we do not exalt or answer to our pastors but to God. Your response below appears to be making sweeping assumptions and perhaps you are incorporating previous discussions about this in this discussion, who knows.

It is only nit picking when one doesn't have a solid, bible-based rationale behind a particular action. We all are sinners who by the grace of God have been washed in His blood. My pastor is THE FIRST to say don't worship me or follow me! I am here giving you the Word as I am commanded to do. Don't follow a preacher, church or pastor. Follow GOD!

Prosperity teachings....however one wants to spin it should not sound the same sermon to sermon. God has blessed me with the power of discernment and I discern there is another spirit at work here and God has nothing to do with it. I am thankful I can see it.

It's not even about what God knows, per se.... It's about HUMAN BEINGS being accountable and responsible for their choices and whether they sought the ALL-KNOWING GOD before they made a move. The Lord God Almighty is a GENTLEMAN. He is not going to INVADE where He is not INVITED.

For a lot of folk, it's easier to point the finger at the pastor (right or wrong) versus looking in the mirror and discerning where they made the wrong turn. Again, the Lord's mercy is everlasting.

Yes, there should be a level of trust between the pastor and the people. At least enough trust in that if a pastor asks for a W-2, you ought to be able to ASK the pastor DIRECTLY the purpose of such a request. If the response makes one sincerely uncomfortable, then maybe one should not sit under that pastor.

The prosperity message has gotten perverted. What this means is that there is an AUTHENTIC MESSAGE for prosperity in the Bible. The key for ANY BELIEVER is to immerse him/herself in that Bible to find out directly what the Word of God says concerning prosperity on this side of heaven.

We (globally) can nitpick about W-2 requests and all that but I say sincerely that these things are DISTRACTIONS to bigger issues in the Body of Christ. I add that the ENTIRE BODY is about to come under judgement and the situations with these six pastors are only the TIP of the iceberg.

Further, we would ALL DO WELL to make sure we are in alignment with the Lord before we point anywhere else. I'm not saying to ignore mess. We are to pray for our governmental and spiritual leaders.

The Lord has been leading me to read the book of Revelation and I KNOW it's the Lord because I wasn't TRYING (and still ain't, kinda!) to read that book.... I'm up to Chapter 10 where the last three trumpets are sounded and the three terrors are released. I pray to the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY that I am not here for all that....

So a dinky request for a W-2 is not on my top 10 list.

 

[envybeauty]

I see it differently. I see a lot of these posts as saying if the person does not get X, then that person does not believe God loves them. As if that person is a child who believes if the child does not get a piece of candy, then they are not loved. As if the material blessings are extras that people are praying for.

I am not talking about childish things -- as in things that are of no consequence to the person's survival. I am talking about people who are requesting things that they need to survive in this world. As in the ability to put food on their table, the ability to have a means of transportation to get to a job to earn a living, the ability to not have to worry about their children's safety in a crime ridden neighborhood. God provides all our NEEDS (and He will even give us the desires of our hearts if we follow him) but first and foremost He provides all our NEEDS. People need a home. They need food. They need a safe environment. Thousands of people everyday are praying for God to fulfill their basic needs. Why are people then throwing it out there as if the person who is worrying about paying this month's rent is praying for a mansion? As if the person who has to beg friends/coworkers for a ride to work everyday is praying for a Bentley?

The testimonies that people provide on here every week reflect this -- that when times were rough, they were praying to GOd for relief. When they didn't know where they were going to get money to feed their kids, they prayed to God to help them. They were not praying for a million dollars on their doorstep. When they didn't know when their lights were going to finally be cut off, they prayed that God would help them find a way. I dare say anyone prayed for luxury items when they were struggling. Yet, people act like people are listening to prosperity sermons just a prayin and a hopin for things way beyond their means, when most are simply praying for their means.

I have listened to those sermons for many years and I really tuned in to them when I was struggling. People who turned me on to different preachers did so when I was at my lowest. Friends ordered tapes/books of these preachers and sent them to me to HELP me along the way. I have traveled out of my way to hear different ones speak in person. Not once did I come across a preacher say pray for a Bently, Lexus, etc. Not once did I ever believe that the sista crying beside me was crying because she didn't get her mansion on the hill. Not once did I ever hear someone get up with a testimony about $20s landing on their doorstep ..... I heard people testify about being cured, about going through their illnesses, about them almost being thrown out of their homes.....

I hear it differently.

I do not perceive it as being callous I perceive it as being immature in Christ when the only way we can recognize our blessings is when we receive material things as a manifestation if His love for us.

If I pray for something and God does not grant it to me am I not still His child? Am I not still blessed? Does that mean He is not God? NO .. it means it isn't His will!

I must acquiesce to that and remain humble! All of these material things can be TAKEN AWAY in the blink of an EYE.....are we NOT still the CHILD OF GOD and truly blessed?

Let's not get it confused...and for someone to think otherwise is immature in my eyes like saying the child's blessing at age 50. No advancement, progress or growth in Christ. I know He expects more of us.

 

[tarheelgurl]

Au contraire it most definitely IS about what God knows as we do not exalt or answer to our pastors but to God. Your response below appears to be making sweeping assumptions and perhaps you are incorporating previous discussions about this in this discussion, who knows.

It is only nit picking when one doesn't have a solid, bible-based rationale behind a particular action. We all are sinners who by the grace of God have been washed in His blood. My pastor is THE FIRST to say don't worship me or follow me! I am here giving you the Word as I am commanded to do. Don't follow a preacher, church or pastor. Follow GOD!

Prosperity teachings....however one wants to spin it should not sound the same sermon to sermon. God has blessed me with the power of discernment and I discern there is another spirit at work here and God has nothing to do with it. I am thankful I can see it.

Good post....

 

[PaperClip]

Au contraire it most definitely IS about what God knows as we do not exalt or answer to our pastors but to God.

Well, as I said earlier, God is omniscient. He knows EVERYTHING. He knows what we're going to do before we do it. He also gave us FREE WILL, so He wil not FORCE us.

Your response below appears to be making sweeping assumptions and perhaps you are incorporating previous discussions about this in this discussion, who knows.

I'm speaking directly to the content within this thread. Now it may be applicable to other threads on similar subject matter, but that speaks to the CONSISTENCY of MY PERSPECTIVE.

It is only nit picking when one doesn't have a solid, bible-based rationale behind a particular action. We all are sinners who by the grace of God have been washed in His blood. My pastor is THE FIRST to say don't worship me or follow me! I am here giving you the Word as I am commanded to do. Don't follow a preacher, church or pastor. Follow GOD!

I said that in my earlier post as well. I said that if one does not have Bible to back up said request (ANY request), then one should simply KEEP IT MOVIN'!

Prosperity teachings....however one wants to spin it should not sound the same sermon to sermon. God has blessed me with the power of discernment and I discern there is another spirit at work here and God has nothing to do with it. I am thankful I can see it.

And here's where you miss it: it's all about what you got and how you can see and discern instead of using your God-given gifts and talents to HELP OTHERS. Instead, it seems that it's easier to call other folk immature who might have gotten caught up, manipulated, abused, seduced, DISOBEDIENT....

When you discern another spirit at work, you're supposed to PRAY.... and should the Lord instruct you to speak on that thing, then that's what you do....

 

[envybeauty]

You were not the only one to use that term so my response applied to anyone who used it.

I know that some people are just that naiive but the overwhelming majority.......... I don't believe that to be true. It is because I believe that so FEW act the way you are thinking, that I pay them no mind. The people I know who pack the churches, convention centers, etc. are dealing with real issues and they are praying (some moved to the point of tears) over illness, addictions, financial HARDSHIPS, the breakdown of familial relationships, etc. Not because they bought a BMW today and cannot afford next month's payment. Even for those who have X and cannot pay, it is often due to a loss of job, a reduction in hours, clients, orders, etc. where less is now coming into the home, etc. so not only are they at risk of losing X, but they now have to make other changes (keep Jr. home to go to community college instead of sending him away to the prestigious school where he was accepted and where he would have more job/internship opportunities, better professors, better classrooms, etc. and pull missy out of ballet, tap, or even tutoring because they can no longer afford it). People who are making change after change in their homes while wondering how long they can go on the lower income before the rug is completely pulled out from underneath them.

I guess I know only because I have been there and know the story behind so many people's stories.

nvy, were you referring to me, dear?

I said that mrselle was thinking like a mature Christian. There is a such thing as spiritual maturity. I stand by my statement that some are led in the wrong direction, and I've seen it happen to some of my friends.

I learn something new each time I read the bible as well. Any Christian should be able to attest to this. But the more we learn, the more we grow. This is not to say that newer believers are any less valuable, but there can be advice given by those who are seasoned--it happens here all the time and I am grateful for the advice given to me.

I was not saying that you cannot pray for prosperity. God wants us to live life in abundance. And God wants to supply our needs. When we are in need, we should turn to our Almighty father for help in this matter, by ALL means.

Girl, I know that people who are going through struggles aren't necessarily praying for status cars and mansions. But I was referring to those who are not being wise with what God has provided them with. The ones getting an expensive home without the means to pay because " God will give them the money to stay in the house" when their current house was just fine and met their expectations. I'm talking of the ones who are looking at high status items as their gauge on how much God loves them.

I don't think we were on the same page. I'm not simply stating that all that listen to Creflo are led astray. But there are those who become so caught up in the message, that they don't know that they've already prospered. Please don't think that I am telling folks not to want their daily financial needs met.

In love,
Mel

 

[tarheelgurl]

And here's where you miss it: it's all about what you got and how you can see and discern instead of using your God-given gifts and talents to HELP OTHERS. Instead, it seems that it's easier to call other folk immature who might have gotten caught up, manipulated, abused, seduced, DISOBEDIENT....

When you discern another spirit at work, you're supposed to PRAY.... and should the Lord instruct you to speak on that thing, then that's what you do....

That's a good point. A lot of people are led by preachers into directions that do not neccesarily lead to Christ and his teaching. From my own experiences, I have seen pastors in churches mangle the words in the Bible to fit their own agenda.....usually to get more money out of the congregation.

 

[envybeauty]

To whom do you attribute them buying this new house? Which of the prosperity pastors do they follow?

I am witnessing firsthand a couple I admired who walked closely with Christ. They got into their last home in between jobs, without the level of scrutiny as most and God led them to where they were. They decided to move into a much larger home not because God led them there but for status. They admitted it - their last home did not show well enough for them and the people they were planning to entertain (high society of Baltimore).

Well, they have gone THROUGH it to get into the house, trying to get out of the deal, ending up having to take the house and not being able to successfully sell the last house - so they have 2 major home mortgates on the books. It hasn't been easy and while I believe God will bring them through this - I believe it won't be without a lesson first b/c I do not believe this was His plan. Their last home was gorgeous. Their new home is AWESOME but she is not happy - b/c it wasn't the way they wanted it.

That is a perfect example of people believing in prosperity teachings but that may not be God's will and if it isn't doesn't mean God does not love you and you are not blessed!

I am sick of prosperity teachings b/c those who are not mature enough to discern the difference can easily get it confused.

 

[Southernbella.]

What type of budgeting? If a church needs to know how much its members make to establish its budget, then IMHO it isn't properly serving those people.

I agree. I think you see this happen in churches where they want to do a lot of building and expansion. They say God gave them a vision for where the church is going to go, but when the finances don't pan out, they have to start looking at the budget and figuring out how to pay all those bills.

 

[Aveena]

The promises of prosperity are true and scriptual. The world itsself has exercised them and profited from God's principles on increase for centuries and they always will. Look at Luke 16, regarding the unjust servant.

This man about to lose his job, went about and gained favor from his employer's clients, and though it was an underhanded act for him to do so (as he was looking out for himself), Jesus remarked that the children of the world are smarter than the children of light. Meaning that the world KNOWS the system and they are working it and profiting from it. However, God's children are not and therefore prosper not.

Here's the problem: While it is NOT a sin to prosper, it has been taken out of context where many preachers have gotten caught up in the 'blessings' and not remaining focused on the Kingdom of God.

Why keep asking God for something that He has already given you? Here's the thing. When one's rent, mortgage, car payment or whatever is due, one does not hesitate to put in a prayer request for it. Why go through that when God has already made it availble to us to have our needs met BEYOND what we could ever ask or think.

There's a fine line here....why keep asking for what you already have been promised by God. If the world is getting blessed financially, how much more the children of God, so that the needs of the ministries are met, as well as the 'children' of God within, and to continue to spread God's message throughout the world.

The reason the Church and God's children are so 'broke' is because of the 'rejection' of God's promises to us. HAD 'we', the Church accepted the promises of prosperity in the beginning, we would not be a servant to the world.

For it's the world who dictates our airwaves...there's more sin and garbage in the media than God's word. In comparison, how many wholesome shows, movies, music and radio programs are full of the devil? 99%. Why is that? They have the money, to control it. And we are the ones 'funding' them to do so.

For every nickel and dime that the Church pays for their airwaves, utilities, phone service, groceries, family vacations, air travel, cars, clothing, restaurants, even a stick of gum, etc., goes straight into the bank rolls of those in the world to continue their increase, to support THEIR causes and choices, and compiles our decrease. Yet, we the Church still struggles to make ends meet. For we do not have money control! We do not have the prosperity in our hands to overcome the world.

Yes............we do have prayer and Bibles and songs and hymms, and halleiluias; AND they are powerful...indeed! Yet we do not control the world's system...they still control us. Why? Because they ran with what we rejected...God's kingdom principles for prospering in this world financially.

Prosperity is not a sin. Rejecting it is....

Yes Maam!!! I learned this as a child and KNOW it to be true.... amen

and this is why I don't watch TV so that my mind does not get filled with the "things" that others say I should have.... with all the advertisizing and subtle hints thrown in as a lifestyle I should be living.. I live the lifestyle God has for me to live ... yes I've made mistakes and learned lessons but all with the joy in knowing that I will be ok and settle into what God has for me.

 

[PaperClip]

That's a good point. A lot of people are led by preachers into directions that do not neccesarily lead to Christ and his teaching. From my own experiences, I have seen pastors in churches mangle the words in the Bible to fit their own agenda.....usually to get more money out of the congregation.

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

(same scripture reference) "If anyone tries to flag you down, calling out, 'Here's the Messiah!' or points, 'There he is!' don't fall for it. Fake Messiahs and lying preachers are going to pop up everywhere. Their impressive credentials and dazzling performances will pull the wool over the eyes of even those who ought to know better. But I've given you fair warning." (The Message)

Recognize that for there to be FALSE CHRISTS and PROPHETS, there has to be a TRUE CHRIST, a TRUE PROPHET, A TRUE KING, the LORD JESUS CHRIST!

 

[Southernbella.]

Au contraire it most definitely IS about what God knows as we do not exalt or answer to our pastors but to God. Your response below appears to be making sweeping assumptions and perhaps you are incorporating previous discussions about this in this discussion, who knows.

It is only nit picking when one doesn't have a solid, bible-based rationale behind a particular action. We all are sinners who by the grace of God have been washed in His blood. My pastor is THE FIRST to say don't worship me or follow me! I am here giving you the Word as I am commanded to do. Don't follow a preacher, church or pastor. Follow GOD!

Prosperity teachings....however one wants to spin it should not sound the same sermon to sermon. God has blessed me with the power of discernment and I discern there is another spirit at work here and God has nothing to do with it. I am thankful I can see it.

I guess you (general) can call discernment nit-picking if you (general) want, but the truth is, when God shows you something, and you KNOW it's God, then you have to make a decision. There are always going to be people who don't see it the same. God showed me something a year before he showed my mother, and she argued me up and down about it until I left it alone. God showed her a year later. She called me out of the blue and said that she felt someone had lifted a veil from her eyes.

I know there are people who saw it years before I did. Everyone is at a different place in their walk, so I think it's logical that people are going to receive this thread in many different ways.

 

[envybeauty]

I do not believe everyone has to go through a trial to prosper. That said, I do not believe God wills it for everyone to go through a trial.

The easiest example is child bearing. A lot of married women desire to have a child. Some have a child around the time they plan to have one. A friend of mine got married, she and her husband then desired to wait until they were around 30 before having any children. Two months after she turned 30 (and five years after being married) she got pregnant with her first. Another couple tried for many many years. Through they could not have one it had been that long. Right before they were about to look into fertility treatments she got pregnant. Another waited many many years. Went through expensive fertility treatments. After finishing the treatments (that did not lead to pregnancy), she ended up pregnant with her first child in her early 40s without any medical assistance.

Do some go through a trial before getting pregnant? Yes. Does one have to go through a trial before having a child? No. Do some women bred like rabbits? Yes. Do they ever consult with God before getting pregnant? No.

What I am explaining in the prosperity sermons I hear or have listened to, they speak of all the materialistic things you will get by being faithful but they do not balance it with the things you must go through in order to be faithful. The tests, trials and tribulations.

My friends did not consult with God first when they made this move and they know this and understand why they are going through what they are going through. I know God will bring them through it but not before they learn this lesson.

I do not say constantly preach gloom and doom but let's understand God will bring you through it and it is an immature Christian who thinks the only way God displays His love is with material rewards like money, big houses, helicopters, the Lexus in the driveway, etc.

He is so much more awesome than that.

 

[envybeauty]

What is the point of a church requesting a copy of your W-2?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/12/27/prosperity.preachers.ap/index.html

I understand the operative word - my question is what is the purpose of requesting it?

It actually is a fairly rhetorical question and if no one understands the purpose then that is cool. Thought I would ask because I find it extremely suspect of a church to make that type of request (new in Christ or not).

I am not implying it is illegal. I AM stating it is suspect and none of their business! God knows the information and also knows our hearts so why does a church need it?

why bother asking if you really did not want others to respond. If you find it suspect, say so at the outset. i agree -- it is suspect and unnecessary for a general request (as opposed to a group/individual request to help people understand how to tithe as pointed out by RR).

 

[Southernbella.]

I see it differently. I see a lot of these posts as saying if the person does not get X, then that person does not believe God loves them. As if that person is a child who believes if the child does not get a piece of candy, then they are not loved. As if the material blessings are extras that people are praying for.

I am not talking about childish things -- as in things that are of no consequence to the person's survival. I am talking about people who are requesting things that they need to survive in this world. As in the ability to put food on their table, the ability to have a means of transportation to get to a job to earn a living, the ability to not have to worry about their children's safety in a crime ridden neighborhood. God provides all our NEEDS (and He will even give us the desires of our hearts if we follow him) but first and foremost He provides all our NEEDS. People need a home. They need food. They need a safe environment. Thousands of people everyday are praying for God to fulfill their basic needs. Why are people then throwing it out there as if the person who is worrying about paying this month's rent is praying for a mansion? As if the person who has to beg friends/coworkers for a ride to work everyday is praying for a Bentley?

The testimonies that people provide on here every week reflect this -- that when times were rough, they were praying to GOd for relief. When they didn't know where they were going to get money to feed their kids, they prayed to God to help them. They were not praying for a million dollars on their doorstep. When they didn't know when their lights were going to finally be cut off, they prayed that God would help them find a way. I dare say anyone prayed for luxury items when they were struggling. Yet, people act like people are listening to prosperity sermons just a prayin and a hopin for things way beyond their means, when most are simply praying for their means.

I have listened to those sermons for many years and I really tuned in to them when I was struggling. People who turned me on to different preachers did so when I was at my lowest. Friends ordered tapes/books of these preachers and sent them to me to HELP me along the way. I have traveled out of my way to hear different ones speak in person. Not once did I come across a preacher say pray for a Bently, Lexus, etc. Not once did I ever believe that the sista crying beside me was crying because she didn't get her mansion on the hill. Not once did I ever hear someone get up with a testimony about $20s landing on their doorstep ..... I heard people testify about being cured, about going through their illnesses, about them almost being thrown out of their homes.....

I hear it differently.

I think you have a good point.

Ok, there are working poor people who do everything they can and just can't get ahead. What good does it do them to hear every Sunday that "God wants you to have that house! He wants you to have that car! He wants you to be a millionaire! Just sow that seed! Name it and claim it!"

That does NOTHING. I sat under that kind of thing for years and still saw people stay living check to check and struggling.

To be fair, we had financial seminars and things like that, but again, people who don't have any extra can't afford to invest in this or sow into that.

I don't know...I understand why the black church in particular talks about gaining wealth because the black church has always been about empowerment in all areas.

Frankly, I don't think the poor should be paying tithes because that's not Biblical. Maybe starting there, we can start helping people get out of that hole. Instead of using the money of the poor to finance church expansion, we need to be helping the DIRECTLY. Maybe instead of buying the pastor a Bentley, we could buy housing for ten single mothers. Maybe instead of putting marble floors in the church, we could put five undecucated men through college.

 

[PaperClip]

I do not believe everyone has to go through a trial to prosper. That said, I do not believe God wills it for everyone to go through a trial.

1 Peter 1:6-8: (Amplified Bible)
[You should] be exceedingly glad on this account, though now for a little while you may be distressed by trials and suffer temptations, So that [the genuineness] of your faith may be tested, [your faith] which is infinitely more precious than the perishable gold which is tested and purified by fire. [This proving of your faith is intended] to redound to [your] praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) is revealed. Without having seen Him, you love Him; though you do not [even] now see Him, you believe in Him and exult and thrill with inexpressible and glorious (triumphant, heavenly) joy.

1 Peter 4:12-13

Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
Tests and trials are part of the faith walk. Tests and trials have manifold purposes: to build our faith, to manifest God's glory. That's where TESTIMONIES come forth... victory through a TEST. We overcome by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of our TESTIMONY (Revelation 12:11). Others are encouraged by our testimonies because they testify that if they went through it, so can I.

 

[CurleeDST]

I see what you are saying. My example IS exemplifying those who believe if they do not get what they want, when they want it, they are not blessed or haven't been blessed. And they do exist and are out there. And the sermons I hear of do not speak specifically to a Bentley but they MOST CERTAINLY speak of getting a new car, home, job, etc. Tune into Jamal Bryant this Sunday - I can almost quote his script.

I see it differently. I see a lot of these posts as saying if the person does not get X, then that person does not believe God loves them. As if that person is a child who believes if the child does not get a piece of candy, then they are not loved. As if the material blessings are extras that people are praying for.

I am not talking about childish things -- as in things that are of no consequence to the person's survival. I am talking about people who are requesting things that they need to survive in this world. As in the ability to put food on their table, the ability to have a means of transportation to get to a job to earn a living, the ability to not have to worry about their children's safety in a crime ridden neighborhood. God provides all our NEEDS (and He will even give us the desires of our hearts if we follow him) but first and foremost He provides all our NEEDS. People need a home. They need food. They need a safe environment. Thousands of people everyday are praying for God to fulfill their basic needs. Why are people then throwing it out there as if the person who is worrying about paying this month's rent is praying for a mansion? As if the person who has to beg friends/coworkers for a ride to work everyday is praying for a Bentley?

The testimonies that people provide on here every week reflect this -- that when times were rough, they were praying to GOd for relief. When they didn't know where they were going to get money to feed their kids, they prayed to God to help them. They were not praying for a million dollars on their doorstep. When they didn't know when their lights were going to finally be cut off, they prayed that God would help them find a way. I dare say anyone prayed for luxury items when they were struggling. Yet, people act like people are listening to prosperity sermons just a prayin and a hopin for things way beyond their means, when most are simply praying for their means.

I have listened to those sermons for many years and I really tuned in to them when I was struggling. People who turned me on to different preachers did so when I was at my lowest. Friends ordered tapes/books of these preachers and sent them to me to HELP me along the way. I have traveled out of my way to hear different ones speak in person. Not once did I come across a preacher say pray for a Bently, Lexus, etc. Not once did I ever believe that the sista crying beside me was crying because she didn't get her mansion on the hill. Not once did I ever hear someone get up with a testimony about $20s landing on their doorstep ..... I heard people testify about being cured, about going through their illnesses, about them almost being thrown out of their homes.....

I hear it differently.

 

[CurleeDST]

I do think it makes sense to have ministries which empower and teach people how to manage their finances, manage their marriage, manage their lives.

The sermons on this subject I have watched specifically speak to all of the things people will get but do not speak to what people will have to do in order to realize them. The types of trials they may be put through. I think that does people a tremendous disservice.

I think you have a good point.

Ok, there are working poor people who do everything they can and just can't get ahead. What good does it do them to hear every Sunday that "God wants you to have that house! He wants you to have that car! He wants you to be a millionaire! Just sow that seed! Name it and claim it!"

That does NOTHING. I sat under that kind of thing for years and still saw people stay living check to check and struggling.

To be fair, we had financial seminars and things like that, but again, people who don't have any extra can't afford to invest in this or sow into that.

I don't know...I understand why the black church in particular talks about gaining wealth because the black church has always been about empowerment in all areas.

Frankly, I don't think the poor should be paying tithes because that's not Biblical. Maybe starting there, we can start helping people get out of that hole. Instead of using the money of the poor to finance church expansion, we need to be helping the DIRECTLY. Maybe instead of buying the pastor a Bentley, we could buy housing for ten single mothers. Maybe instead of putting marble floors in the church, we could put five undecucated men through college.

 

[CurleeDST]

Also, do people have opinions about churches who may not provide a loan to a church member if that member has not tithed to the church or will pull the member's tithe statement before agreeing to marry them?

A friend of mine experienced this in TN and she was highly offended when the church came back and told her mom they would not lend her money based on her tithe statement.

And ladies, I know discussions about religion are very personal so feel free to share or not share what you feel comfortable with and let's try not to get defensive, snarky or impatient with each other with this discussion (I know that goes without saying but thought I would state it anyway). My purpose for bringing this up is not to invoke negativity but to have a healthy discussion about it because it is something that has become more visible to me and thought it would be interesting to discuss.

 

[envybeauty]

So what of the ones who did not struggle to get their job, their home, their child, etc.? What happened to them? Why not trial for them if it is necessary as part of the faith walk?

There exist today those who struggle for x, and those who did not struggle for the same x.

1 Peter 1:6-8: (Amplified Bible)
[You should] be exceedingly glad on this account, though now for a little while you may be distressed by trials and suffer temptations, So that [the genuineness] of your faith may be tested, [your faith] which is infinitely more precious than the perishable gold which is tested and purified by fire. [This proving of your faith is intended] to redound to [your] praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) is revealed. Without having seen Him, you love Him; though you do not [even] now see Him, you believe in Him and exult and thrill with inexpressible and glorious (triumphant, heavenly) joy.

1 Peter 4:12-13

Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
Tests and trials are part of the faith walk. Tests and trials have manifold purposes: to build our faith, to manifest God's glory. That's where TESTIMONIES come forth... victory through a TEST. We overcome by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of our TESTIMONY (Revelation 12:11). Others are encouraged by our testimonies because they testify that if they went through it, so can I.

 

[Southernbella.]

Also, do people have opinions about churches who may not provide a loan to a church member if that member has not tithed to the church or will pull the member's tithe statement before agreeing to marry them?

A friend of mine experienced this in TN and she was highly offended when the church came back and told her mom they would not lend her money based on her tithe statement.

.

It's well withing a church's right to do that, but it's not biblical.

 

[PaperClip]

Also, do people have opinions about churches who may not provide a loan to a church member if that member has not tithed to the church or will pull the member's tithe statement before agreeing to marry them?

A friend of mine experienced this in TN and she was highly offended when the church came back and told her mom they would not lend her money based on her tithe statement.

And ladies, I know discussions about religion are very personal so feel free to share or not share what you feel comfortable with and let's try not to get defensive, snarky or impatient with each other with this discussion (I know that goes without saying but thought I would state it anyway). My purpose for bringing this up is not to invoke negativity but to have a healthy discussion about it because it is something that has become more visible to me and thought it would be interesting to discuss.

The church should not LEND to anyone.

Hopefully a church is seeking the Lord for direction about such matters on a case-by-case basis and seek to help. But the members should not be sacrificed for someone who is not a member, or, particularly if they belong to another church.

And with regard to the point about being defensive, snarky, or impatient: one disadvantage of the internet is that it is a ONE-DIMENSIONAL communication channel. There does not exist the combination of verbal tone and non-verbals (body language). Sometimes my passion gets misinterpreted as condescension or malice. I sincerely say here that it is NEITHER of those. Yes, I can use strong words, but I don't call anybody out of their name or demean their character. When a conversation and courageous conversation happens from a place of love and not malice, we're helping one another.

The Bible says "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. (Proverbs 27:17). In other words, through our (collective) dialogue, we learn and grow stronger in the faith and we grow stronger to discern and combat contrary spirits.